Flyby attack and readied action

[Renen]

Question: flying opponent flies up to me, eldritch blasts me, and flies away with flyby attack. What happens if I have a readied action to move away upon him trying to blast? Does he have to move to me and blast me? Or can he cancel the attack and just decide to fly away?
In other words, can he change his actions in the middle of executing them if I suddenly become an un viable targed (outta range)

[avr]

The triggering characters actions continue after your readied action, but I see no reason to interpret this as mind control - the triggering character should be able to choose their actions as normal.

[OldTrees1]

You can only trigger readied actions in response to events, not in response to intent(unless with detect thoughts).

So you could ready an action for
A) when they move into range to attack you
B) OR when they blast you
C) OR ...

A readied action happens before the action it interrupts.

In case A you would move right before they got into range. After you move they continue their Move action. Flyby Attack allows them to take a Standard action at any time during their Move Action.
In case B you would move right before they used their blast. Your movement was caused by their blast so they are already committed to their blast.

[Renen]

So in A they would be able to keep moving and then blast me.

But in B... do they just uselessly blast in my direction but can still keep moving afterwards? Or are they obliged to move in range (if they can) and then blast me?

[DeltaEmil]

So in A they would be able to keep moving and then blast me.

But in B... do they just uselessly blast in my direction but can still keep moving afterwards? Or are they obliged to move in range (if they can) and then blast me?

With B), the eldritch blaster shoots uselessly (if the target moved away out of range) and can then finish its move remaining during the flyby attack.

[Curmudgeon]

Your movement was caused by their blast so they are already committed to their blast.
No, they're not committed.
Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your readied action finishes before the triggering event gets far enough along to actually execute. After that, the other character continues his actions with complete freedom to choose what to do at that time. (As avr noted, there's no mind control.)

The only exception to this freedom is the special case of counterspellcasting, where the interruption does happen after the action is far enough along to be committed.

[Renen]

Question: how would you fight a flying warlock with 60ft range a d higer speed than you? Cant charge him due to him always ending turn outta sight. Cant move fast enough to catch up... any attempt to get him to end turn within range is answered by only moving and readying an action to move away from any sort of charge. Attacks are only used if said opponent can end turn somewhere where I cant charge.


Maybe readying an action to get in range upon him getting close enough? He auto passes tumble, but does it only slow his speed to half for that one square? If not...

Or if it provokes an AoO, then I can fly up (they have 60ft reach, I have 60 ft fly speed) and trigger an AoO every time?

Halp!

[OldTrees1]

No, they're not committed. Your readied action finishes before the triggering event gets far enough along to actually execute. After that, the other character continues his actions with complete freedom to choose what to do at that time. (As avr noted, there's no mind control.)

The only exception to this freedom is the special case of counterspellcasting, where the interruption does happen after the action is far enough along to be committed.

I read it differently


you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

1) You only use a readied action if the trigger has occurred.
2) The trigger is a specific action
3) Readied actions take place before their trigger
4) After the readied action, "he(The other character) continues his actions ('assuming he is still capable of doing so')".
So if a readied action does not prevent the triggering action's completion, then the interrupted character continues with the interrupted/triggering action.

[Curmudgeon]

So if a readied action does not prevent the triggering action's completion, then the interrupted character continues with the interrupted/triggering action.
That's not what the rule says, however. Note the plural: "... he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." The other character can choose their actions freely when their turn continues, with no mandate to use that one specific action which they had previously intended. There is no requirement, either in Ready or in D&D in general, to have declared actions which must be executed (barring specific exceptions like the Stunning Fist feat).

[Renen]

Thoughts on my earlier questions?

[Curmudgeon]

Against a creature you can't reach in melee, you need a attack that works at range. Or you need to be able to avoid any attacks. Both would be good. :smallcool:

[Fitz10019]

That's not what the rule says, however. Note the plural: "... he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." The other character can choose their actions freely when their turn continues, with no mandate to use that one specific action which they had previously intended. There is no requirement, either in Ready or in D&D in general, to have declared actions which must be executed (barring specific exceptions like the Stunning Fist feat).

In my take, I can declare to drop prone when the archer fires at me. The archer fires at me, I drop prone (in time to get the AC bonus v. that arrow), the archer's shot is not retroactively cancelled. The archer is still free to make choices for his actions (move action and free actions), but he can't choose not to take the shot. It's already happened.

Similarly, I can declare to 'disarm' someone of any item he draws. When he draws a scroll, that scroll winds up in my hand, and he's out one move action. You wouldn't say that I took the scroll out of his scroll case.

That's my 2 cents.

[Lord of Shadows]

Question: how would you fight a flying warlock with 60ft range a d higher speed than you?

Answer: with ranged spells and missile weapons. Use a Readied action yourself to wait until he is visible/within range/etc. Make your trigger to be "when he starts casting." If he keeps moving behind some kind of cover (as you said, 'out of sight,' move into a position that negates his cover. Also keep a close eye on the warlock's action usage. Readying an action is itself a Standard action. He can't Attack (standard) and Ready (standard) in the same round, unless his attack is something quicker, like a Quickened spell.

Sounds like you've gotten yourself into a real Foobar.

Plus, you won't get any Attacks of Opportunity unless he is in a threatened square at the same time he does something to provoke one. Sounds like he is too smart to make that mistake, but maybe if he had enemies on more than one side it would be slightly more possible. Of course, then he is likely to just pop out (if high enough level).

[Curmudgeon]

In my take, I can declare to drop prone when the archer fires at me. The archer fires at me, I drop prone (in time to get the AC bonus v. that arrow), the archer's shot is not retroactively cancelled.
That's not how it works.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. Your readied action is triggered by the archer aiming at you and getting ready to fire, but happens before they fire. There is no retroactive cancellation going on. The archer can decide to still take the shot, or do any other actions which the game allows.

[OldTrees1]

That's not how it works. Your readied action is triggered by the archer aiming at you and getting ready to fire, but happens before they fire. There is no retroactive cancellation going on. The archer can decide to still take the shot, or do any other actions which the game allows.

So if I ready an action with the trigger of "when enemy archer Y looses an arrow" you are claiming that time rewinds, I take my action before the arrow is loosed, and then the archer can decide not to loose the arrow?

If not, then what are you claiming with regard to the specific trigger of "when enemy archer Y looses an arrow"?

[Curmudgeon]

So if I ready an action with the trigger of "when enemy archer Y looses an arrow" you are claiming that time rewinds, I take my action before the arrow is loosed, and then the archer can decide not to loose the arrow?

If not, then what are you claiming with regard to the specific trigger of "when enemy archer Y looses an arrow"?
If your trigger is the archer loosing the arrow, you're actually making the trigger be "when the archer is about to loose the arrow"; that's the way the Ready rules work. You can specify any action your character can perceive as the trigger, but it's really the anticipation of that action happening that makes your readied action kick off. In D&D there's no separable action (barring special abilities) between when the archer fires and when the damage occurs. In fact, rolling the attack and damage dice together is recommended in the "Speeding Up Combat" sidebar (Player's Handbook, page 142). If the trigger were to happen after the archer fires, the damage (or miss) would already be in the past.

[OldTrees1]

If your trigger is the archer loosing the arrow, you're actually making the trigger be "when the archer is about to loose the arrow"; that's the way the Ready rules work. You can specify any action your character can perceive as the trigger, but it's really the anticipation of that action happening that makes your readied action kick off. In D&D there's no separable action (barring special abilities) between when the archer fires and when the damage occurs. In fact, rolling the attack and damage dice together is recommended in the "Speeding Up Combat" sidebar (Player's Handbook, page 142). If the trigger were to happen after the archer fires, the damage (or miss) would already be in the past.

So you are arguing that a readied action cannot interrupt an action in progress? If so then you cannot take a readied action in response to the standard action in the middle of the Flyby Attack action.

On the other hand if you can interrupt an action in progress, then you can take a readied action in response to a committed action.

[Renen]

Quite the riddle:

Battle map


. . . . .*********. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . .*********. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .*******. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .!!!!!!!!!. . . .
******. . .*****. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!. . .
******. . . . . . . @ @ @ @ @ @ . . . . . . . . . .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. . . .
****. . . . . . . . @ % % % % @ . . . . . . . . . . .!!!!!!!!!!!. . . . .
**. . . . . . . . . @ % % % % @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
. . . . . . . . . . .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .!!!!!!
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ % % % @ . . . *******
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ % % % @ . . . *******
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ % % % @ . . . . .****
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* is a wall
@ is a 10ft dip in ceiling and floor level
% is a 30ft dip
!! is Lava (Which the bastard is immune to)


I have 60 (average)ft fly speed. He has 80 (good)
I can kill im in one pounce (provided decent rolls), but flyby and all the obstacles make it HAAAAAAAAARD.
Any time he ISNT in position to shoot and duck in cover, he can ready an action to move away.
Any time i try to wait for him to close in and ready an action to move towards him when he shoot me, he is close enough to something to move outta line of sight.

[Curmudgeon]

So you are arguing that a readied action cannot interrupt an action in progress? If so then you cannot take a readied action in response to the standard action in the middle of the Flyby Attack action.
Practically speaking, no, you don't get to interrupt that action; it either happens or it doesn't, depending on their response to your readied action. The way D&D interrupts work is that you just get to act before the action would take place, barring special exceptions to the normal sequence of actions in a turn. Flyby Attack is already a special exception, wherein it lets the flying creature take their standard action during their move action. However, you don't get to actually interrupt either of those with Ready; you just act before the flyer's standard action. That you're interrupting their move action is due to the special exception granted by Flyby Attack; your use of Ready doesn't add any new (real) interrupts.

[OldTrees1]

Practically speaking, no, you don't get to interrupt that action; it either happens or it doesn't, depending on their response to your readied action. The way D&D interrupts work is that you just get to act before the action would take place, barring special exceptions to the normal sequence of actions in a turn. Flyby Attack is already a special exception, wherein it lets the flying creature take their standard action during their move action. However, you don't get to actually interrupt either of those with Ready; you just act before the flyer's standard action. That you're interrupting their move action is due to the special exception granted by Flyby Attack; your use of Ready doesn't add any new (real) interrupts.

Could you support your claim with text? It seems strange that a readied action could not happen inside a charge action but an AoO can.

Furthermore the quote you used earlier said that readied actions need to specify a trigger condition not a trigger action. This implies to me that your interpretation is more restrictive than RAW.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That map is pretty much designed for this 'lock to be annoying. Aside from the difficult/uneven terrain, the choke points are actually too wide for your taste... but they're workable. Also, this is a very good reason to invest in a potion of fly or Wings of Air if you're cheap. Maneuverability is killing you even more than the terrain; just being able to hover/ascend/turn like a good flier would be a godsend. That said, we have what we have.

Do you have reach? If so how much?
How high is the ceiling? Is that the same around the walled entrances/"doorways"?
Is anyone else around?
Is there "more map," where you could draw him out to more cramped terrain?

Assuming the walls and openings are equally high, no one else is around, the ceiling is 30' (in normal spots), your reach is 10' or less, and you want to stay in this area, here's what I would do:

0. Have a decent climb check; you're a charger, so I assume you have high strength.
1. Perch yourself on a corner of one of the walled in areas (top left or bottom right). Make sure you have total cover unless he enters that local area.
2. Sitting there, ready an action to move directly behind the 'lock (i.e. you get between him and the fastest way out of the alcove) once he moves into your sight range, i.e. in the little alcove.
3a. If he lacks tumble, he'll continue his movement out of the room, provoke an AoO, fire, and then continue moving back into the lava.
3a. If he has tumble, he can use it, but by my count it'll eat up too much movement to turn around, tumble around you, and get back into the lava if he's starting from that location, meaning he's out in the open on your turn. So, you can probably move and attack, given he's had to use up a lot of movement.
3c. If he was dumb and didn't move, full attack then fall*.
4. Get back to the perch. Unfortunately this means you're not readying, so he'll get a free flyby EB on you.

So... you're trading two EBs from him for one AoO from you in likely circumstances. But that might be enough given you're probably a big brute and he's being a little wuss.

*The way I see it you can take your actions in whatever order you want, so you full attack, fail to move enough, then take the falling damage. This *should* be a worthwhile trade unless this place's ceilings are ridiculously high... in which case you have even more problems.

Edit: Of course if you had a good ranged option that would be ideal.

Other solutions with more favorable circumstances:If you could draw him out to a place where there's an actual door, and then close the door on him once he enters the room, he's in trouble.

If the ceilings are actually low (at least relative to your reach), you don't need to do the climbing stuff. Just stay on the ground. It's even tougher for him to tumble out, so you're getting that AoO.

If you have any sort of control ability like stand still, improved trip or the like, you may only need 1 AoO to ruin his day and prevent him from moving around.

[Curmudgeon]

Furthermore the quote you used earlier said that readied actions need to specify a trigger condition not a trigger action. This implies to me that your interpretation is more restrictive than RAW.
There is no difference here; both "condition" and "action" are used to describe the trigger:
To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. I use the terms interchangeably because the RAW uses them in exactly that way.

[Fitz10019]

... I can declare to 'disarm' someone of any item he draws. When he draws a scroll, that scroll winds up in my hand, and he's out one move action. You wouldn't say that I took the scroll out of his scroll case.

So, Curmudgeon, could you address my second example? Is it impossible/illegal?

Rules or no, I think it should be possible to ready an action based on the result of another's action, like a door being opened, and not just an interrupt to an action.

[Deophaun]

Could you support your claim with text? It seems strange that a readied action could not happen inside a charge action but an AoO can.
A readied action can most certainly happen in the middle of a charge (" I ready an action to move when so-and-so moves within 20 feet"), but it cannot happen in the middle of an attack, which is what is trying to happen here. Why can't it happen in the middle of an attack? Because the attack is the attack roll. There are no other parts where you can insert an action. There's no loose phase, or swing phase, or stab phase of the action. There is just a roll, and it either happens or it does not.

[OldTrees1]

A readied action can most certainly happen in the middle of a charge (" I ready an action to move when so-and-so moves within 20 feet"), but it cannot happen in the middle of an attack, which is what is trying to happen here. Why can't it happen in the middle of an attack? Because the attack is the attack roll. There are no other parts where you can insert an action. There's no loose phase, or swing phase, or stab phase of the action. There is just a roll, and it either happens or it does not.

I like this^ argument. You are saying an attack cannot be broken into multiple steps and thus there is no place for an interruption. Rules or no, I prefer this position.

Some author in Oriental Adventures 3.0 seems to think differently: Grappling Block is a feat that allows an Disarm AoO once per round "when you would normally be hit by a melee weapon".

[Curmudgeon]

So, Curmudgeon, could you address my second example? Is it impossible/illegal?

Rules or no, I think it should be possible to ready an action based on the result of another's action, like a door being opened, and not just an interrupt to an action.
Yes, you can make the trigger be the completion of the action: the rules use both action and conditon to describe triggers. A condition trigger means you would not have a chance to keep the action from happening, but could react after the condition was established. If you make the trigger a perceivable action (other than counterspelling) then your readied action always happens before the enemy's action. If you make the trigger a perceivable condition there's no similar preemption rule. So a trigger of when he draws an item (as you specified) means your readied action will happen beforehand, and he'll have a chance to draw (or do whatever else) afterward. If you instead use a trigger of him having a drawn item in hand you'll act immediately after that condition occurs.

Ready has no divination magic associated with it; it's just a plan you've mentally rehearsed, which you set into motion as soon as you perceive the triggering act or condition. So you could say your trigger is when the enemy charges, but you have no idea what action(s) the enemy is trying to take. If they move in a straight line and make a melee attack that could be a Charge, or it could instead be a move action followed by a standard action; all you know is what you perceive. Your trigger would actually be movement of 10+ feet in a straight line, or an attack at the end of movement in a straight line (whatever you pick). In that case you might be interrupting the enemy's attempt at a Charge action, but their actual D&D action assignment (in terms of what the rules allow) isn't set until it's accomplished. They might have intended to use a Charge special full-round action, but (because of your readied action) it ended up being a single or double move instead. When your action makes a Charge impossible, we know their movement wasn't part of a (now illegal) Charge action, so the movement must be something else that is legal for it to have been, like a single or double move instead. (You don't need a readied action to make that sort of disconnect between intent and outcome; some unseen slippery ground can also make a Charge illegal after movement has already begun. However, Ready is one of the most significant ways of changing the relationship between intent and actuality.)

[Deophaun]

Some author in Oriental Adventures 3.0 seems to think differently: Grappling Block is a feat that allows an Disarm AoO once per round "when you would normally be hit by a melee weapon".
That's fine. That's specific > general, and there are a few other things that do this as well (such as wings of cover). In fact, these are literally the exceptions that prove the rule; if you could always interrupt an attack, then there would be no reason for these things to call out that they interrupt attacks.