What's Precision based Damage?

[heavyfuel]

I was looking at the Master Thrower PrC and noticed this text regarding the Palm Throw trick:

"This ability counts as a volley attack, and only one instance of precision-based damage applies to the attack roll"

I've looked everywhere and can't seem to find a proper definition (RAW) of "precision-based damage". I assume that this means damage that you need to be within certain reach to deal. Eg: Sneak Attack, Point blank shot.

One could say that a critical hit is only a critical hit due to precision (hitting a vital spot). However, the text for Manyshot seem to differentiate the two.

So... What DOES count as precision based damage?

[Jallorn]

Precision based damage is Sneak Attack damage and its counterparts. The Ninja's Sudden Strike, the Scout's Skirmish damage, etc. The overarching category is there because you can count them all together as, "I can do this much Precision damage" even if you're probably not getting them all at once.

[Kazudo]

Typically, precision-based damage is only important to know when dealing with damage stacking and immunity. If it has immunity to critical hits, for example, it's immune to precision based damage (barring feats or ACFs which permit it).

But yeah, the above definition covers it. Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, Volley Attack, etc. All of those are considered precision damage.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Precision damage is basically sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike, and some other random things that say they are, like the weapon property in MIC that does +1d6 damage to a foe when he's lost dex to AC or flanked. It's fluffed as hitting a vital spot, that's the common theme, that any being situational conditions for when you can use it. Oddly it has no tie-in to critical hits other than not usually working on things immune to crits; you can deal precision damage yet not crit and even more oddly, crit but not deal precision damage (Telling Blow feat lets you).

You may find some die hard RAW-nazis that insist ranger's favored enemy is precision damage because the badly updated (from 3.0) glossary section in the core rulebook lists it as such, iirc. Because it was in 3.0, they realized how stupid and limiting that was to an ability that was already stupid and limiting (fun fact: in 3.0 you don't get the FE bonus vs. undead and such because they're crit immune, so NO ONE took those types as favored enemies, then there was the fact that elves couldn't take elf as FE to combat drow but drow could do so to combat elves, and...blah, now I'm just ranting on how dumb 3.0 FE was), and wisely decided to *not* make it precision damage. But they forgot to edit one little sentence in one dark corner of the rulebook, and...a thousand thread wars were launched.

[heavyfuel]

Ok, I got that sneak attack is precision damage, I knew that already. But where does it say that it it?

Look here: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Rogue#Sneak_Attack. In NO PLACE it says that sneak attack is "precision damage" or anything of the sort. While sneak attack may seem an obvious example of it, it's not written anywhere.

Some not so obvious examples would be the Insightful Strike (Swashbuckler 3) or the Cunning Insight (Factotum 1) features.

Is there a list, somewhere, that lists all things that deal precision based damage?

[Kazudo]

Not in the books, and the term "precision damage" is, in fact, rarely used.

Typically the callsign is "if denied DEX bonus to AC..." or a phrase saying that it doesn't work when the target is immune to critical hits or being flanked.

I see what you're getting at, and a cursory Google search pulled up no less than four similar threads across the last ten years that say pretty much the same thing: Precision Damage is a term that can only be defined and applied by RAI except in specific instances.

[Doc_Maynot]

Precision damage is defined in Rules Compendium

[heavyfuel]

Not in the books, and the term "precision damage" is, in fact, rarely used.

Typically the callsign is "if denied DEX bonus to AC..." or a phrase saying that it doesn't work when the target is immune to critical hits or being flanked.

I see what you're getting at, and a cursory Google search pulled up no less than four similar threads across the last ten years that say pretty much the same thing: Precision Damage is a term that can only be defined and applied by RAI except in specific instances.

Thanks man! Your Google-fu is better than mine. All I found when searching was a single thread that really didn't answer anything.


Precision damage is defined in Rules Compendium

Hmmm. Can't believe I didn't check the rules compendium first. But anyway, the "definition" they give is sloppy at best. SA and "other abilities that work like it" (Sudden Strike and Skirmish) are precision damage.

Ok... So, what does "abilities that work like it" mean? Is it any ability that relies on a specific situation to happen. If so, than Pointblank shot, Cunning Insight and Insightful Strike are in fact precision damage, but so is the Bull Rush from a DC Fighter (a specific condition must be met in order to do damage. aka, just bull rushing doesn't do damage, you MUST bull rush it into a wall or similar) which honestly doesn't make sense.

Maybe there's another way to view "other abilities that work like it" but this is the only way I could think of.

[Know(Nothing)]

Ok... So, what does "abilities that work like it" mean?



Typically the callsign is "if denied DEX bonus to AC..." or a phrase saying that it doesn't work when the target is immune to critical hits or being flanked.

If you come across something that doesn't fit these definitions, or close to them, ask your DM.

[NoACWarrior]

Precision damage is basically sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike, and some other random things that say they are, like the weapon property in MIC that does +1d6 damage to a foe when he's lost dex to AC or flanked. It's fluffed as hitting a vital spot, that's the common theme, that any being situational conditions for when you can use it. Oddly it has no tie-in to critical hits other than not usually working on things immune to crits; you can deal precision damage yet not crit and even more oddly, crit but not deal precision damage (Telling Blow feat lets you).

You may find some die hard RAW-nazis that insist ranger's favored enemy is precision damage because the badly updated (from 3.0) glossary section in the core rulebook lists it as such, iirc. Because it was in 3.0, they realized how stupid and limiting that was to an ability that was already stupid and limiting (fun fact: in 3.0 you don't get the FE bonus vs. undead and such because they're crit immune, so NO ONE took those types as favored enemies, then there was the fact that elves couldn't take elf as FE to combat drow but drow could do so to combat elves, and...blah, now I'm just ranting on how dumb 3.0 FE was), and wisely decided to *not* make it precision damage. But they forgot to edit one little sentence in one dark corner of the rulebook, and...a thousand thread wars were launched.

The fact that darkness wasn't updated could just be a typo. Although I'm normally a RAW stickler, in my own campaign I'd house rule that FE was just damage bonus.


Explicitly noted in rules compendium is sneak attack, sudden strike, and skirmish.
Something a bit off is the notation of penalties to attack regarding lethal to non-lethal conversion. Simply put if you take penalties you can't dd precision damage, but if you are able to normally ignore the penalties, you are ok. It also doesn't state what kind of penalties past non-proficiency or non-lethal damage conversion would limit precision damage, but I'd assume things like cover and what not are about it. Something else - any precision damage not expressed in damage dice CAN be multiplied as part of a damage multiplier (such as from a critical hit what not)

As further noted from Rules compendium - paraphrased for convenience


• Applies to multiple attacks or additional attacks so long as the ability prerequisite is met.
• Must use a weapon with proficiency in an optimal way (if you take certain penalties to attack, you can't deal precision damage).
• Ranged attacks must be within 30 ft.
• Only applies to living creatures that have discernible anatomies and are not immune to critical hits.
• Must be able to pinpoint a targets location, any concealment which cannot be negated stops precision damage.
• Must be able to reach vital organs.
• Precision damage resulting from extra dice damage cannot be multiplied from damage multipliers.
• Multiple attacks as part of the same action which are not part of a full round action cannot benefit from precision damage more than once - the first attack applies precision damage.

[Kazudo]

In 3.0, FE was essentially precision damage, the caveat that made it that way was removed in 3.5. In fact, there are ways to use FE to get around precision damage rules if done correctly.