PF Sorcerer//Oracle

[Elfkin_King]

What's some of the best ways to optimize this combination?
(I've got the stats to do basically anything I want, so that's not an issue.)
Base rolls (flexible to change): Str: 15 Dex: 15 Con: 25 Int: 17 Char: 30 Wis: 16
I'd LIKE to take the Cure path for the Oracle. I'd also like to be slightly more support than damage, but I'm note super picky about that either.

There are somewhere around 56 possible blood lines for the Sorcerer (including all Alternative/sub-blood-lines: 36 main, 20 variations) and 21 Oracle "Mysteries" (Blood-lines)

EDIT: It is in fact a Gestalt of Sorcerer//Oracle. A lot of the 3.5 stuff is allowed, subject to DM approval, which means that very little is disallowed.

[deuxhero]

Lunar and Lore (and nature has an inferior version) have revelations that swap your AC and reflex saves to charisma, Noble Scion: War makes your initiative charisma based. One of the celestial obedience gave you charisma to AC (among other stuff) for a feat that stacks with the revelations. The feat doesn't do anything till like level... 15 though.

Take Lunar for your mystery, and Slyvan Sorcerer for your bloodline. Be an Assimar (any +2 charisma variant) and make your favored class bonus boosting the revelation that gives you an animal companion. You now have a ridiculously high level pet. Hope your GM extrapoliates the animal companion table instead of caping at 20.

[Elfkin_King]

What about Spells known?
I thought I saw something somewhere about a couple of items that would improve that.

[Kudaku]

My first thought is to enter Mystic Theurge as soon as humanly possible.

[Elfkin_King]

My first thought is to enter Mystic Theurge as soon as humanly possible.
That was my first thought as well, but that keeps you from gaining the bloodline and mystery abilities, and I'm not sure that that is a good trade off, even if it is one or the other that I'm sacrificing.

[deuxhero]

Cracked Orange Prisim and Ring of Spell Knowledge are useful if you want something off list. I don't think you will NEED extra slots beyond that.

Oh and Theurgy is an interesting feat if you want to blast (though blasting is even less useful if your enemies will have gestalt, as enemies have more good saves and evasion is everywhere)

Normally I'd say caster/caster is one of the worst gestalts (only one set of actions), but PF gives both Oracle and Sorc a good number of passive revelations.

[Elfkin_King]

Cracked Orange Prisim and Ring of Spell Knowledge are useful if you want something off list. I don't think you will NEED extra slots beyond that.

Oh and Theurgy is an interesting feat if you want to blast (though blasting is even less useful if your enemies will have gestalt, as enemies have more good saves and evasion is everywhere)

Normally I'd say caster/caster is one of the worst gestalts (only one set of actions), but PF gives both Oracle and Sorc a good number of passive revelations.

I'm talking Spells Known, not spell slots.
And I don't think the DM is gestalting foes. At least, not anything that isnt a big deal. Maybe 1-3 per encounter.if that.

[Coidzor]

Speaking of which: What ways (if any) can a Sorcerer gain additional spells known?

Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine/Dragon Compendium will get extra spells known. Sandshaper PrC does the trick just fine. Fiend-Blooded PrC gives the player a selection of some more spells known based upon a limited set of [descriptors].

Edit: Also, Knowstones (Dragon Magazine) and Drake Helms+Shards (Explorer's Handbook, an Eberron book) both add spells known.


Or the Oracle (PF Advanced Players Guide)
Which works pretty well with the sorcerer.

Multiclassing between Sorcerer and Favored Soul is a horrible idea and so is Multiclassing between Sorcerer and Oracle. Not only will this fail to offset your ability scores so much as gimp your character it will also hurt the party as a whole unless there are other characters that are actually focused on providing the necessary magical support. In which case your character is flirting with being, or just flat out is, a waste of space by not having a niche that it fills and forcing two other characters to pick up your character's slack.

Theurge responsibly, and by that I mean only with early entry cheese and with prepared casters as the primary focus.

As far as gestalting goes, it's less than ideal because you want to have a passive side and an active side since you only have so many actions, but it's less damning than multiclassing.

[Kudaku]

Oops! I should have asked - is this a gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) build or are you planning to split levels between the two classes? I didn't see gestalt mentioned in the OP so I assumed you were splitting, but if it's a gestalt build there are a number of interesting options.

[Elfkin_King]

Bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine/Dragon Compendium will get extra spells known. Sandshaper PrC does the trick just fine. Fiend-Blooded PrC gives the player a selection of some more spells known based upon a limited set of [descriptors].



Multiclassing between Sorcerer and Favored Soul is a horrible idea and so is Multiclassing between Sorcerer and Oracle. Not only will this fail to offset your ability scores so much as gimp your character it will also hurt the party as a whole unless there are other characters that are actually focused on providing the necessary magical support. In which case your character is flirting with being, or just flat out is, a waste of space by not having a niche that it's filling and forcing two other characters to pick up your character's slack.

Theurge responsibly, and by that I mean only with early entry cheese and with prepared casters as the primary focus.

As far as gestalting goes, it's less than ideal because you want to have a passive side and an active side since you only have so many actions, but it's less damning than multiclassing.
It's gestalting. I chose these two so that I would function well in both roles, since we have a limited party size and I opted to play the mage and healer. With my stats I could probably play Melee and keep up with a good Magic User, and I understand and am familiar with melee classes a lot more than I am with magic, but I'm taking the opportunity to learn the other side and not be afraid of really sucking too hard for making bad decisions.

Oops! I should have asked - is this a gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) build or are you planning to split levels between the two classes? I didn't see gestalt mentioned in the OP so I assumed you were splitting, but if it's a gestalt build there are a number of interesting options.
Oops, that's my fault for not being clear: It's Gestalt.

[Coidzor]

It's gestalting. I chose these two so that I would function well in both roles, since we have a limited party size and I opted to play the mage and healer. With my stats I could probably play Melee and keep up with a good Magic User, and I understand and am familiar with melee classes a lot more than I am with magic, but I'm taking the opportunity to learn the other side and not be afraid of really sucking too hard for making bad decisions.

Oops, that's my fault for not being clear: It's Gestalt.

Well, in that case, there's certain things that open up with the addition of PF material, but these (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0)should (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520.0)be of interest to you so that you can take care of "mage" or "caster support" as your primarily role in combat, because you do not want to be switching gears in the middle of a fight.

You will have to choose between hitting things and casting spells and with the amount of spells you'll have to sling around you should go with casting spells judiciously. Many of the principles of the GOD wizard (most notably set up and maintain control of the battlefield so that your party wins rather than just killing the enemy yourself) will also apply to your situation.

[Elfkin_King]

Well, in that case, there's certain things that open up with the addition of PF material, but these (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0)should (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520.0)be of interest to you so that you can take care of "mage" or "caster support" as your primarily role in combat, because you do not want to be switching gears in the middle of a fight.

You will have to choose between hitting things and casting spells and with the amount of spells you'll have to sling around you should go with casting spells judiciously. Many of the principles of the GOD wizard (most notably set up and maintain control of the battlefield so that your party wins rather than just killing the enemy yourself) will also apply to your situation.

I'll have to check out those links. :)

Yeah, I have read a little out of the God-Wizard. It seems like a pretty good way for me to go, principally. I just can't handle being an actual wizard. Not yet, anyway. The sorcerer feels more user friendly for the Magic-Newbie. xD

[Kudaku]

Spontaneous casters seem easier to make initially but I actually find they're a lot harder to make well - if you mess up a wizard you can always swing by the library and pick up some new spells to "fix it" as you go. Spontaneous casters are much more "locked in" to what they do. If you pick bad level 1 spells you're not going to be able to fix that until level 4, or by spending a significant amount of WBL retraining.

Personally I'm not crazy about gestalting two different spontaneous casters since you're not really taking full advantage of the gestalt options - especially if you want to make the Oracle side a "support build". Life Oracle is awesome in its ability to put out sheer healing and keep people on their feet, but it's pretty hard to make the spell list cover all the buffs, utility and condition removal spells you're probably going to wish you had.

Now, if it was me I'd consider something like sorcerer/ cloistered cleric (into Evangelist at level 3 if possible), ideally using the Empyreal bloodline and putting my 30 in Wisdom. Alternately I'd just use charisma for sorcerer casting and stick with the 16 wisdom for cleric spells if I had another bloodline in mind.

If you primarily take CC or blasting spells on the sorcerer side and utility/buff spells on the cleric side, you're not really going to need an outrageous wisdom.

Completely unrelated to the topic but I'm wondering - Would you consider your GM experienced in running tabletop RPGs?

[Coidzor]

I'll have to check out those links. :)

Yeah, I have read a little out of the God-Wizard. It seems like a pretty good way for me to go, principally. I just can't handle being an actual wizard. Not yet, anyway. The sorcerer feels more user friendly for the Magic-Newbie. xD

The main thing about being a wizard is that, worst comes to worst, you can pick new spells, whereas with a Sorcerer you have to jump through some hoops to change up your selection if you slipped up, so the spells you pick from leveling up as a sorcerer are even more important decisions.

Solid spell choices mitigate that and change the advantage over to being able to use spells that are very niche when necessary without going to wands/scrolls.

That said, an Easy Bake (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4488.0) Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325933-Easy-Bake-Wizard-Handbook) may be of interest to you, if not now then possibly in the future.

[deuxhero]

I'm talking Spells Known, not spell slots.

I know, I just don't see why once you have (slightly) more than doubled your spells known you need further still.

If you REALLY want more, take Scion of Humanity Aasimar and Racial Heritage: Half-Elf

Now you cast Paragon Surge and pull any spells known you want to have out of your as... thin air via Expanded Arcana (which doesn't actually say how it works if you have multiple spellcasting classes, though strict RAW of gestalt you have one class with the Spells features of both. Ask your GM)

[Elfkin_King]

Spontaneous casters seem easier to make initially but I actually find they're a lot harder to make well - if you mess up a wizard you can always swing by the library and pick up some new spells to "fix it" as you go. Spontaneous casters are much more "locked in" to what they do. If you pick bad level 1 spells you're not going to be able to fix that until level 4, or by spending a significant amount of WBL retraining.

Personally I'm not crazy about gestalting two different spontaneous casters since you're not really taking full advantage of the gestalt options - especially if you want to make the Oracle side a "support build". Life Oracle is awesome in its ability to put out sheer healing and keep people on their feet, but it's pretty hard to make the spell list cover all the buffs, utility and condition removal spells you're probably going to wish you had.

Now, if it was me I'd consider something like sorcerer/ cloistered cleric (into Evangelist at level 3 if possible), ideally using the Empyreal bloodline and putting my 30 in Wisdom. Alternately I'd just use charisma for sorcerer casting and stick with the 16 wisdom for cleric spells if I had another bloodline in mind.

If you primarily take CC or blasting spells on the sorcerer side and utility/buff spells on the cleric side, you're not really going to need an outrageous wisdom.

Completely unrelated to the topic but I'm wondering - Would you consider your GM experienced in running tabletop RPGs?
No, I don't consider him experienced, but he is *currently * the best I've got by default, and I've dealt with much worse.

I guess I keep thinking that more spell slots is better. I'm used to martial adept classes (primarily warblade and swordsage)

The main thing about being a wizard is that, worst comes to worst, you can pick new spells, whereas with a Sorcerer you have to jump through some hoops to change up your selection if you slipped up, so the spells you pick from leveling up as a sorcerer are even more important decisions.

Solid spell choices mitigate that and change the advantage over to being able to use spells that are very niche when necessary without going to wands/scrolls.

That said, an Easy Bake (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4488.0) Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325933-Easy-Bake-Wizard-Handbook) may be of interest to you, if not now then possibly in the future.
Ill take a look at it :)

I know, I just don't see why once you have (slightly) more than doubled your spells known you need further still.

If you REALLY want more, take Scion of Humanity Aasimar and Racial Heritage: Half-Elf

Now you cast Paragon Surge and pull any spells known you want to have out of your as... thin air via Expanded Arcana (which doesn't actually say how it works if you have multiple spellcasting classes, though strict RAW of gestalt you have one class with the Spells features of both. Ask your GM)

Because sorcerers get spell slots for high cha, not spells known.spells known is pretty static. At least, as far as I understood it.

[Arbane]

I'm talking Spells Known, not spell slots.


Pages of Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge) are probably what you want. Pricey, but potentially very useful. Also, there's the usual scrolls, wands and such. (And your Use Magic Device check is going to be absurd, in the unlikely event a spell isn't on the cleric OR wizard spell lists.)

If you want to go Full Healer on the Oracle side, get the Life Oracle mystery. (Any non-evil Oracle can heal pretty well, the Life Oracle's probably the best at it.)

[Kudaku]

No, I don't consider him experienced, but he is *currently * the best I've got by default, and I've dealt with much worse.

I didn't intend any insult by asking, but when I see gestalt characters with ability scores in the 30ies it typically either translates to "GM who doesn't really know what he's in for" or "awesome GM".

I really wouldn't worry about spell slots/day. If you went with the empyreal sorcerer/cloistered cleric you'd have ~28 spells per day, not counting cantrips. So if you have five encounters each day, each encounter lasts five rounds and you cast a spell in every single round - you'd still have 3 left over. That number will dramatically increase as you gain access to additional spell levels. A typical non-gestalt sorcerer of the same level would have about a third of that, and they do just fine.

[Elfkin_King]

I didn't intend any insult by asking, but when I see gestalt characters with ability scores in the 30ies it typically either translates to "GM who doesn't really know what he's in for" or "awesome GM".

I really wouldn't worry about spell slots/day. If you went with the empyreal sorcerer/cloistered cleric you'd have ~28 spells per day, not counting cantrips. So if you have five encounters each day, each encounter lasts five rounds and you cast a spell in every single round - you'd still have 3 left over. That number will dramatically increase as you gain access to additional spell levels. A typical non-gestalt sorcerer of the same level would have about a third of that, and they do just fine.

You're fine. Lol, he is pretty knew to being GM but he has been around enough to know that my character is super broken. But I think I may like that idea. Do you have one for the reverse? If I were set on the Oracle side. I have so much wiggle room as far as abilities go that I can pretty much do anything well. Even monk xD

Btw: I tend to play elves, half elves, humans, or aasimer. I get really vain with my characters, so they tend to be "pretty people " xD that's my biggest weakness I think

[Kudaku]

You're fine. Lol, he is pretty knew to being GM but he has been around enough to know that my character is super broken. But I think I may like that idea. Do you have one for the reverse? If I were set on the Oracle side. I have so much wiggle room as far as abilities go that I can pretty much do anything well. Even monk xD

Btw: I tend to play elves, half elves, humans, or aasimer. I get really vain with my characters, so they tend to be "pretty people " xD that's my biggest weakness I think

Sounds like he's in a for a fun run. :smallsmile:

The main attraction of running with Empyreal sorcerer and cleric is that you can use your highest ability score in two casting classes that use different casting methods - you have the sorcerer spell slots for spells you use frequently and the massive cleric spell list for preparing the more unusual utility spells.

That said, if you'd be willing to move the 25 from con to a second casting stat you can pull off basically anything, including Wizard/Oracle or Arcanist/Oracle. Like you said, you have the stats to make even a monk pretty viable.

[ericgrau]

While a passive and active side is good on a gestalt because you only get 1 active action per turn, not 2, you can pick up a lot of passive or swift/immediate/non-action spells.

24 hour spells will conserve actions. For example false life + shield other + good con score. I once made a 24 hour shield other life oracle with energy body and selective channeling. There's a trait which let's you apply free metamagic to a single spell, which can be used to put free reach spell on your shield other. Other good 24 hour spells include unseen servant, mage armor, magic vestment, greater magic weapon, imbue with spell ability, animate dead. Most of your active spells should be sorcerer for that matter, because the spells tend to be stronger than oracle spells. The good ones are mostly battlefield control as always. That leaves passive to oracle. The problem is oracle doesn't have very many 24 hour passives. So take as many as you can on the oracle side. Your low level sorcerer spells shouldn't be active spells either, again since you only have time for the best, but low level hour/level arcane spells and so on are much easier to find. Plus you can use metamagic to convert low level sorcerer combat spells into high level combat spells which are a bit more useful and worth getting. Selective fireball, quicken web/levitate, dazing magic missile, etc.

UMD spam scrolls of gallant inspiration as your immediate action most rounds. You have the cha for UMD and it's so good that your roll of 20+ gallant inspiration scrolls will probably be your best item. You have access to both arcane and divine scrolls for that matter, so get just about every level 1-2 utility and remove X affliction sorcerer and cleric spell there is. There's a talent for +1 to UMD too.

Grace is a good way to move without provoking so you can get out of melee and then cast your active sorcerer battlefield control spell. Borrow fortune is a nice immediate action spell you can use near the end of a fight or immediately before getting to a safe distance, to avoid the drawback.

The "anti-trap combo" is to cast guidance+resistance+heroic fortune on the party melee before he opens a door or some such. Since cantrips are at-will, keep following him and tagging him with guidance+resistance even if you're not sure.

Clerics/oracles have all the good abjurations, so the essential ones like dispel magic can go on the oracle side to save room on the sorcerer side.

Feats and revelations flow naturally from the above: metamagic, skill focus(UMD), energy body, lifelink, combat healer. But not channel energy because you need your standard action for sorc stuff. Unless you combine with quick channel (UM) and then you'd skip energy body because it eats your move action. For a bloodline arcane is good to conserve your move action with metamagic so the oracle side can use it.

[grarrrg]

Any non-evil Oracle can heal pretty well, the Life Oracle's probably the best at it.

Correction: Any Oracle that chooses 'cure spells' can heal pretty well.
Good/Evil has nothing to do with it.
There is nothing preventing Good Oracles from choosing Inflict spells, or Evil choosing Cure spells.
There is nothing that preventing a Good Oracle from taking 'evil' mysteries like Bones, and nothing preventing an Evil Oracle from taking a 'good' mystery like Life.

Flavor-wise it is harder to justify such combinations, but there is nothing that stops you from doing so.

Depending on your actions, you may be subject to a shift in alignment, but this is based on your actions _after_ already having/using said Mystery/spells.

[Jack_Simth]

What about Spells known?
I thought I saw something somewhere about a couple of items that would improve that.
... 3.5 material allowed? How much cheddar do you want?

Play a Pathfinder Half-Elf, get... oh, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, and Sanctum Spell. Use the alternative favored Class Bonus (can you get it to both sides?) for extra spells known at one level below the highest level you can cast. Which, thanks to Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Versatile Spellcaster... is two levels higher than you get through your normal spells known. So at, say, 6th level, when you'd normally be rocking 3rd level spells known, you can cast 5th level spells... which means the racial alternative favoured class bonus gives you a 4th level spells known (which you can also cast, thanks to Versatile Spellcaster).

One of your spells known should be Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge). When you cast it, this gives you a bonus feat - which is what you're after. You've got a couple of amazing options, here. Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) which grants you "one spell from your class’s spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class’s spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class." - as you can cast spells two levels higher than your normal set, this means that at, say, 6th level, you can add two 4th level spells known for the duration. At level 11 or better, the other amazing option is Improved Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-eldritch-heritage). Now, this requires that you have already grabbed Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) (and you get Skill Focus for free as a Half-Elf). Grab the Arcane Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) this way (NOT through Sorcerer!) and use the floating Improved Eldritch Heritage feat from Paragon Surge to pick up New Arcana - which grants you a couple of spells known (one at 11th level, two at 15th level, three at 19th level [that includes the -2 from the feat, by the way, and is referring to your total character level]). No restrictions on what class you add them to, so put those on your Oracle side. They can all be up the the highest level you can cast, which is, again, two levels above what you'd be getting at this level.

However, you're going to have far, far more spells at most levels than you'll be able to cast in a reasonable timeframe. So I would actually suggest not going with Sorcerer//Oracle. Between Paragon Surge and Improved Eldritch Heritage, you can get any spell you'd want onto the Oracle list and cast them that way (doesn't work in the other direction, sadly). Additionally, Oracle spells are fine in Armor (they're Divine), but Sorcerer spells are not (they're Arcane). So dropping Sorcerer means that not only can you cast all the spells, you can wear actual armor, too. If you're stuck with Sorcerer//Oracle for one reason or another, OK, but it's not a combo I'd recommend.

Beyond that, what you're looking to do is get as much Charisma-synergy going for you as you can.
If you're stuck with Sorcerer//Oracle, then on the Sorcerer side, you might consider the Divine Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/spes-magna-games---sorcerer-bloodline/divine-bloodline), as it gives you a reasonable amount of Charisma synergy - Charisma to attack rolls with ranged touch spells a few times per day to limited targets, and eventually Charisma to saves a few times a day. On the Oracle side, if you're starting at 20th or higher, you might consider the Heavens (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/heavens) mystery (for Charisma to all saves, auto-Reincarnate) or Occult (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/occult) (turn into a Ghost when you get killed... which also gives you Charisma to AC and HP, plus a bunch of useful things from the template... and of course, if it's inconvenient, you can arrange to raise yourself from the dead fairly easily...). Otherwise, consider Lore (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) (Lore Keeper [Charisma instead of Int to Knowledge], Sidestep Secret [Charisma instead of Dex to AC and Reflex Saves], Automatic Writing [a nice free divination 1/day]).
If you are NOT stuck with (or on) Sorcerer//Oracle, then go primary Oracle, and put massive multiclassing on the other side to do Charisma synergy. Two levels of Paladin gives you Charisma to all saves (also heavy armor proficiency, and Charisma to melee attacks occasionally... but do get one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-chaos) of (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-corruption) the (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-fiends) alternate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-grotesquery) oaths (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-savagery), as (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-the-wyrm) they (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-undeath) are (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-charity) much (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-loyalty) more (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance) flexible than the standard Paladin's Code of Conduct), two levels in Monk gives you Wisdom to AC and Evasion (which can be turns into Charisma to AC with Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer... also requires some levels in Sorcerer or some such, though). Some dipping in Swordsage (Tome of Battle) also gives you Wisdom to AC (in light armor, which can also be turned into Charisma based - alibit at a higher feat cost - via Ascetic Mage) and manuevers... and manuevers can do lots of things for you, like Diamond Mind replacing saves with Concentration checks (which are Charisma-based inherently for you in Pathfinder as a Charisma-based caster). You may want to look through the X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus&p=6970727&viewfull=1#post6970727) thread for ideas.

And, of course, if you're not stuck on Sorcerer, you may also want to consider a few templates on that side in addition to the multiclassing. Ghost is a personal favourite of mine (although Pathfinder has the option for the third-party Dread Ghost, which is better, and is complemented well by Undead Lord, also 3rd party, and Evolved Undead from Libris Mortis), as is Phrenic (Expanded Psionic Handbook).


Correction: Any Oracle that chooses 'cure spells' can heal pretty well.
Good/Evil has nothing to do with it.
There is nothing preventing Good Oracles from choosing Inflict spells, or Evil choosing Cure spells.
There is nothing that preventing a Good Oracle from taking 'evil' mysteries like Bones, and nothing preventing an Evil Oracle from taking a 'good' mystery like Life.

Flavor-wise it is harder to justify such combinations
... how so? Oracles are supposedly cursed. Their power comes not from their own choice, but by the machinations of some other power (which they harness to their own ends, don't get me wrong).

[Arbane]

If we're discussing other possibilities, how about Oracle//Barbarian/Rage Prophet? That might be a way to make Rage Prophet actually good. (Disclaimer: I don't know how PrCs are supposed to work in gestalt.)

[ericgrau]

EDIT: It is in fact a Gestalt of Sorcerer//Oracle. A lot of the 3.5 stuff is allowed, subject to DM approval, which means that very little is disallowed.
Oh, I missed that part. Then there are way more spell options than what I listed. For more 24 hour buffs on the oracle side (assuming you make oracle the passive side like I suggested) I found:


Obscuring snow + snowsight (Frostburn) is a nice combo to make yourself a walking hard to target cloud that only you can see through. You'll need an eternal wand for the snowsight though, since it's druid/ranger. Or some way to get the winter domain.

Greater resistance (Spell Compendium)

Segojan's Armor (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041117a) + Magic Vestment on 1 or more allies

[grarrrg]

If you are NOT stuck with (or on) Sorcerer//Oracle, then go primary Oracle, and put massive multiclassing on the other side to do Charisma synergy. Two levels of Paladin gives you Charisma to all saves

Enlightened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype) Paladin would get you CHA to AC as well (semi-level dependent).

At a glance, the only Oaths that stack are Fiends, Grotesquery, and Chastity. Of the three, Chastity is pretty 'meh' and Fiends is a little too specific for most campaigns. Grotesquery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-grotesquery) has potential though, grants spell resistance vs. non-harmless Transmutation effects, and reduces any CHA damage/drain you might be targeted by.


... how so? Oracles are supposedly cursed. Their power comes not from their own choice, but by the machinations of some other power (which they harness to their own ends, don't get me wrong).

Their 'power'/Curse may not be of their own choice, but their Mystery is based on who/what they are:
"This mystery can represent a devotion to one ideal, prayers to deities that support the concept, or a natural calling to champion a cause. For example, an oracle with the waves mystery might have been born at sea and found a natural calling to worship the gods of the oceans, rivers, and lakes, be they benign or malevolent."

So getting a Good aligned character with the Bones Mystery is not very likely, so you'd need some flavor justification for why it's OK that you are summoning all these "EVIL" Skeletons and whatnot.
Likewise, an Evil Life Mystery character would need to jump through a Flavor hoop or three. If you're so Evil, why are you devoted to healing people?



If we're discussing other possibilities, how about Oracle//Barbarian/Rage Prophet? That might be a way to make Rage Prophet actually good. (Disclaimer: I don't know how PrCs are supposed to work in gestalt.)

Agreed on the "might" make Rage Prophet decent.
General Gestalt rules limit you to only 1 PrC at a time. So you could do Rage Prophet//Oracle, or Rage Prophet//Barbarian, but you could not do Rage Prophet//Horizon Walker.
The Casting would also not stack. If you did Rage Prophet//Oracle on the same level, you'd only get +1 to your Oracle casting.
Straight Barb//Oracle for 5 levels, then going straight Rage Prophet on one side, paired with Oracle on the "no casting" levels, and Barbarian on the "casting" levels should work well enough. This would get you full casting, -almost- Full Bab, and -almost- d12HD, you'd gain enough Barb levels to keep the Rage/Rage Powers going strong. Oracle side would suffer a little, but you'd still maintaining Full Casting and getting an extra Revelation or so.

I'm still not sure the bonuses would be worth enough to not just go Barb//Oracle the whole way though. And if the game is going to go to level 20, then I'd say forget Rage Prophet entirely, otherwise you'd miss out on the Capstone abilities.

Hmm....
Maybe Side A is pure Oracle, but make Side B a few levels of Barb, then a level of Cleric (or Inquisitor/Druid). Then at level 7 start taking Rage Prophet levels and using the "+ Divine Casting" and apply it to your Cleric casting instead...still not sure it's worth it though.

[Jack_Simth]

Enlightened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/enlightened-paladin-paladin-archetype) Paladin would get you CHA to AC as well (semi-level dependent).
... it caps at 1 per level. A two level dip gets you +2 to your AC (if you have at least 14 Cha). A four level dip, +4 (if you have at least 18 Cha). How's that 'semi' level dependent?



At a glance, the only Oaths that stack are Fiends, Grotesquery, and Chastity. Of the three, Chastity is pretty 'meh' and Fiends is a little too specific for most campaigns. Grotesquery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-grotesquery) has potential though, grants spell resistance vs. non-harmless Transmutation effects, and reduces any CHA damage/drain you might be targeted by.That's not the point of grabbing one of the Oaths. It's because it changes the code of conduct. The standard paladin can't associate with Evil except under exceptional circumstances... meanwhile, the Paladin with the Oath Against Fiends (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-against-fiends) has a lot more flexibility in that regard (although must still adhere to the associated Deity's code of conduct). Still has to avoid Evil acts (the Ex-paladin clause is separate from the Code of Conduct), and still must remain Lawful Good (likewise), but a different Code of Conduct makes tolerating the more chaotic or less good characters in the party simpler.

[deuxhero]

At level 11 or better, the other amazing option is Improved Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-eldritch-heritage).

I was going to say that, then realized he can already expanded arcana his sorcerer side to largely the same effect, no need to blow 2 extra feats for 1 extra temporary spells at very high levels over just extra arcana

[grarrrg]

... it caps at 1 per level. A two level dip gets you +2 to your AC (if you have at least 14 Cha). A four level dip, +4 (if you have at least 18 Cha). How's that 'semi' level dependent?

If Level > CHA, then it caps at CHA.
If CHA > Level, then it caps at Level.

Semi-level dependent.


That's not the point of grabbing one of the Oaths. It's because it changes the code of conduct.

I read most of them as "in addition to the normal Code of Conduct" rather than "replaces the normal Code of Conduct".

[Jack_Simth]

I was going to say that, then realized he can already expanded arcana his sorcerer side to largely the same effect, no need to blow 2 extra feats for 1 extra temporary spells at very high levels over just extra arcana
It's only one extra feat (Half-Elf to get Paragon Surge grants a free Skill Focus anyway). But that's minor nitpicking.

The benefits of Improved Eldritch Heritage over Expanded Arcana are situational and twofold (at least, of the ones I can see):
1) At any level, Expanded Arcana gets you at most two spells known. At very high levels, Improved Eldritch Heritage gets you three. This is useful if you want to, say, grab the entire set of spells you'll need for a particular use of (Lesser/Greater) Planar Binding - as you can get the Magic Circle Against [Alignment], the (Lesser/Greater) Planar Binding Spell itself, and either Dimensional Anchor or Dismissal all in one go.
2) Improved Eldritch Heritage lets you put your Sorcerer spells on the Oracle side of the Gestalt. If you're going a full Sorcerer//Oracle, that usually won't matter (the case where it does being that you've just been through some form of endurance challenge, and are low on spells on one side or the other as a result... or you want to be able to wear armor while casting the spells). If you're not going full Sorcerer//Oracle, however, Improved Eldritch Heritage lets you grab basically any Sorcerer spell you'd want and cast it anyway despite the fact that you're a divine caster.

So you prepare the character such that you can use Improved Eldritch Heritage at 11th (and an Arcane Bond for a Ring is useful anyway - cheap item creation for whatever you'd be putting in the ring slot anyway, and oh yes - with this build, it's a slot for the highest level spell you know 1/day.... which with a bit of work, can be two levels higher than you'd normally be able to cast at this level; an 8th level spell at level 12, for instance, as you can use two 6th level spell slots to cast something heightened to 7th, which is then treated as an 8th level spell when cast...) and then just grab either Expanded Arcana or Improved Eldritch Heritage via Paragon Surge, whichever is more beneficial at the time, and use that.

The point is flexibility and access. For the most part, a Sorcerer/Oracle is half a spell level behind a Wizard/Cleric. This build gets a limited ability to be 1.5 spell levels ahead of the standard Wizard/Cleric, and able to use basically any spell in that range on one round of notice - although it is only 1/day for the extreme high end, and a small number of times per day for the half level ahead (as it eats two slots of the next level down - so at 12th, this build can cast 1 8th level spell a day, and [given the Charisma 30] two or three 7th level spells - on each side, if going the Sorcerer//Oracle route).

[Vortenger]

I'd suggest dipping 2 levels of paladin on the oracle side before proceeding to do pretty much what everyone else has suggested with your oracle. See if the half elves racial ability to have two favored classes means you get both favored boni (On sorcerer and oracle, that is). Half Elves are also human enough to take their racial class bonus: an extra spell each level. Combine the previous with the trait Finding Haleen, if your DM ok's it, for an extra HP and skill point per level.

[grarrrg]

See if the half elves racial ability to have two favored classes means you get both favored boni (On sorcerer and oracle, that is).

Going by the spirit of the Gestalt rules, you'd still only get 1 Favored Class bonus per level. Being Half-Elf you could freely alternate between Oracle and Sorcerer, but you'd have to choose each level.