Dread Necro questions

[Grayson01]

Okay a few questions abou the Dread Necromancer. 1) since summon undead is a conjuration spell does Augment Summing also work with SUD? 2) does the Dread's class augment undead features work with SUD or just with created undead? 3) if so would it stack with AS? 4) does SUD count against the number of undead a Dread can control? 5) what are some good devotion, reserve, and general feats for a Dread? 6) can a Dread take divine feats that rebuke undead is a prerequisite?

[ArqArturo]

I can only reply the first one.

Yes, Augment Summoning does improve your summoned undead, but only Strength, since they have no Constitution scores.

[Grayson01]

I can only reply the first one.

Yes, Augment Summoning does improve your summoned undead, but only Strength, since they have no Constitution scores.

Okay cool thanks that's what I thought as well. I also found the spell online so answers the question about if it counts against total undead controled: no.

[OldTrees1]

1) Yes
2) No. Just with created undead (by any means of creation)
3) Typed bonuses overlap(don't stack), untyped bonuses stack(unless they are from the same source).
4) No. Summoned monsters are in addition to your Rebuke Undead, Command Undead(Spell), Animate Dead(Spell), Animate Dread Warrior(Spell) and Leadership control pools.
5) Feats
Fell Animate = No cost to animate undead
Undead Leadership
Arcane Disciple[Renewal Domain](Feat) + Touch of Healing(Reserve Feat) = Heal all the things for free! (And fix up your allies after they play pattycake with your Wights)
Arcane Thesis
Craft Contingent Spell
Versatile Spellcaster
6) Yes, but Divine Metamagic only works on Divine spells (which you don't have) and the rest are lack luster.


Extra:
Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)
New Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1096381)
Least Rod of Chain Spell + Command Undead(Spell) = :smallbiggrin: All the skeletons/zombies you will ever need.

[Dr. Azkur]

[...]Arcane Thesis[...]


Which spell(s) in particular?

[Cloud]

For Arcane Thesis I hear Enervation is good. And gets plain silly with a slaymate.

Empower is +2, Maximize is +3, a Black Lore of Moil spell is +0, Quicken is +4, so with arcane thesis for -1, and a slaymate for -1, so the quicken version is a 5th level spell, 6th if you don't let arcane thesis drop a metamagic below +0 (Slaymate still should). The non-quicken version is well, 3rd level technically, but I don't know any DM that would let that fly, but still 4th level. Add split ray or whatever else for taste. And perhaps be ready to dodge books and/or have Slaymate as well as arcane thesis not let something drop below +0.

I'm maybe not allowed a Slaymate in any game I play in now.

Anyway, general feats, they're bland but spell focus necromancy and greater spell focus necromancy does literally effect nearly every spell you cast. Sickening Grasp is a nice reserve feat as you touch things a lot, and hey, free caster level for necromancy spells. Imperious Command at 12th level if you pick up Aura of Terror with advanced learning and you're good at intimidate is just mean. Oh and Tomb Tainted Soul should be obvious, if you're not undead.

[Taelas]

6) Yes, but Divine Metamagic only works on Divine spells (which you don't have) and the rest are lack luster.

Which is why you take 10 levels in Rainbow Servant and get Cleric spell access (spells not on the Sorc/Wiz list are explicitly divine).

Add another source of Turn attempts and go to town with even more DMM: Persistent self-buffs than normal clerics can get -- since Cha is your casting stat.

[OldTrees1]

Which is why you take 10 levels in Rainbow Servant and get Cleric spell access (spells not on the Sorc/Wiz list are explicitly divine).

Add another source of Turn attempts and go to town with even more DMM: Persistent self-buffs than normal clerics can get -- since Cha is your casting stat.

Meh. By that level the benefit of adding Divine Metamagic is much less.

[Taelas]

There're enough cool cleric buffs to make it worth it even that late in the game.

[OldTrees1]

There're enough cool cleric buffs to make it worth it even that late in the game.

Worth 10 levels, 3 feats and reducing your Rebuke pool?
For that price I think it would only be worth it for people that changed their minds and wanted to play a Cleric instead of a Dread Necromancer.

[HammeredWharf]

For feats, Corpsecrafter is really useful, as is Nimble Bones. Both can be found in Libris Mortis.

I'd not recommend Rainbow Servant. As OldTrees already pointed out, if you want to be a Cleric, be a Cleric.

Edit: Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584)

[Xerlith]

If you want to use DMM on your Dread Necro spells, the Southern Magician feat comes to the rescue.

[Grayson01]

I was reading a handbook on Necros and it says that the Dread's negative energy burst hurts the Dread that doesn't sound right, it sounds like a inaccurate reading?

[Malroth]

unless you're a toumb tainted soul or have turned yourself into a Necropolitian (and gotten the benefits from your corpsecrafter feats in the process)

[Alex12]

I was reading a handbook on Necros and it says that the Dread's negative energy burst hurts the Dread that doesn't sound right, it sounds like a inaccurate reading?

Per RAW, it does. This is part of the reason that every single Dread Necromancer takes Tomb-Tainted soul or goes undead (Necropolitan is very popular), so it heals them instead.


unless you're a toumb tainted soul or have turned yourself into a Necropolitian (and gotten the benefits from your corpsecrafter feats in the process)
Actually, Corpsecrafter doesn't work on Necropolitans, since they're not created by a necromancy spell.

[Grayson01]

Okay so tomb tainted soul level 1 feat got it helps with that decision. What book LM?

[Alex12]

Okay so tomb tainted soul level 1 feat got it helps with that decision. What book LM?

Yeah. Really, Dread Necromancer is perfectly viable using nothing but Core, HoH, and LM.
Oh, and when you pick Tomb-Tainted Soul, it means you also get at-will low-level self-healing by touching yourself.

[OldTrees1]

Okay so tomb tainted soul level 1 feat got it helps with that decision. What book LM?

Yes it is found in Libris Mortis (as is Necropolitian which is often considered a better option)

[Grayson01]

With tomb-tainted Soul couldn't you heal yourself with Charnel Touch?

[Alex12]

With tomb-tainted Soul couldn't you heal yourself with Charnel Touch?

Yes. This is the other part of the reason for all non-undead DNs to take this feat.

[Taelas]

I'd not recommend Rainbow Servant. As OldTrees already pointed out, if you want to be a Cleric, be a Cleric.

The Dread Rainbow is quite a bit better than an ordinary cleric, since it is a list-caster. You get access to all cleric spells, cast spontaneously. The DN capstone happens at level 8, anyway, so you don't really lose much from going Rainbow Servant.


Worth 10 levels, 3 feats and reducing your Rebuke pool?
For that price I think it would only be worth it for people that changed their minds and wanted to play a Cleric instead of a Dread Necromancer.

Let's see, the ability to cast all cleric spells spontaneously, Persisting the cleric only buffs that are interesting, in exchange for three feats and ten levels of full casting that costs nothing of consequence?

Yes. Yes, it is easily worth it, for any DN.

[OldTrees1]

Let's see, the ability to cast all cleric spells spontaneously, Persisting the cleric only buffs that are interesting, in exchange for three feats and ten levels of full casting that costs nothing of consequence?

Yes. Yes, it is easily worth it, for any DN.

Careful of the claims you make. Your hyperbolic claim is provably false(see counter example 1:Me). Many Dread Necromancers would rather have 10 levels of real class features(you know, from thematically appropriate classes) than get shoehorned into playing a class they did not pick to play. If you want to play a cleric and use DN => RS as a way to be a spontaneous cleric, that is fine. But please do not pretend that it is worthwhile for every player that chose DN for DN and not to pretend to be a Cleric.

[Gemini476]

Careful of the claims you make. Your hyperbolic claim is provably false(see counter example 1:Me). Many Dread Necromancers would rather have 10 levels of real class features(you know, from thematically appropriate classes) than get shoehorned into playing a class they did not pick to play. If you want to play a cleric and use DN => RS as a way to be a spontaneous cleric, that is fine. But please do not pretend that it is worthwhile for every player that chose DN for DN and not to pretend to be a Cleric.

The Dread Rainbow/Rainbow Warsnake/[Whatever the Beguiler version is] is arguably better than a straight Cleric. After level 14, that is, when you're a full-list caster with access to the entire Cleric list in addition to three domains (four with a feat). Or level 16 without Versatile Spellcaster+Heighten Spell, but you get my point.
At that point the only things the Cleric has over you is earlier spell access (moot with VS) and the ability to choose domains. Oh, and any prestige classes they may have picked up, but you probably have a few as well.
There are plenty of reasons to go Rainbow Servant rather than Cleric if you are at a high enough level. Especially since you get Rebuke Undead.

Honestly, though, look at what levels 9-20 give the DN. Getting Craft Wondrous Item at level 19 is just embarrassing, and being a Necropolitan stops most of those other features from being useful at all. You're better off grabbing a full casting prestige class after the capstone of DN (level 8).

[OldTrees1]

The Dread Rainbow/Rainbow Warsnake/[Whatever the Beguiler version is] is arguably better than a straight Cleric.
No argument there. However it plays like a Cleric, not like a DN.


Honestly, though, look at what levels 9-20 give the DN. Getting Craft Wondrous Item at level 19 is just embarrassing, and being a Necropolitan stops most of those other features from being useful at all. You're better off grabbing a full casting prestige class after the capstone of DN (level 8).
Again no argument. Increasing class level for Undead Mastery only becomes relevant if you fear Greater Dispel Magic or have triple digit Charisma.
However some full casting prestige classes (like Red Wizard for early 40cl via Circle Magic) improve DN casting while still playing like a DN.