What would a monster find attractive?

[Hobbes1266]

It is fairly easy to think of what the typical playable races find attractive because it is generally very similar to what we the players would find attractive but what would a monster find attractive? I am specifically interested in pathfinder goblins.

[Zale]

I'd look at the physical traits of goblins and pick a few, then make the descriptions of why goblins find them appealing. Maybe the beautiful goblin maiden has a wide, wicked smile filled with teeth that shone out like jagged knives gleaming in the night.

Also: Humans. Everything wants to bang humans.

[Loxagn]

Well of course everything wants to breed with humans. It's natural to want the best for your offspring, and you can't do much better for a template's base than +1 skill point/level and a bonus feat.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that everyone loves a partner who's flexible. :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

Well, one thing to do would be to consider what gobbos look like when they're in peak health and nutrition. They're different from most of the humanoids and humans, but there are certain principles that could probably be extended to their aesthetics, at least as far as the "base" "genetic"/"healthy-looking" stuff before you start to take into account cultural influences both internal and external.

Offhand, that brings to mind sharp, strong, healthy, and well-formed teeth(whatever well-formed means for a goblin, but probably means that the teeth don't get in their way); healthy skin(not too dry, not too oily, lustrous but not super shiny or dull); sharp, clear eyes rather than rheumy ones; strong limbs that are straight where they're supposed to be and crooked where they're supposed to be rather than vice versa...

Some of them may go in for ritual scarification or other body modifications for aesthetic purposes or to improve their attractiveness to potential mates. I seem to recall there being human practices of body modification that arose to decrease the likelihood that rival societies/tribes would take women when raiding, so those may also be more prevalent amongst goblins that come into conflict with other goblins regularly.

[Dienekes]

Another aspect would be signs of wealth. Goblins in Pathfinder are, if I remember, generally dirty scavengers, who live off whatever grub they can get their hands on. So a goblin with jewelry would be probably seen in a more elegant manner. As well plumpness. Probably not useless obesity, but a nice well fed appearance could be tied to beauty.

[Socksy]

My first thought was "Usually other monsters of the opposite gender" when I read the title, but that's probably not what you're looking for...

How about valuing wiry, short builds, speed over strength, etc?

[Slipperychicken]

Corporeal creatures. Preferably living.

Being vaguely human-shaped is a plus.

Big tusks. This is not negotiable. Beaks, teeth, and claws can work too. Point is, I want a real monster, not some 2 inch hatchling tusk. Sheesh.

Able to replicate a spell effect at least 3 times per day (Ex, Su, Sp, not picky, but it has to be a spell effect). Not cantrips, but 1st level or higher.

A love for goblin dogs. And kobolds.

Blindsense at least 60ft, or a similar effect like Lifesense or Tremorsense. If you can't detect me via echolocation from across a dungeon room, forget about it.

Flight is a plus.

Immunity to Mind-Affecting will help.

Above-average treasure hoard for your CR. Not a gold digger, but don't want to no broke monster either.

Under-CR'd by at least 2. I want to be a TPK, not be a speedbump.

Irrational hatred for humanoids is a plus. I HATE humans. So much.

Charisma scores 11 or lower need not apply.

[Sith_Happens]

[Slipperychicken's MonsterMatch profile]

Thread's over guys, you can all go home.

[Knaight]

It is fairly easy to think of what the typical playable races find attractive because it is generally very similar to what we the players would find attractive but what would a monster find attractive? I am specifically interested in pathfinder goblins.

Generally what is found attractive is fairly rare traits within a species (e.g. extremely close facial symmetry), along with things that are associated with more powerful classes - for instance, tanning is currently fashionable within some cultures precisely because the aristocracy has time to do that and it's a bit of a symbol of wealth.

It's also worth noting that there is major cultural variance here - one group of goblins is likely to have a different cultural beauty standard than another group.

[BWR]

Were I a PF goblin, Reta (http://www.worldofazolin.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Reta.jpg)would be my wet dream.

[Spore]

I am specifically interested in pathfinder goblins.

Find biological and evolutionary traits that make a mate attractive. For mammals it's big mammaries, wide hips for childbirth, fit physique, exotic traits (to improve gene pool). Then give them traits that enforce survival. Goblins tend to live shortly because they are so fricking stupid and careless.

I would make an attractive goblin:

1) flame scarred: It shows that this goblin has survived explosions and larger amounts of fire damage. Bonus points for being a fire sorcerer.

2) exotic skin color: Maybe she is brown skinned while all the goblins around have green skin. She is considered exotic and foreign while still being attractive.

3) Big pointy teeth: While monstrous and intimidating, these teeth show superiority in eating everything around. Remember that PF goblins are decendants of devouring demonbeasts.

4) Fit physique, body ready for childbirth: Maybe not too old, maybe some sleek physique (the bonus to Dex and Sneak supports slimer body types).

5) Higher mental capability: Things that aren't widespread and advantageous are attractive. Charismatic and wise goblins tend to control the tribe, improving their social status. Goblins are usually clever but short-sighted and very unpleasant to be around.

Just my 5 cents. =)

[spineyrequiem]

Well, of course, it's likely to vary between sexes. People have already mentioned most of the 'generically attractive' goblin traits, though I think I'd add clear skin, as that usually indicates a healthy diet, which you kinda want, as well as red (or whatever the colour of goblin blood is) cheeks, or wherever else they have thin skin, as that tends to indicate health and possibly also the high metabolism so desired by goblins. Alternatively, they might prefer no signs of blood at all, which would indicate unusually thick skin, a possible advantage for them.

The chances are that, for females, what is going to be attractive (on average; obviously, in an intelligent species, there's going to be a wide range of tastes) is things that appear to indicate youth. This is because, regardless of species, the longer you've been alive, the longer your eggs have been bombarded with radiation, which, obviously, causes various defects. This can be seen in humans; the most attractive female voice is, according to this (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088616) study, a high, breathy tone, typically found in young women. I also theorise that large, firm mammaries are attractive to humans for similar reasons; a large-breasted woman in her forties will look quite different from a large-breasted eighteen-year-old, most of the time at least. Yes, I know that last bit made me sound like some sort of lizard infiltrator. But I have papers to prove I am human. Signed by reputable authorities and everything! I'm not quite sure how this would translate with goblins, but attractive females might well have high, breathy voices by goblin standards, and it's possible they'd have something else which changed with age.

Males, however, cook up new batches of sperm every week or so (can't quite remember, but at any rate it's fairly rapid), and thus don't experience greater incidence of genetic defects as they get older. Therefore, what's attractive is signs of strength and health right now. However, at the same time it's not in the group's interest if one male fathers all the children for three generations, even if he could, for the simple reason that you'll then get inbreeding and that's generally bad. Therefore, signs of male ageing, even when the male in question is still hard enough to knock the teeth down the throat of any challengers, will be unattractive. Note how male-pattern baldness is generally considered unattractive; men with very high testosterone levels (which would normally imply they're fathering lots of children) will often lose their hair at a very young age, which might be an evolutionary mechanism to prevent inbreeding. With goblins, therefore, you'd want a nice, strong man who didn't show signs of testosterone-related aging, whatever those might be. Perhaps something on their skin?

What we've got to take into account, though, is socioeconomic factors. As people have mentioned, having bling on usually means you're doing well. Since goblins don't seem to go for building all that much, most of their wealth would probably be carried on their person, which would save a lot of time working out whether your potential beau can support you in the style to which you have become accustomed (furious, screaming and on fire). As scavengers, they'd likely prefer their mates to have some meat on them, but this could vary between tribes; one that has to move around a huge amount, due to surviving off the sickly members of a migratory herd animal would likely want slimmer, more toned mates than a tribe which primarily lives off berries and other things found immediately around the cave. Of course, it's up to you to decide what exactly their lifestyle is, and thus what body you want.

Also: for monsters which stay in one place, your house could well affect your chances; kobolds would probably prefer someone who can take them on a romantic walk where he shows off all his traps, for instance.

Hope some of that helps!

[Coidzor]

Near as I can tell it takes between 2 and 2.5 months for a male human to produce their gametes. May or may not be much faster for gobbos due to the tweaks to their physiology and reproductive strategies.

[Jay R]

I don't know why dogs like to fetch. I don't know why cats like boxes. And I've lived with them all my life.

How should I expect to understand what goblins like? Invent something and don't try to explain it.

(Years ago I decided that hippogriffs can be addicted to coffee beans, for instance. And my kobolds like shininess. If you try to pay them with dull, tarnished coins, they think you're deliberately insulting them.)

[QuidEst]

A lot of goblin tribes worship Lamashtu, so deformities, scar tissue (particularly on the stomach), wide hips in women, and other such things are likely held in high regard. Judging from goblin traits (I mean the mechanical ones you can take as a goblin character), they've got something verging on genetic silly-putty, so useful deformities might be demonstrated in courtship. The Barghest Heroes are a pretty big deal as well, so any particularly wolf-like features, such as hairiness, prominent canines, a good sense of smell, etc. would be attractive. Sense of smell isn't usually something you'd notice, but maybe goblins describe poetic smells rather than sights. Hmm… small stature is probably equated with sneakiness, so that's something.

In general, you can look at stats for a rough idea of what they've been selecting for. Higher dexterity, lower strength, and lower charisma.

Finally, it's a fantasy setting. The goblins were created from the blood spilled by four barghests freed from Asmodeus by Lamashtu rather than by evolution. So the things they find attractive don't have to make a whole lot of sense.


If you try to pay them with dull, tarnished coins, they think you're deliberately insulting them.)
Ooh, I'm stealing that… the payment is expected, but the shininess of the coins is an indication of respect. (Once again, Prestidigitation saves the day.)

[Aquillion]

It depends on the monster! And on the monster's culture.

In general, any sign of health is going to be a good thing, but the cultural bits might influence this (if you assume Orcish culture is very martial, your "typical" orcs will probably admire scars, eyepatches, etc, provided they look "heroic" by some Orcish definition.)

I think that having them specifically find things humanity finds ugly to be attractive might be a mistake, though (it's something a lot of humorous works go for, but I'm not sure it makes sense.) Obviously they will find some things attractive when humanity doesn't (such green skin!), but that doesn't mean they're going to want someone covered with warts or other signs of sickness / uncleanliness just because humans don't, and it doesn't that they're going to say "oh, what wonderful ugliness!" After all, from their perspective, they like what they like -- treating it like "they like ugliness" is human-centric!

Additionally, some races might be influenced by the standards of other races -- a small town near a massive Elven civilization might come to view Elven traits as attractive, say, as they get influenced by Elven culture.

[Slipperychicken]

It depends on the monster! And on the monster's culture.

In general, any sign of health is going to be a good thing, but the cultural bits might influence this (if you assume Orcish culture is very martial, your "typical" orcs will probably admire scars, eyepatches, etc, provided they look "heroic" by some Orcish definition.)

Well, it might backfire in terms of health too. An elf (male average 5ft tall, 92lb in d&d, or 6'1'' and 155lb in PF) might view most humans as excessively fat, so humanoids trying to woo elves might wind up starving themselves to match the elves' extremely thin physique.

[Wraith]

Think about it; CHA scores represent both physical and mental attraction, among other things, and you can always apply your CHA bonus to a Diplomacy, Haggle or Seduction check regardless of other modifiers. Or the race of your 'target'.

What this suggests is that CHA scores represent an appearance or attitude that ALL races must find attractive, at least on a baseline level, which means that a highly charismatic character must in some way have characteristics that ANY race could find attractive.

So, by that logic, the most beautiful and highly desired character in the game....

Falls halfway between Fine and Colossal+ sizes (approximately 32 feet tall).
Has a skin tone between translucent white and onyx black (Slate Grey, literally; tanned brown realistically).
Has one wing, or at least a stubby pair of vestigial wings.
Pointy teeth, though not much bigger than fangs at the most.
Is Living, but immune to negative energy (because CHA scores apply to sentient undead, too.... :smalleek: )
Approximately four limbs, of an unspecified configuration.
Skin of hide, feathers, scales and 'Other'.

Conclusion: Everyone is hot for Mongrelfolk. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Well, it might backfire in terms of health too. An elf (male average 5ft tall, 92lb in d&d, or 6'1'' and 155lb in PF) might view most humans as excessively fat, so humanoids trying to woo elves might wind up starving themselves to match the elves' extremely thin physique.

Anorexia is probably not the best of topics to delve into though, especially without testing the waters first, and elf vs. human is a bit iffy due to the difference in frame. Being lean & having a larger skeleton(such as being taller, for instance) than an elf =/= being fat, and it would require some very particular mental construct for it to be construed in that manner.

[Knaight]

Anorexia is probably not the best of topics to delve into though, especially without testing the waters first, and elf vs. human is a bit iffy due to the difference in frame. Being lean & having a larger skeleton(such as being taller, for instance) than an elf =/= being fat, and it would require some very particular mental construct for it to be construed in that manner.

Put more simply - if the extra weight is largely a factor of the skeleton being generally broader and tougher, it won't look like fat. An average gorilla is pretty heavy for it's height by human standards, but I don't know anyone who would consider them fat. There are still fat gorillas, and it's not hard to recognize despite the species difference. Heck, it's not hard to identify a fat squirrel.

[Slipperychicken]

Put more simply - if the extra weight is largely a factor of the skeleton being generally broader and tougher, it won't look like fat.

That is a fair interpretation, although I've been under the impression from PF that elves are supernaturally thin:


[PF Elves]

Physical Description: Generally taller than humans, elves possess a graceful, slender physique that is accentuated by their long, pointed ears. It is a mistake, however, to consider them weak or feeble, as the thin limbs of an elf can contain surprising power. Their eyes are wide and almond-shaped, and filled with large, vibrantly colored pupils. The coloration of elves as a whole varies wildly, and is much more diverse than that of human populations. However, as their coloration often matches their surroundings, the elves of a single community may appear quite similar. Forest-dwelling elves often have variations of green, brown, and tan in their hair, eye, and even skin tones.

The "light bones" thing is plausible, although I personally like to think of elves as slightly alien and fantastical in appearance, rather than as normal people with long ears.

[Coidzor]

That is a fair interpretation, although I've been under the impression from PF that elves are supernaturally thin:



The "light bones" thing is plausible, although I personally like to think of elves as slightly alien and fantastical in appearance, rather than as normal people with long ears.

Lighter, avian-like bones or not, their skeletons are actually physically smaller to accommodate that thinness, otherwise they'd look like starvation victims/the visibly anorexic.

[Knaight]

Lighter, avian-like bones or not, their skeletons are actually physically smaller to accommodate that thinness, otherwise they'd look like starvation victims/the visibly anorexic.

That's more what I was thinking. Basically, take the skeleton you'd expect from a really short human. Make the bones longer in such a way that height increases, but things like shoulder breadth don't. Bam, elves.

[lunar2]

you could go the other route, and have them not have any visual attraction at all. in the setting i'm working on, orcs have scent, and are exclusively attracted to pheromones.

dragons are sexually aroused by the "sound" of gold reflecting their truenames back at them when in the presence of another dragon, so they are attracted to large hoards of gold.

elves inherited the dragons' greedlust, but for knowledge and magic. spouting random useless trivia is flirting for an elf, and displays of arcane might is basically the equivalent of a lap dance.

dwarves value productive workers (it doesn't matter how hard you work, it matters how much you get done).

goblins are inherently likable, so they kind of have a free for all going on. think bonobos with slightly more modesty.

and quicklings value feats of strength and speed, which is why they're stronger than their small size would suggest, and much faster than they should be on those short little legs.

[GrayGriffin]

While not D&D, I have a Pokemon Tabletop United character who was raised by Hoothoot, and thus inherited their value system. Thus, for her, offering edibles of any kind is a flirtation, as it is a sign that you are trying to show your ability to provide for them. The only time it isn't considered that is if there is already some family relationship between the two, in which case it is simply providing for your family.

[Coidzor]

elves inherited the dragons' greedlust, but for knowledge and magic. spouting random useless trivia is flirting for an elf, and displays of arcane might is basically the equivalent of a lap dance.

So who are they giving a lap dance when they murder hobo in the face of an enemy wizard?

[JellyPooga]

Social cues are a big thing too. For example, I've been reading "Consider Phlebas" recently (awesome book) and to paraphrase, one line says that the offer of a handshake in one culture is a gesture of greeting but in another is a, uh, very much more friendly kind of proposal.

For Goblins, then, perhaps setting fire to yourself (or someone else) is seen an act of courtship, where the rest of the world merely sees it as lunacy. Orcs might consider a solid shoulder charge to be a provocative invitation rather than a thuggish attack. Minotaurs might find circuitous and convoluted conversation a total turn on, while blunt statement that get to the point are the height of rudeness.

Social awkwardness as a result of these kind of faux pa's is always an amusing skit.

[lunar2]

So who are they giving a lap dance when they murder hobo in the face of an enemy wizard?

it's a situational thing. in battle, they're too focused on not dying to get aroused by all the magic flying around, although they do tend to take note of who can cast the highest level spells. similarly, practical displays of magic are kind of like a woman bending over to pick something up off the floor. she might catch the eye of the guys around her, but most are going to glance over and then go about their business. what i was referring to was intentional displays of power, like shooting a fireball up into the air for fireworks.

[GPuzzle]

What would monsters find attractive?

A girl that reminds them of that babe.

[Aquillion]

What would monsters find attractive?

A girl that reminds them of that babe.What babe?

[GPuzzle]

What babe?

Babe with the power.

[Erik Vale]

What power?
The power of voodoo.
Who do?
You do.
Do what?
Remind me of the babe!



Now that that's out of our systems... I came in here thinking to add 'If your a Diopsid, long eye-stalks apparently, so beholders maybe', but that's about all I got after seeing this thread of win.

[FabulousFizban]

food, fire, & violence