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View Full Version : New to DandD trying to make a Balanced Arcane Swordsage.



Masakan
2014-05-09, 05:02 AM
Most of you are probably thinking oh god not another one. But I really Like this concept, at the same time I can see how it could easily be abused. So my aim is to make rules and restrictions so that most DM's will go with it rather than try to negotiate with them all the time.

The main problems I see with most other attempts is people either, try to make it so that they have too much hidden power, or they make it so that you might as well play a dusk blade.

Here's my attempt tell me what you think. Is it still too powerful or god forbid too weak?

Arcane Swordsage
The Arcane swordsage is a variant of the swordsage class depicted from the Tome of Battle: The book of 9 Swords. Similar to a duskblade, the swordsage channels magical energy into his weapon to enhance his abilities, however unlike the duskblade who uses his Blade as a makeshift wand/staff.
The sword sage uses said energy to amplify his damage, requiring him to get up-close and personal. This proved problematic as some swordsages found this approach rather limiting, as a result certain practitioners choose to delve back into their roots of pure magic casting.
Eventually a style was developed that allowed swordsages to utilize both the benefits of maneuvers with the flexibility of Raw spellcasting. Of course practicing both at the same time causes certain swordsages skills in maneuvers to wane and dwindle, but most who take this path will agree, it’s worth it.

The arcane swordsage has the same level progression as a regular swordsage in regards to passive gains, fort, reflex and will gains, Base attack bonuses, passive feats as well as stances known and maneuvers learned and readied.
However certain limitations are put in place to make sure that this variant doesn’t become an overpowering force in every campaign it’s put in as is listed below
Same limitations as presented in that small passage apply here, As well as some other Limitations.
1. Your Hit die is reduced from d8 to d6
2. Your light armor proficiency has been removed
3. You may only learn skills from the abjuration, Evocation and Transmutation schools
4. The total amount of Maneuvers and Spells combined learned cannot exceed the total amount that you are currently able to learn.(EX: At level 20 you can have 13 maneuvers and 12 spells but they can not go beyond that unless you go into a prestige class that allows for more maneuvers to be learned.)
5. When you are about to learn a new maneuver you can then choose to switch it out for a spell learned, if you choose to enter a prestige class that learns maneuvers the same rules apply.
6. Spells can be obtained in place of maneuvers, but must be treated as spells meaning they can only be used once a day and must be reloaded from your spell book and cannot be reloaded by any other means( In other words, adaptive style will work on your maneuvers but they will not work on spells forcing the player to choose wisely and used sparingly) Sudden Recovery is the only exception to this rule.
7. In addition to the school limitations, you may only learn defensive spells, Non-damaging spells, and Damaging spells that have an element of your choosing, once you choose your element you cannot learn any other attack spell that uses any other element.(the upside to this being as long as it is within these rules you can learn any spell you wish)
8. Your initiator level for spells is the same as the initiator level of maneuvers(Example: If you are level 5 as a arcane swordsage, you may learn up to level 3 maneuvers, you may also learn up to level 3 spells as well)
9. Your Arcane Caster level is Linked to your initiator level, meaning that on your own you can not have a caster level higher than 10 on your own whereas most casters will have ones as high as 20. This is so you can’t hit as hard as pure spell casters without the help of certain feats or prestige classes that allow you to get more Arcane caster levels.

I think that's everything anything I'm missing or did i cover all the bases?

Nightraiderx
2014-05-09, 07:00 AM
That is waaaaay too restricting. I'll be honest with you; if you go arcane swordsage you should not be able to use manuevers.
It would change spells into manuevers that only you can use. Also, the text not only limited the text but the type of spells (touch or personal)
that removes spammings of fireball and limits the amount of things that can be used. I would also nix polymorph/shapechange (the lesser form ones are alright).
I would also indicate that one can only grab arcane evocation/transmutation/abjuration spells of touch from the wizard/sorcerer and wujen spell lists. let them loose the stance progression. I would also limit the spellcasting access to a bard's progression. (that way there is a limit of 6th level spells). I would allow the spells to be cast in light armor, and would also allow metamagic to affect the spells (since the slots you gain are of the highest level anyways) but would act similar to adding metamagic to a spontaneous caster (increasing the time increases). I made an arcane swordsage warforged and it was very fun.
these are suggestions so take them with a grain of salt if you wish.

John Longarrow
2014-05-09, 07:14 AM
With 20 levels you can build a character with 15 maneuvers known, IL 15, Access to 5th level spells, and a caster level of 14 with just Sword Sage, Wizard, and Abjurant Champion.

Even a straight Wizard 10/Sword Sage 10 winds up with a BAB of 12 (3 less than straight Sword Sage), 10 less maneuvers than a straight Sword Sage, but casts 5th level spells.

I'd keep in mind what can already be made easily when looking for a "Balanced" version.

Xerlith
2014-05-09, 09:47 AM
With 20 levels you can build a character with 15 maneuvers known, IL 15, Access to 5th level spells, and a caster level of 14 with just Sword Sage, Wizard, and Abjurant Champion.

Even a straight Wizard 10/Sword Sage 10 winds up with a BAB of 12 (3 less than straight Sword Sage), 10 less maneuvers than a straight Sword Sage, but casts 5th level spells.

I'd keep in mind what can already be made easily when looking for a "Balanced" version.

The wizard doesn't get them unlimited as the Swordsage does, though.
There was a great homebrewed Arcane Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187632-Arcane-Swordsage-Making-it-actually-work) in these very forums.
If not: Homebrew Discipline Compendium. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255468) There are some inherently magical disciplines there - just swap them with the default swordsage ones and enjoy a caster-lite.

John Longarrow
2014-05-09, 09:58 AM
Xerlith,

OP was refering to being able to cast spells ONCE per day instead of having them reset like maneuvers.

Also, 5th level spells normally beat any maneuver for most things, including having a duration... :-)

Xerlith
2014-05-09, 10:01 AM
Oh. Then it would be worse than Battle Sorcerer. So, well, not really a good idea.

John Longarrow
2014-05-09, 10:19 AM
Plus they trade Maneuvers know for spells that can be used once per day.

I can see a couple spells being worth it, but not enough to make it a worth while class feature.

Greater Luminous Armor? OK, I can bit.

Just about anything with less than Hours/Level duration would be wasted.

avr
2014-05-09, 10:21 AM
As given this sucks compared to a standard swordsage or a wizard. Is this your intent? What balance point are you aiming at?

Also there's a homebrew forum which this thread would probably be more at home in.

Masakan
2014-05-09, 11:04 AM
With 20 levels you can build a character with 15 maneuvers known, IL 15, Access to 5th level spells, and a caster level of 14 with just Sword Sage, Wizard, and Abjurant Champion.

Even a straight Wizard 10/Sword Sage 10 winds up with a BAB of 12 (3 less than straight Sword Sage), 10 less maneuvers than a straight Sword Sage, but casts 5th level spells.

I'd keep in mind what can already be made easily when looking for a "Balanced" version.

So what? I'm better off just making a straight sword sage with a side class of wizard?

Hecuba
2014-05-09, 11:27 AM
Assuming you aren't aiming for something strictly better than a sorcerer, I would aim to trade a maneuver for a spell of 1 level lower.

This effectively means you would access new spell levels 1 level later than a sorcerer in exchange for:

A spells/encounter limit instead of spells/day (effectively)
A nice set of good class features (evasion, initiative boost, stances)
The option of grabbing Maneuvers in addition to spells
better hit die


As an additional note, this puts progression more or less in the neighborhood of JPM (though without the eventual promise of 9th spells).

Xerlith
2014-05-09, 11:29 AM
See the links I posted here above. Well, you still get spells, and it's up to 9th level spells, which is always great, and a wizard outshines many, many classes, so it's not really a fault.
The problem here is that the class becomes greatly unfocused - and what you end up with is basically a Battle Sorcerer. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)

Masakan
2014-05-09, 11:50 AM
Assuming you aren't aiming for something strictly better than a sorcerer, I would aim to trade a maneuver for a spell of 1 level lower.

This effectively means you would access new spell levels 1 level later than a sorcerer in exchange for:

A spells/encounter limit instead of spells/day (effectively)
A nice set of good class features (evasion, initiative boost, stances)
The option of grabbing Maneuvers in addition to spells
better hit die


As an additional note, this puts progression more or less in the neighborhood of JPM (though without the eventual promise of 9th spells).

Heheh. Caught that did you? Yeah I made this with the intent of going for the JPM prestige class.


See the links I posted here above. Well, you still get spells, and it's up to 9th level spells, which is always great, and a wizard outshines many, many classes, so it's not really a fault.
The problem here is that the class becomes greatly unfocused - and what you end up with is basically a Battle Sorcerer. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)

Isn't that what the option of specialization is for?

John Longarrow
2014-05-09, 12:19 PM
So what? I'm better off just making a straight sword sage with a side class of wizard?

Yes.

If I can either have casting as a 10th level wizard OR split maneuvers and 1/day spells as a 20th level Sword Sage with a caster level of 10, I'll go with the Wizard.
As a wizard, I can always improve my caster level and get more spells. I also cast more spells per day than the Sword Sage you propose.

Mechanically there isn't much reason to go with your "Arcane Sword Sage" when there are far better ways of getting the same results.

Masakan
2014-05-09, 12:34 PM
Hmm one last thing, I Keep people saying that fire damage is generally bad, is it? and if so why?

Gildedragon
2014-05-09, 01:15 PM
Easy to resist