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Cikomyr
2014-05-08, 10:41 PM
Hi there,

My friends and I are going to kickoff a new Vampire game, within nWoD. Really looking forward to it, and we seem to have a very varied set of ideas for our characters, so we seem we won't step on each other's toes.

One wanna play a celebrity poker player (agility/trickery)
Another wants to play a lounge singer (charisma/presence)

I wanted to play some sort of financier, and we developped this idea where we could have our own little private casino so we could all operate there. Thinking deeper about my char concept, I realized I could make it work if I had ties with the Organized Crime, and our little casino/talent management was a money laundry operation/front for a criminal organization.

I played around about what sort of nationality I'd make my character, and I elected "Russian" might be fun. "Russian Gangster/Businessman" is a sweet archetype to play a Ventrue. The game will be set in Montreal (who has little ties to the Russia mafia), so my GM and I came up with the idea that the Russia mafia sent me in Montreal to be a beachhead for their operations here, and probably do some money laundering/refuge for sticky associates/generic crime stuff.

But then, a very (evil) fact struck me regarding the nature of most criminal dealing the Russian underworld has with the Occident. A big part of their criminal activities relates to human trafficking. Usually related to prostitution.

Now, I don't wanna roleplay a Pimp. But being the main "contact point" probably means the traffic would go through me to get into Montreal, and suddenly I had this idea about me building up a herd of blood vessels that way, and maybe getting myself a reputation for being some sort of Refined Blood Connaisseur/Provider among Vampiric High Society. After all, I'd have first pick on all people coming from the Motherland.

Now, thing is, I have zero idea how human trafficking actually works. I have no idea if the organization in the home country just receive a lump sum for the ladies they deliver, or if they keep tab on them. Since it's more than likely that a few of the... victims might "disappear" (given as tribute or boon), the ramification of what I owe my Russian bosses might impact my choice of gameplay.

Has anybody here happened to have studied the topic? Or maybe seen a documentary about it? I understand it's a reality that's pretty abhorrent and horrible, and I hope i am not offending anyone by considering including it in a RP game.

Blightedmarsh
2014-05-08, 11:30 PM
I know that a lot of these people want to immigrate but lack the means to do so legally. Traffickers charge them or put them in debt to transport them. Once they arrive they are put to work to "pay off" the debt. They can't go to the police about the abuse or exploitation because they would risk being deported.

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 08:08 AM
*facepalm* off course. I completely forgot about that aspect.

But I am just wondering on the relation between the criminal organization in the home nation (Home-Mafia) and the one in the immigrating nation (Developed-Mafia). I'd guess the D-Mafia is paying a lump sum to the H-Mafia representing the amount to "reimburse". That amount is obviously in excess of the amount actually paid up by the H-Mafia. The D-Mafia then generates revenue with the victim on the pretense of "reimbursing" the paid costs, and they also generate a profit on that.

I am trying to understand the cash flows and profit margins involved. Criminal activity has very fat margins to begin with, so I am wondering what would be my financial obligation to running a Refined Blood Rack.

Red Fel
2014-05-09, 08:37 AM
So you want to run a criminal organization? And you want my advice? Ugh, fine. <Brando>Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in.</Brando>

Okay. First things first. The basics of any mafia-type organization are loyalty, organization and operations.

Loyalty: Never trust outsiders. Even a person who has earned the trust of the organization will rarely become a member in full standing without the sponsorship of a reasonably respected member. So if your character is a member of this organization, he's likely to have a personal "in" - most likely, family or neighbors - with a high-ranking member. (Or, you know, have Dominated him or something.)

Organization: The mafia-style organizations have a particular structure and common modus operandi that's fairly corporate in style. First, start with a given project (see Operations, next). Next, drive all competition out of that market, and take it over. Finally, consider expanding into new projects, and repeat. It's all very civilized, but with guns.

Operations: This is the part you're talking about. How does one engage in human trafficking? Disclaimer: Human trafficking is illegal and immoral I strongly advise anyone considering participating in it in real life to not do so. With that out of the way, here's how the Russian mob would do it.

Step 1: Find the vulnerable. Vulnerable people can be exploited. These are usually young, desperate and/or terrified women in Eastern Europe. Bonus points if they are pregnant, you'll see why. Promise them salvation in the western hemisphere - for a fee. Usually, the mob (being well-connected in its home country) will have "scouts" in Eastern Europe to perform this task. This is what you're calling the "home mafia" in your example - in reality, they're not two separate entities, but two parts of a cohesive whole. It's not that one pays the other for services - the two have various reciprocal arrangements, because it's all staying within one larger pseudo-corporate entity.

Step 2: Collect the fee. Smuggle them west.

Step 3: Take the child. It is now your hostage. The mother will do whatever you want. Collecting a fee for getting her across the Atlantic is one thing, but this is an investment. The child you can sell on the black market, convincing the mother that it's for the best.

Step 4: "Employ" the mother. Remind her that you're the only one she can trust. If she goes to the police, she'll be deported and her child will be taken from its happy home. So she has to do what you say, and generate profit for you. Profit, in this context, meaning blood and/or money.
In essence, here are the sources of income for this transaction: One lump sum to transport the victim. One lump sum (or several payments) to sell the child. Continuous payments for the victim's services. Optional: Blackmail payments from the victim's family back home for her safety, or "to maintain her quality of life." Optional: Blackmail payments from the adoptive parents of the child if they become difficult.
By contrast, your expenses basically consist of the smuggling expense and boarding your victims. That's about it. The rest is profit.

Note that human trafficking in this manner generally won't get you "refined connoisseur" points. The people who are most susceptible to human trafficking are often the sort that most "refined" vamps turn their noses down at.

Note also that the Russian mob, like any other mob, has a reputation unique to its nationality. Specifically, the Russian mob has a reputation for being brutal. Expect violent consequences to any disruption of business. This is a group with ties to a country that does not play nice with the West; if they have to leave in a hurry, they can become untouchable in very short order. They know this, and relish the relative invulnerability that it gives them. They're far less likely to negotiate, and far more likely to leave a body count.

I know I have some skill with evil concepts, but this one makes me a bit ill, to be honest.

comicshorse
2014-05-09, 09:01 AM
I did a little research on the Triads a while back so I can comment on there methods. As I remember the Triads operate on a 'old school tie' approach. That is to say despite being of the same Triad the Home group are effectively a different orginization to the Canadian group. The fact that they are of the same triad gives them a background and culture in common so they can deal with each other more comfortably.
So this will be a business deal between two groups. The Home group will bring the people in and will be paid by the Canadian group who will then profit by, as Blightedmarsh said, charging the immigrants huge sums which they then have to work off.
If you're character can find a sufficiently ruthless Triad 'Snakehead' (the Triad term for those who smuggle people) then there is no reason you're character couldn't take on their debt and so be put in charge of them.
In fact considering the rotten jobs most of these illegal immigrants will have to get, just being available to be feed on could be regarded as them getting lucky. Presuming you wish to ensure they are well treated and not drained.

Oh I believe the Large Circle League/ Big Circle Gang/Big Circle Boys Triad operates in Montreal

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 09:09 AM
Thanks a lot. That helped plenty. I understand it's a very displeasing and vile topic, but it's the sort of stuff I need to know before starting to play my character.

In the case of this game, we have established we'd need to have stuff like "Mafia-H" and "Mafia-D", just because we do not want to make this entire game about the Russia Mafia. I can be their "point man" in Montreal, and I have to answer to them, but that's about it. I was Embraced because the local Kindred wanted to keep tab on a new potential criminal organization arriving. So I basically have dual-loyalties to my distant human origins and my Kindred nature. The Bratvah (Russian Mafia) wants to use me to open shop in Montreal, while the Kindred want to use me to be aware of the Bratvah's operations.

Yhea, I set myself up to dance on a razor blade before Game 1. How clever of me.


I considered to not be the actual "Slave Driver" (or pimp), but merely the "facilitator". The point of contact between the supply of women and the local criminal organizations who want that sort of.. labor (okay. I know. A very aseptic word to describe something horrible).

I was considering to take the "Lordly Palate" merit and systematically sample all smuggled arrivals, and thus trim out those with interesting talents or blood flavor, and pay out of my own pocket their "contract" (to Mafia-H). Thus, I could run a very interesting Cabaret that offers singing, card playing, female company as well as Refined Blood Dolls on demand.


I did a little research on the Triads a while back so I can comment on there methods. As I remember the Triads operate on a 'old school tie' approach. That is to say despite being of the same Triad the Home group are effectively a different orginization to the Canadian group. The fact that they are of the same triad gives them a background and culture in common so they can deal with each other more comfortably.
So this will be a business deal between two groups. The Home group will bring the people in and will be paid by the Canadian group who will then profit by, as Blightedmarsh said, charging the immigrants huge sums which they then have to work off.
If you're character can find a sufficiently ruthless Triad 'Snakehead' (the Triad term for those who smuggle people) then there is no reason you're character couldn't take on their debt and so be put in charge of them.
In fact considering the rotten jobs most of these illegal immigrants will have to get, just being available to be feed on could be regarded as them getting lucky. Presuming you wish to ensure they are well treated and not drained.

In fact, that is exactly what I had in mind. My "selected Blood Dolls" would probably have good jobs as waitress, backup singers or Casino Bunnies as well as being the occasional Vampiric Company. My charming personality (DOMINATE) will make sure they are happy of their lot, and I can always make sure they understand they got the better end of the deal compared to those I have not... kept.

Red Fel
2014-05-09, 09:20 AM
I was considering to take the "Lordly Palate" merit and systematically sample all smuggled arrivals, and thus trim out those with interesting talents or blood flavor, and pay out of my own pocket their "contract" (to Mafia-H). Thus, I could run a very interesting Cabaret that offers singing, card playing, female company as well as Refined Blood Dolls on demand.

. . .

In fact, that is exactly what I had in mind. My "selected Blood Dolls" would probably have good jobs as waitress, backup singers or Casino Bunnies as well as being the occasional Vampiric Company. My charming personality (DOMINATE) will make sure they are happy of their lot, and I can always make sure they understand they got the better end of the deal compared to those I have not... kept.

On the one hand, this is a very smart tactic. You get the cream of the crop, at least blood-wise, and if you treat them nicely (and employ some Stockholm-style tactics), they'll actually be happier (or believe they are) than they would be in the "usual" employ. Which is, in some ways, almost humane of you. Almost.

On the other, the mob will not be happy. Even if you pay for them fair and square, the mob will want a cut of your profits, and that "cut" will increase over time. And for good reason - once you take these women off of the mob's menu and start marketing them on your own label, you become the competition.

The mob sees these women as a continued investment with continued payoffs. My advice would be to operate your business as a sort of "branch office" of the mob, with loyalties and dues paid to the home office, in order to avoid any conflicts. (Again, Dominate-ing a higher-ranking member would help you here.) Trying to buy off their contracts and branch out on your own will make you some very powerful, very destructive enemies.

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 09:31 AM
On the one hand, this is a very smart tactic. You get the cream of the crop, at least blood-wise, and if you treat them nicely (and employ some Stockholm-style tactics), they'll actually be happier (or believe they are) than they would be in the "usual" employ. Which is, in some ways, almost humane of you. Almost.

On the other, the mob will not be happy. Even if you pay for them fair and square, the mob will want a cut of your profits, and that "cut" will increase over time. And for good reason - once you take these women off of the mob's menu and start marketing them on your own label, you become the competition.

The mob sees these women as a continued investment with continued payoffs. My advice would be to operate your business as a sort of "branch office" of the mob, with loyalties and dues paid to the home office, in order to avoid any conflicts. (Again, Dominate-ing a higher-ranking member would help you here.) Trying to buy off their contracts and branch out on your own will make you some very powerful, very destructive enemies.

I AM the "Montreal Branch" of the Russian Mob. So it's obvious I will be sending something back to them, in exchange of me running my little Montreal operation the way I see fit. What I send back can be of multiple methods:

- Pure cash (classic payoff)
- Money Laundering (Casino/Cabaret? It's easy to fiddle with the numbers there)
- "Favor" (they have a personel member they need to law low for a while, I can keep them safe in Montreal)
- Purchasing goods and services meant for my friends in Moscow but that aren't traceable to them directly.

They will ask me money, sure. That's part of the deal. But I think they will be extremely happy with the sort of services I provide them outside of the pure "money".

(And off course, if they even send someone to check up on me, THEN I can dominate them).


Hell. If I even have a cover as a "Talent Management" (for singers, for example), I can use that as a cover to help smuggle the Eastern European into Canada, laundry plenty of money, and still generate a net profit.

edit: Or did you meant the Local Mob I should be afraid of?

comicshorse
2014-05-09, 09:55 AM
and if you treat them nicely (and employ some Stockholm-style tactics), they'll actually be happier (or believe they are) than they would be in the "usual" employ. Which is, in some ways, almost humane of you. Almost.


And they will last longer and so generate more profit (yes I know that's a horrible way to look at it). They will certainly last longer than your bosses back home expect so you can either look good in their eyes or take them off the 'official' books earlier and keep the extra profits for yourselves

Red Fel
2014-05-09, 11:08 AM
I AM the "Montreal Branch" of the Russian Mob. So it's obvious I will be sending something back to them, in exchange of me running my little Montreal operation the way I see fit. What I send back can be of multiple methods:

Then you're in a good position, provided that you keep them convinced that you work for them. As soon as they think you're branching off on your own - even if you keep paying "dues" - they'll probably come after you.



edit: Or did you meant the Local Mob I should be afraid of?

What do you mean or? :smallamused:

Welcome to mob tactics, chief. Part of the reason the Russian mob is able to control its territory is that they are seriously, seriously scary. As the local union rep, as it were, you can expect periodic intrusions into your territory, both by outside mob forces and by your own comrades and subordinates. You can't allow anything resembling peaceful coexistence - either invaders will take advantage of your generosity (read: weakness) and try to squeeze you out (read: kill you and your "merchandise"), or members of your own mob will try to grab influence away while you're not looking, or your patrons will become annoyed that you've allowed cockroaches to infest their house and try to replace you. Which means you'd better have enforcers who can put down any such "incursions," by friendly or hostile groups, in short order.

Basically, you will have to be afraid of your patrons, your colleagues, and your competitors. Because they all find you expendable, at best.

Hyena
2014-05-09, 11:21 AM
My charming personality (DOMINATE) will make sure they are happy of their lot, and I can always make sure they understand they got the better end of the deal compared to those I have not... kept.

I don't think dominate is capable of something that refined - it basically overwrites will of your target. Presence is a discipline that is capable of changing human emotion and subtle approach.

BTW, I advice you to stay out of human trafficking and take a look on a "job" of loan shark and "protection" business.

comicshorse
2014-05-09, 11:25 AM
Welcome to mob tactics, chief. Part of the reason the Russian mob is able to control its territory is that they are seriously, seriously scary. As the local union rep, as it were, you can expect periodic intrusions into your territory, both by outside mob forces and by your own comrades and subordinates. You can't allow anything resembling peaceful coexistence - either invaders will take advantage of your generosity (read: weakness) and try to squeeze you out (read: kill you and your "merchandise"), or members of your own mob will try to grab influence away while you're not looking, or your patrons will become annoyed that you've allowed cockroaches to infest their house and try to replace you. Which means you'd better have enforcers who can put down any such "incursions," by friendly or hostile groups, in short order.

Basically, you will have to be afraid of your patrons, your colleagues, and your competitors. Because they all find you expendable, at best.

One of my first Vampire characters was playing the point man for the Cali cartel in LA so this all brings back happy memories :smallcool:
Particularly the bit where my Sire informed me that one of the main point of my job was to see who crawled out of the woodwork and assassinated me so his next Childe would have a better chance. Though to be fair to him my character was fine was that as he didn't expect getting his own mob to come at an easy price

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 11:28 AM
I don't think dominate is capable of something that refined - it basically overwrites will of your target. Presence is a discipline that is capable of changing human emotion and subtle approach.

BTW, I advice you to stay out of human trafficking and take a look on a "job" of loan shark and "protection" business.

Any reason? I zero'ed in the human trafficking for the very reason it would make me someone "worth knowing" in the local vampire community. Being a "choice Blood Provider" for special tastes without infringing on anyone's hunting ground is something of value in the Kindred Society, no?

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 11:30 AM
Welcome to mob tactics, chief. Part of the reason the Russian mob is able to control its territory is that they are seriously, seriously scary. As the local union rep, as it were, you can expect periodic intrusions into your territory, both by outside mob forces and by your own comrades and subordinates. You can't allow anything resembling peaceful coexistence - either invaders will take advantage of your generosity (read: weakness) and try to squeeze you out (read: kill you and your "merchandise"), or members of your own mob will try to grab influence away while you're not looking, or your patrons will become annoyed that you've allowed cockroaches to infest their house and try to replace you. Which means you'd better have enforcers who can put down any such "incursions," by friendly or hostile groups, in short order.

Basically, you will have to be afraid of your patrons, your colleagues, and your competitors. Because they all find you expendable, at best.

When you say my "patrons", do you mean my.. sponsors or my customers?

Hyena
2014-05-09, 11:35 AM
Any reason? I zero'ed in the human trafficking for the very reason it would make me someone "worth knowing" in the local vampire community. Being a "choice Blood Provider" for special tastes without infringing on anyone's hunting ground is something of value in the Kindred Society, no?
Yes, vampires do like blood. But you know what else they like? Money, living space and material goods. Vampires canon kinda glosses over it, but when you are a blood sucking monster, holding a day job might provide a problem - as does paying taxes. A loan shark, who engages in protection business, can provide it all - for a few favors.

Garimeth
2014-05-09, 11:37 AM
You know you could always have some trusted henchmen/lieutenant that you let handle the "distasteful" portions of the operation, and you keep him in line by viciously beating the hell out of him anytime he steps out of line, but other than that you are the greeatest boss in the world. Then you can kind of have the refined piece you are looking for, the connections you want, but don't have to get in the weeds with RPing the human trafficking piece. I don't even just say that because its distateful, but also because it has the potential to be very time consuming. The key here I think is making sure you and the GM are on the same page, because there are alot of moving parts here, and as Red Fel has pointed out, nobody here has any particular need of YOU, just someone cooperative in your position. This means if your GM is a jerk this may be a very unpleasant game for you.

FWIW, I think its an interesting idea, and as disgusting as real life human trafficking is being a real life murder hobo is pretty bad too. Just play it as your guy understands this is how the business is run, you don't like it, but your guy genuinely does see himself as helping those he selects. Or you can play him as someone who knows exactl how much of a scumbag he is and eithers relishes in it, or seeks redemption.

My 2 cents. Red Fel has given you some great advice.

Garimeth
2014-05-09, 11:39 AM
Yes, vampires do like blood. But you know what else they like? Money, living space and material goods. Vampires canon kinda glosses over it, but when you are a blood sucking monster, holding a day job might provide a problem - as does paying taxes. A loan shark, who engages in protection business, can provide it all - for a few favors.

Holding a day job as a blood-sucking monster is alot easier in the digital age and with access to domestic and foreign stock exchanges, no?

Hyena
2014-05-09, 11:40 AM
If I remember it correctly, Vampires are set in 1991. While a lot more modern then 1950, 1991 is not 2013.

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 11:42 AM
If I remember it correctly, Vampires are set in 1991. While a lot more modern then 1950, 1991 is not 2013.

I would argue that this is up to the GM, and AFAIK, we usually always play it "as contemporary as possible"

Garimeth
2014-05-09, 11:45 AM
I would argue that this is up to the GM, and AFAIK, we usually always play it "as contemporary as possible"

The few times I have played VTM we did it as "contemporary" as well.

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 11:46 AM
You know you could always have some trusted henchmen/lieutenant that you let handle the "distasteful" portions of the operation, and you keep him in line by viciously beating the hell out of him anytime he steps out of line, but other than that you are the greeatest boss in the world. Then you can kind of have the refined piece you are looking for, the connections you want, but don't have to get in the weeds with RPing the human trafficking piece. I don't even just say that because its distateful, but also because it has the potential to be very time consuming. The key here I think is making sure you and the GM are on the same page, because there are alot of moving parts here, and as Red Fel has pointed out, nobody here has any particular need of YOU, just someone cooperative in your position. This means if your GM is a jerk this may be a very unpleasant game for you.

FWIW, I think its an interesting idea, and as disgusting as real life human trafficking is being a real life murder hobo is pretty bad too. Just play it as your guy understands this is how the business is run, you don't like it, but your guy genuinely does see himself as helping those he selects. Or you can play him as someone who knows exactl how much of a scumbag he is and eithers relishes in it, or seeks redemption.

My 2 cents. Red Fel has given you some great advice.

I guess Dominate 3 "The Forgetful Mind" is pretty useful in making him "remember" me being able to beat savagely huge thugs as well as giving him the impression that I always find out when he do operations on the side.

Rule #1 of control --> Appearance of control is more potent that actual control.

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 11:56 AM
I don't think dominate is capable of something that refined - it basically overwrites will of your target. Presence is a discipline that is capable of changing human emotion and subtle approach.

BTW, I advice you to stay out of human trafficking and take a look on a "job" of loan shark and "protection" business.

"Mermerize", Dominate 2, is basically implanting a false thought in the subject's subconscious. It cannot be self-harmful.

But I can sure as hell implant the idea that "I am your last and only hope for a good life".

Garimeth
2014-05-09, 11:57 AM
Yeah i think you could make a pretty awesome character out of this. I can imagine this jaded world weary guy who just got caught up into all this and now wants a way out, but doesn't see one - so he's helping the few he can, how he can. I can imagine a Kingpin-esque crimelord who politely excuses himself from a fancy dinner at an upscale restaraunt to go out back and beat the piss out of someone, wash his hands and come back in and resume his meal.

In fact you have given me an idea for a recurring NPC in my current game. Though I will pass on the human trafficking bit because my game is not that gritty.

comicshorse
2014-05-09, 12:14 PM
You might give David Cronenberg's 'Eastern Promises' a watch for some inspiration. Set among the Russian mob and concerned with people trafficking its appropriate and a fine thriller

Red Fel
2014-05-09, 12:25 PM
When you say my "patrons", do you mean my.. sponsors or my customers?

That's a very good point. Obviously, your sponsors, but technically, your customers are also probably something to be feared. Mortal customers may try to blackmail you into preferential treatment, or be undercover police. Murder them with prejudice, obviously. Your living-impaired customers, on the other hand... Well, if you're not paranoid about them, you haven't been playing WoD very long.


You know you could always have some trusted henchmen/lieutenant that you let handle the "distasteful" portions of the operation, and you keep him in line by viciously beating the hell out of him anytime he steps out of line, but other than that you are the greeatest boss in the world.

Just remember the rule about trusted minions:


I will classify my lieutenants in three categories: untrusted, trusted, and completely trusted. Promotion to the third category will be awarded posthumously.

Sith_Happens
2014-05-09, 06:17 PM
As a side note, where there does this sort of thing stabilize at on the new Humanity scale?

Cikomyr
2014-05-09, 06:37 PM
As a side note, where there does this sort of thing stabilize at on the new Humanity scale?

I'd say about 3-4. :smallannoyed: I am SO going on the crazy

edit: I hope to get my GM to approve that I become some sort of Cat-crazyman. with Ventrue-Animalism, I could easily have 20 cats roaming my bar.

I'd probably beat the **** out of anyone upsetting my cats. :smallbiggrin: I guess "Wrath" will be my sin

Grinner
2014-05-09, 07:14 PM
"Mermerize", Dominate 2, is basically implanting a false thought in the subject's subconscious. It cannot be self-harmful.

But I can sure as hell implant the idea that "I am your last and only hope for a good life".

That's a grey area.

Pg. 125 states "This power lasts for as long as it takes the subject to carry out the required task..". While it does refer to the ability being the implantation of false thoughts, I wouldn't rely on your Storyteller seeing it quite that way. The book implies that it's intended for enforcing specific courses of action; it's not for permanently modifying their beliefs.

Forgetful Mind, on the other hand...

I'd say the weapon of choice for the humane slaver is Awe, of the Majesty discipline. See, it instills genuine emotional attachment, as opposed to Dominate, which just creates senseless compulsions. Consequently, since it leaves victims with their free will, control is no guarantee.