Spellthief shortcomings

[G.Cube]

Why is Spellthief bad at it's job as a mageslayer, and what would it need to get the job done right?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure why you think the Spellthief's job is "mage slayer"; I don't see the class description saying so. Rather, I'd say their job is to be a skillmonkey and skirmisher, similar to the Rogue class; where the Rogue has better sneak attack damage, the Spellthief has some minor spellcasting ability plus their signature spell stealing.

So why is it not a mage slayer? First, the Spellthief isn't particularly better at hitting mages than anybody else is; indeed, it has partial BAB and suffers from MAD. A Barbarian, for example, has a better chance at hitting a mage; and if the mage has any defense spells up (even something as low-level as Mirror Image) then neither class has much of a counter to that except to attack a few times more.

Second, what happens if you hit? Congrats, you've now stolen a spell. For example, suppose you were level 8, then you've now taken a 4th level spell of the mage you were fighting ... but that means he has three other 4th level spells left, plus five 3rd level spells. So while this ability is certainly fun to play with, it doesn't really slay mages much. On the other hand, if the Barbarian manages to unload a full attack on the mage, then the mage is dead.

That said I do like the class, although I'd prefer a build like ST1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster X over straight Spellthief 7; the Master Spellthief feat makes them support multiclassing very well.

[Catalysis]

Why is Spellthief bad at it's job as a mageslayer, and what would it need to get the job done right?

Knowing the rules.

If you can, don't multiclass, because even with master spellthief, your spell capacity won't increase. The example above could only keep a firts level spell at level 20.

Your spell capacity is equal to your spellthief class level, meaning that a level nine spellthief with MasterSpellthief could with the right build/amount of level, steal AND keep 9th level spell.

So, a spellthief 20 would need high dex and charisma. Focus on moving and lauching a single arrow every round. Try and get a perfect fly speed, always cast sniper shot (no distance limit to Sneak atk) and guided shot (10x range increment to your bow with no penality), two first level divination spells from the sor/wiz spell list. Golem strike to sneak atk construct is also good. Get friendly with the town's cleric and use hum as a living battery (grave strike to Sneak atk undead) by handshaking with him from time to time! (You can steal spell with touch attack against a willing subject, enchatment could be a great way to exploit this)

Master spellthief is an awesome feat even if you don't multiclass: you remove arcane spell faillure due to your light armor on stolen spells that would otherwise be affected.
One can also deduce from the example given in the description of the feat (4 lvl spellthief + 4 lvl Wizard = 8 arcane caster lvl enabling to steal 4th level spells) that spellthief gain full caster level by taking the feat!
God's blooded spellthief (magic domain) will give you access to a pretty efficient list of spells to convert your stolen spells in (spell restistance, anti-magic field, dispel magic, spell turning, and finally mordenkainen's disjunction are the good ones provided within the domain).

Take another look at the rules, you can forgo one die of Sneak atk to steal a spell, can you forgo two dice of Sneak atk to steal two spells? According to discussions on this forum, yes. So try to convince your DM to let you take those feats from unearthed arcana that adds up 2d6 of Sneak atk and 3d6 of Sneak atk (improved sneak atk) on page 76.

That gives you 10d6 Sneak atk at 20 level, add up rogue's vest for another two dice: +12d6, add the craven feat for a + character level to damage.

So at 20th spellthief level you would deal 12d6+20 damage + weapon and enhancements damage.

Cast sniper shot and guided shot and forgo 12 dice of sneak atk to absorb 12 spells from your foe, deal 20 damage plus any enhancements and weapon damage, and select the best spells you want to hold back for latter uses. Oh, and with discoverspells you now know all remain spell casting capabilities your foe has, so you can pick greater choices of stolen low level spell for your next sneak atk.

That was the sponge technique.

Force of personnality adds charisma instead of wisdom to will saves.

Don't bother too much about skills: hide, move silently, use magic device, spot, listen, spellcraft(maybe), and knowledge arcana will do the job (6+ 1 bonus from intelligence 12 will do).

Absorb spells combined to good karma(another feat!): land near the tank to take the save against an incomming spell (or SLA), if you succed, absorb it, then if you are not level 20th, wait until next turn to smack your foe in the face with his own spell (or SLA), his own caster level and his own DC as a save.

Also check out: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?44299-Jack-Of-All-Trades-Fax-Celestis-Guide-to-Spellthieves

Spellthieves are the equivalent of dnd in hard mode, but if you can pull it of, then you'll have tales worth telling!

[Kurald Galain]

So, a spellthief 20 would need high dex and charisma.

Very few campaigns ever reach level 20, and fewer still spend a lot of time there. If you want to prove that the Spellthief is a capable mage slayer, examples that work in the 5-10 level range would be much better (moreso if they don't rely on "convincing your DM that you can take...")

[Catalysis]

Very few campaigns ever reach level 20, and fewer still spend a lot of time there. If you want to prove that the Spellthief is a capable mage slayer, examples that work in the 5-10 level range would be much better (moreso if they don't rely on "convincing your DM that you can take...")

Well, all I said earlier could work at 7th level (except discoverspells, wich is a 13th lvl ability). The Sneak atk feats are legit! They are just from another setting, the "Generic" setting. It's like asking a DM to addapt Dragon lance to your game with the WotC campaign setting (not d20 official).

It's the only twist.

I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm not even willing to debate, because in the end, a wizard is the best mage slayer out there

He just needs to win the initiative roll:smalltongue: