Which are the more mundane-looking ToB disciplines?

[Larkas]

As the title says, I'd like to know which of the 9 disciplines are the most mundane-looking. I'm basically trying to make a character with the least "overt" effects. That doesn't mean "weak effects", but I can't really go wrong with ToB, can I?

[Red Fel]

As the title says, I'd like to know which of the 9 disciplines are the most mundane-looking. I'm basically trying to make a character with the least "overt" effects. That doesn't mean "weak effects", but I can't really go wrong with ToB, can I?

Frankly, with the exception of Desert Wind (things catching fire), Shadow Hand (suddenly there's a shadow wrapped around a guy's throat, I guess?) and Devoted Spirit (I hit that guy with a sword, and now this guy isn't bleeding, what?), most of the disciplines don't have much in the way of "overt" effects.

Iron Heart is just about being really good with a sword. (Yes, I parried a laser. So what?) White Raven is just about being really good at commanding your allies. (Yes, I told you to attack now. No, I don't care if it's not your turn. Six seconds, go!) Diamond Mind is just about having really good reflexes. (Yeah, so I can perform twelve seconds of actions in six seconds. I'm good at concentrating, okay?) Setting Sun is about being really good at judo. And Tiger Claw is about cutting a dude.

And Stone Dragon... Has hammers.

Anyway, yeah. I don't think, other than the three I started with, any of them look particularly not-mundane.

[Yorrin]

...Desert Wind...Shadow Hand...Devoted Spirit

Anyway, yeah. I don't think, other than the three I started with, any of them look particularly not-mundane.

And even then a lot of Devoted Spirit isn't too crazy. Other than the healing of yourself and allies there's nothing "flashy" or overt about it.

[Xerlith]

And even then a lot of Devoted Spirit isn't too crazy. Other than the healing of yourself and allies there's nothing "flashy" or overt about it.

I always played it as "He hit that guy in such an awesome way I can't just lie and bleed here, I want to contribute as well" instead of "Ohh, siphoned HPs".

So it can be done in a nonmagical way as well. :smallwink:

[Xefas]

If you were, for example, planning on running a campaign where you wanted mundane martial disciplines to be front-and-center, you might consider using the Wound and Vitality point variant from Unearthed Arcana - then have Devoted Spirit only replenish Vitality points. Suddenly it's the 'inspirational' discipline, not the 'magic healing' discipline, and you can have the party healer also be a swordsman.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The least "magical" disciplines, in rough order:

Setting Sun: It's really hard to think of one that's the least bit magical. It's all moving around mundane-ly, throwing people, counter attacking... Even the capstone strike is just a high-speed mundane trick.

Diamond Mind: It's just being reflexive, having good will power, and hitting super hard / in the exact right spot. Nothing overtly magical at all.

Tiger Claw: Jump around, move in short bursts really fast, hit super duper hard and/or hit really frequently. No magic here, either.

Iron Heart: Other than Iron Heart Surge, which can shout down spells, nothing at all magical. Some might claim the Lightning Throw strike gets damn close to being magical.

White Raven: Nothing at all is fluffed as magic, but some of it does make you wonder. WR Tactics giving a full extra turn to somebody strains my disbelief a bit, and the Warmaster's Charge is just plain silly if you don't write it off as magic.

Stone Dragon: Also almost entirely mundane, but I really can't overlook the whole "create a minor earthquake" or various abilities that drop a creature's speed (in one case, down to 0 ft, no save)...but only if they're on the ground. It's not like Hamstring Attack for sneak attack where they give a good mundane logic for it. They just...get stuck to the ground.

As for the other three... the best stuff in Devoted Spirit isn't magical (Thicket of Blades, the law and chaos stances, Shield Block/Counter, Defensive Rebuke, Foehammer...). Shadow Hand...has a good mix of magical and non-magical, with some of the best stuff in each category. The best of Shadow Hand is defensive/utility more so than offensive (until the 8th and 9th level strikes) though, so it's not one of the more powerful disciplines anyway. Desert Wind's magic is basically just the fire stuff (sucks, except for Distracting Ember and Searing Charge) and Leaping Flame (decent). Of course, "fire stuff" is 90% of the discipline, and it largely sucks. DW is widely considered one of the worst disciplines (it or Stone Dragon) despite being so magical. Because it's magical fire, no one cares.

[Chronos]

It depends on what you mean by "mundane". Setting sun throws might not look magical, but they do look awfully flashy.

[Gemini476]

Let me play devil's advocate here, for a moment. Or just be contrarian. Either one. (Personally I think that quite a few things are restricted to magic when they shouldn't be, but yeah.)


The least "magical" disciplines, in rough order:

Setting Sun: It's really hard to think of one that's the least bit magical. It's all moving around mundane-ly, throwing people, counter attacking... Even the capstone strike is just a high-speed mundane trick.
Well, you can throw stuff that weighs more than your maximum load. Infinitely more, in fact, as long as you can trip them. See also some stuff I'll bring up in my comments on White Raven.


Diamond Mind: It's just being reflexive, having good will power, and hitting super hard / in the exact right spot. Nothing overtly magical at all.
Save replacers aren't magical? "Oh hey, let me Wish you into the sun-" "Lolno, I get +20 to the save with this maneuver. Git gud."
Or Blindsense? Or being able to will away the effects of Mummy Rot with a Concentration check? Or taking a move action in exchange for a swift action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm)? Or being able to make mindless creatures feel doubt? And Time Stands Still is just a more specific application of White Raven Tactics.


Tiger Claw: Jump around, move in short bursts really fast, hit super duper hard and/or hit really frequently. No magic here, either.
It's roughly as mundane as the Barbarian's Rage, yeah. (That is to say, not very.) It also frequently references specific bodyparts, which could be amusing when you fight one of the many foes without one of the relevant ones. Like legs, necks, arms or a face. On an Ooze, Elemental, or Aberration.


Iron Heart: Other than Iron Heart Surge, which can shout down spells, nothing at all magical. Some might claim the Lightning Throw strike gets damn close to being magical.
The only non-mundane part of Lightning Throw is how your weapon returns to your hand at the end of your turn, but yeah. A good way to imagine it is as a boomerang, I guess.
Iron Heart Surge is rather mundane in the RAI if not in the RAW - I imagine that the "shuts down spells" part was meant to stop stuff like Acid Arrow or Fear, rather than the more esoteric things that slipped through due to it being horribly edited. Luckily the "duration of 1 or more rounds" part should stop you from doing some truly degenerate stuff like the infamous "turn off the sun" 'trick'. And also anything with a duration measured in minutes or hours or so, but I suspect that that's up to interpretation.


White Raven: Nothing at all is fluffed as magic, but some of it does make you wonder. WR Tactics giving a full extra turn to somebody strains my disbelief a bit, and the Warmaster's Charge is just plain silly if you don't write it off as magic.
Since everyone's turn takes place during the same 6 seconds, I imagine that WRTactics and such are just the Initiator optimizing everyone's actions during the turn by barking out orders.
Warmaster's Charge is much the same, but also one of the few ways to actually have your entire party charge the enemy at once in 3.5. There's not a lot out there that lets you synchronize your movement like that, beyond delaying initiative.
Really, if you complain about immediate-action movement you might as well put in Mirrored Pursuit as one of the magical things Setting Sun has. Or Shifting Defense. Or Stalking Shadow.


Stone Dragon: Also almost entirely mundane, but I really can't overlook the whole "create a minor earthquake" or various abilities that drop a creature's speed (in one case, down to 0 ft, no save)...but only if they're on the ground. It's not like Hamstring Attack for sneak attack where they give a good mundane logic for it. They just...get stuck to the ground.
Earthstrike Quake is pretty explicitly non-mundane, what with channeling ki into the ground with a mighty strike and all. It's supernatural in the Stunning Fist way, where it fits under the physics-defying part of (Ex)traordinary.
The ones that remove actions and stop movement are pretty clearly just staggering and disorienting the foe with a hard hit to the , though. I mean, here's the fluff for Stone Vise (the movement-stopping one):

You make a crushing blow that staggers your opponent, leaving it unable to move.

By making a powerful, focused blow, you leave your opponent unable to move. The crushing weight of your blow forces it to waste a precious moment regaining its footing.


As for the other three... the best stuff in Devoted Spirit isn't magical (Thicket of Blades, the law and chaos stances, Shield Block/Counter, Defensive Rebuke, Foehammer...). Shadow Hand...has a good mix of magical and non-magical, with some of the best stuff in each category. The best of Shadow Hand is defensive/utility more so than offensive (until the 8th and 9th level strikes) though, so it's not one of the more powerful disciplines anyway. Desert Wind's magic is basically just the fire stuff (sucks, except for Distracting Ember and Searing Charge) and Leaping Flame (decent). Of course, "fire stuff" is 90% of the discipline, and it largely sucks. DW is widely considered one of the worst disciplines (it or Stone Dragon) [i]despite being so magical. Because it's magical fire, no one cares.

I agree with most of this, although the Law and Chaos stances are pretty non-mundane and even have alignment descriptors.

But yeah, the supernatural stuff is in the Crusader- and Swordsage-exclusive disciplines. The supernatural classes. The Warblade is rather mundane.

[Metahuman1]

Let me play devil's advocate here, for a moment. Or just be contrarian. Either one. (Personally I think that quite a few things are restricted to magic when they shouldn't be, but yeah.)


Well, you can throw stuff that weighs more than your maximum load. Infinitely more, in fact, as long as you can trip them. See also some stuff I'll bring up in my comments on White Raven.


Save replacers aren't magical? "Oh hey, let me Wish you into the sun-" "Lolno, I get +20 to the save with this maneuver. Git gud."
Or Blindsense? Or being able to will away the effects of Mummy Rot with a Concentration check? Or taking a move action in exchange for a swift action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm)? Or being able to make mindless creatures feel doubt? And Time Stands Still is just a more specific application of White Raven Tactics.


It's roughly as mundane as the Barbarian's Rage, yeah. (That is to say, not very.) It also frequently references specific bodyparts, which could be amusing when you fight one of the many foes without one of the relevant ones. Like legs, necks, arms or a face. On an Ooze, Elemental, or Aberration.


The only non-mundane part of Lightning Throw is how your weapon returns to your hand at the end of your turn, but yeah. A good way to imagine it is as a boomerang, I guess.
Iron Heart Surge is rather mundane in the RAI if not in the RAW - I imagine that the "shuts down spells" part was meant to stop stuff like Acid Arrow or Fear, rather than the more esoteric things that slipped through due to it being horribly edited. Luckily the "duration of 1 or more rounds" part should stop you from doing some truly degenerate stuff like the infamous "turn off the sun" 'trick'. And also anything with a duration measured in minutes or hours or so, but I suspect that that's up to interpretation.


Since everyone's turn takes place during the same 6 seconds, I imagine that WRTactics and such are just the Initiator optimizing everyone's actions during the turn by barking out orders.
Warmaster's Charge is much the same, but also one of the few ways to actually have your entire party charge the enemy at once in 3.5. There's not a lot out there that lets you synchronize your movement like that, beyond delaying initiative.
Really, if you complain about immediate-action movement you might as well put in Mirrored Pursuit as one of the magical things Setting Sun has. Or Shifting Defense. Or Stalking Shadow.


Earthstrike Quake is pretty explicitly non-mundane, what with channeling ki into the ground with a mighty strike and all. It's supernatural in the Stunning Fist way, where it fits under the physics-defying part of (Ex)traordinary.
The ones that remove actions and stop movement are pretty clearly just staggering and disorienting the foe with a hard hit to the [INSERT BODYPART HERE], though. I mean, here's the fluff for Stone Vise (the movement-stopping one):




I agree with most of this, although the Law and Chaos stances are pretty non-mundane and even have alignment descriptors.

But yeah, the supernatural stuff is in the Crusader- and Swordsage-exclusive disciplines. The supernatural classes. The Warblade is rather mundane.

Yeah, but it's just fiction Judo. Seriously, how many times have we seen a soft power martial artist in fiction throw body builders that make Conan the Barbarian around one handed with no effort?

Nope, your just that awesome at focusing your ki and your mind to resist things. Or that fast that your avoiding it, or your senses are so well trained you notice it.

Agree on the others.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, you can throw stuff that weighs more than your maximum load. Infinitely more, in fact, as long as you can trip them.

You can, but it's extremely unlikely. It's based on trip, so you're still stuck throwing only things up to one size larger, and the size and str of the behemoth-sized monsters means you're not going to win with anything short of Tornado Throw (the capstone) and a long run up. In practice, you're not going to be throwing around anything that will seem too shocking compared to your character's size and strength.


Save replacers aren't magical? "Oh hey, let me Wish you into the sun-" "Lolno, I get +20 to the save with this maneuver. Git gud."
You think using concentration to represent willpower is magical? That being said...


Or Blindsense? Or being able to will away the effects of Mummy Rot with a Concentration check?
...It does always amuse me that Concentration is a Constitution-based skill yet the most "unrealistic" save replacer to most people is Mind Over Body. As for blind sense...people IN REAL LIFE can attune their non-visual senses enough to hear someone coming (how the stance is literally named). It's no more "magical" than tiger claw's Hunter's Sense. If anything makes the two stances seem magical, it's the fact that you lose the ability completely when not in the stance, when both are the sort of things you'd think of as permanent capabilities once obtained.


Or taking a move action in exchange for a swift action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm)?
Just because a power can do it (and a domain feat, and some other things) doesn't mean it's always magical. It's just moving in a burst faster than normal, pretty mundane.


Or being able to make mindless creatures feel doubt? And Time Stands Still is just a more specific application of White Raven Tactics.
I think you're taking the stance's name a little too seriously. It could just as easily be confidence of the martial adept or whatever. See below for WR Tactics.


It's roughly as mundane as the Barbarian's Rage, yeah. (That is to say, not very.) It also frequently references specific bodyparts, which could be amusing when you fight one of the many foes without one of the relevant ones. Like legs, necks, arms or a face. On an Ooze, Elemental, or Aberration.

If you don't consider a Rage to be mundane, I don't even know what to say... "Mundane" doesn't mean "crap that me, a sedentary D&D player who's never been in combat, can do."


The only non-mundane part of Lightning Throw is how your weapon returns to your hand at the end of your turn, but yeah. A good way to imagine it is as a boomerang, I guess.
Iron Heart Surge is rather mundane in the RAI if not in the RAW - I imagine that the "shuts down spells" part was meant to stop stuff like Acid Arrow or Fear, rather than the more esoteric things that slipped through due to it being horribly edited. Luckily the "duration of 1 or more rounds" part should stop you from doing some truly degenerate stuff like the infamous "turn off the sun" 'trick'. And also anything with a duration measured in minutes or hours or so, but I suspect that that's up to interpretation.

With Lightning Throw, it's just the fact that it auto-hits everyone (unless they have evasion) in a perfect 60 ft line every time *and* then unerringly returns to your hand. Without necessarily having any ranged/thrown expertise at all nor a weapon that's the least bit aerodynamic. It's my favorite strike and I love it to death, but calling it non-magical is a bit of a stretch.
IHS even without the insane "RAW" like the heat death of the sun is still pretty magical. It'll still "dispel" a resilient sphere or a fog cloud and so forth. The "measured in minutes or hours doesn't count" interpretation is as stupid as the "kill the sun!" one, both rely on intentionally obtuse readings that go out of their way to ignore any semblance of reason or logic.


Since everyone's turn takes place during the same 6 seconds, I imagine that WRTactics and such are just the Initiator optimizing everyone's actions during the turn by barking out orders.
Warmaster's Charge is much the same, but also one of the few ways to actually have your entire party charge the enemy at once in 3.5. There's not a lot out there that lets you synchronize your movement like that, beyond delaying initiative.
Really, if you complain about immediate-action movement you might as well put in Mirrored Pursuit as one of the magical things Setting Sun has. Or Shifting Defense. Or Stalking Shadow.

Those aren't nearly equivalent. WRT is the same person, by virtue of your words of encouragement or tactical advice alone, acting twice in the space of time he'd normally act once. All the other examples (including Time Stands Still) are much less amounts of additional action or are at least on yourself to reflect your own training to move faster. WR Tactics is, "Hey, NPC we just rescued 5 minutes ago! Would you like to pounce twice in the time you could normally only do so once?!"


Earthstrike Quake is pretty explicitly non-mundane, what with channeling ki into the ground with a mighty strike and all. It's supernatural in the Stunning Fist way, where it fits under the physics-defying part of (Ex)traordinary.
The ones that remove actions and stop movement are pretty clearly just staggering and disorienting the foe with a hard hit to the [INSERT BODYPART HERE], though. I mean, here's the fluff for Stone Vise (the movement-stopping one):

Which would be fine, except it only works if the foe is on the ground. You can't making a blow so crushing to the foe's wings (for example) that it's unable to continue flying the next round while it struggles just to keep its balance. Maybe I was being too picky on that example, though. I mostly just get annoyed w/ Stone Dragon's annoying ground-only restrictions.

[Talya]

[INSERT BODYPART HERE]

Wait, what?

[Larkas]

Just to clear things up, I ascribe to the school of thought that translates most real-world people as 1st-5th level characters, legendary heroes as 6th, and anything higher than that positively superhuman.

Superhuman, however, is not the same as supernatural. Something that humans can't do but is not supernatural is "mundane" - at least for high level characters.

[Gemini476]

I was being deliberately contrarian for most of those, in case it wasn't obvious. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I don't really agree on White Raven being all that supernatural, but that's the main thing that was genuine.

Also Stone Vise specifically relies on ruining your opponents footing, which is a non-issue if you are flying or levitating. Then again, Stone Dragon and ground-based restrictions.

Oh, and the main reason I think that Rage isn't that mundane is because it really isn't. It's firmly in the part of (Ex)traordinary that allows the abilities to be physics-defying and such. It fits perfectly into the genre archetypes and such, but it's not exactly realistic. It's not exactly mundane, but it's not something people think of as "not mundane".
It's Hollywood Physics - getting angry makes you at least 70% stronger, apparently. And tougher. And all without needing to consume drugs of any sort - a Barbarian can fly into a rage at-will, and easily leave it!

I feel the need to quote the SRD:'
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

There's a bit of a false dichotomy between "magic" and "can be done in real life".Also technically in D&D non-Divine magic is also mundane, but that's just semantics.

...That post derailed quite a bit.


EDIT:

Wait, what?
I was originally going to write "hard hit to the noggin", but realized that it never really says where you hit them. Irresistible Mountain Strike (lose standard action), Overwhelming Mountain Strike (lose move action) and Stone/Crushing Vise (speed becomes 0) all just have you do a hard hit to the opponent to stagger them. It's kind of the opposite of Tiger Claw in that way.
Tiger claw has maneuvers targeting specific locations, fluffwise: legs (Hamstring Attack), arms/tentacles (Wolverine Stance), upper body/face/neck (Claw at the Moon). I personally prefer the non-specific fluff of Stone Dragon, but yeah. A generic powerful attack that knocks the opponent off-kilter is easier to refluff than a leaping strike at the opponents jugular. (Both run into issues with the way HP is handled, but eh.)

[deuxhero]

Well, you can throw stuff that weighs more than your maximum load.


Pretty sure that's possible in the real world (to a degree).

[Talya]

I was originally going to write "hard hit to the noggin", but realized that it never really says where you hit them. Irresistible Mountain Strike (lose standard action), Overwhelming Mountain Strike (lose move action) and Stone/Crushing Vise (speed becomes 0) all just have you do a hard hit to the opponent to stagger them. It's kind of the opposite of Tiger Claw in that way.
Tiger claw has maneuvers targeting specific locations, fluffwise: legs (Hamstring Attack), arms/tentacles (Wolverine Stance), upper body/face/neck (Claw at the Moon). I personally prefer the non-specific fluff of Stone Dragon, but yeah. A generic powerful attack that knocks the opponent off-kilter is easier to refluff than a leaping strike at the opponents jugular. (Both run into issues with the way HP is handled, but eh.)


None of this sounds remotely as potentially interesting as "[INSERT BODYPART HERE]".

[Sith_Happens]

None of this sounds remotely as potentially interesting as "[INSERT BODYPART HERE]".

Well, when in doubt, a groin-shot is the most reliable way to inflict action loss.:smallwink:

[Gemini476]

None of this sounds remotely as potentially interesting as "[INSERT BODYPART HERE]".

That's the glory of generic attacks.
Why do you think it's called Crushing Vise? Owch. No wonder they can't move!

Incidentally, there's a maneuver that causes pain. I didn't know that there were nonmagical things in 3.5 that caused actual, mechanically supported, pain. You learn something every day, I guess.

[Averis Vol]

Yeah, but it's just fiction Judo. Seriously, how many times have we seen a soft power martial artist in fiction throw body builders that make Conan the Barbarian around one handed with no effort?

Nope, your just that awesome at focusing your ki and your mind to resist things. Or that fast that your avoiding it, or your senses are so well trained you notice it.

Agree on the others.

+1 to fiction judo. I've done it for 12 years myself and still have trouble actually throwing someone.....like, more than fiveish feet. :smallyuk: Hate how games stereotype martial artists.

[Komatik]

I don't agree with Devoted Spirit being very mundane - there's an awful lot of talk about coruscating energy, auras of pure Law and such for it to be actually mundane.

That said, things like Hunter's Sense and Hearing The Air don't bother me one bit. People in real life can actually echolocate well enough to walk around almost as if they could see, so if a super well trained fantasy hero can do it by concentrating on doing it? Sounds fine to me.

[Abithrios]

Sorry if it sounds like I am singling you out by quoting you, but I the thread as a whole bothers me slightly.




If you don't consider a Rage to be mundane, I don't even know what to say... "Mundane" doesn't mean "crap that me, a sedentary D&D player who's never been in combat, can do."


Unfortunately, that is pretty close to the dictionary definition of "mundane", which is why I find it rather confusing/annoying that people use it in the context of dnd. According to google, "mundane" means "lacking interest or excitement; dull" or it means "of this earthly world rather than... [other types of worlds]". The latter definition does not apply to anything in a magical fantasy setting (even things possible here), and the former does not cover many of the things that a high level character does in an antimagic field. In fact, thesaurus.com lists "extraordinary" as an antonym of "mundane". (http://thesaurus.com/browse/mundane)

The 3.5 rule set does not do a good job of handling things that are mundane. By high level, a commoner can survive being stabbed repeatedly or having his throat slit. Does he need medical attention afterwords? No, he can just sleep it off over a couple of days.

Also, on the list of things that work in an antimagic field is the clay golem. It is a lump of clay that is shaped more or less like a person which is then animated by magic. The result is a lump of clay that can attack you. If you cut it in half, there are no muscles, there are no gears, there are no motors--there is only more clay. That sounds like something perfectly "lacking interest or excitement; dull" and "of this earthly world...", right?

[ArendK]

Well, when in doubt, a groin-shot is the most reliable way to inflict action loss.:smallwink:

Action loss indeed...and not just talking swift, standard, and full-round.

I started chuckling here at work when I read that...

[Gemini476]

Sorry if it sounds like I am singling you out by quoting you, but I the thread as a whole bothers me slightly.




Unfortunately, that is pretty close to the dictionary definition of "mundane", which is why I find it rather confusing/annoying that people use it in the context of dnd. According to google, "mundane" means "lacking interest or excitement; dull" or it means "of this earthly world rather than... [other types of worlds]". The latter definition does not apply to anything in a magical fantasy setting (even things possible here), and the former does not cover many of the things that a high level character does in an antimagic field. In fact, thesaurus.com lists "extraordinary" as an antonym of "mundane". (http://thesaurus.com/browse/mundane)

The 3.5 rule set does not do a good job of handling things that are mundane. By high level, a commoner can survive being stabbed repeatedly or having his throat slit. Does he need medical attention afterwords? No, he can just sleep it off over a couple of days.

Also, on the list of things that work in an antimagic field is the clay golem. It is a lump of clay that is shaped more or less like a person which is then animated by magic. The result is a lump of clay that can attack you. If you cut it in half, there are no muscles, there are no gears, there are no motors--there is only more clay. That sounds like something perfectly "lacking interest or excitement; dull" and "of this earthly world...", right?

If you go by the "part of this world" definition of "Mundane", then all magic that isn't involving the planes (or originates from the planes) is mundane. So not Conjuration(Calling) or teleportation or creation or some evocation effects and whatnot, but Rary's Telepathic Bond? Mundane.
So mostly arcane magic, not divine or shadow, maybe druidic, maybe truespeak. Can't get much more mundane than truespeak, after all.

Now, if you want to define "mundane" as "part of this world, Earth, as in the one in which you are reading this"? Yeah, then raging isn't mundane, nor is the DR or Evasion or high HP counts or skill checks or anything to do with dice for that matter. (You always have a 5% chance of hitting something at maximum range with a longbow. Even if you are non-proficient with it. 2,5% if you blindfold yourself.)
D&D is a rather poor model for reality, so very little remains mundane.

[Morty]

As this thread has already proven, "mundane" is in the eye of the beholder. Hitting people so hard they catch fire will qualify according to some, but won't according to others. Going by the clarification you posted:


Just to clear things up, I ascribe to the school of thought that translates most real-world people as 1st-5th level characters, legendary heroes as 6th, and anything higher than that positively superhuman.

Superhuman, however, is not the same as supernatural. Something that humans can't do but is not supernatural is "mundane" - at least for high level characters.

I'd agree with the people who declare Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, White Raven, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon to be the relatively "down to earth" disciplines, apart from a few select maneuvers. Most of the things those disciplines allow you to do are feats of martial or physical prowess, cranked up progressively until they reach Herculean levels and subsequently leave them behind. Other disciplines contain more overtly magical effects. Some of the maneuvers can be written off as simply being good at what you do, but others, less so. Shadow Hand contains moves that fit an assassin or duelist without a hitch, but then you have manipulation of shadow and cold. Devoted Mind has maneuvers that are simply about iron-clad conviction, but also explicitly divine-powered abilities. And Desert Wind has you throw around a little too much fire for it to be non-magical.

In case it's relevant, I classify mundane as "not tapping into whatever it is that makes magic work". If you can do it by simply being good enough, without accessing the source of supernatural phenomena of a given setting, it's non-magical and therefore mundane. That's the definition I tend to work with.

[Jormengand]

"mundane" is in the eye of the beholder.

Actually, I don't think that Beholders' eyes are at all mundane. :smalltongue:

[Gemini476]

Actually, I don't think that Beholders' eyes are at all mundane. :smalltongue:

Being Aberrations that are quite possibly not native to the Prime in question, I'll have to agree.

Now, Aboleths? They probably qualify as mundane due to being on the planet longer than anyone else.

[Sian]

I'd guess that at least on H'Catha in Realmspace, Beholders are fairly mudane

[Zale]

Mundane is a relative term.

If you live in the modern age, computers are fairly mundane.

If you live in 1st century Europe, computers are mysterious sorcery boxes.


If you live in a world where the local priest can causally call down the blessings of gods, where scholars can learn to manipulate the universe by understanding the laws it works under, where animals can flagrantly disregard physical laws because it's amusing, then those things are fairly mundane.

Having someone who can set their sword on fire through the power of martial discipline doesn't strike me as being any weirder than everything else that's going on.

And if I was a warrior in a fantasy world, you bet I'd be taking advantage of all that magical stuff floating around.