Help making a Ronin Sword-Saint Samurai.

[Naoki00_]

Pretty much exactly as the title says lol, the game is starting at level 6 and I'm going for a really classic ronin samurai feel for the character and Sword-Saint with the Iaijutsu would go with the theme wonderfully, but I've honestly never made a samurai in Pathfinder at all so I was wondering if anyone here had some advice or personal thoughts? As a secondary factor I was hopeing to do a little Crit-fishing to go for a big "cut them right in half" sorta moment

[BWR]

A couple of questions.
Do you mean 'samurai' as in a character class or as in a social position? Because the Samurai class for PF is quite different from the versions found in 3.0/5
If you mean the social position, how can he be ronin and samurai at the same time?
Do you mean 'Iaijutsu' as quick draw or as the Iaijutsu Focus still. Because the former is taken care of by the Quick Draw feat and the latter doesn't exist in PF - you'd have to port it over.

[Naoki00_]

A couple of questions.
Do you mean 'samurai' as in a character class or as in a social position? Because the Samurai class for PF is quite different from the versions found in 3.0/5
If you mean the social position, how can he be ronin and samurai at the same time?
Do you mean 'Iaijutsu' as quick draw or as the Iaijutsu Focus still. Because the former is taken care of by the Quick Draw feat and the latter doesn't exist in PF - you'd have to port it over.

Well I was hoping having the Pathfinder tag would clean things up lol. I mean the Class in pathfinder, the Sword-lord Archetype that trades away the mount and mounted combat stuff to gain the Iaijutsu ability, and the Ronin Order which is one of the order options you can choose within the class. The character is a ronin in social standing however as they scorn the traditional idea of a master seeing them as corrupting the nature of bushido.

[BWR]

Just checking. Since the words have multiple meanings in game situations it's good to check, and not everyone who is playing a certain system is familiar with all aspects of it.

I'm not particularly famliiar with the PF Samurai but I hope this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gD4kwJXJPMUDGuKsvYiL03ACj-ZqiwDcMrkHtV9mmKI/edit?pli=1)will help.

[avr]

The Iaijutsu Strike looks like a bad idea. Basically you wait for someone to charge you, take whatever damage or effects that has, then spend a full round action making a single attack with less bonus damage than a sneak attack, then assuming you don't kill them (likely) they get to rip you apart with -4 to your AC.

Ow. The times/day limit is irrelevant, you won't survive doing that often.

If you want some sort of massive attack ability can I suggest taking some other class and just say you're a samurai by social position? Paladin or magus or even some variety of ranger.

[torrasque666]

He already said what class he is using and wants help with the idea. Not to be told to go use a different class.

Lets see what we can work with here.

Starting at 6th level? Here's what you get.
Iaijutsu Strike: Swift Action Challenge nearby opponent and then attack, dealing +3d6 in additional damage.

Brutal Slash: if threatening a crit, adding +3 to your confirmation roll. I imagine this is why you want to go crit-fishing.

Terrifying Iaijutsu: When you make a successful Iaijutsu strike, every foe within 30 feet make a 16+CHA will save or become shaken for minimum 2, maximum 5 rounds. This will help negate the penalty to your AC by a bit, but you'll still be more vulnerable.

By using a weapon with a large crit-range and nice damage(you might need to splurge for a keen weapon) you should be able to pull this off. This is an archetype that focuses on two-handing a big sword for the extra strength-mod.

You'll want to buff strength if you can and should definitely be your primary stat. Secondary should be CHA in order to get the most out of Terrifying Iaijutsu. It doesn't say that it doesn't stack with PA so you can squeeze out a bit of extra damage for a -2 to hit. Since you're going with the Ronin order you'll get an additional +2 to attack and a +2 dodge.

I'd post more but I have to run to class.

[Naoki00_]

The Iaijutsu Strike looks like a bad idea. Basically you wait for someone to charge you, take whatever damage or effects that has, then spend a full round action making a single attack with less bonus damage than a sneak attack, then assuming you don't kill them (likely) they get to rip you apart with -4 to your AC.

Ow. The times/day limit is irrelevant, you won't survive doing that often.

If you want some sort of massive attack ability can I suggest taking some other class and just say you're a samurai by social position? Paladin or magus or even some variety of ranger.



He already said what class he is using and wants help with the idea. Not to be told to go use a different class.

Lets see what we can work with here.

Starting at 6th level? Here's what you get.
Iaijutsu Strike: Swift Action Challenge nearby opponent and then attack, dealing +3d6 in additional damage.

Brutal Slash: if threatening a crit, adding +3 to your confirmation roll. I imagine this is why you want to go crit-fishing.

Terrifying Iaijutsu: When you make a successful Iaijutsu strike, every foe within 30 feet make a 16+CHA will save or become shaken for minimum 2, maximum 5 rounds. This will help negate the penalty to your AC by a bit, but you'll still be more vulnerable.

By using a weapon with a large crit-range and nice damage(you might need to splurge for a keen weapon) you should be able to pull this off. This is an archetype that focuses on two-handing a big sword for the extra strength-mod.

You'll want to buff strength if you can and should definitely be your primary stat. Secondary should be CHA in order to get the most out of Terrifying Iaijutsu. It doesn't say that it doesn't stack with PA so you can squeeze out a bit of extra damage for a -2 to hit. Since you're going with the Ronin order you'll get an additional +2 to attack and a +2 dodge.

I'd post more but I have to run to class.

Why would I wait for someone to charge me? the attack it'self takes a full round action sure but it says nothing about not 'holding' the attack. If the sword is sheathed and I challenge a foe while I have another weapon drawn, I see no reason I couldn't move with the first out and then as a surprise attack once in range putting the first away (free action once a round for +1 bab classes) and using Iaijustu with the second. I didn't have this info yesterday though I now also know the DM says that the Vital Strike line of feats can apply to Iaijutsu strikes which works out since I planned on being more mobile and not just being a full round attacker.

Curiously I have to ask why choosing one of those classes for 'one big attack' lol, they all want to attack a bunch and not just once.

And yeah that is part of the reason for the critical focus but it's also cause the katana is an 18-20 weapon making it nice to start on, and thats a good point on CHA being a great secondary to max out the Intimidate.

[Ssalarn]

One word for you. "Nodachi".

The Brace property combined with an 18-20 crit range means this sucker is pretty much the go-to weapon for a samurai who wants to use Iaijutsu Strike effectively. This does mean that it's a weapon that doesn't stack with your Weapon Expertise class feature, but I like to think that that just means you've got more options. Select the Longbow for that class feature and now you're a full fledged samurai, master of blade and bow. The only thing you're losing out on here is the ability to stack your Samurai levels with Fighter levels for your main weapon, and what you gain back is going to compensate. Most of the other abilities granted are wasted since you'll be Iaijutsu striking, and being able to switch hit with decent effectiveness is a big deal (and probably something you're going to want to have tucked away to help compensate for the weaknesses of the Iaijutsu style).

The crappy thing about Iaijutsu Strike is that since it's its own special action, it stacks with almost nothing other than Power Attack for improving damage. No Vital Strike, the bonus damage isn't even as good as Sneak Attack since you only get it once, so you've got to find other ways to make that one hit count. Nodachi is a two-hander, so that squeezes the most out of STR and PA, and at 10th level when your Iaijutsu Strike becomes a standard action you can start readying your iaijutsu to strike the next enemy that comes within your reach. If they're charging, you get double damage, which is going to be a boatload since you'll be multiplying those +3 / 4 level Power Attack bonuses and 1.5x STR (along with any other applicable bonuses like weapon enhancement). The Nodachi's 18-20 crit range means you're not going to have to try too hard to get that to a 15-20, and that extended crit range will also help you maximize your damage. On the 30% or so chance (that's roughly 3 times out of every 10) that you crit when you've readied a strike and an opponent charges you, you'll be dealing triple damage plus your bonus d6's, which is pretty respectable.

**EDIT**

I see that your GM is houseruling Vital Strike. That changes things a bit.

Consider grabbing Devastating Strike, the bonus damage that it grants will be multiplied on a critical hit. You aren't going to need the Brace property for bonus damage, so forget about the Nodachi. Grab a katana and pick it for your Weapon Expertise class feature, and grab the Weapon Focus / Specialization feats. Still keep a longbow on hand for emergencies.

[Slipperychicken]

The class does pretty much all the work for you. Just pump your strength, two-hand your +1 Keen Katana, grab power attack, and enjoy that 15-20 critical threat range. In terms of fighting style, Samurai is basically a fighter with a few per-day abilities.

As for feats, I like Step Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/step-up-combat---final). If you want to put ranks in Sense Motive, have a decent Wisdom, and 2 feats to spare, you could try Snake Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snake-style-combat-style) for 1/round AC = Sense Motive. Furious Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat) can also be nice, doubly so when you can't make a full attack.


The Iaijutsu Strike looks like a bad idea. Basically you wait for someone to charge you, take whatever damage or effects that has, then spend a full round action making a single attack with less bonus damage than a sneak attack, then assuming you don't kill them (likely) they get to rip you apart with -4 to your AC.

Ow. The times/day limit is irrelevant, you won't survive doing that often.

If you want some sort of massive attack ability can I suggest taking some other class and just say you're a samurai by social position? Paladin or magus or even some variety of ranger.

It's all right if he doesn't want the mount, though. Unless it's a high-op game, he'll do just fine.

[torrasque666]

Why would I wait for someone to charge me? the attack it'self takes a full round action sure but it says nothing about not 'holding' the attack. If the sword is sheathed and I challenge a foe while I have another weapon drawn, I see no reason I couldn't move with the first out and then as a surprise attack once in range putting the first away (free action once a round for +1 bab classes) and using Iaijustu with the second. I didn't have this info yesterday though I now also know the DM says that the Vital Strike line of feats can apply to Iaijutsu strikes which works out since I planned on being more mobile and not just being a full round attacker.

Curiously I have to ask why choosing one of those classes for 'one big attack' lol, they all want to attack a bunch and not just once.

And yeah that is part of the reason for the critical focus but it's also cause the katana is an 18-20 weapon making it nice to start on, and thats a good point on CHA being a great secondary to max out the Intimidate.

What I was saying was to hold your challenge until you're right next to them. As far as I know(might be wrong here) you can do a swift and a full round action at the same round. So move with your other weapon out to protect yourself a bit, keep that Keen Katana sheathed, and once you're withing striking distance sheathe your other weapon, challenge your opponent and the full round for Iaijutsu Strike.

[Ssalarn]

Side note here, it's a move action, not a swift action, to sheathe your weapon in Pathfinder. Quick Draw has no effect on this. He could free action drop the one he's holding though.

[Slipperychicken]

Side note here, it's a move action, not a swift action, to sheathe your weapon in Pathfinder. Quick Draw has no effect on this. He could free action drop the one he's holding though.

If his katana was also a pistol (gun-blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pistol-sword-cane), anyone?), I think he could use Gun Twirling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit) to sheathe it as a free action.

[Ssalarn]

If his katana was also a pistol (gun-blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pistol-sword-cane), anyone?), I think he could use Gun Twirling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit) to sheathe it as a free action.

That image made me smile. "Bang bang!" *twirls gunblade into sheathe* "Iaijutsu Strike!". "To all you GM's who don't like anime up in your medieval fantasy... Suck it."

[Naoki00_]

That image made me smile. "Bang bang!" *twirls gunblade into sheathe* "Iaijutsu Strike!". "To all you GM's who don't like anime up in your medieval fantasy... Suck it."

well great now i want to make a dashing samurai XD

[Feint's End]

He already said what class he is using and wants help with the idea. Not to be told to go use a different class.

Except that he said he wanted to go for the classic Samurai character and thinks that Sword-Saint Samurai is the way to go. What if there would be a Fighter Archetype, which would fit the Samurai-image in OPs head much better, which he (or she) doesn't know about? Wouldn't it be helpful then to suggest some other mechanical superior or just more flavourful solutions?

If you really want to help people you can ask them why they want to play a certain class and what kind of image they have in mind. Then you can help them pick a class or build, which works best for that image. If OPs image ticks all boxes on the Samurai class using the Sword-Saint Samurai then please go ahead and recommend it but I couldn't tell from the OP. Therefor asking for the picture the person has in mind and afterwards telling them if there would be a better fit is entirely legit and indeed helpful.


Naoki00_ ... what kind of image do you have of a Samurai in a fantasyworld? Maybe there would be a class or archetype which fits your image better. Samurai is just a name and can be equally applied to over a dozen PF classes (some of them magical others mundane).

[Ssalarn]

I think my favorite sword saint type character is actually the Weapon Master Fighter Archetype. Slap a katana on that bad boy and you absolutely will be cutting critters in half with a single swing of the sword. Flesh it out with levels of the Kensai Magus archetype and you've got a sweet thing going. I like Fighter (Weapon Master) 9 / Kensai 11 for the best mix.

You get most of the good Weapon Master abilities and plenty of feats, and you get a bunch of sweet Magus goodies including the ability to auto-confirm crits at a relatively low level. You also finish with a total effective Fighter level of 17, so you can grabjust about any feat you might want.

[Naoki00_]

Except that he said he wanted to go for the classic Samurai character and thinks that Sword-Saint Samurai is the way to go. What if there would be a Fighter Archetype, which would fit the Samurai-image in OPs head much better, which he (or she) doesn't know about? Wouldn't it be helpful then to suggest some other mechanical superior or just more flavourful solutions?

If you really want to help people you can ask them why they want to play a certain class and what kind of image they have in mind. Then you can help them pick a class or build, which works best for that image. If OPs image ticks all boxes on the Samurai class using the Sword-Saint Samurai then please go ahead and recommend it but I couldn't tell from the OP. Therefor asking for the picture the person has in mind and afterwards telling them if there would be a better fit is entirely legit and indeed helpful.


Naoki00_ ... what kind of image do you have of a Samurai in a fantasyworld? Maybe there would be a class or archetype which fits your image better. Samurai is just a name and can be equally applied to over a dozen PF classes (some of them magical others mundane).


I think my favorite sword saint type character is actually the Weapon Master Fighter Archetype. Slap a katana on that bad boy and you absolutely will be cutting critters in half with a single swing of the sword. Flesh it out with levels of the Kensai Magus archetype and you've got a sweet thing going. I like Fighter (Weapon Master) 9 / Kensai 11 for the best mix.

You get most of the good Weapon Master abilities and plenty of feats, and you get a bunch of sweet Magus goodies including the ability to auto-confirm crits at a relatively low level. You also finish with a total effective Fighter level of 17, so you can grabjust about any feat you might want.

Well I admit that I just didn't know anything closer to the idea of a classical samurai with a darker edge to it, without the whole mount thing. As for my idea of a samurai in the game I would say a frontline combatant with a dexterous side devoted to honorable combat and the idea of landing the killing stroke on it's enemies.

to Ssalarn, I actually think that does look really cool!, I've never seen Kensai archetype before

[Ssalarn]

Yeah, Kensai is pretty solid, but it's a little lacking all by itself. That's why I like mixing it with Weapon Master. The two separately have some pretty big gaps, but together they're a pretty awesome killing machine with some very solid abilities.

[Feint's End]

Yeah, Kensai is pretty solid, but it's a little lacking all by itself. That's why I like mixing it with Weapon Master. The two separately have some pretty big gaps, but together they're a pretty awesome killing machine with some very solid abilities.

Kensai is good but remember you are pretty much bound to play dexterity magus because of the otherwise horrendous ac you will have (on a dex dervish you are most likely on par due to canny defense). Depending on ops view it's not really what he wants. Also there is now RAW way to dexterity-use a Katana BUT you could ask for using it with dexterity (after all there is this elven exotic weapon which can be used that way).

If you have no problem with the maneuver system I'd recommend taking a look at the Warlord (more leaderlike, charismafocus) and Warder (tankier and protector, intelligence synergy) from the DSP Path of War book. They both fit Samurai rather nicely and are mechanically interesting ... Warlord even has some nice customization options on how to restore maneuvers.
Alternatively you could port the Warblade or Crusader from 3.5 if you feel more comfortable using those 2.

For a more supernatural approach I recommend Psychic Warrior. They are extremely customable and have a very nice powercurve which keeps them relevant at all levels. Also one of the few melee classes with easy access to swift action movement. Bonuspoints for using a deep crystal Katana and slicing up enemies with psionics energy.

Paladin is better at being a good Samurai than a Samurai on it's own. Just pick your weapon for divine bond and you won't have a mount neither.

The classes mentioned above are all mechanically superior and fit certain images of Samurai better than the Samurai class itself.

[Naoki00_]

Sorry about not replying sooner, life getting all in my business and what not lol. I want to say thanks for all the great input and reminding me why I come here for advice about these things!, In the end I've settled on the Fighter/Kensai partly because never having played the magus at all the less magic oriented archetype seems a good place to start!, It is actually kinda sad how it's true that the other classes do portray the samurai better though....I kinda wish they just went a little mythical honor warrior on it instead of "Cavalier archetype", but at least after making this it's on to a Savage Tacticion/bard rage buffer lol.