Entangle OP?

[me_maikey]

I had quite a few words with my DM about entangle. He hates it and finds it broken. As the druid using the spell I love it, but I acknowledge that it is way to strong.

Entangle:

Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled.
The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area.
Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

1, You need nature stuff to entangle. This is fair and not really a problem, usually there is at least some vegetation, planted pots etc.
2, A full-round is lost if the reflex save is failed if you are not a ranged character. And a 20 check is sick for a first level spell.
3, Even if you brake free, every turn you can get stuck again and with half movement getting out there can take a while.

Does anyone have experience with homebrewing entangle or any advice? My first level spell should not be my go-to spell :p.

[Umbranar]

For a level 1 spell its WAY to powerful.
Changes I can think of are:

1. Changing the DC to break free/Escape Artist to the DC of the spell (10+spell level+casting stat+feats/abilities/other boosts)
2. Change the action needed for the check to free once per round, although DC 20 is still hard for low levels.
Maybe even change duration and/or radius.

[ryu]

If you're high enough level that you have issues with first levels spells being relevant in combat the things you're fighting shouldn't have much of a problem with it. By the time I stop finding uses for firsts in combat in one way or another things are flying. Not just some things, but pretty much most things.

I think the real issue here is probably that druids are tier 1. What does the rest of the party look like?

[Darrin]

Yes, it's the best 1st level battlefield control spell. If your DM is too thickheaded to outfit his meatbags with a basic ranged weapon (slings and javelins are cheap), well... if you don't stir the gravy, it's going to have lumps. I wouldn't call it OP. It's not in the same league as power word: pain.

If your DM is giving you grief over the vegetation requirement, try casting spore field (Complete Scoundrel) first (fungi = plants), or switch to impeding stones (Cityscape). I actually consider it a better spell than entangle:

1. No vegetation required. You have to really go out of your way to find yourself on a surface that isn't dirt/earth/stone/brick/etc.
2. Failing the Ref/Balance check costs your opponent a move action to stand up instead of a full round Escape check.
3. The -2 attack penalty applies even if they make the save/Balance check.

[Killer Angel]

I had quite a few words with my DM about entangle. He hates it and finds it broken. As the druid using the spell I love it, but I acknowledge that it is way to strong.


Druid is powerful. She's a T1 that have a strong impact since lev. 1... and entangle (which is not always usable and have many limitations) is only one of the many ways a druid solves problems.
To nerf entangle, can help in the same way a "cure minor wounds" helps a fighter caught by a blade barrier.

[.Zero]

Little questions:
It seems that Entangle functions even in a field with a small amount of grass like a soccer stadium. If you cast Entangle in such an area (causing the grass to grow), can that area be considered a forested area? This question applies even in the case you first cast Spore Field.
Can a Druid benefit from Woodland Stride to move across the entangled area at full speed and without risking to get entangled?

[John Longarrow]

I'd suggest your DM learn a few standard monster tricks for low level parties.
1) DON'T BUNCH UP
2) Use Ranged combat
3) DON'T BUNCH UP
4) Exploit standard party weaknesses (like mass fire on the guy NOT in armor on the 1st round, then switch to the guy in light armor)
5) Keep moving (either to be next to adventurers or out of range of their charges.

I've seen too many times when the monsters show up in fireball formation and the DM wonders why one fireball takes out his encounter.

For Entangle, its only a really good spell if your party can take advantage of it. Great for running away, great for making your ranged combatants shine.

[Darrin]

Little questions:
It seems that Entangle functions even in a field with a small amount of grass like a soccer stadium. If you cast Entangle in such an area (causing the grass to grow), can that area be considered a forested area? This question applies even in the case you first cast Spore Field.


Grass and fungi are not trees. No trees, no forest. What exactly do you need a "forested area" for? The only thing I can think of where that might matter is determining the terrain for rolling on an encounter table... and a temporary magical effect isn't going to affect that. Well, maybe if you need to use treestride, but entangle isn't going to create a tree for you.



Can a Druid benefit from Woodland Stride to move across the entangled area at full speed and without risking to get entangled?

No. PHB p. 36: "However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her." So Woodland Stride doesn't help them move through an entangle area.

If you want the ability to move through your own BFC spells, try ice slick + snowshoes or impeding stones + surefooted stride.

[Togo]

Entangle is OP. I've used it to great effect with my 15th level druid, which isn't the case for most other first level spells. The big problem with entangle is that you have to keep on making saves every round to get out of the area, while failing a save traps you and passing a save still inhibits your ability to escape from the area of effect.

Use the fixed version - Briar Web is a second level spell that is very similar to entangle except that it deals damage as well, and has more reasonable rules*. Use a no-damage version of briar web as your 1st level entangle spell, and it should be fine.

*The biggest change is that you only have to make a successful save once, rather than every round.

[Summerstorm]

Hm, on my druid it worked exactly zero times. (But i am midlevel, 8, at the moment, so maybe already too highlevel)

Mostly i am underground and something when my GM says: Nope.. not enough plant-matter here for it to work. Or lately, when i was in a swamp fighting another druid and some ogres. They used it on us (Without effect), then i at them (No effect). Everybody always makes their saves and half speed isn't so bad when nearly everybody WANTS to melee *g*.

[Lokd0wn]

To be honest one of the main reasons why Entangle is so good is that it covers a HUGE area. 40ft radius i.e. 80ft diameter is a considerable amount of real estate. This is only further exacerbated by the fact that using a battle grid of some sort is pretty much required if you want to have in depth combat interactions. I myself use a medium Chessex battle mat because it fits comfortably on a standard trestle table and it is 22x25 squares. Entangle covers a 16x16 square spread so that's roughly about 2/3rds of the entire battle mat and two castings would easily be able to cover the entire mat with a good bit of overlap.

[torrasque666]

True, it does cover a large area, but only as large an area as there is plant life. If you need to do prepwork(IE sporefield) then it only effects the area effected by sporefield.

[Malstrum]

spore field[/I] (Complete Scoundrel) first (fungi = plants), or switch to impeding stones (Cityscape). I actually consider it a better spell than entangle:


I'm not sure this would work, fungi and plants are in different kingdoms.

However, I think I remember seeing a spell that was similar but with plants. I will see if I can find it.

There's always that wondrous item; the feather-tree token. You could toss that down and it would have sufficient root cover to give you the plant matter you need for the radius of the spell.

EDIT: it seems Darrin beat me to it.

[Lokd0wn]

True, it does cover a large area, but only as large an area as there is plant life. If you need to do prepwork(IE sporefield) then it only effects the area effected by sporefield.

Yeah that is the other problem with Entangle. It falls straight into the ever nebulous "DM discretion" in regards to how much vegetation is needed and how much it will affect the area. This used to be a good limiting factor until Impeding Stones turned up. Now you have amazing BFC for 90% of the surfaces you're likely to be on. Not to mention that while Impeding Stones isn't as good as Entangle for denying movement its debuffs happen whether you pass your save or not.

[Incanur]

Yeah, between impeding Stones, entangle, spike growth, and spike stones, druids have some ridiculous BFC ability. Folks typically go on about how druids turn into bears and eat people - which they do - but druid spells alone make them tier 1 and often constitute a better option than meleeing in wild shape.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I had quite a few words with my DM about entangle. He hates it and finds it broken. As the druid using the spell I love it, but I acknowledge that it is way to strong.

Entangle:

Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled.
The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area.
Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.

1, You need nature stuff to entangle. This is fair and not really a problem, usually there is at least some vegetation, planted pots etc.
2, A full-round is lost if the reflex save is failed if you are not a ranged character. And a 20 check is sick for a first level spell.
3, Even if you brake free, every turn you can get stuck again and with half movement getting out there can take a while.

Does anyone have experience with homebrewing entangle or any advice? My first level spell should not be my go-to spell :p.

I haven't found it to be overpowered, it's just really good for level 1. It will not work everywhere, I've seen plenty of urban or dungeon environments where it just plain can't be used. The huge area is often a negative as much as a positive, it can be hard to place it so that it doesn't screw over your own melee PCs. And it does little to foes with spells or ranged weapons. As a DM and as a player, I try to make sure anyone who can has ranged options. The monsters who can't/won't are usually either fliers or so big and strong they can push through it without too much trouble anyway. Color Spray, for comparison, will shut down anyone not immune to mind-affecting for at least 1 round and at the low levels where entangle seems the most obscene is an auto-win if the foe fails to save.

If you were to nerf it, I'd further restrict the types of environments/plant life you can use it on. Druids should be scary in areas of abundant plant life! :smallsmile:

[torrasque666]

Granted, it does force a concentration check on spellcasters, but at higher levels it shouldn't be an issue.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure this would work, fungi and plants are in different kingdoms.


Just to clarify, the DMG says this on page 76:

"For purposes of spells and other special effects, all slimes, molds, and fungi are treated as plants."

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, one, it's situational. You aren't going to be able to pull this off in many common adventuring environments, like in practically any dungeon. Two, while it's pretty mean to start, particularly against casters, it doesn't scale either. It doesn't matter how awesome a druid you are, how wise you are or what spell slot you use, it's still the same ol' DC 20. Is it OP? Perhaps, but it's not as godly as claimed.

[me_maikey]

Wow, lot of comments. I will elaborate a little more.

I had a few talks with my GM on what to do with it. Scaling the save like other spells was pretty much a no brainer for both of us. He also was thinking to make the save a standard action so you can move after it if you succeed on the save. Lastly There was the option that it does not keep moving, so no new saves are needed after the first success.

We had some comments before about it being OP, but the most recent battle was against a bunch of orcs (some ogres and a giant included). We could stay in a very small settlement (few houses) and defend a siege (the easy way) or go to the orc encampment and play slaughterhouse/get slaughtered. So of course we went to the camp (not a party for combat tactics :P). Soon enough we encounter the giant and more and more orcs came out of huts in a semicircle and from some distance away. This got quite some cannon fodder and the camp leaders together. Almost all are barbarians. One good entangle (and a hideous laughter on the giant, fumbled will save I think) got almost all DPS on passive, the arrows they shot we could laugh at. Next round I followed it with a sleet storm hampering their vision. So:

- no vision for them, so no range attacks
- mostly stuck in entangle, or get stuck a round or 2 later -> next turn is gone freeing yourself
- a laughing giant that is being poked by the whole party

After the giant the sleet storm was gone and arrows flew our way again, but we had some more time to shoot back, dump spells and position before I dropped the entangle and we raped them.

Of course this spell is not the /winbutton spell, but for its level it does too much. Briar web is a level higher, half the radius and only a single save. I think all mobs would have loved to trade the dmg for only needing one save.

Lastly, tanglefoot bag into entangle if you are in a pinch :D.

[eggynack]

Of course this spell is not the /winbutton spell, but for its level it does too much. Briar web is a level higher, half the radius and only a single save. I think all mobs would have loved to trade the dmg for only needing one save.

Yeah, entangle is one of the best druid BFC's of first level, and also probably of second level, only maybe falling behind some when you hit thirds. Briar web is notable for its interaction with woodland stride, but that's just not sufficient to overcome the sheer power of other options available. As for the conundrum of targeting, my go-to solution is plant-dog, where you attach plants to the barding of your riding dog animal companion somehow, and then just put him in the area of your entangles.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, entangle is one of the best druid BFC's of first level, and also probably of second level, only maybe falling behind some when you hit thirds. Briar web is notable for its interaction with woodland stride, but that's just not sufficient to overcome the sheer power of other options available. As for the conundrum of targeting, my go-to solution is plant-dog, where you attach plants to the barding of your riding dog animal companion somehow, and then just put him in the area of your entangles.
So your plant dog is a literal chia pet.:smalltongue:

[eggynack]

So your plant dog is a literal chia pet.:smalltongue:
Seems accurate enough. Overall, you're definitely more limited than you would be with the ability to cast anywhere, but you pretty much want the dog to be in the entangle anyway, so that he can beat face.

[Anachronity]

It's not that different from Web, and in my experience Web is pretty OP even as a 2nd level spell. I accidentally TPK'd my (admittedly not very optimized) 6th level party in what was supposed to be an easy encounter when a 4th-level gnoll sorcerer cast Web.

[ericgrau]

Good advice for low level in general is that you always have a backup ranged weapon. Always. Melee builds carry a sling or multiple javelins so they can apply strength to damage. And not arrows at low level.

Really it's not just entangle, but any low level encounter with a half ounce of creativity on the map layout requires a backup ranged weapon to have any sort of chance against others with backup ranged weapons or main ranged weapons or spells. At any decent distance with any kind of cover, even melee focused builds will do better with a sling. Those who pigeonholed their gear and leave cover will drop to negatives before their first melee attack.

As for portable house plants and what not, the spell description encourages the DM to alter the effects based on the nature of the entangling plants. It wouldn't be unreasonable for house plant or 3's only effect to be a thing is now stuck to your leg and you walk funny, but you are not entangled.

As for sleet storm, that's great even without starting with an entangle. By the time they walk out of it the party damage dealers killed the other unstormed foes anyway. Crowd control is good against crowds.

It's quite a decent spell but it's not OP. If foes are video game monsters that only know how to walk directly forward and spam one attack, then it's the DM's fault once you game the system. Ambushes, backup ranged weapons, special terrain, fire used in all kinds of ways, rope, readied actions to disrupt casting, fighting dirty, etc., etc. should be the norm not the exception.

[TuggyNE]

As for portable house plants and what not, the spell description encourages the DM to alter the effects based on the nature of the entangling plants. It wouldn't be unreasonable for house plant or 3's only effect to be a thing is now stuck to your leg and you walk funny, but you are not entangled.

The entangled condition already has rules for what happens if you're not entangled by a fixed object/immobilizing force (you take penalties but are not held in place), so there is neither need nor warrant to houserule here.

Well, unless you're specifically houseruling with the idea of nerfing an overly-powerful spell, as opposed to making the spell make sense. In this case, I don't think that's really necessary in general, and the weirdness of ignoring entangling plants just because they're not growing from the ground is … dubious.

[ericgrau]

The mechanism of the entanglement is that it wraps around you. It doesn't grow in size or strength. So in addition to not immobilizing you, it would be reasonable for the DM to say that a house plant entangling you is only a dangling weight. And in fact the soil is likely to fall off after a couple rounds making it more like a dangling rope. If you can get a few house plants to be mobile, then IMO you could fully entangle but not immobilize one creature, but not multiple creatures.

It's up to the DM. But at least saying that one house plant wrapping around a person has much of an effect is quite a bit of a stretch.

It would be pretty funny to make a druid based around portable potted plants though, for spells like entangle and transport via plants. If you can amass dozens and dozens and make it work well, then kudos and lols to you. There's also plant growth (impedes movement), animate plants and speak with plants (leave your innocent looking potted spies everywhere!).

[ryu]

Except here's the thing: As previously stated we have full and blatant rules for exactly what entangling by a plant not attached to the ground does. To not give it that effect for any reason is pure house-rule.

[ericgrau]

It's not a house rule when it's part of the spell rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm):


Note: The effects of the spell may be altered somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling plants.

Also the way the spell works is only:


Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled.

If you're gonna say this can wrap around your leg and hinder you significantly, I'm not buying it:
http://img4-2.realsimple.timeinc.net/images/0903/potted-flowers_300.jpg

[ryu]

It's not a house rule when it's part of the spell rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm):


Also the way the spell works is only:

If you're gonna say this can wrap around your leg and hinder you significantly, I'm not buying it

As I've stated the effect does differ, but in an already RAW predefined manner that tuggy pointed out earlier.

[137beth]

Just to clarify, the DMG says this on page 76:

"For purposes of spells and other special effects, all slimes, molds, and fungi are treated as plants."

Huh, learn something every day:smallamused: Yet another way in which D&D and reality differ.

[me_maikey]

Huh, learn something every day:smallamused: Yet another way in which D&D and reality differ.

You are attacked by a slime and X monsters.
I cast entangle on the slime itself, capturing the other monsters >:).


An the combination pot plants + plant growth could also grow their roots into the ground, after which entangle should work (in that spot)

[ryu]

You are attacked by a slime and X monsters.
I cast entangle on the slime itself, capturing the other monsters >:).


An the combination pot plants + plant growth could also grow their roots into the ground, after which entangle should work (in that spot)

Isn't the slime also entangled? Best part is it can't escape the area under ANY circumstances.

[ericgrau]

As I've stated the effect does differ, but in an already RAW predefined manner that tuggy pointed out earlier.

Having a rule on a matter doesn't mean having every rule on a matter. That's like saying since an umbrella protects against rain you are immune to lightning strikes.

If a house plant wraps around your leg, then you have a house plant dangling from your leg. And the soil is quick to break the stem or fall off. If there was some kind of plant growing effect or if you cast plant growth first, then it might be different.

[ryu]

Having a rule on a matter doesn't mean having every rule on a matter. That's like saying since an umbrella protects against rain you are immune to lightning strikes.

If a house plant wraps around your leg, then you have a house plant dangling from your leg. And the soil is quick to break the stem or fall off. If there was some kind of plant growing effect or if you cast plant growth first, then it might be different.

Ah but that's just it. When there is only one actual rule relevant to the subject having a relevant rule to the subject does, by definition, mean you have all rules relevant to the subject. Further lightning and rain are separate phenomena that can occur together. Lightning can happen in a snow storm or a blizzard for instance. It's also entirely possible to have rain without any lightning at all. Even ignoring that altogether one mimics the dampen effect of prestidigitation repeatedly over a wide area for a period of time, and the other does a few D6 of lightning damage. Those are entirely different effects to defend against.

[137beth]

You are attacked by a slime and X monsters.
I cast entangle on the slime itself, capturing the other monsters >:).


An the combination pot plants + plant growth could also grow their roots into the ground, after which entangle should work (in that spot)

Well Slime Wave (MotW/Defenders of Faith/FC1/Complete Divine/SpC) is a druid spell, after all:smalltongue:

[Incanur]

The slime interaction is pretty darn funny. The spell doesn't give the plants a save or any way to resist. I never thought of that before. RAW, it's a neat way to mess with plant, slime, and fungi foes.