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Jalil
2007-02-12, 12:50 PM
What's to stop a first level character from taking the feat Martial Study and chose the Shaodw Hand discipline to gain access to the seventh level technique Death in the dark to virtually insta-gib anything of thier level. Aside from the DM, I mean...

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 12:52 PM
You can't learn a maneuver unless you have an appropriate Initiator Level. A first-level non-Martial-Adept has an Initiator Level of 1/2, rounded down is 0. A first-level Martial Adept has an Initiator Level of 1.

You can't learn/use maneuvers of level X until your IL is (2X-1). It's like spells and caster level.

InaVegt
2007-02-12, 12:54 PM
You can't learn a maneuver unless you have an appropriate Initiator Level. A first-level non-Martial-Adept has an Initiator Level of 1/2, rounded down is 0. A first-level Martial Adept has an Initiator Level of 1.

You can't learn/use maneuvers of level X until your IL is (2X-1). It's like spells and caster level.

The problem is, Tome of battle explicitely states you don't need to have a high enough initiator level for maneuvers, I created a ToB based two weapon fighting scout who could dish out reasonable damage.

BCOVertigo
2007-02-12, 12:57 PM
Look at the table on ToB 39 that details highest level maneuver known based on initiator level.

For non-initiator classes your initiator level is half your class level.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 12:59 PM
The problem is, Tome of battle explicitely states you don't need to have a high enough initiator level for maneuvers, I created a ToB based two weapon fighting scout who could dish out reasonable damage.

...um.
No. No, it doesn't.

InaVegt
2007-02-12, 01:00 PM
Look at the table on ToB 39 that details highest level maneuver known based on initiator level.

For non-initiator classes your initiator level is half your class level.
And in the section about learning manouvers they explicitely say those limits only count for those with initiator class levels.

Jalil
2007-02-12, 02:15 PM
My thoughts exactly. I was looking through ToB for some cleric feats, and thought a maneuver might be nice, and found I could take those. Imagine my Lvl 1 suprised self...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-12, 02:18 PM
And in the section about learning manouvers they explicitely say those limits only count for those with initiator class levels.

Quote the precise passage, please. I find it hard to believe you.

Voleta
2007-02-12, 02:59 PM
I am not sure if you would find this relevant, but on page 39, second paragraph under Initiator Level, it states that "If you lack any martial adept levels, your initiator level is equal to 1/2 your character level."

In the feat description for martial study, it says the same. Yes, you do have to flip the page, and the sentance continues onto the next one. It also says you have to meet the prereq's for the maneuver.

I have no idea where you guys are seeing that it does not apply. I have read every word in the area about learning maneuvers, and do not see that it says to disregard your initiator level.

InaVegt
2007-02-12, 03:03 PM
Quote the precise passage, please. I find it hard to believe you.
I can't seem to find it anymore, I was sure it was there. Must have been mistaken.

Captain van der Decken
2007-02-12, 03:07 PM
I got it.


Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisites.

Seems to suggest you don't need the initiator level.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 03:12 PM
"Prerequisites" includes an appropriate initiator level.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-12, 03:14 PM
Just as a prerequisite for casting a spell is having a proper caster level.

Captain van der Decken
2007-02-12, 03:22 PM
Arguable, since there's a specific section to say if there is a prerequisite.


You must meet a maneuver's prerequisites to learn it. See Table 3-1, page 39, to determine the highest level of maneuvers you can learn.

Which I read as you "you must meet the prerequisite, and must be have a high enough IL to take it".

Fax Celestis
2007-02-12, 03:28 PM
Which I read as you "you must meet the prerequisite, and must be have a high enough IL to take it".

Then you read it wrong. IL is a prerequisite, but it's one that changes between maneuvering and nonmaneuvering classes.

brian c
2007-02-12, 03:30 PM
Tome of Battle, pg44


Prerequisite
...
You can't learn a maneuver unless you gain a level in a martial adept class, a level in a prestige class that grants maneuvers known, or you take the Martial Study Feat.


pg32-33 has the description of Martial Study, which has the initiator level = 1/2 class level rule.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-12, 08:31 PM
The prerequisites for the martial manuever include other martial manuevers or stances. Even if you ignore the initiator level (which is CRAZY) you'd still need a load of shadow hand manuevers and stances before you can get the big energy draining one of 9th level.

SerroMaroo
2007-02-12, 09:30 PM
Ok folks lets think about this for about 3 seconds. Even if somehow wizards screwed up and didn't make this clear enough then any DM who allows this is insane. Why would a 1st lvl fighter be able to attain techniques that people who specialize in these styles cannot?

Its like saying that a 1st lvl bard should get Wish with a single feat.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-12, 09:44 PM
Hey, SerroMaroo, this is DnDland, and we have laws against you upitty "let's use logic to solve problems" city-folk.

In all seriousness, SerroMaroo makes a pretty valid point(even if he uses logic)

PinkysBrain
2007-02-12, 09:58 PM
Brian C ... what's your point exactly? Yes, the martial study feat says what your initiator level is ... that does not make it a prerequisite. The primary source for defining what a prerequisite is quite clearly the paragraph in the "Maneuver and Stance Descriptions" on page 44, which you selectively quoted. Let me selectively quote a slightly more enlightening part.


Prerequisite
In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver you must meet a certain set of requirements ...Now a point can be made that the "Selecting Martial Maneuver" rules from page 39 apply to Martial Study. At first it only mentions that you can select higher level maneuvers "as you gain levels", it does not specify that means your martial adept level. That clashes a bit with the later mention of "your level in a martial adept class", but there is wiggle room there.

There is one nasty side effect of IL not being a prerequisite which can't be gotten around with merely rules interpretation though, and that is with the maneuver granting magic items. You can get high level maneuvers very cheap through them, and since you aren't selecting them the IL limits don't apply. You need to meet the prerequisites, that is all.

Fax : there are lots of classes which gain spells without having the same caster level as the full casting classes, there are probably ways to get penalties to your caster level ... etc etc. There is correlation, not causation.

Jalil
2007-02-13, 10:21 AM
So the answer is that the DM should disallow it? Are there no other answers?

YPU
2007-02-13, 10:32 AM
I think the conclusion is that initiator level is needed, and non ToB classes count as ½ level initiators, the problem only is it isn’t stated as clearly as with spells, probably because wizards considered it common logic. When a player would try it the DM is to point out that initiator level clearly is a requirement, since practically any spell and ability is based around just that in dnd.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-13, 10:52 AM
The table on page 39 in ToB details what Initiator Level is required for selecting different levels of Maneuvers.