How does Heighten Spell interact with Practical Metamagic/Incantatrix10/etc.?

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm in a 3.Pathfinder game dealing with a situation where I need my Sorcerer to get past an immunity to spells of sixth level and lower. I'd like to use Heighten Spell to get a Disintegrate through, but I'd also like to be able to apply a decent amount of metamagic to the things; I've invested heavily in Practical Metamagic and I'd like to be able use the damn stuff without having to use up my 2/day free metamagics. As is I'd only be able to slap a Twin on it, and that would eat a ninth level slot. Or does Inc10 reduce the cost of Heighten?

[AnonymousPepper]

I'll not make a habit of excessively bumping things, but I'd really like an answer on this one.

[Alex12]

That's a good question, actually. I'm not sure, but I'll note that Practical Metamagic doesn't specify Heighten Spell as something that isn't permitted. In contrast, Arcane Thesis (which is otherwise similar to Practical Metamagic but sort of flipped) specifically says it's not compatible with Heighten Spell.
Ask your DM, but based on that omission, it's probably okay.

[SalterisSolaris]

I think the sentence in question is:

"[...]whenever she uses a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level (if any) is reduced by one (minimum +1 spell level)." (Class Ability Improved Metamagic, Inc10)

As such, I see no reason why this should not work with Heighten. Heighten is a perfectly normal MM feat after all, it's only special inasmuch as the spell level bump to pay for it is not predefined as in all other metamagic. Meaning you can pick the desired resulting spell level, but have to pay accordingly. The Improved Metamagic ability will then lower the cost by one before you do so.

[Khedrac]

If one is being picky about the wording of Heighten Spell you get some odd effects if you combine it with metamagic reducers:


A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Due to the last sentence if you alter its level for casting (by applying a metamagic reducer) you have just changed its "effective level", feed that back into the rest of the description and you have just lowered the heightened level by the same amount.

Umm, arguably that means if you also empower it then the effective level and heightened level go up by the empower amount as well - not such a good interpretation then.

Basically don't expect your DM to allow this one - it's essentially getting Spell Focus (with side benefits) as a bonus feat.

[Erik Vale]

Stray thought caused by this thread, with incantrix 3's ability to apply metamagic to any spell with a large enough duration with a check, would it be possible to apply heighten spell to cast spells to increase DCs/etc.

[Rijan_Sai]

Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, etc. cannot be used to reduce the spell slot for Highten Spell. (To the best of my knowledge) there are no metamagic reducers that allow you to go lower then +0 spell slot adjustment, and I know of no ways to prepare a spell in a lower spell slot then the spell's level. Because Highten directly increases the level of the spell, and not just the spell slot, you can't reduce it to lower then the new level.

For example:
Fireball - 3rd level spell (requires 3rd level spell slot); DC 10+3+(Casting Stat)
Empowered Fireball - 3rd level spell (requires 5th level spell slot); DC 10+3+(Casting Stat)
Hightened(+2) Fireball - 5th level spell (requires 5th level spell slot); DC 10+5+(Casting Stat)
Empowered Hightened(+2) Fireball - 5th level spell (requires 7th level spell slot); DC 10+5+(Casting Stat)

^Those Empowers can be reduced; the Hightens cannot.



Stray thought caused by this thread, with incantrix 3's ability to apply metamagic to any spell with a large enough duration with a check, would it be possible to apply heighten spell to cast spells to increase DCs/etc.

This is interesting...while I don't know too much about that class and abilities, this might actually be possible!

[Morbis Meh]

If you want to make heighten spell more effective look at Earth Spell, it raises the spell level of spell under heighten by one extra at no cost: eg raising magic missile to a 4th level slot with heighten will result it becoming a 5th level spell from a 4th level slot with Earth Spell

[RedMage125]

The Incantatrix 10's ability can reduce the spell-level increase by 1, but never below 1.

So an Incantatrix with the Heighten Spell feat cannot make ALL his spells Heightened by 1 level, and then preparing them in their normal level, because the Improved Metamagic ability explicitly states that a minimum of 1 level is required.

HOWEVER...

If that same Incantatrix uses Heighten to increase by 2 or more, the Improved Metamagic ability would lower the level adjustment.

So to use someone's earlier example, a Heightened (+2 to spell's level) Fireball would be considered a 5th level spell, and take up a 4th level spell slot.

Heightened (+2), Empowered Fireball would take up a 5th level spell slot.

Now, as far as how Practical Metamagic interacts with Heighten Spell...you do know PM only applies to ONE metamgaic feat each time it's taken, right? So, you could have Practical Metamagic (Empower) or Practical Metamagic (Heighten), but those would be separate feats, and they require you to have the metamagic feat in question.

The way I read those rules (and how I'd rule if I was your DM) is this: If an Incantatrix 10 takes Practical Metamagic, the effects stack (after all, the player has invested quite a lot of limited character resources towards making this work), BUT, the Incantatrix 10's caveat of "No less than +1" still applies, so you could not take Practical Metamagic (Empower) as the Incantatrix in order to Empower all your spells free of cost, but you could take Practical Metamagic (Maximize) to make all Maximized spells cost only +1.

As far as Heighten and PM...again, as a DM, I feel that if a player is willing to spend 2 feats on something, they should get SOME kind of payout. If you chose to spend your feats on Heighten Spell and Practical Metamagic (Heighten), then I, as your DM would allow you to get the free boost to your save DCs, but keep in mind, as a sorcerer, it will still take a full-round action to cast that spell. And once the 10th level of Incantatrix is taken, you still must abide by the "minimum +1" rule. But if you started abusing that too much, expect that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and start seeing enemies that show anti-caster tactics (counterspelling, readied actions, etc.).