Crusader+Cleric+RKV= decent build?

[m149307]

I am trying to make a cleric build that can lockdown an opponent, as well as heal other party members (like the tanks). I came across this build idea, but was unsure of how good it is or how to make it. Anyone want to help?

[OldTrees1]

Yes it is good.
Choosing healing manuevers
Start with Martial Stance but switch to Thicket of Blades
Use your feats like you would for a lockdown character (save perhaps for 1 feat)
That 1 feat should be either Draconic Aura(Vigor) or Touch of Healing.

For spells I would consider protections against non damage threats(death ward for example) and the Delay Death spell for the occasional excessive damage.


Sidenote:
There is the option to take 1 level in Prestige Paladin and then take the Battle Blessing feat. This gives your Cleric all the Paladin only spells and quickens all spells that are found on the Paladin spell list. I used this for quickened cure spells.

[m149307]

I honestly don't know what type of feats would work for a lockdown character. This is my first time making this kind of character. And what type of weapon would be good for a lockdown type?

[Yorrin]

The basics of a lockdown character is to get a reach weapon and use Combat Reflexes and Standstill. You can further enhance this by things like Robiliar's Gambit, or Improved Trip, as well as increasing your base reach. It's covered pretty well in Personman's Guide to Melee. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Melee-Combos)

[m149307]

And where would spells come into play? or do I just use the spells per day on heals?

[Red Fel]

And where would spells come into play? or do I just use the spells per day on heals?

Oh, no no no no no, no no, no no no.

No.

Healing in combat is generally a terrible idea, and Crusader does it better anyway. Healing out of combat is more efficiently performed by wands. Keep one or two spells for emergency healing, but otherwise, your spells should be buffs.

Buff, my friend. Buff like crazy. Buff like the wind. Cleric gives you some truly outrageous buffs - use them. Use them all. If you want to go nuts, go with Divine Metamagic Persist and enjoy all-day buffs.

[m149307]

So wands over spells, and use my spells for buffing. Buff just myself, or are there good buffs for the entire party?

[Yorrin]

Buff, my friend. Buff like crazy. Buff like the wind. Cleric gives you some truly outrageous buffs - use them. Use them all. If you want to go nuts, go with Divine Metamagic Persist and enjoy all-day buffs.

This. This is where we get the term CoDzilla (more or less). Clerics can have so many powerful buff on themselves and/or their party that many types of encounters become almost trivial. Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, even Mass <ability boost spell> are all excellent force multipliers.


So wands over spells

Only for healing. And even then if you've got a spare feat pick up Draconic Aura: Vigor to cut your healing needs in half.

[Red Fel]

This handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4330) recommends a good spell selection, for Cleric or Paladin (or Prestige Paladin) entry. It also suggests more specific builds and feats.

[m149307]

Thanks red. Ok, what kind of stats should I be looking for? I currently have:
Str: 10
Dex: 8
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 19
Cha: 16

[Ikeren]

You need some dex and possibly some intelligence for a lockdown build: with only 3 positive stats, it's going to be a challenge, since combat reflexes requires dex 13 and combat expertise--> improved trip requires int 13. You're a melee, so you want some Str. If you can't adjust your stats, try going:

Str: 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 8 --- put your first 3 levels up into dex for combat reflexes.

Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV10/X5 is standard.

Human Feat: Stand Still
Level 1 Feat: Power Attack
Level 3 Feat: Extend Spell
Level 6 Feat: Extra Granted Maneuver
Level 9 Feat: Quicken Spell
Level 12 Feat: Combat Reflexes
Level 15 Feat:
Level 18 Feat:

If you can get Str 14-Dex14-Con14-Int14-Wis16-Cha 8, feats look like:
Human Feat: Combat Reflexes
Level 1 Feat: Combat Expertise
Level 3 Feat: Improved Trip
Level 6 Feat: Stand Still
Level 9 Feat: Knockdown
Level 12 Feat: Quicken Spell
Level 15 Feat: Extra Granted Maneuver
Level 18 Feat: Extend Spell

Weapons: Use something with reach + armor spikes. When you AoO, use stand still to prevent them from continuing to move.

You want the thicket of blade stance. Otherwise, there are lots of good options for your maneuvers.

Heal other party members with Wands, maneuvers (martial spirit, crusader's strike, revitalizing strike), and as a last ditch effort, spell slots.

[m149307]

Ok, and if I get more feats than normal? (I get a the feats for level one, then a feat for 2, 4, 6, etc. House rules.)
Also, my point buy is 30, with everything after 18 costing two points (meaning the jump from 18-20 is 4 points. Not the traditional point buy system)

[Ikeren]

You should post restrictions and house rules in the opening post to save yourself time for back and forth.

14-14-14-14-16-8 is 34 points in normal point buy, 32 in yours, probably. Drop con by 2 and put your 4th and 8th level attributes into it?

Extra feats; check the lockdown guide in my signature. Exotic weapon proficiency: spiked chain is definitely an option, as are a lot of other things.

[lunar2]

nobody thought to mention that there is a reason the forum talks about the ruby knight Windicator?

[m149307]

Windicator???

[Doc_Maynot]

You know, Ruby Knight Win-dicator

[m149307]

Ohh... I see. And how is that a thing? (Forgive my newbness)

[Doc_Maynot]

Full BAB, 8/10th spellcasting advancement, Full Initiator advancement
Lets one convert Standard actions into swifts (which are damn useful to Initiators)
Lets a Crusader choose an expended maneuver to recover and get it immediately
Access to Devoted Spirit and White Raven, both exceptionally good Disciplines

[m149307]

I knew about the swift action thing, that was the number one reason why I wanted this build. And since I have access to more feats, it should be even better than usual, no?

[Anlashok]

Lets one convert Standard actions into swifts (which are damn useful to Initiators)

Spending a standard action to gain a swift action is almost never a good deal. It's why most people houserule Impetus into a free action.

[m149307]

But if I can switch stances+get god knows how many AoO, it doesn't matter about that one standard action.

[aetherealGamer]

I believe the windicator part comes from the RKV's level 7 ability, Divine Impetus, which lets you convert turn undead attempts into swift actions. This combined with Divine metamagic : Quicken lets you convert 5 turn undead attempts into the ability to cast a spell as many times per round as you can pay for it. Couple this a boat load of turn undead attempt boosting things basically lets you break the game's action economy and cast almost your entire spell list in one turn with the right build (Charisma boosting items, night sticks, extra turning etc.)

[Doc_Maynot]

The issue with that is that is as previously mentioned (Su) abilities are Standard Actions.

[aetherealGamer]

whoops, you are right... Sorry

[Anlashok]

But if I can switch stances+get god knows how many AoO, it doesn't matter about that one standard action.

Take a counter on the enemy's turn then on your turn spend a standard to change stance? Still not convinced.


I believe the windicator part comes from the RKV's level 7 ability, Divine Impetus, which lets you convert turn undead attempts into swift actions. This combined with Divine metamagic : Quicken lets you convert 5 turn undead attempts into the ability to cast a spell as many times per round as you can pay for it. Couple this a boat load of turn undead attempt boosting things basically lets you break the game's action economy and cast almost your entire spell list in one turn with the right build (Charisma boosting items, night sticks, extra turning etc.)

That would be really cool and broken as all hell... if it weren't for the fact that you needed to spend a standard action on each turn you give up.

I mean really the best you could do with this is use it to get around time stop's restriction on attacking enemies, which is still pretty damn good.

Divine impetus is honestly not very good unless you're houseruling it into a free action.

Though keep in mind that's not actually a bad houserule to make, given that it's arguably the RAI for divine impetus. I have trouble believing that even WoTC is dumb enough to think spending a turn and a standard to gain a swift is a good idea.

[m149307]

The issue with that is that is as previously mentioned (Su) abilities are Standard Actions.
Yeah, so it is impossible to break unless by houserules.
Ok, so feats I am going to take:
Extra Turning, Extra Granted Manuver, Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer, Robilar's Gambit, Defensive sweep, DMM Persist, Stand Still, and Draconic Aura (Vigor). Am I being too greedy with the feats?

[Svata]

You need Extend Spell and Persistent Spell for DMM Presistent Spell.

[m149307]

Damn, ok. So 11 Feats so far.

[lunar2]

Damn, ok. So 11 Feats so far.

you get one at one, and one at each even level, right? that's 11, so you're set, unless you want to be human.

[m149307]

Sorry to keep asking questions, but how does the leveling of the DMM Persistent Spell work? How many Turning uses would I have to use?

[OldTrees1]

Sorry to keep asking questions, but how does the leveling of the DMM Persistent Spell work? How many Turning uses would I have to use?
7

Persist Spell would increase a spell by 6 levels. However you are using DMM so you pay 1+6 turn attempts instead.

[m149307]

So is it worth using then? and that is only for level 1 spells, right? level 2 would be 8, and so on, right?

[DarkSonic1337]

So is it worth using then? and that is only for level 1 spells, right? level 2 would be 8, and so on, right?

No it's still 7. You use 1 turn attempt plus an additional one for each INCREASE the metamagic would cause.

[m149307]

So, 7 no matter what spell level. Not bad, but I would need a ton of turning to be able to use the build and those spells. Any suggestions on how to get as much turning as possible?

[Doc_Maynot]

One word, Nightsticks
Source: Libris Mortis aka The Book of Bad latin

[m149307]

I am guessing that my DM will rule only one per day. Unless he doesn't know what is does, which is very likely.

[OldTrees1]

I am guessing that my DM will rule only one per day. Unless he doesn't know what is does, which is very likely.

Limiting it to 1 nightstick is very reasonable (and might even be RAW). You will still have plently of persisted spells.

Something you can do is the standard "get lots of turning pools". (Although avoid Dragonlance domains. People keep forgetting that clerics can't take some of those domains)


Azurin Cleric 4 (Azurin, Cloistered)/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/RKV+
or
Cleric 4 (Cloistered, Destroy Undead)/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/RKV+
Either path with double your Persisted spells since they have 2 turning pools that explicitly can be used with [Divine] feats.

[m149307]

And for the persisted spells, which would you guys recommend?

[Firechanter]

RKV is very MAD, since you need almost every attribute, especially if you want to go Lockdown. I would assign a PB32 as follows:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12

(You might even consider dumping Int to boost Con or Cha. You don't want to dump Cha because you need those TU attempts.)

Secondly, as has been mentioned already, negotiate with your DM to get Divine Imputes "once per round as a free action". If the DM sticks to the default rule (i.e. Standard Action activation), I'd only take 2 or 5 RKV levels. Trading a Standard for a Swift is not worth losing another Caster Level.
For the following, I'm assuming the 1/round Free Action solution.

Thirdly, I'm not convinced that the Persist route, awesome as it is for regular or cloistered Clerics, is necessary or optimal for the RKV. Normally you persist stuff like Divine Power, which you won't need since RKV is Full BAB anyway. Also, DMMP goes through your TUs like crazy, and you will want a lot of TUs for different things.

However, _if_ you go the Persist route, good combat spells are Divine Favour (for low levels), Righteous Might (to increase Reach), Recitation (awesome), and a party-save-boosting spell I forget the name of.

Alternatively, you might go DMM Quicken and use the Divine Impetus to blast out 3 spells per round until you run dry. Again, will go through your TUs very quickly if your DM is sane enough to disallow Nightstick stacking.

Last not least, you could forego DMM entirely and use your TUs mainly on your RKV abilities, and maybe also take a Devotion feat or two that you can fuel with TUs. Travel Devotion is especially awesome, as it allows Swift Action Movement. Law Devotion is also great.

When you mix your Base classes, i.e. Crusader and Cleric, note that there are two natural options: either take Crs1/Clr4 for least spellcasting losses, or take Crs3/Clr2 for optimum Stance progression (you get Thicket of Blades at level 6, but lose a lot of spellcasting).
So if you look at level 12, when Divine Impetus comes onlines, you'd be casting as either a 9th level or 7th level Cleric.

[Beardbarian]

Correct me please, but RAW metamagic feats don't have prerequisites

If you can use flaws i suggest this build:

Azurin Commoner 1 (Extend Spell/Persist Spell/Quickened Spell/????) be sure to take the Delicious flaw (Dragon Compendium)

Progress with Crusader1/Cleric (Azurin ACF) 8/Ruby Knight Venticator 10

You loose 4 CL but you gain the Delicious Flaw aggro ability

[adriana]

Full BAB, 8/10th spellcasting advancement, Full Initiator advancement
Lets one convert Standard actions into swifts (which are damn useful to Initiators)
Lets a Crusader choose an expended maneuver to recover and get it immediately
Access to Devoted Spirit and White Raven, both exceptionally good Disciplines

This was a highly debated subjet in my most recent post here Ryby knight vindicator and Divine Impetus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352265-Ryby-knoght-vindicator-and-Divine-Impetus&p=17539193&viewfull=1#post17539193) This specific post brought up a good point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17539193&postcount=29).

Here is the part I tend to agree with.


Rules as Written is standard action to swift action. (Supported by it being Su without an explicit action.)

Rules as Intended is free action turn undead to swift action. (Supported by the expectation that it being a standard action is a typo.)

Rules as Common Sense is once per round free action turn undead to swift action. (Supported by the use in the examples, and by what one might expect from similar class abilities.)

That was my first interpretation until I learned that SU abilities were a standard action. Otherwise it really plays down that ability which has become a hallmark of the class.

Since I plan on going with a cleric crusader RKV gestalt build I would not go RKV if it turned a standard to a swift.