does bone knight enhance or hurt a paladin ?

[CyberThread]

Does a paladin get much out of a bone knight? Or is it asking for trouble

[Pluto!]

Losing BA, CL and paladin levels for Mystic Fire Knight seems bad. Don't get me wrong - Bone Knight has some good defenses, but Paladins are already pretty sturdy, so trading the Pally's already limited ability to threaten enemies for immunities to saves that the Paladin is already probably going to pass just smacks of Monk-style Turtle Syndrome.

[CyberThread]

Mystic...fire?

[T.G. Oskar]

Yeah, I didn't got the reference between Mystic Fire Knight and Bone Knight, but...

Bone Knight loses some BAB (it's a medium BAB class), is a 9/10 spellcasting class, and alters some of your Paladin traits (you rebuke instead of turn undead, your Lay on Hands can heal both living and undead creatures). You lose others, though, specifically your mount and your ability to smite (which can be a blessing and a boon).

At most, you're replacing one focus (being an enemy of Evil) for another (commander of undead + decent fighter). Since you keep most of your immunities and get many others (you slowly get all undead immunities), you'll be resilient to virtually everything. The "turtling" statement refers that you get a lot of defensive qualities in exchange for what's essentially all of your offensive potential; note that, unlike a Monk, you're supposed to be surrounded by undead followers which you support, which is the difference in focus I mentioned). You get two pools (just like everyone else) to control undead, but both of them are essentially halved: you can either use your rebuking pool to control undead (which, because of your -3 to effective Cleric level, means you don't control a huge number and have difficulties controlling stronger undead), or you can use your class-based pool of controlled undead, which you eventually supplement with campaign-specific undead (the Karrnathi versions of skeletons and zombies, which IIRC aren't templates), but still limits you to about half the control pool of your typical spellcaster. Your offensive potential lies almost solely on whatever you bring to the table in terms of feats, plus any Bonecraft Weapon you make and enchant. Since you still depend on Wisdom, your spellcasting will still be somewhat weak, but you get more spells. You also aren't bound by the Code, though you can still be LG and control all those undead creatures.

Thus, how good Bone Knight is depends on how much you focus on one thing over another. If you focus on, say, the control of undead creatures, your fighting skills will suffer but your armies won't be as good as a dedicated Necromancer (who probably spent its time getting Corpsecrafter and the other skills). Alternatively, if you focus on your fighting skills, you'll end up with a bunch of weak undead, a lot of immunities and lessened fighting skill (no smite means no loads of damage). You still get a mount for your efforts, so if you were already planning for an Ubercharger, you can make your mount slightly more resilient (d12 HD, DR X/slashing, undead immunities). Since Karrnath, by definition, is pretty human-centric, you *could* make a good Bone Knight that combines Mounted Combat, Corpsecrafter and one or two Divine feats, but it'll look mostly the same (3 feats for Spirited Charge, 2 feats for Profane Aura and 2-3 feats for the Corpsecrafter line). Anything that disables Mounted Combat or undead will disable you, and while you'll be just as good as most Uberchargers, you won't be as great as dedicated necromancers with undead armies. You won't be Turtling as much as a Monk would, though it's a good thing to think about (think of strategies that Monks need to bring to the table: as an Ubercharger, you're right around the damage potential they can bring but without a way to deal that damage many times); furthermore, you've got spells, which is something that Monks lack (though, even with the additions, you're not really bringing a lot of power to the table.

In short: you don't get better by shifting your Paladin to a Bone Knight; you just expand your options into a whole new ballgame, but without the nifty tools the dedicated players bring to the table.

[Darkweave31]

I don't have much to contribute other than bone knight makes the paladin metal.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, I didn't got the reference between Mystic Fire Knight and Bone Knight, but...

It's part of the "A-Game Paladin" strategy of trading away all your Paladin class features for any ACF you can find. It's kind of pointless if you're willing to write something other than "Paladin 20" on your character sheet, so it isn't terribly relevant for someone already considering multiclassing.

[Yorrin]

Frankly, Bone Knight may have been designed for Paladins, but it works a lot better on Clerics.

[T.G. Oskar]

It's part of the "A-Game Paladin" strategy of trading away all your Paladin class features for any ACF you can find. It's kind of pointless if you're willing to write something other than "Paladin 20" on your character sheet, so it isn't terribly relevant for someone already considering multiclassing.

I know that Mystic Fire Knight is one of the replacements you make with the A-Game Paladin, but it has no relevance to this discussion, as Bone Knight is from Eberron while Mystic Fire Knight is from the Forgotten Realms (also, by playing on an Eberron campaign, you pretty much CAN'T play an A-Game Paladin, since its key components require worshipping Faerun deities); that's why I echoed the OP's remark. Furthermore, it's the way Pluto refers to it (replacing BAB, CL and Paladin abilities for Mystic Fire Knight) what it didn't made sense, which it sorta made afterwards (probably he was intending to write "Bone Knight" instead of "Mystic Fire Knight").

[Pluto!]

Fair point. How about this -

Opening sentence, mark 2:

"Losing BA, CL and paladin levels [for Mystic Fire Knight] seems bad."

Basically, I see Bone Knight hindering all the ways that a paladin can pose a semi-plausible offense, without really having a payoff that outweighs the costs.

This all gets muddled if the Paladin's splashing another spellcasting class or PrC to advance with Bone Knight, but for a comparison between bare bones Paladin X/Bone Knight Y versus Paladin 20, the vanilla Paladin sounds like it has better tools to do the job that most paladin builds aim for.

[The Grue]

In fairness, I don't think there are many ways to make a Paladin objectively worse aside from multiclassing into Monk or something.

[Flickerdart]

Bone Knight is from Eberron while Mystic Fire Knight is from the Forgotten Realms
Eberron has everything from every setting somewhere in it.

[toapat]

In fairness, I don't think there are many ways to make a Paladin objectively worse aside from multiclassing into Monk or something.

Hey, there are actual reasons for Ascetic Knight. (Serenity + Monk 1 = Good)

No, its like trying to combine Rogue and Paladin or Bard and Paladin (Lol @ Devoted Performer).

[Flickerdart]

Hey, there are actual reasons for Aesthetic Knight. (Serenity + Monk 1 = Good)
Aesthetic = pertaining to beauty.
Ascetic = practitioner of (usually religious) self-discipline and self-denial.

[toapat]

Aesthetic = pertaining to beauty.
Ascetic = practitioner of (usually religious) self-discipline and self-denial.

derp. Well, at least THAT feat* has some value, expecially with the Divine Fist variant. Devoted Inquisitor and Devoted Performer are crap. *(read: TONS OF VALUE)

the amusing thing is, you dont actually need any levels in monk to take the Ascetic feats

[squiggit]

Aesthetic = pertaining to beauty.
Ascetic = practitioner of (usually religious) self-discipline and self-denial.

Aesthetic knight. Requires Elven race, rank 6 diplomacy and special: must have thick, luscious locks of hair.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It really depends on what you want your paladin to do. For example, if you're going for a Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin 19 with the Divine Counterspell ACF for Paladin and Divine Defiance powered by your Cleric turning, then you don't really want to get Bone Knight as it will just add to your Cleric level for turn/rebuke instead of increasing your Divine Counterspell effective level.

On the other hand, a Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4/ Divine Crusader 1/ Bone Knight 6/ Contemplative 1/ (2/4 casting PrCs) 4, using the Wrath domain for Divine Crusader and expanding its spell list via additional domains, makes an extremely strong character. However, that's more due to adding Divine Crusader casting than using Paladin with Bone Knight.

It just depends on what you want your paladin to do. If taking Bone Knight makes him more useful and doesn't make him worse at his chosen area of expertise, then it it's a good choice.

[toapat]

Aesthetic knight. Requires Elven race, rank 6 diplomacy and special: must have thick, luscious locks of hair.

you forgot Talya's Vow of Nudity

now we need to make homebrew for it

[T.G. Oskar]

you forgot Talya's Vow of Nudity

now we need to make homebrew for it

Pathfinder got ahead on that one. Oath against Grotesquery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-grotesquery).

Bland as the Nine Hells, but the oath at least is a start.

On topic: the way the class is build is pretty much fixed, so attempting constructs like adding Divine Crusader to the list doesn't really cut it (you can do the same with any other class that advances Divine spellcasting and both Divine Crusader/Contemplative). Maybe Divine Crusader 1 of the Sovereign Host/Sovereign Speaker 9 (how does 10 domains and extra spell slots), but that'd be its own build (then again: a spell list comprised of 10 domains and 9th level spellcasting covers a LOT of corners). Would maybe even redeem those classes that have insane, lower than 1/2 spellcasting progression, since Sovereign Speaker only takes up two slots away, meaning all you need to complete the progression is 2 additional spell levels. It's also incompatible with Bone Knight, so...

Most of what Bone Knight offers is mostly meant to make something akin to a LG Blackguard sans Smite but with better undead-controlling capabilities, so there's few niches where it'll work (nearly unkillable character, undead leader, Ubercharger with better mount). This goes akin with Biffoniacus' line of thought: if it fits your idea of a Paladin and it works, then go for it. There'll be a way to make a better version of what you want (I rarely do self-promotion, but a Paladin 10/Bone Knight doesn't hold a candle to Mortimus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?249542-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XXXV&p=13633061&viewfull=1#post13633061) despite the immunities), but it's not like Bone Knight can't be worked; it's just harder to work with a character whose two main tricks are immunities in bulk and a certain degree of undead control. I think what kills its utility is its inability to keep the Smite, since it could lead to some other nifty tricks.

As for Mystic Fire Knight: it's not the end-all-be-all substitution level for Paladins, since it drops a good resource to add another (replacing Turn Undead for better spellcasting), and Divine Feats could easily work for this build and add some staying power. The Paladin STILL has access to Sword of the Arcane Order to an extent, which is the bread and butter of the A-Game Paladin's spellcasting potential, though it'll lack some power due to lower CL (A-Game Paladin gets 2 CL less than full, note). Note that, since the Bone Knight is no longer limited by its Code, you can use Animate Dead and get three pools worth of Undead, which further reinforces its idea of Undead Leadership, plus it gets Desecrate as a spell so you can create insanely strong Undead from it. Then again...

I don't see where Eberron and Faerun overlap, unless you consider DDO canon. Equating Lolth as a Lord of Dust (by using the adaptation from Exemplars of Evil and Calais' fall in Eberron) and using that to justify Mystra's, Azuth's, or even the existence of the Mystic Fire Knight is too much of a longshot to make it work. Even then, there'd be a bit of a conflict: the obviously fitting way to introduce Mystic Fire Knight and Sword of the Arcane Order would be to tie them to Aureon (and maybe even make Aureon cognate to Azuth), but Spellfire would be kindred to the Silver Flame (similar color, somewhat similar properties, the Silver Flame is of divine origin while Spellfire is of arcane origin but controlled by a divine source), so that'd also be hard to combine so that it made sense. Again: too much of a longshot to have both traits apply to Eberron. Maybe between Greyhawk and Faerun, since there's a portal between the two in one of the Drow's cities (it's either in the Underdark supplement or in Drow of the Underdark, not sure which). I wouldn't even use Spelljammer to justify it, since Eberron is meant to be as far away from the other Material Planes and its own system; in fact, if pulling that, then you'd have to justify access to Krynn when the Dark Queen stole it from the other Gods, since Eberron is pretty much in the same situation regarding how difficult it'd be to find its Crystal Sphere. All I say is that it's a bit harder to justify Faerun stuff in Eberron and make it blend.

[Seffbasilisk]

If your paladin has regeneration, Bone Knight is the way to go. If he's a Paladin of St Cuthbert, I think he has the option to acquire a 'Smite Chaos' version.

[Zalphon]

Paladin 3/Cleric 1/Bone Knight 10/Contemplative 6

BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Divine Caster Level: 17

Pick up Serenity and stack Wisdom.