A use for spellthief?

[Anachronity]

So I was reading http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.0 and saw that it mentioned ways to get beyond 6th level spells in the Chameleon class.

Now this might be a little silly, but does this work by RAW?: If a character takes a level of Spellthief, and then takes the Master Spellthief feat, his caster levels stack for the purpose of determining what level of spells he can steal. The Arcane Focus (and Divine Focus) of the Chameleon prestige class give you twice your Chameleon level to caster level. Now since the steal spell class ability specifically mentions that the spellthief casts the spell stolen, this would mean a Chameleon 7/Spellthief 1/(Some Casting Class to qualify for Chameleon) 4 would be able to steal and cast 9th level spells. Throw in the Sanctum Spell feat and he can now cast 10th level spells, allowing the use of the Extra Slot feat to gain 9th level spells with Chameleon.

If this works then you have 12th-level access to any 9th-level spell in any book at the cost of two feats (plus extra slot) and some lackluster early levels with an extremely flavorful entry class into Chameleon and the extra versatility of being able to steal spells. Now most sane DMs would never allow this outside of a high-OP campaign, but does this work technically?

... because that would make the Spellthief useful!

[Catalysis]

So I was reading http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.0 and saw that it mentioned ways to get beyond 6th level spells in the Chameleon class.

Now this might be a little silly, but does this work by RAW?: If a character takes a level of Spellthief, and then takes the Master Spellthief feat, his caster levels stack for the purpose of determining what level of spells he can steal. The Arcane Focus (and Divine Focus) of the Chameleon prestige class give you twice your Chameleon level to caster level. Now since the steal spell class ability specifically mentions that the spellthief casts the spell stolen, this would mean a Chameleon 7/Spellthief 1/(Some Casting Class to qualify for Chameleon) 4 would be able to steal and cast 9th level spells. Throw in the Sanctum Spell feat and he can now cast 10th level spells, allowing the use of the Extra Slot feat to gain 9th level spells with Chameleon.

If this works then you have 12th-level access to any 9th-level spell in any book at the cost of two feats (plus extra slot) and some lackluster early levels with an extremely flavorful entry class into Chameleon and the extra versatility of being able to steal spells. Now most sane DMs would never allow this outside of a high-OP campaign, but does this work technically?

... because that would make the Spellthief useful!

Hmmm, I really don't know all the mechanism involved, but I know for a fact that master spellthief will only stack caster level to determine the spells you can steal.

It doesn't improve your capacity to retain them.

CAdv specify that a spellthief can only absorb/hold a total of spell equal to his class level.

Your build could steal high level spell, but only keep one 1st level spell at a time...

So I don't think that makes you able to cast X level spell for Chameleon.

This only my comprehension of the class, note that I have played it for a great deal of time.

Maybe I overlooked something in your build, in that case, I sincerly apologise :smallannoyed:

The uses of spellthief is to disarm magical traps by absorbing the most dangerous ones. Spellthieves can also be great at punching enemy lines if they take some spells from their full spellcaster friends and cast those offensive spells at the same time as these caster. You can also use karma and absorb spell to debuff and make use of those various curses or use it to cast one of your utility spells.

But in the end, a wizard is more of a mage-killer than the spellthief.

[Feint's End]

... because that would make the Spellthief useful!

Only in TO because in most campaigns something like this is far out of PO. I'm not even sure it would fly in one of Tippy's games.

Gonna take a look at the mechanics later.

[Catalysis]

If I remember correctly, Fax Celestis once said on one of his numerous tread about spellthieves that Wizard of the Coast denied the fact the steal spell ability of the spellthieves qualifies them for prestige class with prerequisite to be able to cast X level of spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If a character takes a level of Spellthief, and then takes the Master Spellthief feat, his caster levels stack for the purpose of determining what level of spells he can steal.

No, his spellcaster levels (i.e., levels in spellcasting classes) stack for determining his caster level for each class. Bonuses to caster level are not added in when using Master Spellthief.

For example, a Spellthief 4/ Beguiler 3/ Mindbender 1 with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler has a Beguiler spellcaster level of four (three class levels, +1 for Mindbender), and normally a caster level of eight. With Master Spellthief, his caster level would be set to eight because it totals his spellcaster levels and his Spellthief level, then Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't give him anything at all because his caster level after Master Spellthief already equals his character level. If you apply Practiced Spellcaster first, you would have a caster level of eight for Beguiler but still a spellcaster level of four, and Master Spellthief will still set your caster level for all arcane classes to eight.

Arcane Focus or Divine Focus state, "Your caster level is equal to twice your class level." This sets your caster level to a specific value, which overrides any bonuses or modifications which were applied beforehand. For example, take a Spellthief 1/ Beguiler 4/ Chameleon 6 with Master Spellthief. If you apply Master Spellthief first, it sets your caster level in all arcane classes to eleven since it only counts class levels, then Arcane Focus sets your Chameleon caster level to twelve. If you apply Arcane Focus first, your Chameleon caster level will be set to twelve, then Master Spellthief sets your caster level in all arcane classes including chameleon to eleven. The two are incompatible, there's no benefit to doing this.

[Anachronity]

@Biffoniacus_Furiou: Alright, that makes sense.

I'm still curious if the spell steal mechanic enables that sort of extra slot nonsense though, even if it requires 9 levels of spellthief to properly store the spell. Catalysis mentioned that it doesn't count for qualifications, but I'd like to see the source for that.

[Catalysis]

@Biffoniacus_Furiou: Alright, that makes sense.

I'm still curious if the spell steal mechanic enables that sort of extra slot nonsense though, even if it requires 9 levels of spellthief to properly store the spell. Catalysis mentioned that it doesn't count for qualifications, but I'd like to see the source for that.

I found it!

Originally postes on this forum by Fax Celestis at: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95070-3-5-The-Spellthief-Theurge

"...And, unfortunately, Steal Spell doesn't qualify you for stuff--I confirmed this with CustServ because otherwise it'd be The Most Broken Thing Ever™."

I'm not really sure if CustServ is part of something official with in WotC, though.

[Chronos]

There are a few tricks that spellthieves are good for, though. For instance, if you have a spellthief of at least 5th level in the same party as a factotum, the spellthief can steal the factotum's spell-like abilities for unlimited uses per day.

[Incanur]

Master Spellthief alone allows for a strong character if you just houserule that it advances stolen spell storage too.

[dextercorvia]

There are a few tricks that spellthieves are good for, though. For instance, if you have a spellthief of at least 5th level in the same party as a factotum, the spellthief can steal the factotum's spell-like abilities for unlimited uses per day.

My next gestalt combination. Thanks.

[Anlashok]

I confirmed this with CustServ because otherwise it'd be The Most Broken Thing Ever™."

I'm not really sure if CustServ is part of something official with in WotC, though.


They aren't

Customer Service is a random third party WoTC outsources to, their opinion on rules carries no more weight than say, yours or my own. They have absolutely no affiliation with WoTC devs or writers whatsoever. They just have a few guys who know how to play the game and make guesses, and almost always on the conservative side of things.

Like I've seen two people ask CustServ the same question worded slightly differently and get opposite answers.

[Anachronity]

So it could hypothetically work, just at a later level than 12th. (and depending on interpretation of spell steal as casting)

[Catalysis]

They aren't

Customer Service is a random third party WoTC outsources to, their opinion on rules carries no more weight than say, yours or my own. They have absolutely no affiliation with WoTC devs or writers whatsoever. They just have a few guys who know how to play the game and make guesses, and almost always on the conservative side of things.

Like I've seen two people ask CustServ the same question worded slightly differently and get opposite answers.

Thank you for the clarification. Seems like the OP build can work with a flexible DM then. Good luck:smallsmile:!