What makes Dragons so scary?

[Komatik]

They have non-sucktastic RHD, attack routines that give Totemists a run for their money and can strafe ground-bound opponents. But we all know that magic is broken and dragons are typically lacking in comparison to the party arcanist. Am I missing something or shouldn't the friendly neighborhood wizard just mop the floor with the overgrown gecko? (as far as a caster can mop another one, anyway)

[The Viscount]

Casters can and often do defeat dragons thanks to the dragon-killers: Shivering Touch and its brother Lesser Shivering Touch. Every dragon has 10 dex, which is dangerously easy to take away.

[OrlockDelesian]

This:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

[sideswipe]

They have non-sucktastic RHD, attack routines that give Totemists a run for their money and can strafe ground-bound opponents. But we all know that magic is broken and dragons are typically lacking in comparison to the party arcanist. Am I missing something or shouldn't the friendly neighborhood wizard just mop the floor with the overgrown gecko? (as far as a caster can mop another one, anyway)

the point is they are a strong opponent.
(these are all generic things they can usually do. not all dragons can do these).
break action economy.
passively weaken weak willed opponents.
hit harder then all but the heavily optimised fighting classes.
cast spells like a sorcerer. a strong class in itself.
they fly and move stupidly fast.
have damage reduction.
have spell resistance.
have repeated AOE attacks.
usually have other tricks up their sleeve for bad situations.

you also have to remember the intended party of 4 is not meant to be-
an ubercharger
an optimised wizard
a persist cleric
and PUN-PUN (a joke)

these are optimised characters to the max that laugh at most equivalent fights.

[Vhaidara]

They have non-sucktastic RHD, attack routines that give Totemists a run for their money and can strafe ground-bound opponents. But we all know that magic is broken and dragons are typically lacking in comparison to the party arcanist. Am I missing something or shouldn't the friendly neighborhood wizard just mop the floor with the overgrown gecko? (as far as a caster can mop another one, anyway)

Well, the big thing is that high level casters aren't that common.

Also, Dragons ARE high level casters. And if you go around wiping them all out, you get Big Dracomomma Tiamat or Big Dracodaddy Bahamut (or, if you really screw it up, both) knocking on your door with DSAs that will make you cry yourself to sleep.

[Techwarrior]

What makes dragons scary?

Let's take the 'weakest' dragon type, white, at the lowest CR it gets to cast spells, 10.

This CR 10 creature is:
A very competent melee threat. 189 average HP, +18 BAB, Large size, and a Full Attack routine better than most other creatures. This dragon is quite easily going to be Power Attacking away just for fun. +23 to hit means that you have to have 25 AC before he even cares, and that's assuming no situational modifiers.
Very hard to get to without resorting to touch attacks. It's 'low' save is +11 before feats, gear, or buffs; and it has 26 base AC, making it reasonably difficult for a Full BAB melee fighter, and even more so for anyone else. A grapple mod of 'lol no' and SR that's good enough to make a character with CL 10 fail 40% of the time rounds out this creatures defense.
Skills. Your skill monkey has to be gunning for skills to be able to have a reasonable chance to beat a dragon. It's got an additional 8 hit dice worth 6+ Int skills to work with. That's +8 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen more than your party Rogue. It also has plenty of extra senses, so be wary of that Invisible mage. On top of all of that, True Dragons universally have Use Magic Device as a class skill, and decent Charisma. You better believe that they can use any item that comes their way.
Versatile attacks. At base, a Dragon targets your Will save with it's Frightful Presence (which will quite possibly escalate to Panicked), Reflex with it's breath weapon, AC with it's quite lethal full-attack routine, and then it gets spells as a Sorcerer. So, it's quite for it to also picked up a ranged touch attack (Ray of Clumsiness or Enfeeblement), and possibly a Fortitiude save effect (Wall of Smoke). Since it casts as a Sorcerer, it also gains extra benefit from magic items: specifically wands, scrolls, and runestaves. If you have a weakness, it will find it, possibly even by accident.
Home Turf. A True Dragon has prepared the entire area of it's home to be a hazard to any who threaten it. Environmental effects that it can easily ignore, traps it knows how to bypass, you name it, and it's done it. An Adult Dragon has lived for a century in hostile territory, and you're most likely not the first adventuring party to try and take it down. An adventuring party that doesn't prepare for an expedition to a Dragon's lair is a dead one.
All of the above? Consumes very little of a Dragon's resources. It has 7 feats, and although they almost all are likely to have Fly-By Attack, Power Attack, and Multiattack, they also have 4 more to easily customize themselves. Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer), Wingover, Breath Weapon feats and anything else that catches the DM's eye are within the realms of possibility.

Now, there are tricks to easily kill a dragon. There's also a really good possibility that the dragon knows it's weaknesses and attempts to cover them.

[Zweisteine]

What makes dragons scary?
[long list of things that make a dragon scary
Also, it's a dragon. Scary.

[Komatik]

Obviously those things are scary. A fighter who can blow up mountains with his pinky is scary in a way. But he still gets mopped by a wizard, easy. That's what I was getting at - Dragons are subpar spellcasters. What would make one actully scary to a wizard?

[ryu]

Obviously those things are scary. A fighter who can blow up mountains with his pinky is scary in a way. But he still gets mopped by a wizard, easy. That's what I was getting at - Dragons are subpar spellcasters. What would make one actully scary to a wizard?

Tippy level optimization. Think entire planes of existence where only the dragon is allowed to cast spells of any school at base, selective AMF defense on top of that, and also an optimized spellcaster on top of those defenses with all that implies. Also all of that is just for starters.

[Cicciograna]

Watch this (http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-circle-strafe/).

It's enlightening on how Dragons should really be played.

[Deathra13]

Don't forget Dragons are supposed to be genius level tactitians with many many years of experience on their side. Whether a DM can play them up as such is a different story. But given all the flat rules abilities given so far and the dragons thoughts. Honestly if it weren't for the gentlemands agreement almost any dragon who could would have disjunction set and ready should they start seeing a lot of gear causing them problems. They'd also target the biggest threat, and having lived in this world this long they know that the guy chanting in the robes, is the biggest issue. Aside from all of that, a dragon by its very nature isn't just going to up and fight adventurers if it can intimidate them, or just talk them into leaving. During all conversation any preparation that can be made will be.

[The Insaniac]

The biggest thing that dragons have going for them? Triple standard treasure. That includes magic items. The dragon should be using all of the available magic items (scrolls, wands, staffs, wondrous items, rings...) to beat the stuffing out of the party.

[Katana1515]

The main mistake I see done with Dragons is inexperienced DM's pulling the creatures straight out of the MM and playing them like that, much like they do other creatures. Under those circumstances the Dragon is a semi-reasonable threat to the average low to mid op party, and a flying XP balloon for anything more optimised. For a Dragon to live up to its potential then it needs to be purpose crafted for the encounter, with a carefully designed battlefield to represent the cunning care the paranoid beast will have put into its lair. Moreover its spells, items and minions should all be keyed to the parties strengths and weaknesses to represent the watchful eye even the dumbest white keeps on powerful groups in its territory.

For a good DM with a highish degree of system knowledge (which hopefully you have if you have optimising players, otherwise god help you) the True Dragon is a chassis, the delivery system for all of your wildest power fantasy's and the tactical ballistic missile by which your PC's greatest nightmares are roughly shoved down their unwilling throats.

All the things Techwarrior lists should be augmented by the absolute fecktons of gear a money loving lizard has inevitably amassed in its existence. Even a handful of sorcerer levels can add a huge amount of versatility, something as simple as stacking mage armour and shield on top of his AC can make him very difficult to hit with melee attacks. blur, mirror image, displacement can all be effective responses to mages using touch attacks. These are just off the top of my head examples, you need to tailor for the tactics of the PC's.

The sum moral of the argument is that if players are optimising. which the OP seems to assume in this case, the DM has to take appropriate action because no standard CR challenge ripped straight from the book is going cut it any more, particularly not as a boss style encounter. The dragon is perhaps the most iconic example of this, it needs a degree of tender love and care before it can make the grade against an optimised party. However the great base stats for its CR and wide range of abilities that Techwarrior points out make it a wonderful platform for an inventive DM to make noteworthy villains with.

anyway! just my 2cents!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

They have non-sucktastic RHD, attack routines that give Totemists a run for their money and can strafe ground-bound opponents. But we all know that magic is broken and dragons are typically lacking in comparison to the party arcanist. Am I missing something or shouldn't the friendly neighborhood wizard just mop the floor with the overgrown gecko? (as far as a caster can mop another one, anyway)
What makes dragons so scary? The fact that you are crunchy and will taste good with ketchup. :smallbiggrin:

[Sir Chuckles]

Obviously those things are scary. A fighter who can blow up mountains with his pinky is scary in a way. But he still gets mopped by a wizard, easy. That's what I was getting at - Dragons are subpar spellcasters. What would make one actully scary to a wizard?

Do realize that you're comparing it to something that makes all but DM fiat cry.
Anything compared to the theoretical optimized Wizard that you probably have in mind is trivial.

A Dragon is a challenge for anyone that's not a 20th level ultra-optimized Tier 1.
I'd like to bring up it's x3 treasure list again. Even a single White Wyrmling, CR 2, could be packing a rather dangerous amount of acid or alchemist's fire, if not a usable scroll or potion.

[Anlashok]

They're fairly strong casters with a better-than-fighter chassis and lots of free tools, what's not to be scary about them?

To say "they aren't scary because they can't beat an optimized wizard" is pretty damn silly though because nothing is particularly scary to an optimized full caster. It's not so much a black mark against dragons as it is a black mark against T1/T2 classes.

[Renen]

Dragons dont cast like sorcerers.
Sorcerers cast like dragons
:D

[AnonymousPepper]

There's so many ways to make a dragon even stronker than usual.

One of the easiest is to use the same tricks you'd use for a TO dragonwrought kobold - use the material from Dragons of Eberron and Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon and so on to strengthen them. Loredrake will give them two levels of Sorc casting, for example, beyond their class level.

[Vinyl Scratch]

Dragons are what created (some) spellcasters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)

[Brookshw]

See that pile of diamonds over there? Those are compressed remains of the carbon leftovers of the last adventuring party to wander in. Think your special and have some crazy trick? Please, we figured those our thousands of years ago while you monkeys learned to stack rocks into walls. Give it up. Shivering touch? Pfft, if we choose not to have a selective antimagic field up with all the contingencies we can stack its because were feeling generous. It's the cutest thing that you think these silly tricks are new and not planned for. Please, we were here for thousands of years before you, will be for thousands of years after you, and your cleverness is something we devised a counter for long ago. If you want to see old age I'm not your huckleberry.

But no, seriously, a dragon can pull off all the same high op shenanigans. Don't be fooled they pack everything from a smart wizard to an ubercharger and everything in between. If you laugh at them you've never faced an appropriately counter-op'd dragon.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Basically, it's due to having very strong HD, a lot of HD for their CR, and just being so well rounded. Of the "good at everything" variety, not the "jack of all trades" kind. It can fly, take on two fighters of its CR in melee, cast like a sorcerer of nearly its level, has not horrible spell resistance, and can spam long range AoE breath weapons while strafing with the flight. Hell, the upper half of dragons can make the PCs run away in fear just by flying over them and divide up the party.

I think they get dismissed as not too hard solely due to Shivering Touch too much. One broken spell... so easy to ban.... Or just have the dragon use Scintillating Scales to counter.

Dragons are, in fact, quite nasty for their CR.

[Vhaidara]

Basically, Dragon = Sorcerer with d12 hit die, full BAB, better saves, a ton of natural attacks, natural armor, SR, Ex flight, a breath weapon, and some other special stuff varying from dragon to dragon. Oh, and triple the money.

Remember, power wise there is no difference between T1 and T2 (and little difference between T2 and T3). The difference is in versatility. I would (almost) argue that a 20th level commoner with triple PC wealth could fight a 20th level wizard. How? Raw abuse of UMD and having money.

Also, I just thought of a really funny idea. The dragon put it's entire treasure value into hiring people. Not very realistic, but very mean to the players.

[ericgrau]

This:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
That one had far more casting than normal though.

They fly, have an area attack which all groups hate (and adventurers almost always travel in groups), hit hard and have good stats in general, can exploit their size, have blindsense, often have a small handful of useful special abilities, and they get a ton of general feats from all their HD which may add more. Not merely a couple pieces of that but all that simultaneously can get scary.

So they get quite a lot, but they still do not match the versatility of wizards. But I've never seen the theoretical forum type wizard in actual play or even read about someone describing their gaming session with one in a thread. What tends to happen is that rather than being able to do anything they have a finite number of spells and that then sets the limits on what they do. It then becomes no more infinite than a feat or class choice. In theory they could carefully plan their spells, shift and adapt as needed. In practice, I dunno, maybe people are lazy.

I have heard of a limited number of specific abilities get crazy, though. Like abrupt jaunt or shivering touch. Those could be scarier than most dragons. Until the dragon has abrupt jaunt, scintillating scales and so on. Then either the nuke war escalates or the ban hammer comes down.

[OldTrees1]

Dragons are trivial to Tier 2 (game breaking abilities) played as Tier 2 since Dragon NPCs are many caster levels behind a PC caster.

BUT

As others have shown above, Dragons are a challenge to Tier 1 played as Tier 3 (not game breaking).

[Averis Vol]

Casters can and often do defeat dragons thanks to the dragon-killers: Shivering Touch and its brother Lesser Shivering Touch. Every dragon has 10 dex, which is dangerously easy to take away.

If you can catch him off guard. If not, Scintillating scales (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/scintillating-scales--4129/) says hi.

[Warlocknthewind]

Because they can still take class levels

Dragon with Sorcerer levels stack together.
Just let that sit for a minute.

Now think about a dragon with Totemist and Pouncebarian levels.

A high level dragon Dragonfire Adept makes me want to run in fear, aura or not.

[Der_DWSage]

And if you decide that the Wizard might pop a True Strike to counter Scintillating Scales...

Let's give our old friend the SRD a look, shall we? Hello, Spell Immunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm)

[TuggyNE]

And if you decide that the Wizard might pop a True Strike to counter Scintillating Scales...

Let's give our old friend the SRD a look, shall we? Hello, Spell Immunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm)

To ... true strike? :smallconfused: That definitely won't work. Or did you mean to shivering touch? Because if it's the latter, that makes scintillating scales irrelevant as a counter in the first place.

[Dr. Azkur]

What really makes dragons scary is their Frightful Presence (Ex) (http://instantrimshot.com)

I had to.

[OldTrees1]

Let's give our old friend the SRD a look, shall we? Hello, Spell Immunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm)
So using a higher level spell to counter Shivering touch & Dragons NPCs are several caster levels behind PC Wizards? That works but only if the dragon does not encounter wizards before then.


What really makes dragons scary is their Frightful Presence (Ex) (http://instantrimshot.com)

I had to.

:smallbiggrin: Some might even have ranks in Intimidate

[Arbane]

To ... true strike? :smallconfused: That definitely won't work. Or did you mean to shivering touch? Because if it's the latter, that makes scintillating scales irrelevant as a counter in the first place.

Yes, but there's plenty of other annoying touch-spells. And it'll help fake out the wizard when his first Shivering Touch fails.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.htmlAs a comic that works fine, but I wouldn't rely on that particular strip for knowledge about how the game works. First, Forcecage is too small to contain the dragon. Second, (this might be a rules dysfunction but) AMF shouldn't emanate like that. Third, since Forcecage is "like Wall of Force", it persists in an AMF.

And in any event, the real point is that the Dragon won because it had more spellcasting than usual, i.e. it was optimized to be a caster with better HD and items.

Speaking of which, Steel Dragons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) are definitely scary. Take the Adult, who casts as a Sorcerer 11 (or Sorcerer 13 with Loredrake, or Wizard 13 with Loredrake and Spellhoarding), has gobs of nice dragon hit dice, has SR 36 against spells of level 1-4 (including Shivering Touch), a 200' flight speed in dragon form, and a mediocre breath weapon. CR 8.

[AnonymousPepper]

So using a higher level spell to counter Shivering touch & Dragons NPCs are several caster levels behind PC Wizards? That works but only if the dragon does not encounter wizards before then.

They have innate Sorc abilities, which would stack normally with any Sorc class levels if you chose to add any (although as I understand it just adding RHD would work, wouldn't it?); this is sufficiently explained in MM1 294 under Associated Class Levels. And again you can slap Loredrake from Dragons of Eberron on there, cutting their HD to d10 but giving them +2 Sorc casting levels (again, this is basic kobold shenanigans, except applied as intended - wow!).

A Dragon that casts as a Sorc - aka many of them naturally - and is two levels beyond an otherwise equal-level wizard has not only caught up to the wizard but has in fact exceeded the wizard. Dragons are not necessarily that far behind a PC caster, if at all, so long as they're left as sorcerers and not something stupid that doesn't mesh like an Archivist or something (although you can even make them Wizard standins as prepared with the Riddled template from one of the Dragon magazines iirc).

And let's throw in that sorcs tend to make much better blasters than wizards due to better staying power for their blasts as spontaneous casters. And considering that an evil dragon has no reason to have much in the way of utility spells when it can just carry a bunch of different blasts to throw at people? We're potentially talking near-Mailman levels of sorcerous blasty death.

All that on top of the usual dragon shenanigans thanks to the fact that they have racial, nonmagical (and therefore non-dispellable) flight and a ranged natural AoE weapon. And their big hit die - even Loredrakes will blow a wizard away on HP totals, making them much more survivable.

A PC Wizard and an NPC dragon Sorc of equal optimization can easily turn into a game of rocket tag akin to that of two high-level opposing wizards. Don't underestimate dragon spellcasting.

[OldTrees1]

Speaking of which, Steel Dragons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) are definitely scary. Take the Adult, who casts as a Sorcerer 11 (or Sorcerer 13 with Loredrake, or Wizard 13 with Loredrake and Spellhoarding), has gobs of nice dragon hit dice, has SR 36 against spells of level 1-4 (including Shivering Touch), a 200' flight speed in dragon form, and a mediocre breath weapon. CR 8.

Wow that is scary. On a 1v1 fight Elf Wizard 12(8[Dragon CR] + 4) vs Adult Dragon, the Dragon is only behind by 1 spell level. And that gap can be reverse to ahead 1 spell level via the templates.

I now have a new favorite Dragon type. :smallbiggrin:


They have innate Sorc abilities, which would stack normally with any Sorc class levels if you chose to add any (although as I understand it just adding RHD would work, wouldn't it?); this is sufficiently explained in MM1 294 under Associated Class Levels. And again you can slap Loredrake from Dragons of Eberron on there, cutting their HD to d10 but giving them +2 Sorc casting levels (again, this is basic kobold shenanigans, except applied as intended - wow!).

A Dragon that casts as a Sorc - aka many of them naturally - and is two levels beyond an otherwise equal-level wizard has not only caught up to the wizard but has in fact exceeded the wizard. Dragons are not necessarily that far behind a PC caster, if at all, so long as they're left as sorcerers and not something stupid that doesn't mesh like an Archivist or something (although you can even make them Wizard standins as prepared with the Riddled template from one of the Dragon magazines iirc).

But how many of them are only 2 caster levels behind when in a 1 PC vs 1 NPC fight? (Besides the Steel Dragon)

Core Dragons with the smallest CR - Caster level gap: Young Brass (5), Brass Wyrm(4)

So if it were a 1v1 CR = Party level fight (50% chance of TPK when accounting for smaller party), you would have either a 21st level Epic Wizard vs a 19th caster level Dragon or a 5th level Wizard vs a 3rd caster level Dragon. If it were a 1v1 CR = Party level - 4 (standard encounter when accounting for smaller party), you would have either a 25th level Epic Wizard vs a 19th caster level Dragon or a 9th level Wizard vs a 3rd caster level Dragon. Remember all other Core dragons are even further behind.

[Raimun]

Why dragons are so good?

There's only thing they can't do well. And that's fitting to small spaces.

Sure, I've killed (and/or taken part in killing) many dragons but they are still always more than a challenge. Shivering Touch was not used even once and Pathfinder doesn't even have the spell.

[Komatik]

Speaking of which, Steel Dragons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) are definitely scary. Take the Adult, who casts as a Sorcerer 11 (or Sorcerer 13 with Loredrake, or Wizard 13 with Loredrake and Spellhoarding), has gobs of nice dragon hit dice, has SR 36 against spells of level 1-4 (including Shivering Touch), a 200' flight speed in dragon form, and a mediocre breath weapon. CR 8.

CR8 Sorc 11/13, tripledouble standard treasure sounds fair XD
They hilariously don't seem to work according to flavour as written, though, because their Polymorph SLA lacks the standard "can stay in alt form indefinitely" clause.

[Snowbluff]

Watch this (http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-circle-strafe/).

It's enlightening on how Dragons should really be played.

Debunked. Players are better fliers, and prepping around the breath weapon type is easy.

Spoony doesn't understand 3.5. very well.

[OldTrees1]

Debunked. Players are better fliers, and prepping around the breath weapon type is easy.

Huh? Players tend to be slower but more maneuverable. What makes them better fliers?

[Vhaidara]

I think he covers the everyman's view, as opposed to what we usually use here, which is the optimizer's view.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Huh? Players tend to be slower but more maneuverable. What makes them better fliers?Specifically dragons can't even circle that tightly, and their maneuverability is going to be a problem. (Solution: Wingover, Wings of Air). The big problem is the party preparing for the fight with the breath weapon in mind.
I think he covers the everyman's view, as opposed to what we usually use here, which is the optimizer's view.He's taking an everyman kind of game, and then he's optimizing the dragon's tactics. So... what's scary is optimization, not dragons, at least in this case.

[Coidzor]

They have innate Sorc abilities, which would stack normally with any Sorc class levels if you chose to add any (although as I understand it just adding RHD would work, wouldn't it?); this is sufficiently explained in MM1 294 under Associated Class Levels. And again you can slap Loredrake from Dragons of Eberron on there, cutting their HD to d10 but giving them +2 Sorc casting levels (again, this is basic kobold shenanigans, except applied as intended - wow!).

And let's throw in that sorcs tend to make much better blasters than wizards due to better staying power for their blasts as spontaneous casters. And considering that an evil dragon has no reason to have much in the way of utility spells when it can just carry a bunch of different blasts to throw at people? We're potentially talking near-Mailman levels of sorcerous blasty death.

Adding RHD won't work unless there's some alternate rules I've forgotten about. Dragons advance their spellcasting by changing age category, by taking the Loredrake Sovereign Archetype, or by leveling in character classes(including racial progression classes).

OTOH, if they already have a half-decent breath weapon, the draw of many blasting spells decreases.


CR8 Sorc 11/13, tripledouble standard treasure sounds fair XD
They hilariously don't seem to work according to flavour as written, though, because their Polymorph SLA lacks the standard "can stay in alt form indefinitely" clause.

The most recent version fixes that by giving them alternate form, IIRC.

[ArqArturo]

My problem with approaching dragons, quite at the beginning, was that players saw them as flying bags of XP and treasure. And the problem lies on the fact that dragons are played, quite often, in and open battleground with maneuverability for all.

This is a big mistake.

For one to play a dragon properly, use the terrain for their advantage. Maybe the dragon has charmed/tamed/enthralled some beasts in his control. Maybe he has village of kobolds, or an orc warren, or maybe a hobgoblin fortress alongside his lair, or maybe in his lair. Maybe he can hire mercenaries, or perhaps even dealing with adventurers themselves. I had a group in which a dhampir monk/gunslinger was a mercenary that had a tendency to double-cross her clients in order to get more money. This made her quite a lot of enemies and no one wanted to hire her, except for a guy that heard she and the group were going to fight off a green dragon.

The guy offered her a nice sum of money if, at the lair, she killed everyone. She agreed but had planned to double-cross her client once the deed was done. However, the guy also hired another character, an alchemist/barbarian, to take on the gunslinger 'in case she went feral'.

Suffice to say, thanks to PC greed, I managed to kill two of the most optimized characters in the group. And yes, the guy doing it was the dragon all along.

[Coidzor]

My problem with approaching dragons, quite at the beginning, was that players saw them as flying bags of XP and treasure. And the problem lies on the fact that dragons are played, quite often, in and open battleground with maneuverability for all.

This is a big mistake.

For one to play a dragon properly, use the terrain for their advantage. Maybe the dragon has charmed/tamed/enthralled some beasts in his control. Maybe he has village of kobolds, or an orc warren, or maybe a hobgoblin fortress alongside his lair, or maybe in his lair. Maybe he can hire mercenaries, or perhaps even dealing with adventurers themselves. I had a group in which a dhampir monk/gunslinger was a mercenary that had a tendency to double-cross her clients in order to get more money. This made her quite a lot of enemies and no one wanted to hire her, except for a guy that heard she and the group were going to fight off a green dragon.

The guy offered her a nice sum of money if, at the lair, she killed everyone. She agreed but had planned to double-cross her client once the deed was done. However, the guy also hired another character, an alchemist/barbarian, to take on the gunslinger 'in case she went feral'.

Suffice to say, thanks to PC greed, I managed to kill two of the most optimized characters in the group. And yes, the guy doing it was the dragon all along.

Relying on the players to constantly backstab one another is not a sustainable practice for most groups, however. :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

Specifically dragons can't even circle that tightly, and their maneuverability is going to be a problem. (Solution: Wingover, Wings of Air).

Poor Manueverability can make laps with very little interference. 5ft lost per pass and the ends of the lanes need to be 15ft wider than the dragon. The majority of the lane can be merely dragon width.

Clumsy Manueverability is where they stop being able to circle tightly. They lose 55ft per pass if they try to loop. However Wingover is a viable feat.

I thought their much higher speed made up for the reduced manueverability. Fast & Clumsy can catch Slow & Agile but not vice versa.

[Chronos]

My group is currently playing a dragon-centric campaign. The first time we met one, the DM started digging through his notes looking for the Frightful Presence DC. I told him "Let me save you the trouble. If we fail the save, we're going to run like little girls. If we succeed on the save, we're going to run like little girls.".

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Poor Manueverability can make laps with very little interference. 5ft lost per pass and the ends of the lanes need to be 15ft wider than the dragon. The majority of the lane can be merely dragon width.

Clumsy Manueverability is where they stop being able to circle tightly. They lose 55ft per pass if they try to loop. However Wingover is a viable feat.

I thought their much higher speed made up for the reduced manueverability. Fast & Clumsy can catch Slow & Agile but not vice versa.Out in the open with no cover, the speed is going to matter more than the maneuverability (which is why I must disagree with Arqturo, a lack of terrain/cover is great for a dragon). But if you can force the dragon to engage in certain ways via some form of sturdy cover (a nearby cave for instance) the PCs can hover and ready, while the Dragon has a hard time actually disengaging after firing off its offense. Again, there are feat and spell based solutions to this; it's harder to overcome PCs who have prepared for the energy type of the breath weapon and shrug off the strafing breath weapon like it ain't no thing.

[ArqArturo]

Relying on the players to constantly backstab one another is not a sustainable practice for most groups, however. :smalltongue:

But it does give the players an important lesson in teamwork :p.

[Lans]

The dradon can sgrafe using his spells though. Not as effective but much greater range

[atomicwaffle]

to me, what makes a dragon scary is their intelligence and cunning. These are beings of mythological proportions who live centuries (or millenia, depending on the setting). The evil ones have the capacity to plot for said centuries, or become top of the food chain in whatever environment they are in.

Dragons can polymorph and change their shape. They can blend in with the local populace and assume positions of power within the military and government. They are masters of diplomacy and coercing and/or influencing entire NATIONS. That commander in the army could be a bronze in disguise and you would never know it.

You won't catch a dragon off-guard or unawares, ever. They have ungodly senses and have seen more combat than you've been alive. A shape-changed dragon could hear your conversation across a crowded room during a party, if it wanted. It could cast Detect Thoughts or scry on the group of adventurers that wandered into 'its' territory.

IF you ever meet a dragon, it either wanted to meet you for whatever reason, or you dun goof'd, and you most likely won't know your meeting a dragon. Perhaps an old silver assumed the shape of a beggar to test the quality of your character and your CN rogue decides it would be fun to rob him.

When fighting a dragon you are always at a disadvantage because its their turf, their time, and their conditions.

[Darkweave31]

Lore, myth, and tier 2 caster levels with enough cunning to give them some real clout when played intelligently by the DM.

[CaDzilla]

Dragons can get minions either through breeding or treasure and have the strategic minds to manage them.
To counter shivering touch, you can just make your dragon half-white.

[Svata]

Silver works too.

[Eldariel]

Intelligent, early epic feat access, archetypes, robust defenses across the board, robust physical routine, mobile. Most importantly tho, they're rich, smart, imposing, wise, and live potentially for millenia. That's a really nice combination for acquiring a really good position to do whatever the hell you want. The scary ones are of course the ones with good spellcasting; it's unbelievable how well spellcasting meshes with the rest of the Dragons' kit (it meshes well with most things but with Dragons having mostly good everything with few feats, you have really nice base values to start up from).

[Kaeso]

In universe, I think their intelligence would be very intimidating. A dragon has an intellgence score of around 40. The max intelligence for a human being is 19 (18 natural intelligence, +1 from level 4. Consider that realistically, the most skilled human beings are level 6). Just imagine that. Imagine some of the smartest human beings to have ever lived, people like Einstein, Newton, Pascal, Cauchy, Gauss, Napoleon and the like. Now consider that a dragon is literally twice as intelligent as any of these men. TWICE. Can you even begin to understand how flippin' intelligent they must be? "A five year old attending a lecture on quantum mechanics" does not even begin to describe how confusing it must be to speak to a dragon.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, one thing I feel would really help dragons is if Intimidate didn't suck. And if people realized that Intimidate deserves the most liberal application of Circumstance modifiers of every skill in the game.

For example (this is one I'm running with soon), I have a half red-dragon warforged (crafted in that shape) with a homebrew half-dragon giving everyone wings and the Maug Rollers graft (essentially, I have tank treads). I am also a Dragonfire Adept. So I drop out of the sky, spewing fire everywhere, and land on the guy next to you. And apparently, because I have an 8 Cha and no ranks in Intimidate, I'm not scary in the slightest. There is no real motivation for people to RUN THE HELL AWAY FROM THE FLYING FLAMETHROWER TANK. And if I choose to, I can spend 6 seconds staring someone down to give them an insignificant penalty for one round by making a skill check at a -1 penalty. But somehow that is more intimidating than incinerating the three guys standing to his left.

Intimidate is a skill that needs help to function the way it should, and dragons should be able to abuse the ever loving hells out of it. Because they are dragons, and you are not.

[squiggit]

So I drop out of the sky, spewing fire everywhere, and land on the guy next to you. And apparently, because I have an 8 Cha and no ranks in Intimidate, I'm not scary in the slightest
But the halfling bard who plays a lute for the duration of the fight, all rosy cheeked and starry eyed and who can barely hold their weapon straight... can make grizzled veterans and trained assassins fall to their knees and weep in terror.

[Zalphon]

My dragons are scary, because they almost always have class levels. Typically in classes like Cleric or Wizard.

[TuggyNE]

But the halfling bard who plays a lute for the duration of the fight, all rosy cheeked and starry eyed and who can barely hold their weapon straight... can make grizzled veterans and trained assassins fall to their knees and weep in terror.

Sometimes. The bard you describe can't be more than first level, otherwise their +1 or better BAB and proficiency would put the lie to your "barely hold their weapon straight" description, so their modifier is highly unlikely to be more than about +4, and may be lower than that. Against a trained assassin (Rogue 5/Assassin 1 or better) with let's say 12 Wis, that's a DC of 1d20+7, which is only about a one in three chance.

38% chance instead of 20% chance (with a -1 modifier) is certainly no small difference, but neither is it nearly as dramatically inappropriate as you're making it out to be, especially if you consider that essentially all of that +4 modifier comes from careful training. Without that, it's only +0 (+4 Cha, -4 size), or a 23% chance. As I like to say, the rules are bad, but they're not that bad. (Except when they are.)

[Vogonjeltz]

Don't forget Dragons are supposed to be genius level tactitians with many many years of experience on their side. Whether a DM can play them up as such is a different story. But given all the flat rules abilities given so far and the dragons thoughts. Honestly if it weren't for the gentlemands agreement almost any dragon who could would have disjunction set and ready should they start seeing a lot of gear causing them problems. They'd also target the biggest threat, and having lived in this world this long they know that the guy chanting in the robes, is the biggest issue. Aside from all of that, a dragon by its very nature isn't just going to up and fight adventurers if it can intimidate them, or just talk them into leaving. During all conversation any preparation that can be made will be.

White Dragons are actually quite stupid up until they reach adulthood, at which time they are finally about as smart as your average human.

In general dragons are no smarter than a smart fighter until adulthood, and even then some are just above average.

That being said, I expect any spell that is known as a dragon killer would likely be high on dragon kinds radar. They can always just look human, so there's plenty of time for them to investigate threats in their region.

[Sir Chuckles]

White Dragons are actually quite stupid up until they reach adulthood, at which time they are finally about as smart as your average human.

In general dragons are no smarter than a smart fighter until adulthood, and even then some are just above average.

That being said, I expect any spell that is known as a dragon killer would likely be high on dragon kinds radar. They can always just look human, so there's plenty of time for them to investigate threats in their region.

I don't see where you're getting this. White Dragons are the lowest Int, reaching 10 at Adulthood. The second lowest is the Black, which reaches 10 at Young. At Adult, the average Intelligence of True Dragons, at least the standard color/metallic ones, is 16. That's not "just above average".

[ArqArturo]

See that pile of diamonds over there? Those are compressed remains of the carbon leftovers of the last adventuring party to wander in. Think your special and have some crazy trick? Please, we figured those our thousands of years ago while you monkeys learned to stack rocks into walls. Give it up. Shivering touch? Pfft, if we choose not to have a selective antimagic field up with all the contingencies we can stack its because were feeling generous. It's the cutest thing that you think these silly tricks are new and not planned for. Please, we were here for thousands of years before you, will be for thousands of years after you, and your cleverness is something we devised a counter for long ago. If you want to see old age I'm not your huckleberry.

But no, seriously, a dragon can pull off all the same high op shenanigans. Don't be fooled they pack everything from a smart wizard to an ubercharger and everything in between. If you laugh at them you've never faced an appropriately counter-op'd dragon.

"Foolish creature of the flesh. I am ancient. I am forever. I have seen Empires rise and fall. I have seen entire species wither to cinders, some thanks to my wrath. I have seen the birth of legends and the fall of your greatest 'heroes'. You are no more a nuisance to me than mice. You are so insignificant, and I am so exquisitely eternal that I am the closest thing you will have to a God..."

[ryu]

"Foolish creature of the flesh. I am ancient. I am forever. I have seen Empires rise and fall. I have seen entire species wither to cinders, some thanks to my wrath. I have seen the birth of legends and the fall of your greatest 'heroes'. You are no more a nuisance to me than mice. You are so insignificant, and I am so exquisitely eternal that I am the closest thing you will have to a God..."

And the wise-ass adventurer points out that the actual deities are real and that he's had conversations with one or two of them directly in his time.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the best way to fight a dragon is...enlist the help of another dragon.

What's that? A red dragon is running around making a nuisance of himself, eating virgins and whatnot?

It's cool. Brave Sir Paladin just looks up the nearest silver or gold dragon. Gold and Silver dragons hate red dragons and hate evil on general principle. If Brave Sir Paladin approaches properly, it's easy enough to get an ally. Then it's a dragon with the support of the adventuring party vs. a dragon without the support of a party, and the dragon without help is going down.

And sometimes, the chromatic dragon is actually harassing the metallic dragon, so the good dragon will ask the PCs for help and flip it the other way around.

If Brave Sir Paladin has been reading Dragonlance lately, he'll know he should be going up there with a sufficiently long lance for doing battle from dragonback (every time the dragons close to melee in the air, that's another smite evil going off with damage doubled cause it's a mounted lance attack, and spirited charge makes it even more fun, add divine might and divine sacrifice to really get that damage going.) (and his allies should be using fly spells so as to stay out of range of frightful presence, but still get close enough to get their licks in). In general, though, only Brave Sir Paladin is qualified to go into melee, as he's got that famous fear immunity. Any other melee dude up there is going to need his brown pants, cause none of 'em have will saves. That's why metallic dragons like paladins. And why Bahamut takes human Paladins to work with his metallic children. And why there's classes like Platinum Knight and Vassal of Bahamut.

The world makes sense, when you think about it.

And the metallic dragons are often prepared for this sort of thing! They keep a sufficiently long holy lawful dragon bane lance for their paladin riders to use for just such an occasion...cause they've been around for centuries too!

[DeltaEmil]

Frightful presence will only cause the shaken condition to any wannabe-dragon slayer who isn't some drunk 4 HD commoner, and a normal party will normally have a cleric or bard around capable of casting remove fear in that one rare case where the dragon has buffed its frightful presence ability with feats and spells and obscure draconic class featurees to make it cause the frightened or panicked condition.
Should the dragon have it, the fear spell will be better than its frightful presence ability.

[Angelalex242]

Errr...I've got the Draconomicon here in front of me, and I see a great wyrm red's frightful presence as DC 38. That's going to overwhelm anything less then fear immunity.

Even a young adult Red is still DC 21 on the fear save, for a CR 13 dragon.

A 13th level fighter, barbarian, ranger has a will save of...what, +6? +7?

[Svata]

7, 10, and 9, respectively, including a +3 item, the barbarian's rage, and a ranger who wants fourth level spells.

[Cloud]

I believe DeltaEmil meant that if the target has 4 or less HD they're panicked instead of shaken. Of course with proper application of fear escalation it's never just shaken (though anyone that fights a dragon without immunity to fear deserves the death they get).

On the intimidate note...people seem to forget some things can just be scary, and that's just NPCs reacting to threats realistically, not a skill check. The guard is scared of the orc barbarian because he can twist his head off casually. Intimidate is being scared of the 3 ft bard whispering threats in your ear.

Anyway, Dragons are scary for all the reasons that have been said, and particularly abusing hit and run tactics and metabreath feats against low optimiaation parties is just mean.

[Dr. Cliché]

In universe, I think their intelligence would be very intimidating. A dragon has an intellgence score of around 40.

Sorry, but where are you getting 40 from?

If I'm not mistaken, A Great Wyrm Red Dragon is Int 26 - and even Gold and Shadow Dragons 'only' reach 32.

[Chronos]

Of course, that's only an average, so the most intelligent of gold great wyrms could reach 40. Then again, that also means that the least intelligent of gold great wyrms is only a 25. And a mortal human with no magic whatsoever can reach 26 (assuming we're playing standard D&D where someone like Einstein is 20th level, not some weird unrealistic E6-without-epic-feats thing).

[Shining Wrath]

Because Dragons have one thing that spell casters hate.

Spell resistance.

You have to roll D20 + CL and beat ...

For a puny CR 10 White Dragon (Adult), SR=18. So your level 10 wizard has to roll at least an 8 to affect the dragon BEFORE the normal saves. That's a 35% chance of failure. Let's say your wizard is attacking the Reflex save and has got INT=24 by level 10, and is attacking with a level 5 spell. The save DC = 10+7+5 = 22. The puny CR10 AWD has a reflex of 11, so saves with an 11; 50% chance.

So your wizard, attacking the weakest save, has a 65% chance of beating SR, then a 50% chance of beating the reflex save. Basically 1 chance in 3.

The other 2 chances out of 3 the dragon recognizes your wizard as the most dangerous foe, and proceeds to unleash a full attack routine on you. 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, 1 tail slap at +18 against your wizardly AC of ... 20? 24? Let's give you the 24, which is pretty good for a level 10 wizard. The dragon is still hitting you on a 6. Of those 6 attacks, 75% of them hit. On average, you just took about 21 points of damage.

Want to try a second round? Oh, too bad, you just blew your one level 5 spell and it failed. The dragon's chance of saving just went up a little. Miss this one and you are a dietary supplement.

That's a CR 10 white dragon. Suppose it's a Great Wyrm red. Of course you are level 20 now and god-like in your wizardly power; but the dragon has SR=32. You have a 60% chance of losing your spell to SR. The dragon's weakest save remains Reflex at 22, so if you attack that with a level 9 spell and have INT=30, it needs a 12 and saves 45% of the time. You will succeed with your level 9 spell about (.4*.55=.22) one time in 5.

Let's not discuss a full attack routine from a great wyrm against your wizard. BAB=40; if he can reach you, you just died. Besides which, he casts as a 19th level sorcerer.

I'm sure people are going to come in and start citing all the tricks a wizard can play to overcome SR and boost CL. Point granted.

Against that, I say the dragon has prepared the terrain to its considerable advantage. The adult white only has INT=10, WIS=11; but that great wyrm red has INT=26, WIS=27. He's nearly as smart as you are and he's been preparing for CENTURIES. And he's got treasure up the wazoo, and he's willing to use it.

[Dr. Cliché]

The other 2 chances out of 3 the dragon recognizes your wizard as the most dangerous foe, and proceeds to unleash a full attack routine on you. 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, 1 tail slap at +18 against your wizardly AC of ... 20? 24? Let's give you the 24, which is pretty good for a level 10 wizard. The dragon is still hitting you on a 6. Of those 6 attacks, 75% of them hit. On average, you just took about 21 points of damage.

To be fair, I imagine most wizards will be relying on more than just AC to protect them. :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

To be fair, I imagine most wizards will be relying on more than just AC to protect them. :smallwink:

At level 10, I don't think your typical wizard is at the "nyah nyah you can't touch me" level of defensive buffs yet. He's still relying on Mage Armor or bracers + ring of protection + amulet of natural armor.

Mirror Image would be great unless the White blasted with its breath weapon first, in which case most of your images just poofed.

[Dr. Cliché]

Mirror Image would be great unless the White blasted with its breath weapon first, in which case most of your images just poofed.

I thought AoE spells/effects didn't destroy images?

[ArqArturo]

And the wise-ass adventurer points out that the actual deities are real and that he's had conversations with one or two of them directly in his time.

And the dragon points out at the nice rack of skulls, all made of wise-ass adventurers, and kindly asks him/her to roll a Will save versus its Frightful Presence :smallcool:.


To be fair, I imagine most wizards will be relying on more than just AC to protect them. :smallwink:

The common route is:

Mirror Image
Displacement
Blink

[Shining Wrath]

And the dragon points out at the nice rack of skulls, all made of wise-ass adventurers, and kindly asks him/her to roll a Will save versus its Frightful Presence :smallcool:.



The common route is:

Mirror Image
Displacement
Blink

True.

And I was wrong about the breath weapon destroying Mirror Images; they react normally to area effect spells, which I'll take as RAI applying to breath weapons.

However, dragons do have 60' Blindsense, so if you're close enough to Shivering Touch, that takes care of Mirror Image and Displacement, and reduces the miss chance from Blink to 20%. Plus the text says dragons favor Blind Fighting as a feat choice so they get to re-roll that 20%.

[Coidzor]

And the dragon points out at the nice rack of skulls, all made of wise-ass adventurers, and kindly asks him/her to roll a Will save versus its Frightful Presence :smallcool:.

Meanwhile the party's main casters have both used Epic Spellcasting to eliminate the Dragon while it was distracted by the Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime Chord who easily makes the save.


Sorry, but where are you getting 40 from?

If I'm not mistaken, A Great Wyrm Red Dragon is Int 26 - and even Gold and Shadow Dragons 'only' reach 32.

Great Wyrm Red is 27 on d20srd.org, Great Wyrm SIlver is 30, Great Wyrm Gold is 32. +6 item. +5 Tome or +5 Wishing = +11 = 43 for Great Wyrm Gold that spent the wealth on such things.

So, to be fair you'd need an 18 in Int and a +9 between racial and other bonuses to go along with the +6 item, +5 Tome/wishing, +5 leveling to equal that at level 20.

[Starbuck_II]

True.

And I was wrong about the breath weapon destroying Mirror Images; they react normally to area effect spells, which I'll take as RAI applying to breath weapons.

However, dragons do have 60' Blindsense, so if you're close enough to Shivering Touch, that takes care of Mirror Image and Displacement, and reduces the miss chance from Blink to 20%. Plus the text says dragons favor Blind Fighting as a feat choice so they get to re-roll that 20%.

They still have the miss chance with Blindsense.
You are thinking of Blindsight. Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. Not Blindsense.
"Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. "

So if the Dragon closes its eyes the spell's effect goes from Mirror Image to Displacement (you have now 50% miss instead of what % Mirror Image counts as).

Why did you think Blindsense reduced Miss chance?

[DMVerdandi]

The potential to make bad threats worse.
For a lazy DM, they might just plop down a big dragon and let them do whatever. Someone who really wanted dragons to Be SCARY though? No need for home-brew. They can simply give them as many character levels as necessary and throw them at the party like a cruise missile.

Yes, dragons naturally have sorcerer casting, but some can find that wanting, with the slow spell progression they have, HOWEVER, since they can acquire character classes, that makes them privy to a lot of awesome arcane prestige classes, which they SHOULD be taking.

It is actually IMO the psion/erudite that they are best suited for. My reasoning is the astronomical INT scores that some of them can obtain. The sheer amount of PP they can amass is ridiculous. STP Erudite on a dragon would be bananas, especially with Gem Dragons, which already have psionic powers. My goodness, that is a fright.

Secondarily is their physical stats. They have awesome ones. Pairing them up with battlefield control spells creates a fast moving, big, terribly frightening creature.
Then there are the breath weapons, which deserve strongly to be modified, just like the rest of him from things in the Draconomicon. Breath spells kick butt, as do the breath weapon feats, so they should be taken just for the awesomeness.

Really wanna ramp up the insanity?
Give the dragon Gestalt levels. Dragonfire adept on one half. Oh, lawdy.
Dragons just have an excellent chassis for loading them up with crazy stuff.

Getting into epic level dragons IMO is unnecessary. Just Give them 20+ class levels and they are far more threatening.

About the only problem is feats. They don't get enough.

[Kaeso]

Sorry, but where are you getting 40 from?

If I'm not mistaken, A Great Wyrm Red Dragon is Int 26 - and even Gold and Shadow Dragons 'only' reach 32.

Good question. The answer is that I have no idea :smalleek:. I just posted without actually looking it up and assumed it was 40. Still, their intelligence is still downright frightening. An intelligence score of 32 is still almost twice that of the most intelligent humans to have ever lived, who have a score of 18, or 19 at best. We cannot even begin to imagine how intelligent they are. That must work in their favor in combat as well, since to them we must be extremely predictable. For quite a few dragon races, even their wyrmlings are as intelligent as a clever human. That means that even the youngest of dragons are on par with mediocre-to-good generals in terms of strategic ability. At best the human general will have a slight edge over the practically newborn dragon due to experience.

You're right that I was mistaken though. It was silly and I should've looked it up before I posted.

[Anlashok]

Sorry, but where are you getting 40 from?

If I'm not mistaken, A Great Wyrm Red Dragon is Int 26 - and even Gold and Shadow Dragons 'only' reach 32.

32 point buy gold dragon with 18 in his primary stat gets 40.

[Coidzor]

At best the human general will have a slight edge over the practically newborn dragon due to experience.

Yes, training and experience are totally irrelevant when you have people who have similar natural reasoning abilities. :smalltongue:


32 point buy gold dragon with 18 in his primary stat gets 40.

Congratulations, you just bumped a CR 27 creature to CR 28. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

I mean, Dragons do have magic. They can get Wishes for +5 inherent to all stats fairly easily. They also have a LOT of wealth so magic items aren't out of the question, nor are spells. Their stats can be significantly higher than the book stats when you buff, feat and equip them.

[Shining Wrath]

They still have the miss chance with Blindsense.
You are thinking of Blindsight. Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. Not Blindsense.
"Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. "

So if the Dragon closes its eyes the spell's effect goes from Mirror Image to Displacement (you have now 50% miss instead of what % Mirror Image counts as).

Why did you think Blindsense reduced Miss chance?
Because SRD says this:
Blindsense (Ex)

Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.

I took "pinpoint" as "accurately know where they are" - for example, know which Mirror Image is real, and also ignore the effects of displacement. What I should have done is looked at the definition of Blindsense:


Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

So displacement still grants the 50% miss chance. I would argue, though, that Mirror Image stops working because of the underlined & bolded text. If "locate" means "know which square you are in", and only one image / mage occupies a square, then blindsense overcomes Mirror Image.

EDIT:

We've gotten into the weeds away from my original point, which remains this: a 10th level wizard beats a CL 3 sorcerer (Juvenile Red Dragon) trivially. Add spell resistance and it becomes more interesting but still no contest. Add in the dragon's breath weapon and physical combat and you've now got a more interesting situation. Add in a red dragon smart enough to have cold resistance equipment on and now it's more interesting still. Add in a prepared battleground to the dragon's liking (dragon hides beneath magma, then flies, as assorted traps wear down the party) and you've got yourself a battle.

At high levels it's a 20th level wizard against a 19th level sorcerer - with spell resistance - and a ring of True Seeing - and minions - and, oh yeah, the ability to tear the wizard into confetti in a single round.

[Vaz]

Sorry, but where are you getting 40 from?

If I'm not mistaken, A Great Wyrm Red Dragon is Int 26 - and even Gold and Shadow Dragons 'only' reach 32.

Point buy - transforms from 26 to 32. +6 Item, +5 Tome = 43 without shenanigans, or any of the following which are more than likely available to such a creature; Epic Level items, possible artifacts and the fact that they've either dominated or diplomanced an Artificer to craft them items with different types of bonuses, and they're way up there.

Because they have access to Epic feats at Old Age, or possibly younger if they have enough HD. If they've not got access to Permanent Emanation Selective Spell Antimagic Field, then they can tae Shape Soulmeld (Spellward Shirt) and Open Heart Chakra (CR13ish for a Core True Dragons).

@Shining Wrath, although I don't have a quote for it, Pinpointing refers to which square the target is in.

[A Tad Insane]

The real reason dragons are scary is because kobolds serve them. And not just some wimpy 1st level sorcerers, no, such creatures are only barely worthy of mining the dragon's gold. I'm talking about epic level dragon wrought kobolds, I'm talking literally hundreds of little tuckers, I am talking a room with seven traps every square! If a dragon doesn't have a force like that when they reach adulthood, they are a failure of a dragon and deserve to be made into armor

[Dr. Cliché]

32 point buy gold dragon with 18 in his primary stat gets 40.


Point buy - transforms from 26 to 32. +6 Item, +5 Tome = 43 without shenanigans, or any of the following which are more than likely available to such a creature; Epic Level items, possible artifacts and the fact that they've either dominated or diplomanced an Artificer to craft them items with different types of bonuses, and they're way up there.

But surely those are outliers - the most intelligent dragons with additional (non-racial) modifiers - hardly the standard for dragons?

It's surely no different than my pointing to a White Dragon that put a '3' in it's intelligence score, or simply a Dragon that got itself feebleminded? Such creatures can certainly exist, but they shouldn't be used as the standard for their kind.

[Vaz]

As much as PC's are the outliers of their relevant races. If you're facing Great Wyrm Great Dragons, while they are not only immensely powerful on their own chassis, they achieved their status as being top of everything precisely by being the most powerful there.

Your BBEG is typically backed up by several class levels and nonestandard feats, perhaps a template. Why a BBEG dragon would be anything different is a wonder, especially as each one 'awakening' is essentially an Extinction Level event in the offing.

Short of PC level optimizing, mundane attacks have no effect; those Warrior 1's with Crossbows aren't too effective when even before including its typical sorcerer shenanigans.

Unless playing a game where Dragons are as common as humans, elves, etc, or extremely low level, Darwinism and survival of the fittest should play a major role in promoting them to the top of the level.

Similarly as to how a Wizard is capable of recognizing that a Dragon's typing determines its breath weapon, it should develop some means of countering those defenses prepared. Eg Fire resistance versus Red Dragon seems to make sense until Energy Admixture Breath Weapon hits you with an Acid and Electricity Breath while uttercold assault with Necromantic Minions makes it hard for you to even get to it.

Other tricks like Snowsight and Blizzard (what Wizard prepares Snowsight going into a Blue Dragons lair hidden under the desert sands?) are all fair game.

[chickenkiller]

the dm is what makes dragons so scary. dragons are an excellent canvas to paint an infinite and diverse canvas of villians from all very powerful. im currently dming a 3.5 campaign where a great wyrm red dragon is the big bad guy and hes devious. Think the movie saw he uses an enthralled army of orcs and giant spiders to lure, funnel and trap partys of adventurers into his fully prepared keep of death. he then communicates though the vent system (which also lets him pour fire into the castle via said vents incase he over hears the party ploting) from the roof providing varying harrowing tasks as in his long life he is quite bored and simply put you lesser beings are here for his entertainment as the dispose pawns you are. also i can adapt him you see escaping his lair is mearly the beginning as by doing so you have made a life long enemy (and since i plan on making this go to epic) you belive youve over come him well illithids find his dying form and decide to make them selves a brain snatcher dragon but his will is so strong he takes over the collective with new powers a new army and bent on revenge. they are master tacticians paranoid as anything and spell casters to boot if played as that and not a big dumb lizard dragons are the partys worst nightmare

[Vaz]

Whoa. Grammar, please. Also, the movie "Saw" was completely different between you and I.

[chickenkiller]

sorry about the grammar, i will edit that later i was kind of rushing. And i meant the nature of the tasks the party had to perform in reference to the movie saw (many involving self mutilation and in the end fighting each other to the death). sorry again about the sloppiness of my last post.

[Killer Angel]

Dragons are scary because they have a very solid chassis, with impressive physical abilities, good defenses, and magic (spells, abilities and obviously also their treasure).
A dragon can and should be played intelligently, as the top-tier predator it is. A dragon got centuries of experience at the top of the chain food, and also the intelligence to avoid the mistake of underestimating adventurers.
As a last point, keep in mind that the dragon should be played at the same level of optimization of the group...