1 Ring of Three Wishes != 3 RoTW ?

[Eaglejarl]

This is a question about RAW, but probably not appropriate for the "Simple Answers By RAW" thread.

Yesterday, someone told me that there is a particular convoluted and arcane set of rules that says you cannot use a Ring of Three Wishes to wish for another Ring of Three Wishes -- something to do with casting spells from magic items, but he didn't explain the details.

Anyone know why this might be?

[Doc_Maynot]

Well, by RAW that is a magic item that casts Wish 1d3 times (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo)
Wish has a limit on nonmagic goods, but when it comes to magic it just says, "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."
So as far as I see you can use it to wish for more rings, which will each have 1d3 rubies in them.
And note: It says create, so you shouldn't just end up with your ring back in your hands.

[Bronk]

I think that the problem people see with wishing for magic items using the ring is that when you make that type of wish it makes you spend more of your own XP to enable it, and they figure that each of the three wishes in the ring are only created with the minimum 5000XP required to cast the spell.

[Rubik]

I think that the problem people see with wishing for magic items using the ring is that when you make that type of wish it makes you spend more of your own XP to enable it, and they figure that each of the three wishes in the ring are only created with the minimum 5000XP required to cast the spell.The way to get around that little conundrum is to nab yourself a (Su) Wish somehow, such as through an efreeti or a zodar. Use your Wish(es) for unused, fully-charged rings of three Wishes with, say, 11,000,000,000,000 xp in them for creating magic items or for spellcasting, then use those rings for additional unused, fully-charged rings of three Wishes with additional xp, etc.

Or just Wish for a self-resetting, repeating magical trap of Wish (cast as a [Su] ability).

[Afgncaap5]

Wouldn't creating a ring of three wishes qualify as being an effect greater than duplicating an 8th level spell, though? That seems like it'd fall into the realm of the "literal but undesirable fulfillment" clause after the possible uses.

[Doc_Maynot]

Why I had the link.

[eggynack]

Wouldn't creating a ring of three wishes qualify as being an effect greater than duplicating an 8th level spell, though? That seems like it'd fall into the realm of the "literal but undesirable fulfillment" clause after the possible uses.
The two effects are unrelated, and when using the magic item creation function, the 8th level spell limit is irrelevant. The 8th level spell line isn't even a limitation at all. It's just a thing that wish lets you do. Were the line not there, then wish would lose functionality, and wouldn't gain any.

[Reddish Mage]

The way to get around that little conundrum is to nab yourself a (Su) Wish somehow, such as through an efreeti or a zodar. Use your Wish(es) for unused, fully-charged rings of three Wishes with, say, 11,000,000,000,000 xp in them for creating magic items or for spellcasting, then use those rings for additional unused, fully-charged rings of three Wishes with additional xp, etc.

Or just Wish for a self-resetting, repeating magical trap of Wish (cast as a [Su] ability).

The problem with that sort of wish is that it isn't a simple use of the wish spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm).


Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects....

Included is creating a magic item, but not creating a customized more powerful than standard magic item


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

[eggynack]

Included is creating a magic item, but not creating a customized more powerful than standard magic item
Customized more powerful than standard magic item is a subset of magic item.

[Taelas]

There is no given limits to the magic item the spell can create. Therefore it's entirely up to the DM to decide whether to grant your wish or not.

Wishing for a ring of three wishes is in my eyes a good way to get absolutely zilch out of your wish.

[eggynack]

There is no given limits to the magic item the spell can create. Therefore it's entirely up to the DM to decide whether to grant your wish or not.

Not really. Or, more accurately, yes, but only to the same extent that the DM is allowed to change anything. Per the rules, this maneuver is legal. The DM has the same right to make it illegal as he would to make you not allowed to use wish to cast glitterdust. No more, and no less. The chance that he will exercise that right may differ, but appealing to rule zero just seems kinda pointless.

[Eaglejarl]

It sounds like, aside from maybe Rule 0, there's no specific rule that anyone know about.

Ok, that's about what I figured. Thanks, everyone.

[Talothorn]

The pertinent lines are:


Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.



XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.



Three Wishes

This ring is set with three rubies. Each ruby stores a*wish*spell, activated by the ring. When a*wish*is used, that ruby disappears. For a randomly generated ring, roll 1d3 to determine the remaining number of rubies. When all the wishes are used, the ring becomes a nonmagical item.

Strong evocation (if*miracle*is used); CL 20th;*Forge Ring,*wish*or*miracle; Price 97,950 gp; Cost 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP.



So, sure. You can create another ring of 3 wishes. Several, even. Each one will cost you 38700 xp.

[Gemini476]

The pertinent lines are:








So, sure. You can create another ring of 3 wishes. Several, even. Each one will cost you 38700 xp.

31,836 XP. I'm not sure where you got the extra 6864 XP from.

I'm also somewhat sure that Rings of Three Wishes come pre-charged with a certain amount of XP, although I do not remember where I read that. Hmm. Probably not 31,836 more than the standard 5,000/Wish, though.

[TuggyNE]

31,836 XP. I'm not sure where you got the extra 6864 XP from.

Allow me to correct your correction: it would, assuming I have properly totted everything up, require a wish with 36836 XP available to create a minimum-XP ring of three wishes.


I'm also somewhat sure that Rings of Three Wishes come pre-charged with a certain amount of XP, although I do not remember where I read that. Hmm. Probably not 31,836 more than the standard 5,000/Wish, though.

Add up the numbers, you'll see they can't possibly have more than enough for the tiniest of magic items at best. Like, feather token tiny.

[Gemini476]

Allow me to correct your correction: it would, assuming I have properly totted everything up, require a wish with 36836 XP available to create a minimum-XP ring of three wishes.



Add up the numbers, you'll see they can't possibly have more than enough for the tiniest of magic items at best. Like, feather token tiny.

Very well then. Crafting cost is 11,475gp+15,918xp.

Cost for one charge of Wish: spell level(9)*caster level(17)*50gp (single use, use-activated) + XP(5000)*5gp (XP cost)
Cost: 32,650gp/charge
Three charges: 97,950gp

Actual cost: 97,950gp

So as it turns out, it comes pre-charged with 5,000XP/Wish. Enough to actualy cast it, in other words, or create 25,000gp of mundane materials, but not enough to actually create a magical item of any sort (the cheapest I know cost more than 0gp). (The cheapest Feather Token - the Anchor - costs 50gp to craft. So at least what, 20xp? The ring doesn't have that much unless you charge it (5gp per xp per charge).)

[Loxagn]

Unfortunately, the rules do not seem to work that way. The 'additional experience cost' is officially listed as a Component of the spell. When casting a spell from an item, all Components of the spell are automatically included in the cost of creating the item.

Now if the 'additional xp' was listed anywhere in the spell's description other than under 'XP Cost', then that would be a different story.

RAW, if you use a Ring of Three Wishes to Wish for a Ring of Three Wishes, you get a Ring of Three Wishes. Further, the 1d3 limitation only applies to 'randomly generated' rings, i.e. off of a treasure table. Not items that are created.

The spell is worded extraordinarily poorly, yes, and a sane DM will not allow it. But again, that's Rule Zero territory.

[Bronk]

Unfortunately, the rules do not seem to work that way. The 'additional experience cost' is officially listed as a Component of the spell. When casting a spell from an item, all Components of the spell are automatically included in the cost of creating the item.

Which rules are these? I would be interested to know, since I'm always looking for better ways to deal with wishes.

Based on what I know now... Judging from the extra price of the scroll of permanency incurred to include 2000 additional XP for the spell to use once cast, and considering that the ring of three wishes only asks for enough extra XP to cover three basic castings of wish, I would think that would imply it doesn't supply extra XP to improve or create new magic items.

In games, I normally allow some XP to be used though, since the ring has a caster level of 20. There's another item, a wish fern flower, that specifically casts a wish as a 20th level sorcerer, so I'm using that as a benchmark.

[Vogonjeltz]

The way to get around that little conundrum is to nab yourself a (Su) Wish somehow, such as through an efreeti or a zodar. Use your Wish(es) for unused, fully-charged rings of three Wishes with, say, 11,000,000,000,000 xp in them for creating magic items or for spellcasting, then use those rings for additional unused, fully-charged rings of three Wishes with additional xp, etc.

Or just Wish for a self-resetting, repeating magical trap of Wish (cast as a [Su] ability).

Overly complicated wishes go wrong.

[Gemini476]

Overly complicated wishes go wrong.

Only by a)GM fiat or b)not wishing for one of the safe options.
Wishing for a magic item is a safe option, and as for GM fiat the GM could just as well twist the Wizard's Wish for +1Int by aging him one age category. Or just give him +1Int and then teleport him into the sun.

[Loxagn]

Which rules are these? I would be interested to know, since I'm always looking for better ways to deal with wishes.

Based on what I know now... Judging from the extra price of the scroll of permanency incurred to include 2000 additional XP for the spell to use once cast, and considering that the ring of three wishes only asks for enough extra XP to cover three basic castings of wish, I would think that would imply it doesn't supply extra XP to improve or create new magic items.

In games, I normally allow some XP to be used though, since the ring has a caster level of 20. There's another item, a wish fern flower, that specifically casts a wish as a 20th level sorcerer, so I'm using that as a benchmark.

Yes, but scrolls are different. If we were talking about a Scroll of Wish, then yes the caster would have to pay the cost unless the scroll has been given additional xp, since they are, effectively, casting the spell themselves. This is actually noted in the entry concerning a scroll of wish.

In the case of the Ring of Three Wishes, it is the item itself creating the wish. The cost is already there, pre-included when the item is made. No exceptions to the rule are made in the item's entry as they are in the case of a Wish scroll, therefore the rule 'you don't have to provide components for a command use item' still holds. It is this same rule that means you don't have to provide your own bat guano for a Necklace of Fireballs. It is really stupid and you ought to have to pay extra for such powerful effects, but ultimately that is the realm of RAI, not RAW.

*Of course, I am looking at the SRD for this info and not the physical books, so what is written in the books may differ.

[Synar]

Only by a)GM fiat or b)not wishing for one of the safe options.
Wishing for a magic item is a safe option, and as for GM fiat the GM could just as well twist the Wizard's Wish for +1Int by aging him one age category. Or just give him +1Int and then teleport him into the sun.

No, only a bad DM would do that. That is not an abuse of the spell. However, using Ring of Three Wishes to wish for Ring of Three Wishes is evident abuse (and wouldn't make sense in regard to item cost, like others pointed out). That is cheesy. Sarrukhchicken infested-level of cheesy (even if with core only). This is one of the only time (not accounting for the more player-friendly use of it) where rule zero HAS to be applied. Rule zero get criticized, but it has reasons to exist. Not even to mention the fact that the RAW wording of the spell mentions that when abused (even if not in this way) wish may backfire, wich make any dm fiat less dm fiat and more dm fix.

Of course, all of this is assuming that a player in his right mind may actually try to do this at a table, and not immediatly after be showered under thrown books.:smallbiggrin:

And if a DM tell you "Well, +1 in intelligence transports you in the sun", he's not only bad, he's also lazy and unfun. I mean, trying to see how a wish may logically backfires is fun, rigth? I'm not alone? Guys? :smallwink: I remember there was a thread for that...



EDIT:Oh, and common sense trumps rules. Ever. No exceptions.

[Alaris]

As far as I know, rules as written, you can feel free to wish for the most expensive, powerful 'magic item' in the game. The Wish restriction on Magic Items does not specify a price... so anything goes if it's a PURE, RAW game.

If the DM decides to use his own interpretation, then you almost certainly be screwed for wishing for that. I would certainly screw a player in some manner... or I would place a price on the magic item creation.

Personally, though, I make wishes much more risky, regardless of if it's within the list. You must say "I wish..." and word it however you want. If it's within the power, I generally won't screw you over. If you word it badly, it can end badly, even if it's within the power. Wishes can be extremely powerful, but only if you word it properly.


...as for GM fiat the GM could just as well twist the Wizard's Wish for +1Int by aging him one age category. Or just give him +1Int and then teleport him into the sun.

This is a good example of how I could work a wish. If you try to wish for +1 Intelligence, the Wish will likely try to take the 'easiest' way to give you that Intelligence Boost. That could very well be aging you, though ideally, it is within the standard wish to grant stat boosts, so it probably wouldn't.

Another good example is that within this thread. If someone said "I wish for a ring of three wishes," then the results would be quite amusing. You did not say "I wish for a ring of three wishes to be created."

So, to fulfill this wish, it might attempt to summon a Ring from the nearest location. Afterall, Teleporting something would be a much easier task than creating the object.

I will reiterate, however, that this is my interpretation of how Wish would be used within my world, and NOT how RAW would run it.

[Jack_Simth]

This is a question about RAW, but probably not appropriate for the "Simple Answers By RAW" thread.

Yesterday, someone told me that there is a particular convoluted and arcane set of rules that says you cannot use a Ring of Three Wishes to wish for another Ring of Three Wishes -- something to do with casting spells from magic items, but he didn't explain the details.

Anyone know why this might be?
It's not. You don't need to pay the XP component when using a Wish from a Ring of Three Wishes because the XP component of the wish was provided at the item's creation. Wish has a variable XP component (specifically when making magic items, but also in the general case for spells that cost more XP than that, although none you can duplicate with Wish come immediately to mind), a Ring of Three Wishes only has the base XP of the spell available. Hence, no using a Ring of 1d3 Wishes to create Rings of 1d3 Wishes.

[Renen]

Wait... you would twist a +1 to a stat wish? Arent those safe?

[Kazudo]

If someone wished for another ring of three wishes, I would probably give it to them, completely expended of its charges. If they specifically asked for a fully charged ring of three wishes, I would probably reassign one of the ones that currently exists, probably owned by the nearby Really Powerful Wizard With a Vengeance Problem, to an undisclosed location. If they were VERY specific and asked that a fully charged ring of three wishes be CREATED and brought to their exact location no strings attached, I'd say that the charge wasn't expended and no ring appeared, because of the nature of the ring.

The idea is that an expended ring of three wishes has no listed value, cannot be recharged, and would be no real problem.

Another notion I toyed with once when the problem came up is that you could wish for an expended wish of three wishes, then wish that the ring could hold charges again, then wish that it had all three charges back.

So basically nothing was gained.

[Gemini476]

Wait... you would twist a +1 to a stat wish? Arent those safe?

While this revelation is disturbing, my original post on it was just using absurdity to argue against considering GM Fiat for the safe options.

Because if the GM decides that your Wish for 25,000gp teleports the money from an [Epic] dragon's trapped hoard? He can do that. He's the GM.
However, it is entirely possible that he will soon be a GM without any players.

By RAW there are several "safe" uses for Wish - creating magic items is one of them. Twisting that wish to make the Ring of Three Wishes and a Lot of Experience Points into a Cursed Ring of All That and Infinity Negative Levels is GM Fiat, yes, but it is also not very nice at all. And not RAW, but yeah.



RAW, RAW, fight the power!

[Loxagn]

While this revelation is disturbing, my original post on it was just using absurdity to argue against considering GM Fiat for the safe options.

Because if the GM decides that your Wish for 25,000gp teleports the money from an [Epic] dragon's trapped hoard? He can do that. He's the GM.
However, it is entirely possible that he will soon be a GM without any players.

By RAW there are several "safe" uses for Wish - creating magic items is one of them. Twisting that wish to make the Ring of Three Wishes and a Lot of Experience Points into a Cursed Ring of All That and Infinity Negative Levels is GM Fiat, yes, but it is also not very nice at all. And not RAW, but yeah.



RAW, RAW, fight the power!

Well, if we're being bluntly honest, Wishing for a Ring of Three Wishes is not very nice, either. Some Wishes are perfectly fine. Stat boosts? Fine. Material wealth? Fine. Magic items? Also fine, provided you want to pay the xp for them.

Abusing poorly-worded spells to gain access to infinite power? Not fine. It might be rules-legal, but then again, so is Pun-Pun. In the interest of keeping things fun, you really shouldn't allow it.

Wish should be powerful. It is, after all, a ninth-level spell with a very hefty cost. It should not, however, be allowed to make the game unfun.

EDIT: That said, twisting a wish to immediately do horribly awful things to the wisher is the sign of a bad DM. A simple 'no' would suffice.

[Renen]

Its "fine" by raw.
A **** move but fine.

[Deathra13]

"EDIT: That said, twisting a wish to immediately do horribly awful things to the wisher is the sign of a bad DM. A simple 'no' would suffice."-- Loxagn

Although this is true, if you have to say no to six or seven wishes and they argue for every one, bring out the biggest heaviest gun you've got. Use a full on literal and partial interpretation of their wish to make sure they know that arguing for overpowered wishes is a good way to bring suffering to themselves.

[Loxagn]

Oh yes, of course.

The way I see it, the gods are savvy to mortals' tricks.

The first time you try it, your xp gets refunded and you get a cordially-written note on parchment asking you very kindly not to do that again.

The second time you try it, you lose the xp cost and you receive a cease-and-desist order in a puff of foul-smelling smoke.

Try it a third time and the Plot Spiders come to bash your head in, Disintegrate the corpse, and Bind your soul to a very, very tiny gem before casting it into a prison demiplane with all the other stupid wizards. :smallannoyed:

[Lord Vukodlak]

"EDIT: That said, twisting a wish to immediately do horribly awful things to the wisher is the sign of a bad DM. A simple 'no' would suffice."-- Loxagn

Although this is true, if you have to say no to six or seven wishes and they argue for every one, bring out the biggest heaviest gun you've got. Use a full on literal and partial interpretation of their wish to make sure they know that arguing for overpowered wishes is a good way to bring suffering to themselves.

Yeah having a wish backfire makes a player a bit more careful about abusing wish. The rule about Twisting a wish to screw over a player isn't there for Bad DM's its there for bad players.



In the case of the Ring of Three Wishes, it is the item itself creating the wish. The cost is already there, pre-included when the item is made. No exceptions to the rule are made in the item's entry as they are in the case of a Wish scroll, therefore the rule 'you don't have to provide components for a command use item' still holds. It is this same rule that means you don't have to provide your own bat guano for a Necklace of Fireballs. It is really stupid and you ought to have to pay extra for such powerful effects, but ultimately that is the realm of RAI, not RAW.

A ring of three wishes doesn't cast wish, it stores a wish which is activated by the ring. Because the ring isn't loaded with additional xp it can't pay any xp cost beyond the original 5,000xp.

[TuggyNE]

Yes, but scrolls are different. If we were talking about a Scroll of Wish, then yes the caster would have to pay the cost unless the scroll has been given additional xp, since they are, effectively, casting the spell themselves. This is actually noted in the entry concerning a scroll of wish.

It's noted that the scroll has a particular set of XP included, yes. Whether that and the other several footnotes are actually exceptions to the rule is dubious.


In the case of the Ring of Three Wishes, it is the item itself creating the wish. The cost is already there, pre-included when the item is made. No exceptions to the rule are made in the item's entry as they are in the case of a Wish scroll, therefore the rule 'you don't have to provide components for a command use item' still holds.

Where is this rule found?

[Kazudo]

It's noted that the scroll has a particular set of XP included, yes. Whether that and the other several footnotes are actually exceptions to the rule is dubious.


Ever get the feeling that D&D 3.5e is just a hundred books full of footnotes?

[Doc_Maynot]

Ever get the feeling that D&D 3.5e is just a hundred books full of footnotes?

Yes, mostly when it comes to dragons.

[Alaris]

Wait... you would twist a +1 to a stat wish? Arent those safe?

I generally consider myself pretty lenient, but I can put it a better way for how Wishes work in my world.

Wishes have several factors, but I will focus on the primary two relevant to this situation:

1)Is the wish within the power level described by the spell?
2)Is the wish worded in a way that is less prone to misinterpretation?

1) First of all, for a wish to go off without a hitch, it must be within the power level of the spell. This means, you must go down the list, and find out if the wish the person has made would break the power limit. If it would break the power limit, then something will go wrong. It will backfire in some way, to be determined by the DM.

2) Did the character word the wish well? There are several ways one can word the wish you stated:

"I wish to be stronger!"
"I wish to be more intelligent!"
"I wish to gain the Grace of a Cat."
"I wish to gain, permanently (or inherently) a greater force of personality (or charisma)."


Wishes will occasionally show up in the form of scrolls, or offers by powerful Wizards or creatures, to my players, and I always want to make them think of what to wish for... and sometimes more importantly, how to wish for it. They could wish for something well within the power of the wish... but if they botch the wording of it, the powers that be will misinterpret it, and likely give them something else. A wish is a powerful, but dangerous tool to use. And hell, if worded well enough... one could even break the power limit of a wish, with little consequence.

I often include, though it is more subjective, a few other factors when someone makes a wish: Karmic Balance (more like adhearance to their chosen alignment; evil people can make wishes just as fairly as good people), and the interpretation of the caster. This means that, if someone finds a scroll of Wish, and they use it, the original creator's interpretation will be taken into effect when they make the wish (and thus, their personality, if they were evil, good, twisted, etc). This does mean, however, that if a player actually gets the capability to cast Wish under his own power... then it becomes much easier to not screw it up. His own interpretation is applied to the wish, to a degree, and thus wording is a bit less important.

Again, this is all how I use wish within my own campaign world. It is definitively not rules as written (RAW), but it certainly makes for some interesting experiences. The players have fun with coming up with wishes... and I've even had one who just throws caution to the wind, and makes whatever Wish he wants. It ended quite hilariously a few times... I believe a large group of undead within a several mile area wanted to "court" his character after that.

[Deathra13]

Ok, now you have me curious. Im guessing you dont allow the insane to create or grant wishes, but if you did, how exactly do you arbitrate the wish based on the interpretation of someone with no grip on reality?

[Synar]

Actually, no, it is not fine by RAW, as rule 0 IS RAW. Found in the dungeon master guide. So a DM fiating that you can't do that is absolutely RAW.

Plus, if you word insane wish and think only a bad DM would make it backfire, clearly there is something wrong with you. I mean, the SPELL ITSELF says that it can backfire. And you cannot tell that you didn't know that wishing for more wish was clear abuse, can you?

And, I wish to repeat, common sense trumps rules. Ever.

[eggynack]

Actually, no, it is not fine by RAW, as rule 0 IS RAW. Found in the dungeon master guide. So a DM fiating that you can't do that is absolutely RAW.
Yes, but that applies to literally everything. We can't assume a particular DM making particular rulings when arguing about rules interpretations.


Plus, if you word insane wish and think only a bad DM would make it backfire, clearly there is something wrong with you. I mean, the SPELL ITSELF says that it can backfire. And you cannot tell that you didn't know that wishing for more wish was clear abuse, can you?
No, the spell says it can backfire if you make an unsafe wish. This is not an unsafe wish. Thus, we are in fiat territory, which is, as above, a meaningless argument to make.

[TuggyNE]

Actually, no, it is not fine by RAW, as rule 0 IS RAW. Found in the dungeon master guide. So a DM fiating that you can't do that is absolutely RAW.

Rule 0 itself is RAW, yes, but those rules derived from its applications certainly are not, and thus your basic point is incorrect.

[Alaris]

Okay, now you have me curious. I'm guessing you don't allow the insane to create or grant wishes, but if you did, how exactly do you arbitrate the wish based on the interpretation of someone with no grip on reality?

Oh, insane creatures can certainly create or grant wishes. There can certainly be insane Wizards, or Sorcerers, especially other types of creatures who grant them, like Demons or other Monsters.

That said, it truly depends on the type of insanity. With certain types, with zero grip on reality, and no real knowledge of what's going on around them, wishing for more intelligence could grant you a fish. Now, since it's within the realm of power of the spell, that fish might be magical, and if you carry it around, it grants you an intelligence boost. But you'd also have to keep it alive, obviously.

Put simply, the spell itself tries to grant the wish stated, and is influenced by the caster/creator's interpretation of it. So, when you make a wish to the crazy, imprisoned sorcerer who has no grip on reality... sure, the spell will try to give you that powerful magical item, or that stat boost... but his interpretation of it, and reality, will twist the wish inherently.

That said, I have not as of yet, had an insane creature grant a wish to the PCs. I'd like to think that I would make it clear that the creature is insane, as it would be pretty unfair to not do so. If it's in the form of a scroll, or magic item that grants the wish, I would somehow make it clear that it's not your everyday Wish. I do not like to screw over my players... only make things interesting for both myself, and them.

[Thiyr]

A ring of three wishes doesn't cast wish, it stores a wish which is activated by the ring. Because the ring isn't loaded with additional xp it can't pay any xp cost beyond the original 5,000xp.

The issue for me comes down to how you interpret the item's description meaning store. There are two ways to look at it. The way you were responding to, where its similar to how a spell slot stores a spell. It is uncast and undefined. When you cast it, the details are locked in place, optional components are set, etc. That would include XP costs. Then the magic item rules come in and say that the XP costs are already covered by it being in an item. You're getting something from nothing, but that's not terribly out of place. It's D&D, wizards can do that with almost anything else, why not with XP?

Alternatively, there's the idea that it "stores" the spell similarly to a ring of spellstoring. The spell is pre-cast into the ring, meaning choices outside of targeting would be prechosen, The extra XP for item creation would be covered by the initial casting, but so are the uses. At that point, the RoTW is basically a giant spellstoring ring that can never be recharged or changed, which...doesn't make as much sense imo. That said, either would work.



As a side note, I really, really hate the way wish is represented in game as a spell. I'm down with wish-twisting when something like a djinni is doing it. Even when an item is doing it. But as a spell, wish twisting just doesn't make sense. You're bending the universe to your will. If you go outside the safe realm, yes, there should be consequences, but you're not asking someone else to do something, you're just editing reality. It should be reality refusing to bend and damaging you instead. Spell fails, you take major stat burn to your casting stat. Less "someone is twisting what you want to teach you a lesson", more "the universe is too high a level, you don't have nearly enough gym badges to train it." Reality Revision is a far better fit for a spell than wish is, given the descriptions we get. But that's just me

[Kazudo]

"the universe is too high a level, you don't have nearly enough gym badges to train it."

That's hilarious. Just had to say that.

And I agree for the most part with what you say. Though there is no real way that RAW could make this work, Rings of Three Wishes could have been created by an individual who really, really hated people. That would be more of a cursed item, however. An INTELLIGENT Ring of Three Wishes I could see wish-twisting. And yeah, anyone else who is essentially "casting wish on your behalf" could easily wish-twist it because they don't like you or think you have something to learn. Miracle, which is essentially GRANTED by a deity, could also be messed with. Casting the spell "Wish" yourself, however, shouldn't twist too far, just cause backlash (or fizzle; losing XP for nothing is still a pretty raw feeling) rather than being overly twisted. The only way I could see Wish being twisted by being personally cast is if, say, a Caster Level or Spellcraft check were required upon asking too much of the spell, with failing the check essentially saying "It takes a specific kind of language and intonation and...I dunno...purity of heart or lack thereof? Which you just cannot emulate, so the universe misinterpreted your wish and gave you this instead." Essentially, you jumped into the Code of the Universe and edited, but rather than crashing the Universe since it's running on a really good frameware, you really just caused the universe to "correct your code".

[Thiyr]

That's hilarious. Just had to say that.

And I agree for the most part with what you say. Though there is no real way that RAW could make this work, Rings of Three Wishes could have been created by an individual who really, really hated people. That would be more of a cursed item, however. An INTELLIGENT Ring of Three Wishes I could see wish-twisting.

Even just, like, a cursed ring of three wishes. As a hypothetical example, assume a world where wizards/sorcs get reality revision, and wishes that can be twisted are only available as SLAs to other beings which have limits on how they can use them. Djinni need to twist the wish, outside of safe choices that are things they consider "reasonable", and even they might have catches. Solars can only grant them to mortals who are pure of heart or something. Zodars can only use them in important situations, and their effects must be subtle enough to seem almost accidental, or something. The rings can only be made by such creatures, and need to follow the same limitations. Not even cursed items, at that point, just a medium so that there need not be personal interaction to get the desired result.

I think the only way I can see a self-cast wish being twisted maliciously (You wished for a ring of wishes, but the wishes you get granted all involve being stung by BEES. You wished for the orphans to be saved from the plague, so they all combusted and were burned alive instead! haHA!) is if the universe itself has a sentience. And while that could be cool, I'd figure it would manifest in more ways than just ******* over arcane casters of high enough level.

[Kazudo]

I'd figure it would manifest in more ways than just ******* over arcane casters of high enough level.

Or maybe that's the ONLY reason it would exist. Maybe fighters should get immunity from wish-twisting rules to balance things.

[Thiyr]

Or maybe that's the ONLY reason it would exist. Maybe fighters should get immunity from wish-twisting rules to balance things.

Monks get immunity and a free bonus wish. Truenamers get infinite wishes and get a free year to be the universe's sentience for this purpose, figuring out the most creative ways to mess with people.

[Vogonjeltz]

Only by a)GM fiat or b)not wishing for one of the safe options.
Wishing for a magic item is a safe option, and as for GM fiat the GM could just as well twist the Wizard's Wish for +1Int by aging him one age category. Or just give him +1Int and then teleport him into the sun.

No.



You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

That's not fiat, it's the rules as written.

[eggynack]

No.


That's not fiat, it's the rules as written.
Yes. The RAW states that you can have dangerous outcomes. If you produce greater effects. We are not doing so. If we're not producing greater effects, then the rules provide no support for danger.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yes. The RAW states that you can have dangerous outcomes. If you produce greater effects. We are not doing so. If we're not producing greater effects, then the rules provide no support for danger.

The rules also don't provide any support for the item providing the xp cost beyond the original 5,000.

[eggynack]

The rules also don't provide any support for the item providing the xp cost beyond the original 5,000.
True. This in particular likely doesn't work. The cited reason is the thing that's wrong.