druids aren't tier 1 they're tier I kick your ass. Help me compete with our druid.

[clericgirl]

ok so I'm a lv 7 going as a DMM melee cleric. Our dm has decided that night sticks stack, however; in order to prevent me from "stick" abuse he limited me to two nightsticks that renew each day. So my domains are planning and undeath. I'm wielding a +2 large fire and keen great sword. I have Strongarm Bracers, a Reliquary Holy Symbol and I'm wearing a Mithral Spiked Full Plate of Speed. So I'm not underpowered at my level, at least I don't think, at all. I can persist 3 spells per day with the extra turning, charisma, night sticks and such. I usually run Divine power, Luminous armor greater, and divine favor.

However; how can I compete with our druid? His celestial/exalted Alaskan Kodiak bear walks into battle with 4 arms (Girallon’s Blessing I think), his mouth, luminous armor, bull str and eats everything. His bear has as much hp as I do and does more damage. The bear has apparently taken a vop(how does that work?) and with his str bonus from vop + his animal companion levels has a 30 str ( not including bull str). Also since the bear as improved nat attack(claws) as one of his feats he's hitting like a freight train. Then there are his summons. His HUGE ass croc, or several dire wolves, comes out the first round; his large giant croc has more hp than me. Then more smaller crocs come the second round and just about everything enemy is shut down, or eaten. The druid slings what remaining spells he has as damage, or he spits and blinds them or wraps them in kelp while flying nicely out of danger.

I don't mean to sound ungrateful for an awesome character but damn! I feel like I should sit and say hey dude, I'll buff yah if needed or maybe toss a heal or two if not I'll be over here sleeping.

How can I compete with that at this level?

[Malroth]

You also have Extend spell so you can Extend Persistant Buffs to last 48 hours to persist 6 buffs instead of 3 this should push you ahead of the bear archangel at least on utility

Edit: You've also got access to the planar ally line of spells, take some downtime to summon your own permanent Minions

[clericgirl]

not a whole lot that I can persist that I could extend to 48 hours. Planar ally could help, but my gm is vindictive in his negotiations.

It just seems at least at this level druids are op.

[JeminiZero]

So I'm not underpowered at my level, at least I don't think, at all. I can persist 3 spells per day with the extra turning, charisma, night sticks and such. I usually run Divine power, Luminous armor greater, and divine favor.
Why are you persisting Greater Luminous Armor? It already lasts hrs/level. It might be more efficient to use Rod of Extend, or just prepare 2 castings. Perhaps persist something like Mass Lesser Vigor instead (so you don't need to save any spells for healing)?


The bear has apparently taken a vop(how does that work?) and with his str bonus from vop + his animal companion levels has a 30 str ( not including bull str). Also since the bear as improved nat attack(claws) as one of his feats he's hitting like a freight train.
While I'm not sure HOW the bear is taking VoP, do note that VoP provides an enhancement bonus to strength, that does not stack with Bulls Strength.

Clerics *can* get a minion on par with the Druid animal companion, but that usually involves Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm), and access to the right corpses (usually a Dragon with 4x your CL). Unfortunately, animating undead is usually considered evil. Check with your DM whether whether he is fine with this. If allowed, don't forget to use Desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) for extra HP.

Alternatively, if you want to match its raw strength, you need to DMM Persist Consumptive Field (Spell Compendium) which gives +2 bonus Strength with NO CAP for each creature the field kills. Buy some eternal wands of summon monster I, and start each day with a fresh massacre. Unfortunately, this spell is also evil.

If you happen to be using Rebuke Undead (instead of turn undead), you can also use it to gain permanent control of undead whose total HD does not exceed your level (and seperate from your animate dead pool). This might not seem like much, but it can be used to seize control of undead that create obedient spawn. Such as Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) or Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm). These spawn would then under your indirect command, and unlike animate dead, there is no limit to how many spawn can be controlled, so you could amass an army. But again, this tends to be evil. (You might be beginning to see a pattern here).

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Have you tried getting minions of your own to help delay the bear and any summons? Clerics do two types very well. Constructs and undead. Both have a bunch of HP and are crit immune so a few should be able to soak attacks long enough for you to deal with the druid. As for the druid, wis damage and BFC. Hitting him in the mentals will deplete his spells and weaken his save, allowing you to finish with a save or die.
And as a backup, Int damage to the pet should drop it long enough to do the deed as well.

Ignore that. I read your post too hasty and thought you wanted to kill off the druid. :smallsmile:

Either way, you can play the same way. A set of burly minions that you buff up will go a long way towards making things feel level. You even have more options for minions as well, and a lot of those are better than some silly animals.

[The Insanity]

You shouldn't compete with your teammates. It's a cooperative game.

[Killer Angel]

You shouldn't compete with your teammates. It's a cooperative game.

That's not the point. The point is to be at a similar power level of the strong teammate, so you don't feel useless.

[Yanisa]

While I'm not sure HOW the bear is taking VoP, do note that VoP provides an enhancement bonus to strength, that does not stack with Bulls Strength.

I smell shenanigans, or the DM home ruling.

If the druid is level 7, a black bear would benefit from 4 druid levels, giving him 2 bonus HD... A black bear has 3 HD, so with 2 more we get at 5 HD, which means it doesn't get feats yet. Besides that VoP has a prerequisite (Wasted Vow? I forgot the name) so that means another feat is needed. So when the bear reaches 9 HD he could have VoP, which means a 13th level druid.

So there is something going on, lets give it the benefit of the doubts and call it that he DM ruled in favor of the druid rather then the druid is cheating, but regardless it's easier to become more powerful if the druid is allowed to bend rules to his favor. :smalltongue: It's similar to how some DM don't care about prepared spells and allow players to cast whatever, that makes Wizards/Druids/Clerics much stronger and outshine Sorcerers. Try to talk with the DM and/or the Druid to see if there are special home rules in action. (Like allowing the druid retrain the base feats of the Bear)

Besides I am not sure if this is Pathfinder only, but I thought animals couldn't take normal feats because their int was 1-2, but I cannot find it back on the SRD. It is a rule in PF, so that may be my confusion.

[Vizzerdrix]

You shouldn't compete with your teammates. It's a cooperative game.


I couldn't agree more! Right up until a party member gets hit with mind control. Then it is a PvP game whether you want it or not.

Remember folks, always have a plan to kill off your own party.

[JeminiZero]

I couldn't agree more! Right up until a party member gets hit with mind control. Then it is a PvP game whether you want it or not.
Or, you know, have Magic Circle Against X handy?:smalltongue:

[shadowseve]

I smell shenanigans, or the DM home ruling.

If the druid is level 7, a black bear would benefit from 4 druid levels, giving him 2 bonus HD... A black bear has 3 HD, so with 2 more we get at 5 HD, which means it doesn't get feats yet. Besides that VoP has a prerequisite (Wasted Vow? I forgot the name) so that means another feat is needed. So when the bear reaches 9 HD he could have VoP, which means a 13th level druid.

So there is something going on, lets give it the benefit of the doubts and call it that he DM ruled in favor of the druid rather then the druid is cheating, but regardless it's easier to become more powerful if the druid is allowed to bend rules to his favor. :smalltongue: It's similar to how some DM don't care about prepared spells and allow players to cast whatever, that makes Wizards/Druids/Clerics much stronger and outshine Sorcerers. Try to talk with the DM and/or the Druid to see if there are special home rules in action. (Like allowing the druid retrain the base feats of the Bear)

Besides I am not sure if this is Pathfinder only, but I thought animals couldn't take normal feats because their int was 1-2, but I cannot find it back on the SRD. It is a rule in PF, so that may be my confusion.

what I think is going on is this. A level 7 druid can have a brown bear as a pet. the bear is an exalted bear meaning he has an int score of 3 he can take feats. the druid must have either taken a vop thus getting exalted companion as a bonus feat or taken the exalted companion feat. Monsters gain feats as there hd goes up. a level 7th druid who had natural bond could have a brown bear of 8 hd. Btw a black bear has 4 hd. If the brown bear has improved nat attack and vop it's possible the dm let him feat swap using the retrain rule in phb II. I had considered talking to my dm about a very similar matter.

So an exalted brown bear with 8 hd and vow of poverty would have Exalted strike +1 (magic) Sustenance AC bonus +6, deflection +1, Resistance +1, ability score enhancement +2, Natural armor +1, mind shielding plus a few bonus exalted feats. Once a vop is taken you get all the abilities retroactively except the exalted feats.

brown bear has a str of 27. So with the + enhancement to str that takes it to 29 then +1 for the animal companion level of 3 takes it to 30. This is my guess. though it's only a guess.

[shadowseve]

That's not the point. The point is to be at a similar power level of the strong teammate, so you don't feel useless.

I think it's this. I don't think she's wanting to compete instead she wants to be just as viable. It does seem like the druid is overshadowing things.

[GreyBlack]

ok so I'm a lv 7 going as a DMM melee cleric. Our dm has decided that night sticks stack, however; in order to prevent me from "stick" abuse he limited me to two nightsticks that renew each day. So my domains are planning and undeath. I'm wielding a +2 large fire and keen great sword. I have Strongarm Bracers, a Reliquary Holy Symbol and I'm wearing a Mithral Spiked Full Plate of Speed. So I'm not underpowered at my level, at least I don't think, at all. I can persist 3 spells per day with the extra turning, charisma, night sticks and such. I usually run Divine power, Luminous armor greater, and divine favor.

However; how can I compete with our druid? His celestial/exalted Alaskan Kodiak bear walks into battle with 4 arms (Girallon’s Blessing I think), his mouth, luminous armor, bull str and eats everything. His bear has as much hp as I do and does more damage. The bear has apparently taken a vop(how does that work?) and with his str bonus from vop + his animal companion levels has a 30 str ( not including bull str). Also since the bear as improved nat attack(claws) as one of his feats he's hitting like a freight train. Then there are his summons. His HUGE ass croc, or several dire wolves, comes out the first round; his large giant croc has more hp than me. Then more smaller crocs come the second round and just about everything enemy is shut down, or eaten. The druid slings what remaining spells he has as damage, or he spits and blinds them or wraps them in kelp while flying nicely out of danger.

I don't mean to sound ungrateful for an awesome character but damn! I feel like I should sit and say hey dude, I'll buff yah if needed or maybe toss a heal or two if not I'll be over here sleeping.

How can I compete with that at this level?

Agreed with everyone else. Animate dead can make you extremely powerful and commanding hordes of undead dragons will give you power.

Another option, because it seems like you're going the for the CoDzilla route, is dipping Crusader for Ruby Knight Vindicator and seeing how your DM rules Divine Impetus. Swift action abuse into supreme power. Load up on swift spells and cast out the wazoo. Subject to interpretation, however, but I would fight for the interpretation that each time you burn a turn attempt, you get a swift action.

[shadowseve]

Why are you persisting Greater Luminous Armor? It already lasts hrs/level. It might be more efficient to use Rod of Extend, or just prepare 2 castings. Perhaps persist something like Mass Lesser Vigor instead (so you don't need to save any spells for healing)?


While I'm not sure HOW the bear is taking VoP, do note that VoP provides an enhancement bonus to strength, that does not stack with Bulls Strength.

Clerics *can* get a minion on par with the Druid animal companion, but that usually involves Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm), and access to the right corpses (usually a Dragon with 4x your CL). Unfortunately, animating undead is usually considered evil. Check with your DM whether whether he is fine with this. If allowed, don't forget to use Desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) for extra HP.

Alternatively, if you want to match its raw strength, you need to DMM Persist Consumptive Field (Spell Compendium) which gives +2 bonus Strength with NO CAP for each creature the field kills. Buy some eternal wands of summon monster I, and start each day with a fresh massacre. Unfortunately, this spell is also evil.

If you happen to be using Rebuke Undead (instead of turn undead), you can also use it to gain permanent control of undead whose total HD does not exceed your level (and seperate from your animate dead pool). This might not seem like much, but it can be used to seize control of undead that create obedient spawn. Such as Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) or Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm). These spawn would then under your indirect command, and unlike animate dead, there is no limit to how many spawn can be controlled, so you could amass an army. But again, this tends to be evil. (You might be beginning to see a pattern here).

how does bull str not stack with the bonuses gained from vop? those are perm bonuses as a special ability. I can see bull str and the bite line not stacking but I'm not sure I follow about bull str and the bonuses from vop not stacking.

[Yanisa]

what I think is going on is this. A level 7 druid can have a brown bear as a pet. the bear is an exalted bear meaning he has an int score of 3 he can take feats. the druid must have either taken a vop thus getting exalted companion as a bonus feat or taken the exalted companion feat. Monsters gain feats as there hd goes up. a level 7th druid who had natural bond could have a brown bear of 8 hd. Btw a black bear has 4 hd. If the brown bear has improved nat attack and vop it's possible the dm let him feat swap using the retrain rule in phb II. I had considered talking to my dm about a very similar matter.

So an exalted brown bear with 8 hd and vow of poverty would have Exalted strike +1 (magic) Sustenance AC bonus +6, deflection +1, Resistance +1, ability score enhancement +2, Natural armor +1, mind shielding plus a few bonus exalted feats. Once a vop is taken you get all the abilities retroactively except the exalted feats.

brown bear has a str of 27. So with the + enhancement to str that takes it to 29 then +1 for the animal companion level of 3 takes it to 30. This is my guess. though it's only a guess.

Yeah Natural Bond + Brown Bears do allow more feats... Still the only way it works is if the DM allowed retraining the base bear feats, which is not supported by rules and thus a home rule in favor of the druid.

BTW Black bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm) have 3 HD according the SRD. :smalltongue:

Also this doesn't solve the underlying problem of the druid being awesome, but if the DM also rules in favor of the druid that doesn't help with the unfair feeling.

[clericgirl]

Agreed with everyone else. Animate dead can make you extremely powerful and commanding hordes of undead dragons will give you power.

Another option, because it seems like you're going the for the CoDzilla route, is dipping Crusader

if I was neg charged then I would totally go the necro route. the dm has forbidden multi classing. So I'm trying to make the most of the situation. If his character is legit in what he's doing I have not prob with that. I'm a first time cleric so I have a lot to learn. I just want to be as useful.

[GreyBlack]

if I was neg charged then I would totally go the necro route. the dm has forbidden multi classing. So I'm trying to make the most of the situation. If his character is legit in what he's doing I have not prob with that. I'm a first time cleric so I have a lot to learn. I just want to be as useful.

Can you take PrCs? If you can, then take Contemplative. Extra domain, and grab the Time domain.

[shadowseve]

Yeah Natural Bond + Brown Bears do allow more feats... Still the only way it works is if the DM allowed retraining the base bear feats, which is not supported by rules and thus a home rule in favor of the druid.

BTW Black bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm) have 3 HD according the SRD. :smalltongue:

Also this doesn't solve the underlying problem of the druid being awesome, but if the DM also rules in favor of the druid that doesn't help with the unfair feeling.

You are right about the black bear. The point still stand about the brown bear.

I've never seen a ruling that you can't retrain the feats of an animal companion. though I def could be wrong.

if you could post a rule that states an animal companion couln't retrain feats. I would be very interested in it as that would shed a ton of light on the case.

[Yanisa]

if I was neg charged then I would totally go the necro route. the dm has forbidden multi classing. So I'm trying to make the most of the situation. If his character is legit in what he's doing I have not prob with that. I'm a first time cleric so I have a lot to learn. I just want to be as useful.

Well I do assume the character is legit. But it strikes me as unfair if the DM rules in favor of the druid, retraining his bear so the bear is more awesome, but at the same time limits you from multiclassing so that you can't become more awesome. Okay I am oversimplifying things here for my point, (ssst) but it seems you are limited in your options yet the druid seems unlimited in his options.

Besides that my general advice is to talk. Voice your complain, make sure the DM at least knows you feel less useful so he might build encounters you are good in, things with lots of undead far outside the forest where the druid feels safe, for example. Maybe also let the druid know he is overdoing it to. It isn't fun to be outshined but if no one knows then nothing changes. Trying to make a stronger character only leads to arms race and you don't want to make this too competitive.


You are right about the black bear. The point still stand about the brown bear.

I've never seen a ruling that you can't retrain the feats of an animal companion. though I def could be wrong.

Well the PBII gives options to retrain feats from characters, nothing talks about animal companions. So at best it's not written in the rules. So you always need to ask your DM if he allows it, so it can vary from DM to DM. At the other side ignoring PHII means no retraining rules and thus the bear is stuck with his default feats by RAW.

[clericgirl]

Can you take PrCs? If you can, then take Contemplative. Extra domain, and grab the Time domain.


I would love to go into contemplative for the third domain and take a level or two of crusader and maybe ruby knight vindicator, but alas it is not the case. The druid is willing to back off on power as he doesn't want to over shadow anyone. He's a nice guy and not a jerk. If he learns he is not correct in redoing the feats of the animal companion I'm sure he's redo his pet. he want to be legit.

[shadowseve]

Well I do assume the character is legit. But it strikes me as unfair if the DM rules in favor of the druid, retraining his bear so the bear is more awesome, but at the same time limits you from multiclassing so that you can't become more awesome. Okay I am oversimplifying things here for my point, (ssst) but it seems you are limited in your options yet the druid seems unlimited in his options.

Besides that my general advice is to talk. Voice your complain, make sure the DM at least knows you feel less useful so he might build encounters you are good in, things with lots of undead far outside the forest where the druid feels safe, for example. Maybe also let the druid know he is overdoing it to. It isn't fun to be outshined but if no one knows then nothing changes. Trying to make a stronger character only leads to arms race and you don't want to make this too competitive.



Well the PBII gives options to retrain feats from characters, nothing talks about animal companions. So at best it's not written in the rules. So you always need to ask your DM if he allows it, so it can vary from DM to DM. At the other side ignoring PHII means no retraining rules and thus the bear is stuck with his default feats by RAW.

It's a grey area I think. This is where someone like eggynack or other druid encyclopedia could shed some light on whether my perception is right. I'm a new druid myself so I could easly be wrong.

My understanding is that druids companions are pretty much treated like other characters with a few exceptions. there was discussion on this from cheetah that could apply here. I'll try to find the link.

[JeminiZero]

how does bull str not stack with the bonuses gained from vop? those are perm bonuses as a special ability. I can see bull str and the bite line not stacking but I'm not sure I follow about bull str and the bonuses from vop not stacking.

See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm).


Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Bull Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm) provides an enhancement bonus, as does VoP. So they do not stack. Only the highest applies.

[Spore]

My understanding is that druids companions are pretty much treated like other characters with a few exceptions. there was discussion on this from cheetah that could apply here. I'll try to find the link.

If you really go all rules lawyer on the druid companion then it's technically a class feature that grants control over a limited variety of creatures, not characters.

[Yanisa]

It's a grey area I think. This is where someone like eggynack or other druid encyclopedia could shed some light on whether my perception is right. I'm a new druid myself so I could easly be wrong.

My understanding is that druids companions are pretty much treated like other characters with a few exceptions. there was discussion on this from cheetah that could apply here. I'll try to find the link.

Well the hard rules state:


Animal Companion Basics

Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make the following changes.

Then it lists off all the things animal companions get. Bonus HD, Natural Armor Adjustment Str/Dex Adjustment, etc.

So then means your bear is the default monster manual bear and after it becomes an animal companion it gets modified by the druid. The basic stats are unmodified by the druid, which would include the starting feats. Also you also don't roll ability scores for your animal companion, or roll hit points, or change skill ranks, or change the +1 ability score he gets from leveling up, etc

And I agree it's a grey area, there are no hard rules about it in 3.5, so each DM gets to make their own ruling. But allowing to retrain feats does allow the animal companion to be better then expected.

Edit


If you really go all rules lawyer on the druid companion then it's technically a class feature that grants control over a limited variety of creatures, not characters.

Yeah, but that path leads to the discussion of if the animal companion is a PC or an NPC... and worse it leads to the rules that say you need to roll, EACH TURN, handle animal to control your animal.

[shadowseve]

If you really go all rules lawyer on the druid companion then it's technically a class feature that grants control over a limited variety of creatures, not characters.

then in that case in the strictest sense then you could not retrain the bear. only add onto the feats it already has which would make sense. So many different ways of interpreting the rules.

[shadowseve]

See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm).



Bull Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm) provides an enhancement bonus, as does VoP. So they do not stack. Only the highest applies.

thanks for the tip on that. I had always assumed since the vop bonuses would stack with the bite line as well with bull strength.

[GreyBlack]

Well failing all this, cheese is a recourse. DMM persist is good, but then persisting haste too is even better. Begin worshipping a different deity and take Time domain. Persist haste, Divine Power, and Freedom of Movement. True strike persist as well if allowed.

[Threadnaught]

Without the involvement of any house rules, the best your buddy can get within the rules is a Black Bear with.

Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast

Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (32 hp) (15-50)

Initiative: +2

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)

Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14

Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+8

Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+5)

Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+5) and bite +3 melee (1d6+2)

Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Smite Evil 1/day

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60, damage reduction 5/magic, link, low-light vision, evasion, resistance to acid, cold and electricity 5, scent, share spells, spell resistance 10

Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2

Abilities: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6 (+1 point to any Ability)

Skills: Climb +5, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +9 (+1 Skill Point)

Feats: Endurance, Run


Your DM seems to be favouring the Druid. There are so many house rules in the Druid's favour, first of all the Bear appears to count as a lower level Animal Companion than both the Bear's -3 listing and the Celestial Creature Template's -1 listing. Secondly, the Feats that the Druid gave the Bear, you haven't mentioned anything about retraining so I can only assume right now, that the Druid built the Bear from the ground up as if it were a Character, giving it Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty in place of the Feats it should have. If this is in fact happening, then I wonder if the bear's HD is a d10 instead of the d8 it should be and if Sacred Vow has been taken as Vow of Poverty's prerequisite.
Though I read about retraining Feats in PHB2 often, no idea how that works, but a Celestial Creature has PC Intelligence, they can retrain if retraining is allowed. I can't be bothered to edit in any retraining to the above stat block though. And I don't know how expensive retraining actually is either, so I have no idea whether any of this is legit.

They're not abusing Natural Bond to stack 3 Druid levels on top of every 3 Druid levels are they? A Character's effective Druid level for Animal Companions can't be higher than their HD. Meaning outside of house rules, the Druid shouldn't have an Animal Companion anywhere near the level of power you described. With House Rules however, I predict this monstrosity.

Size/Type: Large Magical Beast

Hit Dice: 12d10+48 (114 hp) (60-168)

Initiative: +3

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)

Armor Class: 33 (-1 size, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +8 exalted, +11 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 31

Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+21

Attack: Claw +22 melee (1d8+12)

Full Attack: 2 claws +22 melee (1d8+14) and bite +15 melee (2d6+8)

Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Smite Evil 1/day

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60, damage reduction 10/magic, devotion, endure elements, evasion, greater sustenance, link, low-light vision, mind shielding, multiattack, resistance to acid, cold and electricity 10, scent, share spells, spell resistance 22

Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +6

Abilities: Str 34, Dex 18, Con 19, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6 (+2 point to any Abilities)

Skills: Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +14 (+6 Skill Points)

Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, Vow of Poverty (+8 Feats)


Wow, that thing is a monster. I kinda want to see if I can get this sort of thing past a DM and destroy everything.


It's a grey area I think. This is where someone like eggynack or other druid encyclopedia could shed some light on whether my perception is right. I'm a new druid myself so I could easly be wrong.

Usually Animal Companions have 2 Intelligence and are just Animals who have magically bonded to a Druid and become physically stronger because of this bond. A Celestial Creature gained from Exalted Companion however, has 3 Intelligence, this is PC level Intelligence, this Animal Companion is as smart as some people. If people can retrain with 3 Intelligence, there's no reason an Animal Companion couldn't also do so.


Though I'd personally wait for confirmation from eggynack, as I know very little about retraining and Druids themselves.

[HammeredWharf]

Persisting True Strike is a pretty bad idea, as it still ends on your next strike.

I'd persist Recitation, Divine Power and something else, like maybe Lesser Holy Transformation. Keep in mind that while a Druid's Girallon's Blessing routine can be really strong, the hits don't do that much damage by themselves and the whole thing breaks apart if you encounter a monster with DR. Also, the bear can't fly. Even so, levels 6-12 are when Druids are at their best and the strongest T1 class IMO, so you'll have a hard time competing with your buddy. However, you'll catch up and should never be useless.

[Deaxsa]

OMG, nightsticks stack?

If i were you I'd go RKV and DMM QUICKEN. that way, you can nova as long as you have nightsticks, both to buff AND debuff, as it becomes much more powerful for offensive spells. Also, all-day buffs are cool, but dispel magic becomes your worst enemy, as you'd have to re-buff every time you get hit, and eat up more and more turn uses. With quicken, on the other hand, you never need to worry about planning: you always have whatever buffs you want within a turn.

/my2cents

[HammeredWharf]

Dispel isn't a problem as long as you're wearing a Ring of Counterspells or two. In that case, you'll probably lose your buffs only if the DM actively goes after you, but in that case you're screwed anyway.

[shadowseve]

Without the involvement of any house rules, the best your buddy can get within the rules is a Black Bear with.

Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast

Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (32 hp) (15-50)

Initiative: +2

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)

Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14

Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+8

Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+5)

Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+5) and bite +3 melee (1d6+2)

Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Smite Evil 1/day

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60, damage reduction 5/magic, link, low-light vision, evasion, resistance to acid, cold and electricity 5, scent, share spells, spell resistance 10

Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2

Abilities: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6 (+1 point to any Ability)

Skills: Climb +5, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +9 (+1 Skill Point)

Feats: Endurance, Run


Your DM seems to be favouring the Druid. There are so many house rules in the Druid's favour, first of all the Bear appears to count as a lower level Animal Companion than both the Bear's -3 listing and the Celestial Creature Template's -1 listing. Secondly, the Feats that the Druid gave the Bear, you haven't mentioned anything about retraining so I can only assume right now, that the Druid built the Bear from the ground up as if it were a Character, giving it Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty in place of the Feats it should have. If this is in fact happening, then I wonder if the bear's HD is a d10 instead of the d8 it should be and if Sacred Vow has been taken as Vow of Poverty's prerequisite.
Though I read about retraining Feats in PHB2 often, no idea how that works, but a Celestial Creature has PC Intelligence, they can retrain if retraining is allowed. I can't be bothered to edit in any retraining to the above stat block though. And I don't know how expensive retraining actually is either, so I have no idea whether any of this is legit.

They're not abusing Natural Bond to stack 3 Druid levels on top of every 3 Druid levels are they? A Character's effective Druid level for Animal Companions can't be higher than their HD. Meaning outside of house rules, the Druid shouldn't have an Animal Companion anywhere near the level of power you described. With House Rules however, I predict this monstrosity.

Size/Type: Large Magical Beast

Hit Dice: 12d10+48 (114 hp) (60-168)

Initiative: +3

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)

Armor Class: 33 (-1 size, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +8 exalted, +11 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 31

Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+21

Attack: Claw +22 melee (1d8+12)

Full Attack: 2 claws +22 melee (1d8+14) and bite +15 melee (2d6+8)

Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Smite Evil 1/day

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60, damage reduction 10/magic, devotion, endure elements, evasion, greater sustenance, link, low-light vision, mind shielding, multiattack, resistance to acid, cold and electricity 10, scent, share spells, spell resistance 22

Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +6

Abilities: Str 34, Dex 18, Con 19, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6 (+2 point to any Abilities)

Skills: Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +14 (+6 Skill Points)

Feats: Endurance, Run, Track, Vow of Poverty (+8 Feats)


Wow, that thing is a monster. I kinda want to see if I can get this sort of thing past a DM and destroy everything.



Usually Animal Companions have 2 Intelligence and are just Animals who have magically bonded to a Druid and become physically stronger because of this bond. A Celestial Creature gained from Exalted Companion however, has 3 Intelligence, this is PC level Intelligence, this Animal Companion is as smart as some people. If people can retrain with 3 Intelligence, there's no reason an Animal Companion couldn't also do so.


Though I'd personally wait for confirmation from eggynack, as I know very little about retraining and Druids themselves.

At level 7 a player can take a brown bear as a companion. the post mentioned that the druid had a brown bear, hint the Alaskan Kodiak bear. the bear was exalted. It looks like to me that retraining was allowed and the bear was retrained and given improv nat attack sacred vow and vop. A celestian bear does have an int of three.

A brown bear gets a str of 27 to start but takes a -6 on it's companion level. Natural bond eases that by giving a +3 back to your companion level. the bear then would get an extra 2hd of hit die +1 str. If retraining was allowed that would give the bear a nice set of bonuses. +2 to str from vop and a ton of armor bonuses and such. It's not hard to see the numbers from that. the bear would have a 30 str. I think the dm allowed bull str and vop to stack, which up until recently I thought that was allowed as well.

So lets take a look at this scenerio. From my understanding an animal companions bab increases with a hit die, same as a normal monster in the monster's manual. If you follow the progression of the bears you realize their bab is based on the same as the clerics, and druids bab. Thus a brown bear with 2 extra hd would have a bab of 6. with a bab of 6 and plus 10 str bonus the bear gets a plus 16 to hit and a plus 10 to claw damage. if bull str stacks with vop and improved nat weapons are allowd then your looking at this with girallon's blessing this is also included in sanctify martial strike +1 from vop bonus.

Full attack 2 claws +19 (2d6 +13) + rake +19 (4d6 +19 assuming two claws hit) +2 claws +14 (2d6 +13) +1 bite +14( 2d6+ 8) This is assuming my math is correct, which I just woke up so it might not be.

this is all assuming retraining is allowed.

Edit on the hous'raul bear, if retraining was allowd a lv 6 bear gets three feats so those feats would be impr nat attack, sacred vow, vop. Not including vop feats. which are not many as the feats aren't retro active.

[shadowseve]

OMG, nightsticks stack?

If i were you I'd go RKV and DMM QUICKEN. that way, you can nova as long as you have nightsticks, both to buff AND debuff, as it becomes much more powerful for offensive spells. Also, all-day buffs are cool, but dispel magic becomes your worst enemy, as you'd have to re-buff every time you get hit, and eat up more and more turn uses. With quicken, on the other hand, you never need to worry about planning: you always have whatever buffs you want within a turn.

/my2cents

I think the cleric wanted to go cleric/crusader/ ruby knight vindicator but her dm dude doesn't allow multiclassing for some reason.

[Morphie]

What about the rest of the party, what are they playing and what do they think about this power struggle?

[clericgirl]

What about the rest of the party, what are they playing and what do they think about this power struggle?

The druid doesn't mind toning down if it causes issues. He saw this thread and like shadowseve, seems to want to make sure he's completely legit and not fudging the system in anyway. There is a rogue and a fighter and sorc in the party so they're already underwhelmed even by me.

[Vogonjeltz]

ok so I'm a lv 7 going as a DMM melee cleric. Our dm has decided that night sticks stack, however; in order to prevent me from "stick" abuse he limited me to two nightsticks that renew each day. So my domains are planning and undeath. I'm wielding a +2 large fire and keen great sword. I have Strongarm Bracers, a Reliquary Holy Symbol and I'm wearing a Mithral Spiked Full Plate of Speed. So I'm not underpowered at my level, at least I don't think, at all. I can persist 3 spells per day with the extra turning, charisma, night sticks and such. I usually run Divine power, Luminous armor greater, and divine favor.

However; how can I compete with our druid? His celestial/exalted Alaskan Kodiak bear walks into battle with 4 arms (Girallon’s Blessing I think), his mouth, luminous armor, bull str and eats everything. His bear has as much hp as I do and does more damage. The bear has apparently taken a vop(how does that work?) and with his str bonus from vop + his animal companion levels has a 30 str ( not including bull str). Also since the bear as improved nat attack(claws) as one of his feats he's hitting like a freight train. Then there are his summons. His HUGE ass croc, or several dire wolves, comes out the first round; his large giant croc has more hp than me. Then more smaller crocs come the second round and just about everything enemy is shut down, or eaten. The druid slings what remaining spells he has as damage, or he spits and blinds them or wraps them in kelp while flying nicely out of danger.

I don't mean to sound ungrateful for an awesome character but damn! I feel like I should sit and say hey dude, I'll buff yah if needed or maybe toss a heal or two if not I'll be over here sleeping.

How can I compete with that at this level?

It's a cooperative game, not competitive. That being said, the summons and companion get hard countered by dispel magic, any protection spell (because those animals are all neutral), and for the companion anything targeting will. So, prismatic spray will pretty well take that companion out permanently.

It's not up to you to challenge or humble your teammates. That is up to the DM.

[clericgirl]

A few people mentioned this eggynack dude as a druid expert so I hope he pops in to see if shadowseve's calculations are correct or if there is some fudging going on.

[shadowseve]

A few people mentioned this eggynack dude as a druid expert so I hope he pops in to see if shadowseve's calculations are correct or if there is some fudging going on.

I wouldn't fully count on my math. Eggy has corrected me on several occasions.

I'm sure eggynack will pop in at some point. He seems to find his way in druid posts eventually to help.

[eggynack]

A few people mentioned this eggynack dude as a druid expert so I hope he pops in to see if shadowseve's calculations are correct or if there is some fudging going on.
Pretty sure this is a thing that I thought checked out, and PM'd about to that effect. I think that was only in relation to the exalted companion+VoP thing though, so I don't know if all the particular calculations check out. For example, this was mentioned as working at seventh level, while you'd actually need to wait until 8th, because getting a celestial companion imposes a -1 penalty to effective druid level.

Overall, however, I'm not entirely sure what calculations I'm checking for fudging on. I suspect, apart from the issues mentioned, the effective druid level and enhancement bonus to strength thing, that the calculations check out. The one thing that could cause some oddities is the timing on VoP, because that would determine how many exalted feats the druid gets. Probably not the biggest deal, because there aren't that many worthwhile exalted feats to work with on a bear. You get touch of golden ice, and sanctify natural attack, and the rest tends to be pretty low impact.

Edit:


So then means your bear is the default monster manual bear and after it becomes an animal companion it gets modified by the druid. The basic stats are unmodified by the druid, which would include the starting feats. Also you also don't roll ability scores for your animal companion, or roll hit points, or change skill ranks, or change the +1 ability score he gets from leveling up, etc

I don't think this argument holds up. You couldn't possibly have the bear approach you and then be modified, because, "When choosing an animal companion, you may choose a magical beast as shown on the table below." That presumably means that you're selecting some celestial bear that's out in the wild or something. Thus, the bear would be able to make decisions informed by that factor.

[shadowseve]

Pretty sure this is a thing that I thought checked out, and PM'd about to that effect. I think that was only in relation to the exalted companion+VoP thing though, so I don't know if all the particular calculations check out. For example, this was mentioned as working at seventh level, while you'd actually need to wait until 8th, because getting a celestial companion imposes a -1 penalty to effective druid level.

Overall, however, I'm not entirely sure what calculations I'm checking for fudging on. I suspect, apart from the issues mentioned, the effective druid level and enhancement bonus to strength thing, that the calculations check out. The one thing that could cause some oddities is the timing on VoP, because that would determine how many exalted feats the druid gets. Probably not the biggest deal, because there aren't that many worthwhile exalted feats to work with on a bear. You get touch of golden ice, and sanctify natural attack, and the rest tends to be pretty low impact.

yeah we did talk about that, I didn't want to bring up that conversation with out you piping in just in case I miss interpreted something. I did forget about the -1 for celestial companion. You did find something I miss calculated. LOL. Then in that case the bear would be a little weaker but not by a whole lot.

I think one of the main questions was the retraining of the animal companion and whether it was legit. That and whether bull str stacked with vop. That is more my question though. I know they both say "enhancement" but I was under the impression sense that the vop bonus was perm due to the feat it would still stack.

[eggynack]

yeah we did talk about that, I didn't want to bring up that conversation with out you piping in just in case I miss interpreted something. I did forget about the -1 for celestial companion. You did find something I miss calculated. LOL. Then in that case the bear would be a little weaker but not by a whole lot.
It's a pretty big difference. I'm pretty sure that'd shunt you down to a celestial black bear, or a standard brown bear, until you hit level 8.


That and whether bull str stacked with vop. That is more my question though. I know they both say "enhancement" but I was under the impression sense that the vop bonus was perm due to the feat it would still stack.
Whether the bonus is permanent or not has no bearing on whether it stacks. Thus, as the two bonuses are of the same type, they do not stack.

[shadowseve]

It's a pretty big difference. I'm pretty sure that'd shunt you down to a celestial black bear, or a standard brown bear, until you hit level 8.


Whether the bonus is permanent or not has no bearing on whether it stacks. Thus, as the two bonuses are of the same type, they do not stack.

yep it would be a celestial black bear. So then technically non of the bite, like bite of the were bear, lines would work then as well would they?

[eggynack]

yep it would be a celestial black bear. So then technically non of the bite lines would work then as well. would they.
Well, they would, but not as well. If the bonus from the particular spell is greater than that from vow of poverty, then the spell's bonus temporarily overwrites the vow's bonus, and there are effects of the bite spells that have nothing to do with enhancement bonuses. These spells do things, but they'd do less, because some of the bonus overlaps.

[shadowseve]

Well, they would, but not as well. If the bonus from the particular spell is greater than that from vow of poverty, then the spell's bonus temporarily overwrites the vow's bonus, and there are effects of the bite spells that have nothing to do with enhancement bonuses. These spells do things, but they'd do less, because some of the bonus overlaps.

makes sense. so many rules to keep up with... so many exceptions. so many little disclaimers.

[clericgirl]

So shadowseve's calculations are way off and there is no way that bear could be that strong. Nor could the bear take and swap feats. That is good to know. I'll have to tell our dm and get the druid nerfed. Thanks everyone.

[eggynack]

So shadowseve's calculations are way off and there is no way that bear could be that strong. Nor could the bear take and swap feats. That is good to know. I'll have to tell our dm and get the druid nerfed. Thanks everyone.
That's not really the conclusion I would draw. You're literally exactly one level away from the bear's calculations being pretty much accurate, and I think that the bear would be capable of feat swapping. It's intelligent, after all, and it's reasonable to assume some level of initial feat selection, though it's an issue up to adjudication. I suppose there's no way the bear could be that strong, but unless you're planning some odd power boost at 8th level, I suspect the problem will just return in full force within a level. I mean, it's not like the black bear is going to be all that weak. We're talking a bear that, at level 7, is running 7 HD, and a reasonably sized mass of boosted abilities.

[shadowseve]

So shadowseve's calculations are way off and there is no way that bear could be that strong. Nor could the bear take and swap feats. That is good to know. I'll have to tell our dm and get the druid nerfed. Thanks everyone.


the two miscalculations I didn't account for was that little text in BOED that mentioned a minus 1 for a druid to take an exalted companion (the text is smaller and it's easily overlooked.) and I was under the impression that bull strength stacked with the bonuses for vop. Eggynack and others was courteous enough to correct me on that.

Take those away and even with improved nat attack and the bonuses from vop that bear is still going to be a Juggernaut. Just not as strong as the other druid in question and I had originally thought which is fine.

taking bull str away is simply taking a+2 to hit and +2 to damage away which in the grand scheme of things is not that big of a deal.

[TuggyNE]

It's a cooperative game, not competitive. That being said, the summons and companion get hard countered by dispel magic, any protection spell (because those animals are all neutral), and for the companion anything targeting will. So, prismatic spray will pretty well take that companion out permanently.

Dispel magic seldom "hard counters" anything, since an equal-level caster will have about a 50% chance of dispelling any given spell. It certainly does not hard counter the animal companion itself, since the companion and its VoP are not spell effects, and only protection from evil will block the summons (check the exact wording of the other three) and no protection spell will block the companion at all.

[clericgirl]

It's a pretty big difference. I'm pretty sure that'd shunt you down to a celestial black bear, or a standard brown bear, until you hit level 8.


Whether the bonus is permanent or not has no bearing on whether it stacks. Thus, as the two bonuses are of the same type, they do not stack.

so if two spells giving strength bonuses don't stack how does divine power and righteous might stack? those two seem to be a staple of DMM melee clerics.

[eggynack]

so if two spells giving strength bonuses don't stack how does divine power and righteous might stack? those two seem to be a staple of DMM melee clerics.
Two spells giving the same type of strength bonus do not stack. However, divine power grants an enhancement bonus to strength, while righteous might grants a size bonus to strength. Thus, you are in the clear.

[Sir Chuckles]

so if two spells giving strength bonuses don't stack how does divine power and righteous might stack? those two seem to be a staple of DMM melee clerics.

It's not two spells, per se, but two same-type bonuses.

Divine Power gives a +6 enhancement bonus (as well as the BaB of a Fighter), and Righteous Might gives a +4 size bonus. They are not the same type of bonus.

Edit: Eggynack'd.

[Yanisa]

I don't think this argument holds up. You couldn't possibly have the bear approach you and then be modified, because, "When choosing an animal companion, you may choose a magical beast as shown on the table below." That presumably means that you're selecting some celestial bear that's out in the wild or something. Thus, the bear would be able to make decisions informed by that factor.
Meh, I disagree. The rules allude to having you a default monster manual critter and don't imply feat choice, or skill choice, or any choice until after it becomes a animal companion. All monsters in DnD have the same skill choice and feats and rebuilding feats is in he DMs realm. It doesn't matter whether the critter is smart or not all Red Dragons have the same feats too unless the DM decides otherwise. But we can disagree on that, it is not relevant to my main point.

Still, you do agree there is nothing in the books that strictly allow retraining or feat selection. Likewise nothing prevents it either. So it's untouched by the rule books and thus a DM choice. Whether that feat selection happened due retraining rules or due the bear being smart enough to select its own feat, I don't care. It is and will always be a DM choice if he allows retraining/reswapping of base feats. And if a DM allows that, you most likely get stronger/more optimized animals companions, so it should be in line with the party.

[eggynack]

Meh, I disagree. The rules allude to having you a default monster manual critter and don't imply feat choice, or skill choice, or any choice until after it becomes a animal companion. All monsters in DnD have the same skill choice and feats and rebuilding feats is in he DMs realm. It doesn't matter whether the critter is smart or not all Red Dragons have the same feats too unless the DM decides otherwise. But we can disagree on that, it is not relevant to my main point.
I think my main issue with your point is the idea that you call up a black bear, and then the template is applied. The animal companion ability can say whatever it wants, but once exalted companion enters the picture, the list of creatures you can call that are ordinary for their type include celestial brown bears. It's a bit of a semantic quibble, but I think it's an accurate one.


Still, you do agree there is nothing in the books that strictly allow retraining or feat selection. Likewise nothing prevents it either. So it's untouched by the rule books and thus a DM choice. Whether that feat selection happened due retraining rules or due the bear being smart enough to select its own feat, I don't care. It is and will always be a DM choice if he allows retraining/reswapping of base feats. And if a DM allows that, you most likely get stronger/more optimized animals companions, so it should be in line with the party.
Well, the retraining rules kinda do allow it. The only issue is whether you can impose your optimization on the animal companion, and I can't see a reason you wouldn't be able to, given its intelligence. Something as simple as a, "Hey man, as long as running items isn't that great for you anyway, why not forsake all material goods," followed by the bear saying, "Well, that's not really the reason I'd do it, for I am a bear who seeks not the powerful things, but anything to further fulfill that which is holy sounds good enough to me," would probably work out.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, his animal companion has to take the feats printed for its starting hit dice, the druid can only pick what extra feats it gains for its additional hit dice beyond what every bear of that type has. It gets a feat for every three hit dice just like characters do, so it would need to have at least seven extra hit dice for him to have given it Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Improved Natural Attack. So the feats it has are most likely not legit. The Druid's Animal Companion class feature specifically states that it's "...completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table." Also note that the animal companion does not increase in size from those extra HD, it only increases in size from normal advancement which the animal companion benefits are not. If some of its incredibly high stats are from an increase from medium to large size, then this is also not legit in the slightest bit. Chances are most of this animal companion's capability is due to breaking the rules.

For your character, do the following:
1. Retrain per PHB2 chapter 8 to switch your Cleric Turn Undead ability to the Rebuke Dragons ACF in Dragon Magic. This can still be used to power divine feats such as DMM. Retrain your Cleric levels to Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) and trade the free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion in CC. Retrain your most recent class level to Master of Radiance in LM, so you'll be a Cleric 6/ Master of Radiance 1. This gives you back the ability to Turn Undead, so your Extra Turning, Night Sticks, and Reliquary Holy Symbol will add additional uses to both your Turn Undead ability and your Rebuke Dragons ability, giving you double the number of daily uses and double the number of persistent spells each day. Also retrain one of your domains to the Spell domain. If you spent a feat to be able to use a Greatsword, retrain that as well because it's a waste, see 4. below.

2. Get at least two Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend. Get rid of your armor and get a Monk's Belt, which adds your Wisdom bonus to your AC. Greater Luminous Armor doesn't stack with armor you wear, so there's no reason to have both. Get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed, DMG pricing puts it at 9,000 gp total, and you can use the Bead of Karma before casting your daily buffs. Get a 3rd level Pearl of Power.

3. Your buffs should be as follows: Anyspell for Wraithstrike + DMM: Persistent; Pearl of Power for Anyspell for Shield + DMM: Persistent; Lesser Rod of Extended Luminous Armor unless you can have Greater Luminous Armor all day; Lesser Rod of Extended Magic Vestment on both the Shield and Luminous Armor, it adds an Enhancement bonus to an existing armor or shield bonus; DMM: Persistent Elation (BoED); DMM: Persistent Divine Power; DMM: Persistent Nightshield (SC) or just Greater Resistance (SC); DMM: Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor (SC); DMM: Persistent Divine Favor if you have enough uses left. Remember you'll be using the Bead of Karma for +4 caster level before casting any of these, so they'll all be at a caster level of 11 at your current level.

4. Get a +1 Seeking Club, apply Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) to it so its passage of time is 365 times slower and spells last 365 times longer on it. Cast Lesser Rod of Extended Spikes (SC) on it every day, it lasts 73 minutes/level on that item so with the Bead of Karma active it lasts a little over 13 hours at your current level. Since a club can be used as a ranged weapon it will benefit from Seeking regardless of whether it's making melee or ranged attacks. Get rid of your Strongarm Bracers, and wear Armbands of Might instead. Take Power Attack and always take the highest penalty possible since you'll be making touch attacks with Persistent Wraithstrike.

5. Later on your Persistent buffs should include Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Holy Star at least once, and Stormrage. With Contemplative pick up the Destiny domain at level 16 and at level 17 you can have Persistent Choose Destiny.

[lunar2]

1. bull's strength does not stack with VOP.

2. creature and character are interchangeable terms. all creatures are characters, and all characters are creatures. the PHB 2 retraining rules don't specify PCs, so any character can use them.

3. you are an exalted cleric. why do you have the undeath domain? several of the spells it gives you are evil, meaning you can't cast them at all. and the granted power isn't that great. next time you level up, retrain this domain for something better.

4. luminous armor is an armor bonus to AC. it doesn't stack with your actual full plate, so why are you wasting spell slots, strength, and turn undead uses to cast and persist it? pick a better spell.

5. other than fine tuning your spell selection, and changing to a better domain, i don't know what to tell you. druids are just better at combat than clerics. you can boost your own performance to be closer to his own, but you'll never match it unless he tones it down.

[clericgirl]

1. bull's strength does not stack with VOP.

2. creature and character are interchangeable terms. all creatures are characters, and all characters are creatures. the PHB 2 retraining rules don't specify PCs, so any character can use them.

3. you are an exalted cleric. why do you have the undeath domain? several of the spells it gives you are evil, meaning you can't cast them at all. and the granted power isn't that great. next time you level up, retrain this domain for something better.

4. luminous armor is an armor bonus to AC. it doesn't stack with your actual full plate, so why are you wasting spell slots, strength, and turn undead uses to cast and persist it? pick a better spell.

5. other than fine tuning your spell selection, and changing to a better domain, i don't know what to tell you. druids are just better at combat than clerics. you can boost your own performance to be closer to his own, but you'll never match it unless he tones it down.

we already established that bull str doesn't stack with vop. Shadowseve was corrected on that several times and I'm going to pass it to our dm and druid.

I'm a CG cleric, not really exalted though I did take luminous armor cause I thought it stacked I'll remove it and use something better. Undeath domain isn't necessarily evil itself. If a domain spell is evil I'll pick from the planning domain. I picked undeath for the free extra turning feat and planning for extend spell. I figured both would help in getting more turning so I can persist more spells.

[Yanisa]

I think my main issue with your point is the idea that you call up a black bear, and then the template is applied. The animal companion ability can say whatever it wants, but once exalted companion enters the picture, the list of creatures you can call that are ordinary for their type include celestial brown bears. It's a bit of a semantic quibble, but I think it's an accurate one.

Does the template change feats, modify existing onces or anything like that? Does thea template have a line "the creature is now smarter and selects different feat then the default creature"? As far as I see all celestial black bears have the same feats as normal black bears, unless the DM allows otherwise. And yes it is semantic quibble, and quite unrealistic at that. To expect all creatures of the same species to be precise copies of themselves even when applying templates. But that is how DnD rules work. I don't see why it being celestial suddenly allows for easier feat swapping according the rules. From a role play stand I do understand. (And PoV makes sense for celestial being)



Well, the retraining rules kinda do allow it. The only issue is whether you can impose your optimization on the animal companion, and I can't see a reason you wouldn't be able to, given its intelligence. Something as simple as a, "Hey man, as long as running items isn't that great for you anyway, why not forsake all material goods," followed by the bear saying, "Well, that's not really the reason I'd do it, for I am a bear who seeks not the powerful things, but anything to further fulfill that which is holy sounds good enough to me," would probably work out.

The retraining rules barely say anything, but all given examples are PC character with class levels. Nothing to allow or disallow animal companions. As for optimation, that changes from group to group. I wouldn't allow it in my current group due the fact we got a newbie with no real sense of power, but a druid player that tries to powerplay. I don't want to bear to outshine the barbarian. But again that varies from group to group, if I had all vetern players that wanted a high power campaign I would allow it. But that something to consider for the DM, and thats my entire point. Feat swapping is a DM choice, not something in the rules.

And once you end up with a celestial vow of poverty black belt bear with four arms and a machine gun mounted on its back with a bite that destroys rocks you do reach that point of high optimazation feat swapping allows, to the point that the DMM persist cleric feels outshadowed. :smalltongue:

P.S. my english sucks atm, sorry for the horrible spellings.

[LordBlades]

It's a cooperative game, not competitive. That being said, the summons and companion get hard countered by dispel magic, any protection spell (because those animals are all neutral), and for the companion anything targeting will. So, prismatic spray will pretty well take that companion out permanently.

It's not up to you to challenge or humble your teammates. That is up to the DM.

While D&D is a cooperative game, you're still competing in a sense with the rest of the party for spotlight time and contribution. If a single character does most of the work on a regular basis encounters are still overcome, story still progresses but it's not very fun for most people involved.

[eggynack]

Does the template change feats, modify existing onces or anything like that? Does thea template have a line "the creature is now smarter and selects different feat then the default creature"? As far as I see all celestial black bears have the same feats as normal black bears, unless the DM allows otherwise. And yes it is semantic quibble, and quite unrealistic at that. To expect all creatures of the same species to be precise copies of themselves even when applying templates. But that is how DnD rules work. I don't see why it being celestial suddenly allows for easier feat swapping according the rules. From a role play stand I do understand. (And PoV makes sense for celestial being)
That's not really the point I was making. I'm just saying that the assertion that exalted companion makes regular bears into celestial bears, and only when the bear comes to you, is a mistaken one. In any case, this, more than the retraining plan, is something that would require some degree of DM adjudication. There's little precise definition for what "completely typical for its kind" means, and there is some leave to customize monster feats given in the books, after all.


The retraining rules barely say anything, but all given examples are PC character with class levels. Nothing to allow or disallow animal companions. As for optimation, that changes from group to group. I wouldn't allow it in my current group due the fact we got a newbie with no real sense of power, but a druid player that tries to powerplay. I don't want to bear to outshine the barbarian. But again that varies from group to group, if I had all vetern players that wanted a high power campaign I would allow it. But that something to consider for the DM, and thats my entire point. Feat swapping is a DM choice, not something in the rules.

And once you end up with a celestial vow of poverty black belt bear with four arms and a machine gun mounted on its back with a bite that destroys rocks you do reach that point of high optimazation feat swapping allows, to the point that the DMM persist cleric feels outshadowed. :smalltongue:
I don't really care all that much about what the examples look like, or how out-shined various characters are, though I should probably care more about the latter, as it's the main topic of the thread. Feat swapping is something in the rules. They're right there, in the PHB II, and there's nothing stopping the animal companion from making use of them apart from differing goals on the part of the animal companion. If the animal companion is cool with retraining for the feat, then this is a fair maneuver, without much room for DM interference apart from standard rule zero stuff, and the possibility that the DM has the animal companion not agree to the retraining.

[shadowseve]

This is exactly why I popped in this thread. I have a crusader in my party as well as a cleric. I had toyed around with feat swapping and had actually pm'd eggynack on this very subject. Now after reading this I may not due to way overshadowing the crusader and cleric. I wouldn't want anyone feeling about me like this cleric feels about her druid.

[shadowseve]

They're right there, in the PHB II, and there's nothing stopping the animal companion from making use of them apart from differing goals on the part of the animal companion. If the animal companion is cool with retraining for the feat, then this is a fair maneuver, without much room for DM interference apart from standard rule zero stuff, and the possibility that the DM has the animal companion not agree to the retraining.

interestingly enough my dm gives me complete control over my bear and what it "wants" to do.

[Yanisa]

That's not really the point I was making. I'm just saying that the assertion that exalted companion makes regular bears into celestial bears, and only when the bear comes to you, is a mistaken one. In any case, this, more than the retraining plan, is something that would require some degree of DM adjudication. There's little precise definition for what "completely typical for its kind" means, and there is some leave to customize monster feats given in the books, after all.


And all that customizing falls in the realm of the DM, not the player.



I don't really care all that much about what the examples look like, or how out-shined various characters are, though I should probably care more about the latter, as it's the main topic of the thread. Feat swapping is something in the rules. They're right there, in the PHB II, and there's nothing stopping the animal companion from making use of them apart from differing goals on the part of the animal companion. If the animal companion is cool with retraining for the feat, then this is a fair maneuver, without much room for DM interference apart from standard rule zero stuff, and the possibility that the DM has the animal companion not agree to the retraining.

And no, feat swapping for animal companions is not the rules. There isn't a single line in the PB II that allows it. If you take the vague meaning of character it might apply to animal companions, but that's not the intend I get from the retraining rules. I think the possibility of retraining animal companion was something they did not realize or consider, hence it is unnamed.

But I don't think we will agree. I feel feat swapping is a powerful move that should be taken in careful considaration because druids are already a powerful class and allowing them to do even more customizing leads to even easier powerplay. And because feat retraining is not named for druid animal companions, it shouldn't be defaulted to allow it, but defaulted to disallow it. The wording of the animal companion in the druid discription also hint to this, but that is also vague at best. And because it is vague I say its a DM choice, rather then something that is allowed by RAW.


interestingly enough my dm gives me complete control over my bear and what it "wants" to do.

Two words: Handle Animal.

But that is a nasty move even I wouldn't do to my players. But that is more RAW then retraining feats. :smalltongue:

[shadowseve]

And all that customizing falls in the realm of the DM, not the player.




And no, feat swapping for animal companions is not the rules. There isn't a single line in the PB II that allows it. If you take the vague meaning of character it might apply to animal companions, but that's not the intend I get from the retraining rules. I think the possibility of retraining animal companion was something they did not realize or consider, hence it is unnamed.

But I don't think we will agree. I feel feat swapping is a powerful move that should be taken in careful considaration because druids are already a powerful class and allowing them to do even more customizing leads to even easier powerplay. And because feat retraining is not named for druid animal companions, it shouldn't be defaulted to allow it, but defaulted to disallow it. The wording of the animal companion in the druid discription also hint to this, but that is also vague at best. And because it is vague I say its a DM choice, rather then something that is allowed by RAW.



Two words: Handle Animal.

But that is a nasty move even I wouldn't do to my players. But that is more RAW then retraining feats. :smalltongue:

yeah we talked about handle animal for my animal companion, and even though it's def RAW it's easier to say that my bear loves me and it likes to please me and do what I want. works for us.

[eggynack]

And no, feat swapping for animal companions is not the rules. There isn't a single line in the PB II that allows it. If you take the vague meaning of character it might apply to animal companions, but that's not the intend I get from the retraining rules. I think the possibility of retraining animal companion was something they did not realize or consider, hence it is unnamed.

Intent is irrelevant. As is mentioned in the PHB glossary, character and creature are used interchangeably, and the definition given to character there applies to animal companions. There are thus many lines that allow this. You can't use what you want to be so, and what you think people who designed the game wanted, as a substitute for what is.

[Yanisa]

yeah we talked about handle animal for my animal companion, and even though it's def RAW it's easier to say that my bear loves me and it likes to please me and do what I want. works for us.

Yeah most DM do that, including me. And somewhere around level 10 you reach that point that even rolling a 1 results in a succes, so the rule becomes obselete. Also with the celestial bear here, it has a int 3 so it has humanlike smartness, so handle animal does not apply to this discussion. But it is one of those infamous ignored rules in DnD staring druids in the face, fearful of a harsh DM. :smalltongue:


Intent is irrelevant. As is mentioned in the PHB glossary, character and creature are used interchangeably, and the definition given to character there applies to animal companions. There are thus many lines that allow this. You can't use what you want to be so, and what you think people who designed the game wanted, as a substitute for what is.

Yeah, because each time the word "character" is used, you can substitute it for "bear". :smalltongue: (Because Animal Companions are Creatures, and Bears are Animal Companions.)

I am deeply sorry for using the word intend though, I should have sticked with the original "all examples are of class levels, nothing alludes to different things to retraining feats due class levels" but whatever we can argue all day without convincing eachother.

[shadowseve]

Yeah most DM do that, including me. And somewhere around level 10 you reach that point that even rolling a 1 results in a succes, so the rule becomes obselete. Also with the celestial bear here, it has a int 3 so it has humanlike smartness, so handle animal does not apply to this discussion. But it is one of those infamous ignored rules in DnD staring druids in the face, fearful of a harsh DM. :smalltongue:

also one of the benefits of the 3 int is the lack of need for teaching tricks. Imo just better to be a good druid than an evil one. :smallbiggrin:

[Sir Chuckles]

also one of the benefits of the 3 int is the lack of need for teaching tricks. Imo just better to be a good druid than an evil one. :smallbiggrin:

But a good Druid can't be a Blighter!

[shadowseve]

I will have to say one of the most annoying parts of dnd that can break immersion is all the different ways rules can be interpreted. this stacks vs this doesn't stack. So much to keep up with I feel like I'm in math class sometimes:smalltongue: Me I love the idea of being able to customize your pet, however it does REALLY beef them up. the calculations I gave earlier, while off a little, presents a very beefy celestial brown bear. take that animal companion up to dire bear or especially dire polar bear (if you can even tame one of those) and you're talking about serious muscle. So I can see the clerics concern.


though I've heard of many clerics breaking the action economy vs endless nightsticks and prestiging into ruby knight vindicator.

[eggynack]

Yeah, because each time the word "character" is used, you can substitute it for "bear". :smalltongue: (Because Animal Companions are Creatures, and Bears are Animal Companions.)
Well, you can't, technically, because bears are merely subsets of animal companion possibilities, and because celestial bears are subsets of characters, rather than all characters, but that is more than sufficient for these purposes.


I am deeply sorry for using the word intend though, I should have sticked with the original "all examples are of class levels, nothing alludes to different things to retraining feats due class levels" but whatever we can argue all day without convincing eachother.
Again, irrelevant. These examples have no impact on the rules. You are using inductive reasoning, and I am using deductive reasoning, and the latter just wins.

Edit:
I will have to say one of the most annoying parts of dnd that can break immersion is all the different ways rules can be interpreted. this stacks vs this doesn't stack. So much to keep up with I feel like I'm in math class sometimes:smalltongue:

Well, to each his own, I suppose. Related may be the fact that I've always been partial to math class.

[shadowseve]

Well, you can't, technically, because bears are merely subsets of animal companion possibilities, and because celestial bears are subsets of characters, rather than all characters, but that is more than sufficient for these purposes.


Again, irrelevant. These examples have no impact on the rules. You are using inductive reasoning, and I am using deductive reasoning, and the latter just wins.

Edit:
Well, to each his own, I suppose. Related may be the fact that I've always been partial to math class.


Well I def understand your point or I wouldn't ask you for advice all the time :smallbiggrin:. I guess what I'm saying it's a little overwhelming to learn at first. I don't want to get something wrong, however; as I've shown it's easy to miss some minor detail and get something wrong that can have a major impact on the game. Learning the fine details of the game, especially considering my background with my first dm is taking a while.

there are so many books and so many rules.

[Morphie]

The druid doesn't mind toning down if it causes issues. He saw this thread and like shadowseve, seems to want to make sure he's completely legit and not fudging the system in anyway. There is a rogue and a fighter and sorc in the party so they're already underwhelmed even by me.

You're playing a Cleric that DMM persists things and you're concerned about the druid and his mega-bear, while you have a Rogue and a Fighter in the party? I feel for the "mundanes" and wonder what's running through their minds: the fighter seeing a bear doing his job better than him and the rogue trying to get at least one sneak attack through before the enemies get run over, among other things.

I'm going to derail a bit for a second to suggest something different: Maybe you should think about finding a way that both you and the druid PC can boost their abilities so the fighter and the rogue can shine sometimes/more often? I mean, you're both casters and all, you have great buffing spells, they just have weapons and skills, they could use some help (I'm not mentioning the sorcerer because if he knows how to do it, he'll be able to manage things with some nifty tricks). You look like you know the tier system so you see the huge gap there, right? Why not bridging it? You'll still be as powerful as you are and they will probably have more fun.

I'm sorry, I honestly don't mean to sound disruptive and it is not my role to say how you should play your game, but in my opinion if you're just thinking about competing with the other players for the spotlight you're missing the whole point of the game (unless you're playing pvp).
I don't have any other advice regarding your question because I think it has already been answered here and honestly I think you were just looking for a way to outshine the other powerful PC in your party by exposing the mistakes he might have committed with his char and sending him to a lesser degree of optimization (that will probably be resumed in a couple of levels). This should be the DM's role - making sure the rules aren't being broken. If the DM allowed the retraining of feats on the animal companion in order for it to get the exalted feats then he has to live with it or adjust accordingly if later he finds it unbalancing. If on the other hand the DM doesn't know about what has been done the PC should let him know - that's just how it works in my book - and then the DM should have the final say in the matter, wether allowing it or not.

But anyway, to each his own, if your group - all of them - is having fun playing that way, then by all means keep it up.

[Yanisa]

Again, irrelevant. These examples have no impact on the rules. You are using inductive reasoning, and I am using deductive reasoning, and the latter just wins.
Errrm, I am not in reach of a dictionary so I have no clue what you precisely mean, so pardon me if I understand you wrong, but what you are saying is you try to use general context vs personal reading in the context? Because my point still is that the general context doesn't offer a conslusive answer, and only personal reading leads to including animal companions (yet nothing disallows animal companions, it's a grey area as far as I can see). The fact character can be swapped for creature, doesn't mean it is always applyable, you just said so yourself.

I still am not convienced that there is any RAW that proves that animal companions can use the retraining rules. Likewise I am also convienced there isn't any RAW that proves that animals companions cant use the retraining rules. I still say it is not in the rules, so I still say it's a DM decission. And I am sorry for including too much personal reading in this dicussion,, it makes the whole dicussion a bit more wonky, but the lack of RAW is exactly my argument.

And as a sidenote, would you agree with ban retraining of animal companion feats if the PBII wasn't a book the DM allowed? Because I would say the DMG or MM rules about building/changing/advancing monsters could very much apply here, but those rules in the hands of the DM.

[cheetah]

this thread has made my head explode!!:smallconfused:

[eggynack]

Errrm, I am not in reach of a dictionary so I have no clue what you precisely mean, so pardon me if I understand you wrong, but what you are saying is you try to use general context vs personal reading in the context? Because my point still is that the general context doesn't offer a conslusive answer, and only personal reading leads to including animal companions (yet nothing disallows animal companions, it's a grey area as far as I can see). The fact character can be swapped for creature, doesn't mean it is always applyable, you just said so yourself.
No. Inductive reasoning is where you essentially present a bunch of examples, under the assumption that after pointing to enough things that act in a certain way, you can assert that all things act in that way. Inductive reasoning never perfectly gets you to a true result, at least not in the form you're using (there's mathematical induction, which can get you into proof territory, but that is neither here nor there). Deductive reasoning is where you construct a logical line that proves that something is the case for all of a thing, which means that it is also the case for a particular thing. Deductive reasoning, unlike inductive reasoning, is truth preserving.

As for your assertion that creature doesn't necessarily equal character, I'll put that logic here and assume that it answers the rest of your post. In particular, my position is that it doesn't matter, because bears are just characters, no logical equivalence required. The PHB says that a character is, " A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting." The rest of the entry merely presents the relationship between character and creature (which, for posterity, is essentially that any creature that is within the game world is a character), so the animal companion fulfills all requirements of characterhood, and can therefore retrain, as being a character is the sole limitation on retraining. As for banning the PHB II, I guess that'd stop this, though you could theoretically still have the DM adjudicated altered companion version of events.

Edit:
this thread has made my head explode!!:smallconfused:
I dunno, this one feels pretty simple to me, at least before we get into really diving into the animal companion's sheet for inconsistencies. If you want some real druid-based brain explosion, try asking what happens when you wild shape after receiving ability damage. It's just a big ol' mess.

[shadowseve]

No. Inductive reasoning is where you essentially present a bunch of examples, under the assumption that after pointing to enough things that act in a certain way, you can assert that all things act in that way. Inductive reasoning never perfectly gets you to a true result, at least not in the form you're using (there's mathematical induction, which can get you into proof territory, but that is neither here nor there). Deductive reasoning is where you construct a logical line that proves that something is the case for all of a thing, which means that it is also the case for a particular thing. Deductive reasoning, unlike inductive reasoning, is truth preserving.

As for your assertion that creature doesn't necessarily equal character, I'll put that logic here and assume that it answers the rest of your post. In particular, my position is that it doesn't matter, because bears are just characters, no logical equivalence required. The PHB says that a character is, " A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting." The rest of the entry merely presents the relationship between character and creature (which, for posterity, is essentially that any creature that is within the game world is a character), so the animal companion fulfills all requirements of characterhood, and can therefore retrain, as being a character is the sole limitation on retraining. As for banning the PHB II, I guess that'd stop this, though you could theoretically still have the DM adjudicated altered companion version of events.

Edit:
I dunno, this one feels pretty simple to me, at least before we get into really diving into the animal companion's sheet for inconsistencies. If you want some real druid-based brain explosion, try asking what happens when you wild shape after receiving ability damage. It's just a big ol' mess.

IF I am correct in your "normal/ non wild shaped self" and you took str hit and went bear then the penalty would no longer apply since it's replaced with the animals. However; if you took a wis hit then it would still apply. My reasoning on that would be you still keep your wis cha and int during your "shift". At least that is what makes sense. But what makes sense doesn't always apply to RAW.

[Sir Chuckles]

this thread has made my head explode!!:smallconfused:

Once you get it regenerated a few times, you get used to it.

Ultimately, I think this was originally a matter of a player feeling overshadowed and not having fun. My answer to that after all these replies? Ask the Druid to tone it back, and tone it back yourself. You said that this is your first cleric, and it looks like you dove head first into the deepest, darkest, dankest parts of the optimization pool. The problem there is that you brought a snorkel, fun-fins, and a pool noodle.

As for the rules discussion? Errors were made by essentially the whole group. Same-type stacking probably should have been noticed early on, due to Luminous Armor. As for the retraining and choosing of feats? Mostly DM discretion, just like choosing feats for a Cohort.
A total step back is needed here, so see the bigger picture and understand exactly what the problem seems to be.

[cheetah]

No. Inductive reasoning is where you essentially present a bunch of examples, under the assumption that after pointing to enough things that act in a certain way, you can assert that all things act in that way. Inductive reasoning never perfectly gets you to a true result, at least not in the form you're using (there's mathematical induction, which can get you into proof territory, but that is neither here nor there). Deductive reasoning is where you construct a logical line that proves that something is the case for all of a thing, which means that it is also the case for a particular thing. Deductive reasoning, unlike inductive reasoning, is truth preserving.

As for your assertion that creature doesn't necessarily equal character, I'll put that logic here and assume that it answers the rest of your post. In particular, my position is that it doesn't matter, because bears are just characters, no logical equivalence required. The PHB says that a character is, " A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting." The rest of the entry merely presents the relationship between character and creature (which, for posterity, is essentially that any creature that is within the game world is a character), so the animal companion fulfills all requirements of characterhood, and can therefore retrain, as being a character is the sole limitation on retraining. As for banning the PHB II, I guess that'd stop this, though you could theoretically still have the DM adjudicated altered companion version of events.

Edit:
I dunno, this one feels pretty simple to me, at least before we get into really diving into the animal companion's sheet for inconsistencies. If you want some real druid-based brain explosion, try asking what happens when you wild shape after receiving ability damage. It's just a big ol' mess.

It's all complicated to someone new to dnd like me but I've learned a lot from watching threads like these. I don't comment a lot but I tend to pay a lot of attention when druid posts come up. Especially between shadowseve and yourself since he tends to ask a lot of the same questions that I have wondered.

[eggynack]

IF I am correct in your "normal/ non wild shaped self" and you took str hit and went bear then the penalty would no longer apply since it's replaced with the animals. However; if you took a wis hit then it would still apply. My reasoning on that would be you still keep your wis cha and int during your "shift". At least that is what makes sense. But what makes sense doesn't always apply to RAW.
The answer is that there just ain't nothin' man. Completely ambiguous. Does changing your ability score overwrite the damage or include it? There're no rules to guide you down that path. That there is some dangerous road, and there's lots of it out there, especially when you get deep into wild shape.

[shadowseve]

It's all complicated to someone new to dnd like me but I've learned a lot from watching threads like these. I don't comment a lot but I tend to pay a lot of attention when druid posts come up. Especially between shadowseve and yourself since he tends to ask a lot of the same questions that I have wondered.


I'm sure I'll have many more. So far the forums have tolerated my endless questioning so...:smallbiggrin: Druids are a complicated class.

[clericgirl]

Once you get it regenerated a few times, you get used to it.

Ultimately, I think this was originally a matter of a player feeling overshadowed and not having fun. My answer to that after all these replies? Ask the Druid to tone it back, and tone it back yourself. You said that this is your first cleric, and it looks like you dove head first into the deepest, darkest, dankest parts of the optimization pool. The problem there is that you brought a snorkel, fun-fins, and a pool noodle.

As for the rules discussion? Errors were made by essentially the whole group. Same-type stacking probably should have been noticed early on, due to Luminous Armor. As for the retraining and choosing of feats? Mostly DM discretion, just like choosing feats for a Cohort.
A total step back is needed here, so see the bigger picture and understand exactly what the problem seems to be.


So should I have chosen different domains?

I looked through http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=m88tlig97htba361582lait2c0&topic=1238

Now I know martial weapon prof great sword is not the greatest but I love great swords so I went with it as a character feature. I thought planning and undeath were supposed to be great domains with DMM persist. I was totally wrong about the armor. I have never studied the stacking thing and it makes sense now that It's been mentioned.

I can't prestige so it's going to be strait cleric 20 for me I do believe.

[Esgath]

Back to the OP. Here are some resources, to help you choose your persisted spells: Spells liste by use (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7428.0), spells listed by class (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7468.0) and top 10 spells per level (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7543).
The trick with Extend Spell is, to not do it yourself. Instead buy a metamagic rod (extend) for 3000gp/11000gp/24500gp for lesser/normal/greater variant and use that to double the 24 hour duration into 48 hours. 6 persisted spells are a lot.
Among my personal favourites were Holy Transformation, lesser (4th, SpC) and Divine Shield (3rd, PHB II). The damage reduction lets you take an immense amount of punishment and Holy Transformation gives you flight and changes your type into an outsider.
Now, if you get into contemplative at 11th level, you could pick your additional domain to be the Spell Domain from SpC, and have Greater Anyspell. With this, you can persist Draconic Polymorph (5th, Draconomicon) and, because you are an outsider with holy transformation, change into nearly any creature you like.

[clericgirl]

Back to the OP. Here are some resources, to help you choose your persisted spells: Spells liste by use (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7428.0), spells listed by class (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7468.0) and top 10 spells per level (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7543).
The trick with Extend Spell is, to not do it yourself. Instead buy a metamagic rod (extend) for 3000gp/11000gp/24500gp for lesser/normal/greater variant and use that to double the 24 hour duration into 48 hours. 6 persisted spells are a lot.
Among my personal favourites were Holy Transformation, lesser (4th, SpC) and Divine Shield (3rd, PHB II). The damage reduction lets you take an immense amount of punishment and Holy Transformation gives you flight and changes your type into an outsider.
Now, if you get into contemplative at 11th level, you could pick your additional domain to be the Spell Domain from SpC, and have Greater Anyspell. With this, you can persist Draconic Polymorph (5th, Draconomicon) and, because you are an outsider with holy transformation, change into nearly any creature you like.

This is more like what I was looking for. I'm at work and the links listed are blocked so I can't look them up,but I will later, so would holy transformation interfere with divine power, or should I forget about that all together. now what about holy transformation and righteous might?


I'm really going to feel dumb for this but once the rod is used it's finished right? It isn't reusable per day is it?

[Esgath]

Those rods are usable 3 times per day, perfect for your situation: Metamagic Rod, Extend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend). Buy more if you need them.
Holy Transformation doesn't forbid you to use Divine Power or Righteous Might. If you use them all together, you are a [Large] outsider (in this case, you look like a protectar) with full BAB and all the other bonuses. If someone tries to argue, that Holy Transformation makes you medium sized, just cast Righteous Might last.
Also, for further arguments in this region:

When do “add-on” effects such as poison occur? For example, if an assassin delivers a death attack with a weapon bearing wyvernpoison, does the poison take effect first, thus potentially reducing the target’s Fortitude save against the death attack?
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect. In this case, the assassin is the “controller” of both the poison and the death attack, so he’d most likely choose for the poison to take effect first,and then the death attack.
Emphasis mine, and here the link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)if you need it.

I would recommend, you check the spells on that list yourself if you found one that suits you. Lore of the Gods is somewhere in those lists and it is dischargeable, which is a big no-no for Persist Spell.

[Morphie]

I'm really going to feel dumb for this but once the rod is used it's finished right? It isn't reusable per day is it?

Metamagic rods are usable 3 times per day, so yes, you can use them daily.

[Yanisa]

No. Inductive reasoning is where you essentially present a bunch of examples, under the assumption that after pointing to enough things that act in a certain way, you can assert that all things act in that way. Inductive reasoning never perfectly gets you to a true result, at least not in the form you're using (there's mathematical induction, which can get you into proof territory, but that is neither here nor there). Deductive reasoning is where you construct a logical line that proves that something is the case for all of a thing, which means that it is also the case for a particular thing. Deductive reasoning, unlike inductive reasoning, is truth preserving.

As for your assertion that creature doesn't necessarily equal character, I'll put that logic here and assume that it answers the rest of your post. In particular, my position is that it doesn't matter, because bears are just characters, no logical equivalence required. The PHB says that a character is, " A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting." The rest of the entry merely presents the relationship between character and creature (which, for posterity, is essentially that any creature that is within the game world is a character), so the animal companion fulfills all requirements of characterhood, and can therefore retrain, as being a character is the sole limitation on retraining. As for banning the PHB II, I guess that'd stop this, though you could theoretically still have the DM adjudicated altered companion version of events.

Okay, I swear this is my last post on this topic, and it already ran past the point I realized neither of us would budge. In the end you make a valid point, but I still feel it's a grey area rather then cut and dry RAW. We can run in circles and have extensive debates on the meaning of words, but that just proves to me that it is a grey area because the text is vague enough to explained in multiples ways.
Also if you take any random paragraph in the book with the word character in, would that always include animals companions, or creatures from the monster manuel, or bears? I think there must be a lot of cases where character means flat out "PC" and cases where it means any "creature, being, or critter". So I don't see it is fair to call that a "logical line" in the meaning. It might include all beings in the case of retraining, it might not. I still would put up a disclaimer saying "ask your DM first, because the book is unclear".

Besides my orginal point was without the PHBII in mind, so atleast we can agree on that. :smalltongue:
So I accept your point, but still say the rules are too unclear for defenite answer. I just don't see the the "clearness" you see.

If you still want to convince me, you are free to PM me, or start a new topic, but I feel I derailed this topic way too much from the orginal post, which is not going to help the OP with her problem (or anyone else with retraining questions) and I got nothing more to add then repeating myself. So I keep quiet on this topic.

[eggynack]

Okay, I swear this is my last post on this topic, and it already ran past the point I realized neither of us would budge. In the end you make a valid point, but I still feel it's a grey area rather then cut and dry RAW. We can run in circles and have extensive debates on the meaning of words, but that just proves to me that it is a grey area because the text is vague enough to explained in multiples ways.
That's not really how gray areas work. You need to actually present some ambiguity for there to be ambiguity.

Also if you take any random paragraph in the book with the word character in, would that always include animals companions, or creatures from the monster manuel, or bears? I think there must be a lot of cases where character means flat out "PC" and cases where it means any "creature, being, or critter". So I don't see it is fair to call that a "logical line" in the meaning. It might include all beings in the case of retraining, it might not. I still would put up a disclaimer saying "ask your DM first, because the book is unclear".
The book defines character in the manner I have presented. If you can find some countering definition, then that would certainly support your point, but without such a case, I must take the book's glossary at its word and assume that it is a suitable definition of the term. Bears are characters, presumably if and only if they exist in the game world. I don't really see how it's unfair to call this a logical line. Seems pretty well supported by evidence and logic alike to me.

[clericgirl]

Those rods are usable 3 times per day, perfect for your situation: Metamagic Rod, Extend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend). Buy more if you need them.
Holy Transformation doesn't forbid you to use Divine Power or Righteous Might. If you use them all together, you are a [Large] outsider (in this case, you look like a protectar) with full BAB and all the other bonuses. If someone tries to argue, that Holy Transformation makes you medium sized, just cast Righteous Might last.
Also, for further arguments in this region:

Emphasis mine, and here the link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)if you need it.

I would recommend, you check the spells on that list yourself if you found one that suits you. Lore of the Gods is somewhere in those lists and it is dischargeable, which is a big no-no for Persist Spell.

this is exactly the stuff I'm looking for: ways to DMM more spells without so much nightstick abuse. I'll def poor over the spells. so by the looks of this I could have 6 spells constantly persisted everyday with just one of those rods. I'm only getting two stacking nightsticks that he's allowing to be used once per day. I will def talk about getting one of those.

thanks guys I really mean it. I'm sure I'll have more questions later.

[Threadnaught]

At level 7 a player can take a brown bear as a companion. the post mentioned that the druid had a brown bear, hint the Alaskan Kodiak bear. the bear was exalted. It looks like to me that retraining was allowed and the bear was retrained and given improv nat attack sacred vow and vop. A celestian bear does have an int of three.

At level 7 a Druid can take a Brown Bear, but must use the basic stat block, as their Druid level is treated as -6 for purpose of the Animal Companion. Exalted Companion allows a Druid to take a Celestial Animal at -1 effective Druid level. Minimum level for a Celestial Brown Bear is 8 and Natural Bond cannot increase your effective Druid level more than your total HD.
There are definitely house rules in play. I'll accept the Black Bear as having VoP and any bonus stuff it gets as RAW, but the Brown Bear is only that powerful because of house rules.


Intent is irrelevant. As is mentioned in the PHB glossary, character and creature are used interchangeably, and the definition given to character there applies to animal companions. There are thus many lines that allow this. You can't use what you want to be so, and what you think people who designed the game wanted, as a substitute for what is.

If it has Wisdom and Charisma, it's a Creature.

If it has an Intelligence of at least 3, it's a Character.


Pretty sure this is a thing that I thought checked out, and PM'd about to that effect. I think that was only in relation to the exalted companion+VoP thing though, so I don't know if all the particular calculations check out. For example, this was mentioned as working at seventh level, while you'd actually need to wait until 8th, because getting a celestial companion imposes a -1 penalty to effective druid level.

Overall, however, I'm not entirely sure what calculations I'm checking for fudging on. I suspect, apart from the issues mentioned, the effective druid level and enhancement bonus to strength thing, that the calculations check out. The one thing that could cause some oddities is the timing on VoP, because that would determine how many exalted feats the druid gets. Probably not the biggest deal, because there aren't that many worthwhile exalted feats to work with on a bear. You get touch of golden ice, and sanctify natural attack, and the rest tends to be pretty low impact.

So I haven't missed anything?

[LordBlades]

At level 7 a Druid can take a Brown Bear, but must use the basic stat block, as their Druid level is treated as -6 for purpose of the Animal Companion. Exalted Companion allows a Druid to take a Celestial Animal at -1 effective Druid level. Minimum level for a Celestial Brown Bear is 8 and Natural Bond cannot increase your effective Druid level more than your HD.

Druid level -6 (Brown Bear)+3 (Natural Bond) is druid level -3, which is stil less than your HD, so where exactly is the problem?

[eggynack]

If it has Wisdom and Charisma, it's a Creature.

If it has an Intelligence of at least 3, it's a Character.
I don't think that delineation is supported in the text, as my later citation indicates, but as the ancient philosophers were known to say, "Meh." It seems to not have bearing on this case, because the bear does have 3 intelligence, so it's not particularly worth arguing.



So I haven't missed anything?
You likely haven't, but I'm honestly not entirely sure what's being missed where. To my knowledge, we've yet to see a real stat block for this behemoth, and the only errors I'm aware of are the two that have been noted. The sheet is definitely in error now, because of the effective druid level thing, but if I'm not mistaken, it won't be particularly in error when a level up occurs. Your assertion that the bear is only as powerful as it is due to house rules thus seems a bit misleading, even if it may technically be accurate. Actually, come to think of it, assuming a level 7 character, the celestial black bear, equipped with natural bond, would have an effective druid level of 6, which would mean an extra two HD atop the five already present. That's a pretty relevant thing, I think.

Edit:
Druid level -6 (Brown Bear)+3 (Natural Bond) is druid level -3, which is stil less than your HD, so where exactly is the problem?
I think the issue at work here is that the druid is attempting to get an animal companion that would have an effective druid level of zero. Natural bond seems to apply after the animal companion has arrived, while the celestial part is at the calling phase, so you would never be able to get the companion in the first place such that the effective druid level increase can come into effect.

[clericgirl]

I don't think that delineation is supported in the text, as my later citation indicates, but as the ancient philosophers were known to say, "Meh." It seems to not have bearing on this case, because the bear does have 3 intelligence, so it's not particularly worth arguing.



You likely haven't, but I'm honestly not entirely sure what's being missed where. To my knowledge, we've yet to see a real stat block for this behemoth, and the only errors I'm aware of are the two that have been noted. The sheet is definitely in error now, because of the effective druid level thing, but if I'm not mistaken, it won't be particularly in error when a level up occurs. Your assertion that the bear is only as powerful as it is due to house rules thus seems a bit misleading, even if it may technically be accurate. Actually, come to think of it, assuming a level 7 character, the celestial black bear, equipped with natural bond, would have an effective druid level of 6, which would mean an extra two HD atop the five already present. That's a pretty relevant thing, I think.

Edit:
I think the issue at work here is that the druid is attempting to get an animal companion that would have an effective druid level of zero. Natural bond seems to apply after the animal companion has arrived, while the celestial part is at the calling phase, so you would never be able to get the companion in the first place such that the effective druid level increase can come into effect.

I will try to get the actual stats later but I think he maxed the bears hd from the monsters manual, then gave it the 2 hd +con from his animal companion level. I think shadowseve's calculated guess was pretty close at guessing the bears str and damage, at least it seems that way. Though I'll see if I can take a look at the bears actual stats and post them. I know he was using bull str on top of the vop bonuses as he would stat he's using bull str. I don't know if this helps or not. This is all off the top of my head from yesterdays session.

[LordBlades]

Edit:
I think the issue at work here is that the druid is attempting to get an animal companion that would have an effective druid level of zero. Natural bond seems to apply after the animal companion has arrived, while the celestial part is at the calling phase, so you would never be able to get the companion in the first place such that the effective druid level increase can come into effect.

Upon re-reading Natural Bond I don't find anything to support that idea. I did notice something else though. The +3 druid level applies to a list of stuff, and the ability to get a certain animal companion is not there. So you can't get access to better animal companions with it.

On the other hand, Exalted Companion states (assiming dndtools is correct, afb atm) 'Subtract an extra -1 from the druid's level (or the ranger's effective druid level) for purposes of determining the companion's characteristics and special abilities.' So it doesn't apply to your eligibility for a given companion either, aka celestial brown bear at level 7 is legal.

[Threadnaught]

Druid level -6 (Brown Bear)+3 (Natural Bond) is druid level -3, which is stil less than your HD, so where exactly is the problem?

One problem is here, Druid levels 7 + Natural Bond 3 = 10/7.

The minimum number is more than the maximum.


The other problem, as eggynack rightly pointed out, is that you can only benefit from Natural Bond this way, after you have called a companion that you don't even qualify for without abusing Natural Bond in this way.


I don't think that delineation is supported in the text, as my later citation indicates, but as the ancient philosophers were known to say, "Meh." It seems to not have bearing on this case, because the bear does have 3 intelligence, so it's not particularly worth arguing.

I was mostly thinking about the N/PC races when I first mentioned retraining. They always have at least 3 Intelligence, even the -Int races when they roll all 1s and put that to Intelligence.


Your assertion that the bear is only as powerful as it is due to house rules thus seems a bit misleading, even if it may technically be accurate.

I admit that the bear would be powerful on it's own without the bonuses gained from Natural Bond and VoP, but with Natural Bond and VoP, it is even more powerful than it would be by RAW. How did it get this additional power to boost it to this level? House rules, without them it wouldn't be as powerful as it is.


Actually, come to think of it, assuming a level 7 character, the celestial black bear, equipped with natural bond, would have an effective druid level of 6, which would mean an extra two HD atop the five already present. That's a pretty relevant thing, I think.

I'm going to contend with this statement. The Bear isn't the one with Natural Bond, it's the Druid and as I've already stated before, Natural Bond would push the Druid's effective Druid level from 7 to 10, while they're still 7th level.
10/7 doesn't work, the rules don't allow it. House rule.

I think I may have to edit in VoP and it's prerequisite to Raw the Bear though.

[LordBlades]

One problem is here, Druid levels 7 + Natural Bond 3 = 10/7.

The minimum number is more than the maximum.


Unless otherwise stated you get to apply bonuses/penalties in the order most benefficial to you. So you if Natural Bond affected your eligibility for compa ions you could apply the -6 penalty first and the +3 bonus afterward. A druid 7 (which can get a brown bear normally) can do just that for special abilities and have an effective level of 4 for that purpose.

[shadowseve]

Unless otherwise stated you get to apply bonuses/penalties in the order most benefficial to you. So you if Natural Bond affected your eligibility for compa ions you could apply the -6 penalty first and the +3 bonus afterward. A druid 7 (which can get a brown bear normally) can do just that for special abilities and have an effective level of 4 for that purpose.

This was my first understanding of it. Taking an exalted companion would then bring the bear down to a level 3 brown bear.

to me this makes the most sense. subtract the penalty then apply the bonus.

Edit:
this is direct from the book.

4) Subtract an extra –1 from the druid’s level (or the ranger’s
effective druid level) for purposes of determining the
companion’s characteristics and special abilities.

I'm starting to agree with LordBlades.

[Threadnaught]

Unless otherwise stated you get to apply bonuses/penalties in the order most benefficial to you. So you if Natural Bond affected your eligibility for compa ions you could apply the -6 penalty first and the +3 bonus afterward. A druid 7 (which can get a brown bear normally) can do just that for special abilities and have an effective level of 4 for that purpose.

It would work if you did it that way (the most abusive way possible), yes.

Tell me though, what happens if you lose your Animal Companion?

[shadowseve]

It would work if you did it that way (the most abusive way possible), yes.

Tell me though, what happens if you lose your Animal Companion?

even if you did the 7+3=10 so you have 10/7 if you subtract the -7 for the celestial brown bear you're still left with three. so 3/7 so the min does not exceed the max. So how would that not be a celestial brown bear companion of 3?

[Metahuman1]

Spells I recommend for Persisting.

Righteous Might.

Divine Power.

Holy Transformation.

Displacement.

Haste.

Wraith Strike.



Spells I recommend for Extending on a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell.

Greater Magic Weapon.

Magic Vestment.

Greater Luminous Armor.



A Monk's Belt level 1 is a good investment short term, boosting your AC more then armor will. At higher levels when you can afford Heavy Fortification and Freedom of Movement properties, investing in actual armor is a good idea again. A +1 suit of any light armor you fancy with armor spikes of useful ability's, warning, smoking, defensive, style, ext, and a useful augmentation crystal (and maybe a second round of magic vestments to make the greater version work.) offering heavy fortification or freedom of movement or both are better then the AC you were getting from the Monks belt.

[LordBlades]

It would work if you did it that way (the most abusive way possible), yes.

Tell me though, what happens if you lose your Animal Companion?

It's IMO the only reading supported by the rules. When it dies? Get a new celestial brown bear (-1 to eff druid level only applies to special abilities and characteristics as per feat text), then proceed to subtract 1 and add 3 tp your eff level to determine it's abilities in whichever order fancies you.

[clericgirl]

Spells I recommend for Persisting.

Righteous Might.

Divine Power.

Holy Transformation.

Displacement.

Haste.

Wraith Strike.



Spells I recommend for Extending on a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell.

Greater Magic Weapon.

Magic Vestment.

Greater Luminous Armor.



A Monk's Belt level 1 is a good investment short term, boosting your AC more then armor will. At higher levels when you can afford Heavy Fortification and Freedom of Movement properties, investing in actual armor is a good idea again. A +1 suit of any light armor you fancy with armor spikes of useful ability's, warning, smoking, defensive, style, ext, and a useful augmentation crystal (and maybe a second round of magic vestments to make the greater version work.) offering heavy fortification or freedom of movement or both are better then the AC you were getting from the Monks belt.

I will take that belt and spells into consideration though I won't have righteous might for a few more levels. I may for now until I can get the rods persit divine power divine favor and lesser holy transformation.

Should I swap my domains from planning and undeath?

[shadowseve]

It's IMO the only reading supported by the rules. When it dies? Get a new celestial brown bear (-1 to eff druid level only applies to special abilities and characteristics as per feat text), then proceed to subtract 1 and add 3 tp your eff level to determine it's abilities in whichever order fancies you. I did not realize when your pet died you lose a level. That sucks so even with natures bond the new celestial bear would not be as strong as the new one. Bummer.

[Metahuman1]

Undeath gives you more turn undead uses, right? I wouldn't. More so since Planning also gives you the prereq for Extend spell.

Now, here's a question, planning is giving you extend spell, and your human which accounts for Persist and DMM. Martial weapons proficiency covers your 3rd level feat. What's your 6th level feat, and did you take flaws at level 1 for bonus feats and if so, what did you grab?

Depending you may want to think about retraining. If you can get Item familiar that opens up a lot of fun with crafting magic items for half cost or less for yourself and maybe the other party members. Apart from that, make sure you have power attack for damage output, and then, load up on Extra Turning hits to get more uses of persist a day.

Oh, and I almost forgot one spell for Persisting. Lesser Vigor, makes HP a per encounter resource instead of a per day resource.

[LordBlades]

I did not realize when your pet died you lose a level. That sucks so even with natures bond the new celestial bear would not be as strong as the new one. Bummer.

Who said anything about losing a level?

[Esgath]

I will take that belt and spells into consideration though I won't have righteous might for a few more levels. I may for now until I can get the rods persit divine power divine favor and lesser holy transformation.

Should I swap my domains from planning and undeath?

If you swap your domains, you will inevitably persist less spells than before. Changing into an outsider via holy transformation will also give you the traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) of outsiders, one of which is, that you are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. No need for your feat then.
Regarding the monks belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks): I would advise against it. Unless you plan to go an unarmored route, it's better to invest your gold into something else. If your wisdom isn't abnormally high, a simple chainshirt with magic vestment should provide you with about the same armor class and a lot cheaper. And later you can enchant it with some nice armor enhancements, like Metahuman1 already said.
Take care to never get a +2 or higher magic armor or weapon. Just make it +1 to get the other enchantments going, you have greater magic weapon and magic vestment for those enhancement bonuses.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I will take that belt and spells into consideration though I won't have righteous might for a few more levels. I may for now until I can get the rods persit divine power divine favor and lesser holy transformation.

Should I swap my domains from planning and undeath?

Extend + Persist does not result in a 48 hour duration. Extend is worded to only affect the spell's normal duration, not its Persisted duration. If a spell normally lasts a round/level, Extend makes it last two rounds/level, and Persistent makes it last 24 hours. Even if you apply Persistent first, Extend will still only double its round/level duration, because it only doubles the spell's normal duration.

Yes, swap one of your domains. See this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347778-druids-aren-t-tier-1-they-re-tier-I-kick-your-ass-Help-me-compete-with-our-druid&p=17452987&viewfull=1#post17452987).

[Metahuman1]

Extend + Persist does not result in a 48 hour duration. Extend is worded to only affect the spell's normal duration, not its Persisted duration. If a spell normally lasts a round/level, Extend makes it last two rounds/level, and Persistent makes it last 24 hours. Even if you apply Persistent first, Extend will still only double its round/level duration, because it only doubles the spell's normal duration.

Yes, swap one of your domains. See this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347778-druids-aren-t-tier-1-they-re-tier-I-kick-your-ass-Help-me-compete-with-our-druid&p=17452987&viewfull=1#post17452987).

Regarding linked post: Um, yeah, DM said no PrC's or multyclassing, so she needs to do this on cleric 20.

And while she should retrain the martial weapons proficiency feat when she's Persisting Holy Transformation, she wants to use a greatsword. Though thinking back on it Flaming and Keen are kinda weaksauce enchantments, you might wanna consider adding different ones. Maybe Mage Bane if it only apply's to Arcanists. Or, if you've got a way to make None Lethal damage something your Immune too or almost immune too, like, persisted lesser vigor for the latter part, maybe consider Merciful and Vicious as a combo.


As to that idea of doubling your pool to turning attempts, is there a feat somewhere that gives turn undead, cause you could take/retrain for that feat, retrain for the dragon trick, and double down that way.

[lunar2]

the rule is that the controller of one or more effects applies those effects in the order most beneficial to themselves.

so 7-6+3=4 is the default way to do it, not the abusive way to do it. forcing them to do 7+3(negated to 0)-6=1 is a nerf from the default.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding linked post: Um, yeah, DM said no PrC's or multyclassing, so she needs to do this on cleric 20.

And while she should retrain the martial weapons proficiency feat when she's Persisting Holy Transformation, she wants to use a greatsword. Though thinking back on it Flaming and Keen are kinda weaksauce enchantments, you might wanna consider adding different ones. Maybe Mage Bane if it only apply's to Arcanists. Or, if you've got a way to make None Lethal damage something your Immune too or almost immune too, like, persisted lesser vigor for the latter part, maybe consider Merciful and Vicious as a combo.


As to that idea of doubling your pool to turning attempts, is there a feat somewhere that gives turn undead, cause you could take/retrain for that feat, retrain for the dragon trick, and double down that way.

There aren't any feats that grant Turn Undead or similar, just classes.

The prohibition on prestige classes and multiclassing is nothing short of infuriating. In that case, Druid is the only 'correct choice' of class to play, because everything else in the game is always going to fall short.

In light of that, my advice would be to talk to the rest of the players in the group. Have everyone put their current characters on hiatus and roll Druids, then after gaining two levels everyone takes Leadership and brings their current character back as a cohort.

[eggynack]

On the other hand, Exalted Companion states (assiming dndtools is correct, afb atm) 'Subtract an extra -1 from the druid's level (or the ranger's effective druid level) for purposes of determining the companion's characteristics and special abilities.' So it doesn't apply to your eligibility for a given companion either, aka celestial brown bear at level 7 is legal.
The problem with that is, you're getting an animal companion with the characteristics of the animal companion of a 0th level druid. A 0th level druid doesn't get an animal companion.

It would work if you did it that way (the most abusive way possible), yes.

Tell me though, what happens if you lose your Animal Companion?
Well, it's certainly the most abusive reading, but it's also really the most accurate reading. You have a low effective druid level, because you have an animal companion that imposes a penalty, and natural bond increases it. I don't know how losing the animal companion would change things at all. You'd just do the same thing again. This is pretty classic druid trickery.

Extend + Persist does not result in a 48 hour duration. Extend is worded to only affect the spell's normal duration, not its Persisted duration. If a spell normally lasts a round/level, Extend makes it last two rounds/level, and Persistent makes it last 24 hours. Even if you apply Persistent first, Extend will still only double its round/level duration, because it only doubles the spell's normal duration.

I don't see support for that in the wording. It says that the spell lasts twice as long as normal, and the normal duration of a persisted divine power is 24 hours. The feat doesn't say that it specifically impacts normal duration, and even if it did, my argument still holds, as the normal duration on a persisted divine power is still 24 hours.

[LordBlades]

The problem with that is, you're getting an animal companion with the characteristics of the animal companion of a 0th level druid. A 0th level druid doesn't get an animal companion.
.

The way I see it, you're getting the completely typical animal, as -1 to druid level applies after you actually get the animal, but you get no bonuses as they start at effective druid 1. Effective druid level only determines what bonuses ypu get, not whether ypu lose an animal companion you already gained. Under strictest reading you get a completely average celestial bear with which you have no connection whatsoever yet hanging around. Natural bond takes care of it though.

[eggynack]

The way I see it, you're getting the completely typical animal, as -1 to druid level applies after you actually get the animal, but you get no bonuses as they start at effective druid 1. Effective druid level only determines what bonuses ypu get, not whether ypu lose an animal companion you already gained. Under strictest reading you get a completely average celestial bear with which you have no connection whatsoever yet hanging around. Natural bond takes care of it though.
Your claim here, that you're getting a completely typical animal, doesn't really make sense. Exalted companion says that you pick something off of the expanded list when you call forth a companion. Moreover, the -1 to druid level uses the same exact terminology as standard alternative companions do, and, in addition to the explicit limitation that is given by the "4th level or higher"'s, there is the broader limitation on animal companion that states, "If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion." So that part of your argument is incorrect also.

Edit: As for natural bond providing any capacity to select animal companions outside of your range, it does not. Natural bond increases effective druid level, "for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives." Not among those purposes is selecting better animal companions, and as I've proved that a high effective druid level is necessary for animal companion selection, this just doesn't work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't see support for that in the wording. It says that the spell lasts twice as long as normal, and the normal duration of a persisted divine power is 24 hours. The feat doesn't say that it specifically impacts normal duration, and even if it did, my argument still holds, as the normal duration on a persisted divine power is still 24 hours.

"An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal."

While 'normal' is not defined in the rules, we can see another example of its use, regarding spontaneous spellcasters and metamagic:

"If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell."

Note that if the spell's normal casting time is less than 1 standard action, then that spell is not affected by this rule. If a metamagic feat was capable of affecting a spell's 'normal' casting time, then Quicken Spell would reduce the spell's casting time to less than 1 standard action and it would not have its casting time increased by this rule. That is not the case, thus a metamagic feat cannot affect a spell's 'normal' casting time, nor can it affect a spell's 'normal' duration.

Extend Spell does not modify a spell's Persistent duration, only its normal duration which is what's printed for it.

[eggynack]

"An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal."

While 'normal' is not defined in the rules, we can see another example of its use, regarding spontaneous spellcasters and metamagic:

"If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell."

Note that if the spell's normal casting time is less than 1 standard action, then that spell is not affected by this rule. If a metamagic feat was capable of affecting a spell's 'normal' casting time, then Quicken Spell would reduce the spell's casting time to less than 1 standard action and it would not have its casting time increased by this rule. That is not the case, thus a metamagic feat cannot affect a spell's 'normal' casting time, nor can it affect a spell's 'normal' duration.

Extend Spell does not modify a spell's Persistent duration, only its normal duration which is what's printed for it.
Your cited definition of normal doesn't really apply in this particular case, as it's not a precedent for duration terms. As is, it's not really clear that a persisted spell cannot be defined as a spell that normally has a 24 hour duration. It helps that the term "normal duration," because that means that it's not really referring to a particular game object. The spell just lasts twice as long as normal, and normal for a persisted spell is 24 hours, which is a thing that works as you can apply bonuses favorably.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding the Druid's animal companion, I've already established that it does not follow the rules, but I'll be more specific about it this time:

A Druid 7 with Exalted Companion and Natural Bond has a Celestial Bear companion. It could be either a Brown Bear or a Black Bear.

Note that being a Celestial creature it's now a Magical Beast and is not eligible for the Warbeast template, as that can only be applied to animals. Celestial Creature is an inherited template so it's impossible to make it a Warbeast before it became Celestial. Exalted Companion doesn't turn your current companion into a celestial one, it allows you to recruit a new one with that template.

Using the most favorable order of applying your own effects, he counts as a Druid 6 for a Celestial Black Bear or as a Druid 3 for a Celestial Brown Bear.

A Celestial Black Bear would be 7 HD with Endurance, Run, and one feat of his choosing.
A Celestial Brown Bear would be 8 HD with Endurance, Run, Track, and zero feats of his choosing.

In either case, the bear cannot have both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, and it especially doesn't have yet another feat for Improved Natural Attack.


Your cited definition of normal doesn't really apply in this particular case, as it's not a precedent for duration terms. As is, it's not really clear that a persisted spell cannot be defined as a spell that normally has a 24 hour duration. It helps that the term "normal duration," because that means that it's not really referring to a particular game object. The spell just lasts twice as long as normal, and normal for a persisted spell is 24 hours, which is a thing that works as you can apply bonuses favorably.

You can apply your own effects favorably, but you cannot split up multiple bonuses/penalties from a single effect (such as Wild Magic).

The rules are in English, so I'll defer to the definition of normal:
conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal?s=t)

Extend Spell affects the spell's usual or natural duration, not its modified duration.

[eggynack]

Regarding the Druid's animal companion, I've already established that it does not follow the rules, but I'll be more specific about it this time:

A Druid 7 with Exalted Companion and Natural Bond has a Celestial Bear companion. It could be either a Brown Bear or a Black Bear.

Note that being a Celestial creature it's now a Magical Beast and is not eligible for the Warbeast template, as that can only be applied to animals. Celestial Creature is an inherited template so it's impossible to make it a Warbeast before it became Celestial. Exalted Companion doesn't turn your current companion into a celestial one, it allows you to recruit a new one with that template.

Using the most favorable order of applying your own effects, he counts as a Druid 6 for a Celestial Black Bear or as a Druid 3 for a Celestial Brown Bear.

A Celestial Black Bear would be 7 HD with Endurance, Run, and one feat of his choosing.
A Celestial Brown Bear would be 8 HD with Endurance, Run, Track, and zero feats of his choosing.

In either case, the bear cannot have both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, and it especially doesn't have yet another feat for Improved Natural Attack.
I really don't think you can get a celestial brown bear at level seven at all, for the reasons I cited above. To be more explicit about it, natural bond impacts, "effective druid level for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses," while what you seem to need a high number in is, " level for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities." The characteristics thing is the part where companion selection is, I think. I do think retraining works, however, so I think you'd have more feats to work with than you're mentioning, at least at some point.




You can apply your own effects favorably, but you cannot split up multiple bonuses/penalties from a single effect (such as Wild Magic).

The rules are in English, so I'll defer to the definition of normal:
conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal?s=t)

Extend Spell affects the spell's usual or natural duration, not its modified duration.
And 24 hours is the duration conforming to the standard or common type of a persistent spell. I think this might be an ambiguous thing, without some better definition of normal provided by the book.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I really don't think you can get a celestial brown bear at level seven at all, for the reasons I cited above. To be more explicit about it, natural bond impacts, "effective druid level for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses," while what you seem to need a high number in is, " level for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities." The characteristics thing is the part where companion selection is, I think. I do think retraining works, however, so I think you'd have more feats to work with than you're mentioning, at least at some point.

"A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals. Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)"

You can pick any companion you want as long as you're at least a 4th level druid, and the adjustment doesn't reduce your effective druid level to 0 or lower. Counting Natural Bond, a 4th level Druid can get a Brown Bear companion. The minimum Druid level in the column headers are only there as an easy reference assuming only the core rulebooks are being used, and it's in a table and thus overruled by the text.

[eggynack]

You can pick any companion you want as long as you're at least a 4th level druid, and the adjustment doesn't reduce your effective druid level to 0 or lower. Counting Natural Bond, a 4th level Druid can get a Brown Bear companion. The minimum Druid level in the column headers are only there as an easy reference assuming only the core rulebooks are being used, and it's in a table and thus overruled by the text.
The issue is that natural bond doesn't count. Your effective druid level for this purpose isn't increased by the feat, as the feat only increases effective druid level for bonus purposes. The terminology used in natural bond, and the terminology used in both the animal companion, and the celestial companion, are different. A natural bonded celestial brown bear on a 7th level druid has an effective level of zero for the purposes of determining this particular characteristic, and that makes it an illegal choice.

[lunar2]

"A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals. Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)"

You can pick any companion you want as long as you're at least a 4th level druid, and the adjustment doesn't reduce your effective druid level to 0 or lower. Counting Natural Bond, a 4th level Druid can get a Brown Bear companion. The minimum Druid level in the column headers are only there as an easy reference assuming only the core rulebooks are being used, and it's in a table and thus overruled by the text.

assuming natural bond counts for animal companion selection, you can't use it to get a brown bear at level 4.

there is no way to arrange the numbers 4, +3, and -6 that never falls below 1 (meaning you can't get the companion) or goes above 4 (where natural bond doesn't work). you can't split the level penalty from the animal companion (except possibly for templated companions, since they explicitly apply an extra penalty, instead of increasing the existing penalty), so your numbers have to stay between 1 and your actual druid level at all points of the equation.

now, at level 7, if natural bond counts towards companion selection, you can have the celestial brown bear companion (7-6+3-1=3).

[clericgirl]

Undeath gives you more turn undead uses, right? I wouldn't. More so since Planning also gives you the prereq for Extend spell.

Now, here's a question, planning is giving you extend spell, and your human which accounts for Persist and DMM. Martial weapons proficiency covers your 3rd level feat. What's your 6th level feat, and did you take flaws at level 1 for bonus feats and if so, what did you grab?

Depending you may want to think about retraining. If you can get Item familiar that opens up a lot of fun with crafting magic items for half cost or less for yourself and maybe the other party members. Apart from that, make sure you have power attack for damage output, and then, load up on Extra Turning hits to get more uses of persist a day.

Oh, and I almost forgot one spell for Persisting. Lesser Vigor, makes HP a per encounter resource instead of a per day resource.

we are using path finder feat progression though it's a 3.5 game.

Here are my feats.

Extra Turning, Extend Spell,
Martial weapon proficiency Great sword,
Divine Meta-Persistent Spell,
Persistent Spell, Power attack,
Heighten Spell,

not in order taken obviously.

Dm won't let me grab a new weapon so I'm stuck with keening and flaming. So far it's not been too bad.

[Threadnaught]

As for natural bond providing any capacity to select animal companions outside of your range, it does not. Natural bond increases effective druid level, "for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives." Not among those purposes is selecting better animal companions, and as I've proved that a high effective druid level is necessary for animal companion selection, this just doesn't work.

If it were just about increasing an AC's HD and related stuff, why doesn't it just say "natural armor" instead of "other bonuses"?

Better creature does fit into "other bonuses", as it's an AC related bonus that a Druid gets with more Druid levels. Though with all the Natural Bond abuse going off here, I really want to keep this quiet.

[eggynack]

If it were just about increasing an AC's HD and related stuff, why doesn't it just say "natural armor" instead of "other bonuses"?

Better creature does fit into "other bonuses", as it's an AC related bonus that a Druid gets with more Druid levels. Though with all the Natural Bond abuse going off here, I really want to keep this quiet.
It doesn't really seem like an "other bonus" to me. In fact, I could say that this is not a bonus at all, as the glossary defines it as, "A positive modifier to a die roll." As for drawing some sort of logical conclusion from phrasing, I ask, why did they not simply phrase it the way the PHB did, as, "applying the indicated adjustment to the druid’s level for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities," if they had the intent of just making natural bond provide everything? As for why they did it the way they did, I can only posit that they were keeping their options open for some purpose, and that purpose may even be present in some book, though I am not as yet aware of it.

[shadowseve]

My final conlusion to the whole natural bond thing plus celestial bear argument is quite simple.

Math wise it all ads up to a level 3 celestial brown bear with a level 7 druid or a level 4 brown bear without the celestial template.

Let's take a look at the three main arguments.

Eggynack states that a level 7 druid would take a full -7 to their druid level for taking a celestial brown bear. 7-6 for the normal brown bear + a -1 for the exalted companion. So 7-7=0 level companion. However; then natural bond would apply a pllus 3. 7-7+3=3rd level brown bear.

Another presentation was the druild leve 7 plus natures bond. 7+3=10 or 10/7 as he put it. Enter in the penalties for a celestial brown bear. 7+3=10. 10-7 for brown bear and exalted companion = 3.
So a level 7 character with a level 3 brown bear.

Last major example. Level 7 druid with a brown bear. 7-6+3=4. then you take away the -1 for the exalted template 4-1=3. again a 3rd level brown bear.

Soooo how can you not have a celestial brown bear at level 7?

This brings up a point I made earlier too many ways to interpret the rules. in the end It's a decision between the dm and player.

Edit:
I still agree with eggy that there is no rule that states a bear with a 3 int could not retrain it's feats based on the rules in the PHB II.

[eggynack]

My final conlusion to the whole natural bond thing plus celestial bear argument is quite simple.

Math wise it all ads up to a level 3 celestial brown bear with a level 7 druid or a level 4 brown bear without the celestial template.

Let's take a look at the three main arguments.

Eggynack states that a level 7 druid would take a full -7 to their druid level for taking a celestial brown bear. 7-6 for the normal brown bear + a -1 for the exalted companion. So 7-7=0 level companion. However; then natural bond would apply a pllus 3. 7-7+3=3rd level brown bear.

Another presentation was the druild leve 7 plus natures bond. 7+3=10 or 10/7 as he put it. Enter in the penalties for a celestial brown bear. 7+3=10. 10-7 for brown bear and exalted companion = 3.
So a level 7 character with a level 3 brown bear.

Last major example. Level 7 druid with a brown bear. 7-6+3=4. then you take away the -1 for the exalted template 4-1=3. again a 3rd level brown bear.

Soooo how can you not have a celestial brown bear at level 7?

This brings up a point I made earlier too many ways to interpret the rules. in the end It's a decision between the dm and player.
My argument is a pretty simple one, I think. Natural bond just doesn't impact effective druid level for the purposes of animal companion selection, as the feat never lists that among the things it boosts. I'd give particular semantic arguments, but I think I've presented enough of those in past posts that it's unnecessary.

[shadowseve]

My argument is a pretty simple one, I think. Natural bond just doesn't impact effective druid level for the purposes of animal companion selection, as the feat never lists that among the things it boosts. I'd give particular semantic arguments, but I think I've presented enough of those in past posts that it's unnecessary.


I agree that I think this argument has been beaten into the ground enough.

I'm still curious if anyone has anymore input on how the cleric can be boosted to help match the druid. She was asked about her feats and posted them, yet has received no feedback. Cleric is a class I'm interested in as well in the future so I would love to see some feedback on the feats she selected. If she removes the martial weapon proficiency due to persisting lesser holy, what would be a good replacement? To me heighten spell seems good but there might be better at her level.

[clericgirl]

Spells I recommend for Persisting.

Righteous Might.

Divine Power.

Holy Transformation.

Displacement.

Haste.

Wraith Strike.



Spells I recommend for Extending on a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell.

Greater Magic Weapon.

Magic Vestment.

Greater Luminous Armor.



A Monk's Belt level 1 is a good investment short term, boosting your AC more then armor will. At higher levels when you can afford Heavy Fortification and Freedom of Movement properties, investing in actual armor is a good idea again. A +1 suit of any light armor you fancy with armor spikes of useful ability's, warning, smoking, defensive, style, ext, and a useful augmentation crystal (and maybe a second round of magic vestments to make the greater version work.) offering heavy fortification or freedom of movement or both are better then the AC you were getting from the Monks belt.

how can I persist wraith strike when it's not a cleric spell? Same with haste, displacement?

Edit:
I'm also curious about the feat selection I posted earlier. What would be a good trade for marital weapon proficiency?

[LordBlades]

Your claim here, that you're getting a completely typical animal, doesn't really make sense. Exalted companion says that you pick something off of the expanded list when you call forth a companion. Moreover, the -1 to druid level uses the same exact terminology as standard alternative companions do, and, in addition to the explicit limitation that is given by the "4th level or higher"'s, there is the broader limitation on animal companion that states, "If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion." So that part of your argument is incorrect also.

Edit: As for natural bond providing any capacity to select animal companions outside of your range, it does not. Natural bond increases effective druid level, "for the purpose of determining the bonus Hit Dice, extra tricks, special abilities, and other bonuses that your animal companion receives." Not among those purposes is selecting better animal companions, and as I've proved that a high effective druid level is necessary for animal companion selection, this just doesn't work.

Upon looking over druid Animal Companion entry again, I tend to agree with you about the Celestial bit. The text mostly uses 'powers' but 'characteristics and special abilities' does appear.

On Natural Spell however, specificaly the 'other bonuses' part: if you use the glossary definution of bonus then it excludes nat armor and str/dex bonus as these don't apply to die rolls. If you use plain english 'bonus' then I believe that interpreting the ability to select a stronger animal companion earlier as a bonus is not unreasonable(by no means RAW or RAI, RAW on Natural Bond is a bit stupid IMO and RAI isn't clear, just about as reasonable as the opposite interpretation).

[eggynack]

On Natural Spell however, specificaly the 'other bonuses' part: if you use the glossary definution of bonus then it excludes nat armor and str/dex bonus as these don't apply to die rolls.
Yes, they do. Natural armor applies to attack rolls (though it does so negatively from the attacker's perspective), and strength and dexterity apply to a bunch of stuff. In fact, both of those things appear in the book with the word bonus right next to them hereabouts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers). These are about as much of a bonus as a bonus can be, within the context of the game. Thus, as the definition has maintained its integrity, I think the overall argument holds up.

[clericgirl]

my poor thread has been hijacked. Should I make a new thread to get further help?

[eggynack]

my poor thread has been hijacked. Should I make a new thread to get help?
I dunno, someone who isn't me will probably have some sort of answer at some point. Clerics just be not in my wheelhouse, owing partially to their overall tactics, and also partially to the fact that the cleric handbook's spell section is woefully low in information. In the meantime, I suspect that altering your domains would be more relevant, though ditching MWP is a very good idea. You're in a bit of an awkward spot here, trying to compete with a druid in their area of greatest strength. You could try to push things to the limit, really break the game over your melee cleric shaped knee, but I suspect you'd be unsuccessful. A better idea might be focusing on things that druids aren't as good at. Lesser planar ally, for example, is pretty sweet, though druids actually do kinda have access to part of it.

In a bigger way, this is where domains would come in. Trading out a bit of your domains' focus on persist stuff for something like the spell domain, or even the magic domain, would make a big difference. You're at level seven, after all, which means that the spell domain would provide limited access to all wizard spells of 2nd level and under. It doesn't sound like much, but it can cover a lot of ground. I mean, those are levels that get you rope trick, silent image, and tongues. Those are effects that druids just don't get easy access to. It's not like this would pull much in the way of resources either, as you're already running a couple of weak feats that could be converted to what you were getting from domains.

[bekeleven]

General cleric advice: Consider pride domain. It's the best domain. It cuts down your autodeath chance when targeted from 1/20 to 1/400. Other methods generally include save replacers (Tome of Battle Items, possibly combined with Undersong), high level spells (Surge of fortune anyone?) and/or obscure domains (Destiny Domain's granted power, plus its granted spells starting around 6th level).

If you take none of those, at least prepare resurgence and hope you get actions after the enemy kills you. Can you tell save-or-die is on my mind?


IF I am correct in your "normal/ non wild shaped self" and you took str hit and went bear then the penalty would no longer apply since it's replaced with the animals. However; if you took a wis hit then it would still apply. My reasoning on that would be you still keep your wis cha and int during your "shift". At least that is what makes sense. But what makes sense doesn't always apply to RAW.


The answer is that there just ain't nothin' man. Completely ambiguous. Does changing your ability score overwrite the damage or include it? There're no rules to guide you down that path. That there is some dangerous road, and there's lots of it out there, especially when you get deep into wild shape.

Ability penalties (poison et al) are instantaneous effects, and effectively disappear when you enter wild shape, as your (modified) ability scores are replaced with the ability scores of your form. Penalties taken while wild shaped probably apply after you leave, however; the wording doesn't address it and imo being weaker = being weaker should be the default action when rules are silent.

[eggynack]

Ability penalties (poison et al) are instantaneous effects, and effectively disappear when you enter wild shape, as your (modified) ability scores are replaced with the ability scores of your form. Penalties taken while wild shaped probably apply after you leave, however; the wording doesn't address it and imo being weaker = being weaker should be the default action when rules are silent.
It's pretty odd to consider ability penalties purely as instantaneous effects, particularly as the damage can be both healed over time, and removed directly. The former especially seems relevant. That's the major issue, I think. Is the ability penalty just a fundamental part of the druid now, as much as the regular score was originally, or is it an external body, acting on the druid regardless of form? While the poison attack is definitely an instantaneous effect, I can't really see any evidence that the poison itself is instantaneous, and the healing factor gives real indication that it is not instantaneous. This is more complicated than you're making it out to be, I think. I tend towards the side you're presenting in general, but I can't say that it's anywhere near an unambiguous thing.

[bekeleven]

It's pretty odd to consider ability penalties purely as instantaneous effects, particularly as the damage can be both healed over time, and removed directly. The former especially seems relevant. That's the major issue, I think. Is the ability penalty just a fundamental part of the druid now, as much as the regular score was originally, or is it an external body, acting on the druid regardless of form? While the poison attack is definitely an instantaneous effect, I can't really see any evidence that the poison itself is instantaneous, and the healing factor gives real indication that it is not instantaneous. This is more complicated than you're making it out to be, I think. I tend towards the side you're presenting in general, but I can't say that it's anywhere near an unambiguous thing.

Ability damage changes your ability score instantaneously. The alternatives are that the ability damage given by a poison or a spell have either permanent duration or some other specified duration. These ability score damages effectively act as a modifier to your ability score, which is replaced wholesale.

As another way to look at it, say a spell damages both your hit points and your strength. These types of damage are treated similarly in many ways (problems at 0, heal slowly naturally, can be healed by spells...). Look at what alternate form says about each: "The creature retains its hit points" vs "The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form."

[eggynack]

Ability damage changes your ability score instantaneously. The alternatives are that the ability damage given by a poison or a spell have either permanent duration or some other specified duration. These ability score damages act as a modifier to your ability score, which is replaced wholesale.

There actually is a specified duration, in a sense. The damage is restored at a rate of one/day, so each point could be said to have a duration of one day, plus one more day for each point that's already been given a duration, or something like that. The ability damage is explicitly temporary, after all, so it could be considered an outside entity acting on the druid. I suppose that, in that model, drain would actually be restored by wild shape, or something like that. That's even more silly.

[ereinion]

I see that people are advising the OP to drop Martial Weapon Proficiency and instead extending Holy Transformation which (according to some posts) give Martial Weapon Proficiency (all) because it grants the outsider-type.

However, from what I read in the SRD:


An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
(...)
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.

Won't the martial weapon proficiency fail to be granted since it is not part of the character's "creature entry" (character sheet)?

[shadowseve]

I see that people are advising the OP to drop Martial Weapon Proficiency and instead extending Holy Transformation which (according to some posts) give Martial Weapon Proficiency (all) because it grants the outsider-type.

However, from what I read in the SRD:

Won't the martial weapon proficiency fail to be granted since it is not part of the character's "creature entry" (character sheet)?


It's not noted that they wouldn't get martial weapon proficiency. Sense the creature type changes completely to outsider I see no reason she wouldn't get the proficiency with all martial weapons. There's nothing saying she wouldn't.

[Sir Chuckles]

I see that people are advising the OP to drop Martial Weapon Proficiency and instead extending Holy Transformation which (according to some posts) give Martial Weapon Proficiency (all) because it grants the outsider-type.

However, from what I read in the SRD:

Won't the martial weapon proficiency fail to be granted since it is not part of the character's "creature entry" (character sheet)?

I don't see why.
"Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry." clearly states "all simple and martial weapons".

[TuggyNE]

I see that people are advising the OP to drop Martial Weapon Proficiency and instead extending Holy Transformation which (according to some posts) give Martial Weapon Proficiency (all) because it grants the outsider-type.

However, from what I read in the SRD:

Won't the martial weapon proficiency fail to be granted since it is not part of the character's "creature entry" (character sheet)?

You have it backwards. The only way martial weapon proficiency would not be granted is if the entry specifically stated it wasn't. Otherwise, all entries of every creature ever* would need to restate all their proficiencies in order to benefit from the general rules granting those proficiencies. Not one of them* does so.

*As far as I know, neither statement is hyperbole at all.

[ereinion]

But isn't it implied from the the character's class description that those proficiencies are not granted? I.e. a cleric is granted proficiency with all simple weapons (and one martial weapon if it takes the war domain). Based on this I'd say it is stated on the character's / creature's sheet that it doesn't have martial weapon proficiency and won't get it from a temporary transformation? Or do you mean to say that by the strict letter of the rules it'd have to say explicitly in the creature entry that it doesn't have martial weapon proficiency, otherwise it gains it while having the outsider-type? Are there even any creatures where it is stated what abilities they don't have?

I'm sorry if I am being a bit dense, but the latter interpretation of the rule just seems so counter-intuitive to me...

[ryu]

But isn't it implied from the the character's class description that those proficiencies are not granted? I.e. a cleric is granted proficiency with all simple weapons (and one martial weapon if it takes the war domain). Based on this I'd say it is stated on the character's / creature's sheet that it doesn't have martial weapon proficiency and won't get it from a temporary transformation? Or do you mean to say that by the strict letter of the rules it'd have to say explicitly in the creature entry that it doesn't have martial weapon proficiency, otherwise it gains it while having the outsider-type? Are there even any creatures where it is stated what abilities they don't have?

I'm sorry if I am being a bit dense, but the latter interpretation of the rule just seems so counter-intuitive to me...

Proficiency with weapons is something that can come and go with transformations. It happens with the ability to fly, dig, have a swim-speed, have a climb-speed, several new sense types, and countless other things it makes no sense for the subject to know how to properly use let alone fully acclimate to. Why on earth should basic understanding of weapon use be any different by comparison?

[eggynack]

But isn't it implied from the the character's class description that those proficiencies are not granted? I.e. a cleric is granted proficiency with all simple weapons (and one martial weapon if it takes the war domain). Based on this I'd say it is stated on the character's / creature's sheet that it doesn't have martial weapon proficiency and won't get it from a temporary transformation? Or do you mean to say that by the strict letter of the rules it'd have to say explicitly in the creature entry that it doesn't have martial weapon proficiency, otherwise it gains it while having the outsider-type? Are there even any creatures where it is stated what abilities they don't have?

I'm sorry if I am being a bit dense, but the latter interpretation of the rule just seems so counter-intuitive to me...
Humanoids are somewhat unique, in that their proficiencies are, "all simple weapons, or by character class." This means that the replacement effect you're describing would occur on a humanoid. Outsiders, however, lack such a caveat. They just have martial weapon proficiency no matter what. Incidentally, I'm not entirely sure why this character would take martial weapon proficiency over exotic. Unlike armor proficiencies, picking up the higher level feats doesn't require the lower level feats as prerequisites. It's actually kinda odd, when you consider the fact that armor proficiencies tend not to have strict advantages or disadvantages (even if medium is the worst), while weapon proficiencies do.

[clericgirl]

Humanoids are somewhat unique, in that their proficiencies are, "all simple weapons, or by character class." This means that the replacement effect you're describing would occur on a humanoid. Outsiders, however, lack such a caveat. They just have martial weapon proficiency no matter what. Incidentally, I'm not entirely sure why this character would take martial weapon proficiency over exotic. Unlike armor proficiencies, picking up the higher level feats doesn't require the lower level feats as prerequisites. It's actually kinda odd, when you consider the fact that armor proficiencies tend not to have strict advantages or disadvantages (even if medium is the worst), while weapon proficiencies do.

great swords (and short swords if I'm dual wielding) are my fav weapon eggynack so I would take that over anything in exotic any day. It's a matter of character choice. doesn't matter much since I'll prob swap to war domain and pleasure domain. I'll get martial weapon prof no matter what. PLus being an persisted outsider solves that anyways.

[HalfQuart]

Sounds like you're going a different route anyway, but you could swap the greatsword for a jovar: exotic 2-hander from Planar Handbook with 2d6 18-20/x2 -- would work nicely with your keen enchantment. I think you can probably find something better than a weapon proficiency, but if not that might be a good/simple switch. And of course if you really want a greatsword, then take the greatsword... you are a whole lot more likely to find magic greatswords in treasure than you are a magic jovar. :-)

[TuggyNE]

Or do you mean to say that by the strict letter of the rules it'd have to say explicitly in the creature entry that it doesn't have martial weapon proficiency, otherwise it gains it while having the outsider-type?

This, yes.


Are there even any creatures where it is stated what abilities they don't have?

Traits in general? Yes: Elans do not have darkvision per their type (Aberration), psicrystals do not have darkvision or low-light vision per their type (Construct), air gnomes and air goblins do not breathe per their type (Humanoid), and so forth. Proficiencies? I don't know of any, but there might be some; the possibility was left open.

[Threadnaught]

my poor thread has been hijacked. Should I make a new thread to get further help?

No, no. Your thread is fine. It hasn't been hijacked, it has been temporarily confiscated by people who are discussing whether or not the Druid's build is entirely legal. Whether we're helping you get more out o your Cleric, or trying to tone down the Druid, it's all for your benefit and still completely on topic.

[Vogonjeltz]

Dispel magic seldom "hard counters" anything, since an equal-level caster will have about a 50% chance of dispelling any given spell. It certainly does not hard counter the animal companion itself, since the companion and its VoP are not spell effects, and only protection from evil will block the summons (check the exact wording of the other three) and no protection spell will block the companion at all.

Sorry I was short handing all spells that dispel. That being said, the caster in question need only be specialized in dispelling (IotSV) or have more CL boosters, or get lucky :). Also AMF says no to any buffs, and cuts the legs out from under a vast number of offensive Druid spells. The real problem is that having opponents who exploit the weaknesses of casters of any stripe is the DMs job. Trying to improve Cleric does nothing if the DM continues to cater to another character class and their play style.

Incidentally, although biffonicus addressed this, the animal companion only has the base animal features, those can not be changes.


While D&D is a cooperative game, you're still competing in a sense with the rest of the party for spotlight time and contribution. If a single character does most of the work on a regular basis encounters are still overcome, story still progresses but it's not very fun for most people involved.

That is a DM problem. They are perfectly capable of crafting challenges that are best solved by the other classes (try throwing some undead at them eh?), but it's not like there are challenges that any particular class is completely incapable of helping against.


Intent is irrelevant. As is mentioned in the PHB glossary, character and creature are used interchangeably, and the definition given to character there applies to animal companions. There are thus many lines that allow this. You can't use what you want to be so, and what you think people who designed the game wanted, as a substitute for what is.

No this is incorrect, animal companions are animal companions, not characters. Retraining is a DM fiat option that only applies to player characters, not their retainers, pets, or even NPCs.

Everything else doesn't require any mechanics for retraining because the DM makes the non player entities and already has full control over what they are or aren't at any given moment.

[eggynack]

No this is incorrect, animal companions are animal companions, not characters. Retraining is a DM fiat option that only applies to player characters, not their retainers, pets, or even NPCs.

As you are presented in my quote by words that explicitly and directly prove you wrong on the idea that animal companions are not characters, the onus is really on you to prove any part of this. And you haven't. Animal companions are animal companions, obviously, but animal companions are also characters, because the book says they are. Moreover, retraining is far from a DM fiat option, as it's given, again, explicit and direct rules for its use. There is no indication that it applies solely to PC's, and if the animal companion wants to take VoP, presumably with input from his druidic partner, that is entirely his prerogative.

Edit: Incidentally, as the citiation wasn't explicitly laid out for you in that quote, the words used by the glossary to define character are, " A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting."

[cheetah]

This is the debate that never ends....It goes one and on my friends.....

[eggynack]

This is the debate that never ends....It goes one and on my friends.....
Yeah, I'd figured that that argument was pretty much over. I still think that now. It seems like a pretty airtight position to me.

[ryu]

This is the debate that never ends....It goes one and on my friends.....

I think the most important question to ask at this point is if any of us started the fire.

[cheetah]

I think the most important question to ask at this point is if any of us started the fire.


We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

Sorry mates, couldn't resist.

[GreyBlack]

I will take that belt and spells into consideration though I won't have righteous might for a few more levels. I may for now until I can get the rods persit divine power divine favor and lesser holy transformation.

Should I swap my domains from planning and undeath?

As I've been arguing, you should switch for planning and time. If you're a positive cleric, you get little to no benefit from the spell list in undeath, although I suppose you could be neutral. If you are neutral, I would switch for undeath and time.

Why time, you may ask? Time gives two huge advantages to the DMM cleric: Haste (persist over the day and everyone loves you) and Freedom of Movement (can't be grappled, move freely in heavy armor, ignore several powerful effects). Those two spells alone are worth it for a persist cleric.

Additionally, you get the best evocation spell ever, Contingency. "Oh, poopy. I took some damage. I'll just port in a (insert creature here)." Alternatively, gate to your own personal plane. Or any number of things, you can use your imagination.

Only problem is the overlap between Planning and Time in their 9 slot, Time Stop. From there, the world is your playground. Let the druid have his fun until you get contingency (command, greater). Then you shall hold the power.

[eggynack]

Why time, you may ask? Time gives two huge advantages to the DMM cleric: Haste (persist over the day and everyone loves you) and Freedom of Movement (can't be grappled, move freely in heavy armor, ignore several powerful effects). Those two spells alone are worth it for a persist cleric.

Freedom of movement is on the cleric list, and it seems kinda long in duration to be a great persist target. Not bad, certainly, because I really hate 10 minutes/level as a duration, but it's not exactly on the scale of rounds or minutes/level. Also, I don't think that haste can be persisted, because close isn't a fixed range.

[lunar2]

isn't heart of water supposed to be better to cast than freedom of movement, anyway?

[eggynack]

isn't heart of water supposed to be better to cast than freedom of movement, anyway?
Yes, but it is not on the cleric list, and neither is it within any domain.

[Vogonjeltz]

As you are presented in my quote by words that explicitly and directly prove you wrong on the idea that animal companions are not characters, the onus is really on you to prove any part of this. And you haven't. Animal companions are animal companions, obviously, but animal companions are also characters, because the book says they are. Moreover, retraining is far from a DM fiat option, as it's given, again, explicit and direct rules for its use. There is no indication that it applies solely to PC's, and if the animal companion wants to take VoP, presumably with input from his druidic partner, that is entirely his prerogative.

Edit: Incidentally, as the citiation wasn't explicitly laid out for you in that quote, the words used by the glossary to define character are, " A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting."

Let me repeat: animal companions are the base animal. That means zero customization, by the rules as written they can not retrain.

That is what you call an airtight case eggynack.

*my employing even a cursory examination of the retraining chapter makes it clear that it is directed towards PCs, who are capable of gaining class levels, indeed gaining a level is a requirement, and nothing else.

[LordBlades]

Let me repeat: animal companions are the basic animal. That means zero customization, by the rules as written they can not retrain.

That is what you call an airtight case eggynack.

Animal companions start out as typical for their kind. What happens afterward is governed by rules specific to the situation. If you argue that you can't retrain because a bear with retrained feats is different from a typicsl bear, would't that make the bear also immune to let's say Flesh to Stone? Because a stone bear is also different from a typical bear.

[Vogonjeltz]

Animal companions start out as typical for their kind. What happens afterward is governed by rules specific to the situation. If you argue that you can't retrain because a bear with retrained feats is different from a typicsl bear, would't that make the bear also immune to let's say Flesh to Stone? Because a stone bear is also different from a typical bear.

The rule book doesn't say they start, it says they are. And yes, a dead bear isn't an animal companion anymore if it ever once was.

[LordBlades]

The rule book doesn't say they start, it says they are. And yes, a dead bear isn't an animal companion anymore if it ever once was.

Exept flesh to stone doesn't kill you('subject is not dead' explicitly in the text), just turns you to stone. If a bear can't retrain because it's no longer typical, then it's immune to all buffs, debuffs and status effects for the same reasons.

[eggynack]

Let me repeat: animal companions are the base animal. That means zero customization, by the rules as written they can not retrain.

That is what you call an airtight case eggynack.

*my employing even a cursory examination of the retraining chapter makes it clear that it is directed towards PCs, who are capable of gaining class levels, indeed gaining a level is a requirement, and nothing else.
The base animal companion, as I've proven, is a character. Characters can retrain. As LordBlades points out, while you can't make alterations to an animal companion approaching, you have the prerogative to have the animal companion alter itself after it arrives, if it wishes. A typical celestial animal would have that ability, after all. As for it being directed at PC's, the terminology used for allowance doesn't restrict it in that manner, and as for gaining a level, that is equivalent to gaining an HD in this use.

[Vogonjeltz]

Exept flesh to stone doesn't kill you('subject is not dead' explicitly in the text), just turns you to stone. If a bear can't retrain because it's no longer typical, then it's immune to all buffs, debuffs and status effects for the same reasons.

Being turned to stone is not a feat, template, or special ability. Bears can not retrain because they aren't player characters. For that same reason they don't get wealth by level.


The base animal companion, as I've proven, is a character.

A character is not a player character. That is also defined in the glossary. The PHB II chapter on retraining is referring specifically to player characters, not just characters in general, as I proved.

[eggynack]

A character is not a player character. That is also defined in the glossary. The PHB II chapter on retraining is referring specifically to player characters, not just characters in general, as I proved.
No, you haven't proved that at all. You pretty much just said it. If you'd like to attempt to prove it, you may do so, but to all appearances the book only discusses characters, rather than player characters. The examples are all player characters, admittedly, but that does not a proof make, especially when the definitions are all sitting right there. The examples aren't the only things allowed, after all.

[lunar2]

any NPC could have need of retraining rules, as well. since NPCs follow the same rules as PCs as far as how they advance, a BBEG or a cohort for example could trade out a feat that has become useless like toughness for something with more bite, like martial study, using the same rules as the PCs. this is because they aren't being created from scratch, but being advanced from lower level. so without specific language that retraining rules only apply to player characters, they apply to all characters, which include animal companions. as for animal companions needing to be typical for their kind. the second you get the animal companion it ceases to be typical for its kind, by virtue of being an animal companion.

in fact, the language you are using to deny retraining is: "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind
except as noted in the sidebar on page 36."

in other words, as soon as the druid hits 2nd level, that rule no longer technically applies, because there is no similar language for higher level druids. so no, you have no RAW basis for your argument denying an animal companion the ability to retrain.

[Vogonjeltz]

any NPC could have need of retraining rules, as well. since NPCs follow the same rules as PCs as far as how they advance, a BBEG or a cohort for example could trade out a feat that has become useless like toughness for something with more bite, like martial study, using the same rules as the PCs. this is because they aren't being created from scratch, but being advanced from lower level. so without specific language that retraining rules only apply to player characters, they apply to all characters, which include animal companions. as for animal companions needing to be typical for their kind. the second you get the animal companion it ceases to be typical for its kind, by virtue of being an animal companion.

in fact, the language you are using to deny retraining is: "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind
except as noted in the sidebar on page 36."

in other words, as soon as the druid hits 2nd level, that rule no longer technically applies, because there is no similar language for higher level druids. so no, you have no RAW basis for your argument denying an animal companion the ability to retrain.

That makes the case even more firm against retraining. The only exception listed is that sidebar, which notably excludes any mention of feat retraining.


No, you haven't proved that at all. You pretty much just said it. If you'd like to attempt to prove it, you may do so, but to all appearances the book only discusses characters, rather than player characters. The examples are all player characters, admittedly, but that does not a proof make, especially when the definitions are all sitting right there. The examples aren't the only things allowed, after all.

If in pleases the court, I enter into evidence chapter 8 titled: "Rebuilding Your Character".

Beyond the title the language is most damning to the claim that companions may retrain: "While many DMs and players have created house rules for handling situations involving the reselection of feats..."

Note the use of the term re selection. One never selects feats for companions in the first place, therefore that Chapter explicitly excludes them as a protected category of things.

Exhibit 2: "The decision to retrain must be implemented before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied."

Animal companions do not gain levels, and are therefore ineligible for retraining.

Exhibit 3: "the process is similar to attaining a new level. In keeping with that concept, the retraining option can be chosen only during level advancement."

Note the careful phrasing. As animal companions to not gain character levels, there is no basis for asserting they are able to retrain.

[shadowseve]

That makes the case even more firm against retraining. The only exception listed is that sidebar, which notably excludes any mention of feat retraining.



If in pleases the court, I enter into evidence chapter 8 titled: "Rebuilding Your Character".

Beyond the title the language is most damning to the claim that companions may retrain: "While many DMs and players have created house rules for handling situations involving the reselection of feats..."

Note the use of the term re selection. One never selects feats for companions in the first place, therefore that Chapter explicitly excludes them as a protected category of things.

Exhibit 2: "The decision to retrain must be implemented before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied."

Animal companions do not gain levels, and are therefore ineligible for retraining.

Exhibit 3: "the process is similar to attaining a new level. In keeping with that concept, the retraining option can be chosen only during level advancement."

Note the careful phrasing. As animal companions to not gain character levels, there is no basis for asserting they are able to retrain.

THE DRUID’S ANIMAL COMPANION
Class Bonus Natural Str/Dex Bonus
LeveHD Armor Adj. Adj. Tricks Special
1st–2nd +0 +0 +0 1 Link, share spells
3rd–5th +2 +2 +1 2 Evasion
6th–8th +4 +4 +2 3 Devotion
9th–11th +6 +6 +3 4 Multiattack
12th–14th +8 +8 +4 5
15th–17th +10 +10 +5 6 Improved evasion
18th–20th +12 +12 +6 7

OH looks like they do Gain levels after all.

This argument is done. Let it go seriously. The original point of this post has been met and Clericgirl got the info she needed.

[Vogonjeltz]

any NPC could have need of retraining rules, as well. since NPCs follow the same rules as PCs as far as how they advance, a BBEG or a cohort for example could trade out a feat that has become useless like toughness for something with more bite, like martial study, using the same rules as the PCs. this is because they aren't being created from scratch, but being advanced from lower level. so without specific language that retraining rules only apply to player characters, they apply to all characters, which include animal companions. as for animal companions needing to be typical for their kind. the second you get the animal companion it ceases to be typical for its kind, by virtue of being an animal companion.

in fact, the language you are using to deny retraining is: "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind
except as noted in the sidebar on page 36."

in other words, as soon as the druid hits 2nd level, that rule no longer technically applies, because there is no similar language for higher level druids. so no, you have no RAW basis for your argument denying an animal companion the ability to retrain.


No, you haven't proved that at all. You pretty much just said it. If you'd like to attempt to prove it, you may do so, but to all appearances the book only discusses characters, rather than player characters. The examples are all player characters, admittedly, but that does not a proof make, especially when the definitions are all sitting right there. The examples aren't the only things allowed, after all.


THE DRUID’S ANIMAL COMPANION
Class Bonus Natural Str/Dex Bonus
LeveHD Armor Adj. Adj. Tricks Special
1st–2nd +0 +0 +0 1 Link, share spells
3rd–5th +2 +2 +1 2 Evasion
6th–8th +4 +4 +2 3 Devotion
9th–11th +6 +6 +3 4 Multiattack
12th–14th +8 +8 +4 5
15th–17th +10 +10 +5 6 Improved evasion
18th–20th +12 +12 +6 7

OH looks like they do Gain levels after all.

This argument is done. Let it go seriously. The original point of this post has been met and Clericgirl got the info she needed.

That's not the Companion gaining levels, it's the Druid.

[TuggyNE]

That makes the case even more firm against retraining. The only exception listed is that sidebar, which notably excludes any mention of feat retraining.

I think you missed the part where that only applies to first-level druids.


If in pleases the court, I enter into evidence chapter 8 titled: "Rebuilding Your Character".

Beyond the title the language is most damning to the claim that companions may retrain: "While many DMs and players have created house rules for handling situations involving the reselection of feats..."

Note the use of the term re selection. One never selects feats for companions in the first place, therefore that Chapter explicitly excludes them as a protected category of things.

That is strictly incorrect.


An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Those feats are selected, in the same way any other advanced monster's feats are.


Exhibit 2: "The decision to retrain must be implemented before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied."

Animal companions do not gain levels, and are therefore ineligible for retraining.

Exhibit 3: "the process is similar to attaining a new level. In keeping with that concept, the retraining option can be chosen only during level advancement."

Note the careful phrasing. As animal companions to not gain character levels, there is no basis for asserting they are able to retrain.

I'm dubious of this, since the bonus HD rules specifically call out "advancement", as noted. Unless you can give an iron-clad reason why "level advancement" cannot be equated with "bonus HD advancement", neither of these objections will work.

[shadowseve]

That's not the Companion gaining levels, it's the Druid.


Whatever... You guys can argue all you like. A monster's hd is known to determain it's level, your animal companion gains bonus hd therefore also rises in level. You can argue it either way.

[LordBlades]

Being turned to stone is not a feat, template, or special ability. Bears can not retrain because they aren't player characters. For that same reason they don't get wealth by level.



'Bears can't retrain because they're not PCs' is an entirely different argument than 'bears can't retrain because a retrained bear is no longer a typical bear'(which as I've stated makes little sense in the context of other rules that affect a creature during the course of the game).

[Vogonjeltz]

I think you missed the part where that only applies to first-level druids.

I'm looking at the chart on page 36, where does it say that the animals using the base statistics only applies to 1st level?



That is strictly incorrect.

Those feats are selected, in the same way any other advanced monster's feats are.

I'm dubious of this, since the bonus HD rules specifically call out "advancement", as noted. Unless you can give an iron-clad reason why "level advancement" cannot be equated with "bonus HD advancement", neither of these objections will work.

I was quoting the PHB 2, what specifically do you disagree with?

Advancement is not synonymous with level. Vow of poverty keys off character level in determining benefits.

Exalted feats can only be taken with DM permission, so it's not fait accompli

[eggynack]

I was quoting the PHB 2, what specifically do you disagree with?

Advancement is not synonymous with level. Vow of poverty keys off character level in determining benefits.
I think there's some issue here in what variety of level we're talking about. My research thus far has revealed that, whatever else may be occurring, our HD advancing animal companion is definitely increasing its effective character level. I have a reasonable quantity of citations on that one, if you'd like me to present them. I posit that effective character level is actually a form of level, such that it interacts with retraining in an appropriate manner, as the type of level is never defined, and as it thus takes on the broadest possible form. The thing about vow of poverty keying off of character level is somewhat troubling, I think, as in your interpretation, it would mean that a character running RHD would not gain the full benefits of VoP. As is, I should probably send a PM to Urpriest at some point, as his handbook claims that HD and character level hold equivalency, and he may have a citiation for that.


Exalted feats can only be taken with DM permission, so it's not fait accompli
I've gotta figure that a celestial creature would be pretty much in the clear in terms of taking exalted feats, especially as the creature's master has already taken at least one.

[Vogonjeltz]

I think there's some issue here in what variety of level we're talking about. My research thus far has revealed that, whatever else may be occurring, our HD advancing animal companion is definitely increasing its effective character level. I have a reasonable quantity of citations on that one, if you'd like me to present them. I posit that effective character level is actually a form of level, such that it interacts with retraining in an appropriate manner, as the type of level is never defined, and as it thus takes on the broadest possible form. The thing about vow of poverty keying off of character level is somewhat troubling, I think, as in your interpretation, it would mean that a character running RHD would not gain the full benefits of VoP. As is, I should probably send a PM to Urpriest at some point, as his handbook claims that HD and character level hold equivalency, and he may have a citiation for that.

I've gotta figure that a celestial creature would be pretty much in the clear in terms of taking exalted feats, especially as the creature's master has already taken at least one.

ECL is not character level. VoP doesn't work off ECL, it works off character level.

The celestial is mechanically fine for the feats (as it must be good), but being mechanically fine doesn't bypass the requirement to seek the DMs permission.

[eggynack]

ECL is not character level. VoP doesn't work off ECL, it works off character level.

That argument was more for the purposes of retraining than VoP. The claim at work is that there is a lower standard than character level where retraining is at hand. I will presumably need to construct a higher order of proof for the other claim.

[Vogonjeltz]

That argument was more for the purposes of retraining than VoP. The claim at work is that there is a lower standard than character level where retraining is at hand. I will presumably need to construct a higher order of proof for the other claim.

There's no lower standard, retraining requires the PC to be gaining a level, the bonus HD for Druid companions are not levels. Nor do the companions have levels to begin with.

[eggynack]

There's no lower standard, retraining requires the PC to be gaining a level, the bonus HD for Druid companions are not levels. Nor do the companions have levels to begin with.
And I'm not sure that you're correct about that. Animal companions definitely do have an effective character level, and that is at least some form of level. The lower standard at work is level versus character level.

[TuggyNE]

I'm looking at the chart on page 36, where does it say that the animals using the base statistics only applies to 1st level?


A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below.

Underlined for emphasis, because apparently this was missed previously.


I was quoting the PHB 2, what specifically do you disagree with?

Your conclusion, because it was based on false premises as noted subsequently in my reply. Which I will restate: you argued that animal companions never select feats and are thus ineligible for retraining, but because a) they explicitly advance the same way any other creature does by HD and b) creatures select feats when advancing by HD at appropriate levels, this cannot be the case.


Advancement is not synonymous with level. Vow of poverty keys off character level in determining benefits.

Exalted feats can only be taken with DM permission, so it's not fait accompli

And now you're talking about VoP ... why? :smallconfused: I was discussing solely advancement by bonus HD in the context of feat retraining; you claimed that animal companions cannot advance and thus cannot qualify, but the text of their bonus HD ability clearly says that they do, on both counts. VoP is just a random distraction here.

(And, of course, there's no real point in worrying about DM permission when the character apparently already received it, and no point bothering about "character level" when that's defined for all monsters, even non-playable characters, as class levels + racial HD. Or in other words, racial HD.)

Oh, one more thing. Advancement, in D&D terms, refers generally to one of three things: advancing by racial HD (or bonus HD), advancing by class levels, or advancing by means of template application. Of those, only templates are not synonymous with levels, and no one is trying to argue the Celestial template is the reason the bear qualifies.

[Threadnaught]

Oh, one more thing. Advancement, in D&D terms, refers generally to one of three things: advancing by racial HD (or bonus HD), advancing by class levels, or advancing by means of template application. Of those, only templates are not synonymous with levels, and no one is trying to argue the Celestial template is the reason the bear qualifies.

I am.

Celestial Creatures always have at least 3 Intelligence. That's PC level Intelligence, therefore anything a PC of 3 Intelligence can learn, a Celestial Bear can also learn.
Not sure if they can speak or not though.


@Vogonjeltz This is all so abusive, so if I take a creature that has like 50RHD, I only count as a level 1 Character for xp purposes? And how do you handle Leadership?

[lunar2]

animal companions are characters


character: A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy
game setting. The words “character” and “creature” are often used
synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could
be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as
opposed to an object)

they have levels


level: A measure of advancement or power applied to several
areas of the game. See caster level, character level, class level, and
spell level.

specifically, they do not have class levels (since they only have RHD), nor an effective character level (since only PCs and cohorts have an ECL), but they do have a character level.

additionally, from the monster manual on improving monsters:


If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multi-
class characters described on pages 59–60 of the Player’s Handbook.
The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus
its racial Hit Dice. For example, an ogre normally has 4 HD. If it
picks up one level of barbarian, it becomes a creature of 5 Hit Dice:
4d8 HD for its ogre levels, plus 1d12 HD for its barbarian level. A
creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature
never takes XP penalties for having it. Additional Hit Dice gained
from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size.

creatures' RHD interact with the rules just like class levels, to the point that a creature with both RHD and class levels is treated as a multiclass character.

but let's skip all this nonsense. dark chaos shuffle, psychic reformation, and limited wish can all replace feats with other feats (psychic reformation is a 4th level power, equivalent to a 4th level spell, and therefore within the power of limited wish to duplicate). so even if a DM were to houserule that the animal companion can't retrain, there are other methods to get the same result. they just all happen to be more expensive.

[Agamemmnoth]

This is the debate that never ends....It goes one and on my friends.....


nuff said.

[Vogonjeltz]

And I'm not sure that you're correct about that. Animal companions definitely do have an effective character level, and that is at least some form of level. The lower standard at work is level versus character level.

Effective Character Level (ECL) is defined: This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. That doesn't say anything about it being a form of level, instead it states that ECL is a means for comparison.


A character’s ECL affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experience the character must have before gaining a new level, and the character’s starting equipment.

That is the extent to which ECL impacts the game. Experience and Starting gear (assuming it is even a PC and allowed to have starting gear, animal companions certainly do not)


Underlined for emphasis, because apparently this was missed previously.

My point was that I couldn't find that assertion in the book itself, which is where I was hoping you could redirect me.


Your conclusion, because it was based on false premises as noted subsequently in my reply. Which I will restate: you argued that animal companions never select feats and are thus ineligible for retraining, but because a) they explicitly advance the same way any other creature does by HD and b) creatures select feats when advancing by HD at appropriate levels, this cannot be the case.

I would concede they get feats from the bonus HD, but they do not gain levels, and gaining a level is the sole official method for retraining. House rules aside, if it doesn't gain a level, it can't retrain, and Bonus HD do not constitute levels.


And now you're talking about VoP ... why?

Because the companion gets feats via bonus HD (something I had missed initially), I had to address the possibility that the companion could, after gaining enough bonus hd from high druid levels, pick up sacred vow and vow of poverty. That the animal companion does not gain levels remains an impediment to it gaining any value from VoP. That's the only reason why.

I didn't bother quoting the rest because ECL isn't character level, and advancement of a monster isn't synonymous with character level precisely because RHD aren't levels.
Level


"Character level" is a character’s total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.

"Class level" is a character’s level in a particular class. For a character whose levels are all in the same class, character level and class level are the same.


@Vogonjeltz This is all so abusive, so if I take a creature that has like 50RHD, I only count as a level 1 Character for xp purposes? And how do you handle Leadership?

No, ECL covers experience requirements and starting gear (if any). It doesn't cover anything that's based purely on character level. By abusive did you mean a PC could abuse it?


animal companions are characters

character: A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy
game setting. The words “character” and “creature” are often used
synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could
be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as
opposed to an object)

All characters are creatures, not all creatures are characters. That's why that quite includes the phrase "are often used synonymously within these rules". That means not always, it also restricts it purely to the rules in the PHB. Retraining is from PHBII, and based purely on that quote it wouldn't be covered by that statement anyway (and even if it were, it's only a sometimes application, so lacking any other evidence there's nothing to show retraining applies to non-player characters, which animal companions are).


but they do have a character level.

Character levels are the combined number of class levels. Animals don't have any levels.


but let's skip all this nonsense. dark chaos shuffle, psychic reformation, and limited wish can all replace feats with other feats (psychic reformation is a 4th level power, equivalent to a 4th level spell, and therefore within the power of limited wish to duplicate). so even if a DM were to houserule that the animal companion can't retrain, there are other methods to get the same result. they just all happen to be more expensive.


and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.

Animal Companions never gain levels, so for the same reason Retraining is impossible, psychic reformation does nothing.

Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos may have some merit (for some reason I thought they were evil, but apparently not), however as those are two 8th level spells that aren't on the Druid list it'll cost 4900 (total) to swap one feat. To swap two feats for the two feats would total out to 9800gp, making this unfeasible until later levels (at which point it'd be easier to just have the creature pick up said feats by virtue of bonus HD, assuming the DM grants permission).

[eggynack]

Effective Character Level (ECL) is defined: This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. That doesn't say anything about it being a form of level, instead it states that ECL is a means for comparison.



That is the extent to which ECL impacts the game. Experience and Starting gear (assuming it is even a PC and allowed to have starting gear, animal companions certainly do not)
None of this really counters the idea that ECL is a form of level, which is an idea supported by the fact that level is in the name, and used in the same general definition as things like character level and class level (this is just to stave off arguments about terraforming, and its role in retraining).




All characters are creatures, not all creatures are characters. That's why that quite includes the phrase "are often used synonymously within these rules". That means not always, it also restricts it purely to the rules in the PHB. Retraining is from PHBII, and based purely on that quote it wouldn't be covered by that statement anyway (and even if it were, it's only a sometimes application, so lacking any other evidence there's nothing to show retraining applies to non-player characters, which animal companions are).
The part about character and creature being synonymous is irrelevant. Animal companions are characters within the definition of character. To elaborate, is my animal companion fictional? Yes. Is he an individual? Well, I don't see any other Josephson, my friendly celestial fleshraker's running around, so I'd have to say yes. Is he within the confines of a fantasy game setting? Obviously, and any argument that eliminates the companion's role as a character would also make player characters not characters. So, they are characters, as every standard is met. I could make other arguments about primary/secondary source, or what "within these rules" means, but it's all rather irrelevant, I think.

[lunar2]

Effective Character Level (ECL) is defined: This number represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the Player's Handbook. That doesn't say anything about it being a form of level, instead it states that ECL is a means for comparison.



That is the extent to which ECL impacts the game. Experience and Starting gear (assuming it is even a PC and allowed to have starting gear, animal companions certainly do not)



My point was that I couldn't find that assertion in the book itself, which is where I was hoping you could redirect me.



I would concede they get feats from the bonus HD, but they do not gain levels, and gaining a level is the sole official method for retraining. House rules aside, if it doesn't gain a level, it can't retrain, and Bonus HD do not constitute levels.



Because the companion gets feats via bonus HD (something I had missed initially), I had to address the possibility that the companion could, after gaining enough bonus hd from high druid levels, pick up sacred vow and vow of poverty. That the animal companion does not gain levels remains an impediment to it gaining any value from VoP. That's the only reason why.

I didn't bother quoting the rest because ECL isn't character level, and advancement of a monster isn't synonymous with character level precisely because RHD aren't levels.
Level





No, ECL covers experience requirements and starting gear (if any). It doesn't cover anything that's based purely on character level. By abusive did you mean a PC could abuse it?



All characters are creatures, not all creatures are characters. That's why that quite includes the phrase "are often used synonymously within these rules". That means not always, it also restricts it purely to the rules in the PHB. Retraining is from PHBII, and based purely on that quote it wouldn't be covered by that statement anyway (and even if it were, it's only a sometimes application, so lacking any other evidence there's nothing to show retraining applies to non-player characters, which animal companions are).



Character levels are the combined number of class levels. Animals don't have any levels.





Animal Companions never gain levels, so for the same reason Retraining is impossible, psychic reformation does nothing.

Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos may have some merit (for some reason I thought they were evil, but apparently not), however as those are two 8th level spells that aren't on the Druid list it'll cost 4900 (total) to swap one feat. To swap two feats for the two feats would total out to 9800gp, making this unfeasible until later levels (at which point it'd be easier to just have the creature pick up said feats by virtue of bonus HD, assuming the DM grants permission).

no. character level is your total number of HD, not your total number of class levels. RHD and class levels both contribute to character level. the only creatures that do not have character levels are intelligent items.

as for creature vs. character. the only creatures that aren't also characters are those that aren't part of the game. derro aren't characters in my games, for example, because i don't use derro in my settings. so they are creatures, but not characters. but in a setting where derro actually exist, all derro are characters, regardless of who controls them, or what they do.

[Vogonjeltz]

None of this really counters the idea that ECL is a form of level, which is an idea supported by the fact that level is in the name, and used in the same general definition as things like character level and class level (this is just to stave off arguments about terraforming, and its role in retraining).

The idea that ECL is a level has no basis in fact. Having a word in something's name doesn't make it that thing. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Democratic%20Republic%20of%20the%2 0Congo )


The part about character and creature being synonymous is irrelevant. Animal companions are characters within the definition of character. To elaborate, is my animal companion fictional? Yes. Is he an individual? Well, I don't see any other Josephson, my friendly celestial fleshraker's running around, so I'd have to say yes. Is he within the confines of a fantasy game setting? Obviously, and any argument that eliminates the companion's role as a character would also make player characters not characters. So, they are characters, as every standard is met. I could make other arguments about primary/secondary source, or what "within these rules" means, but it's all rather irrelevant, I think.

Animal companions are creatures, lacking any levels they are not characters.

[eggynack]

The idea that ECL is a level has no basis in fact. Having a word in something's name doesn't make it that thing. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Democratic%20Republic%20of%20the%2 0Congo )
It certainly does have some basis in fact. Effective character level is a form of level that determines some smaller subset of things that other forms of level determine.



Animal companions are creatures, lacking any levels they are not characters.
There is no indication that I can see that levels are a necessary condition of character-hood.

[Threadnaught]

Aren't RHD to be treated as levels in Type?

Let's take a look at three creatures Domovoi, Minotaur and Ogre Mage.

Domovoi gets 2RHD and +2LA. The 2RHD are to be treated as Fey levels. They start at level 5 if using PC Classes.
Minotaur gets 6RHD and +2 LA. The 6RHD are to be treated as Monstrous Humanoid levels. They start at level 9 if using PC Classes.
Ogre Mage gets 5RHD and +7 LA. The 5RHD are to be treated as Giant levels. They start at level 13 if using PC Classes.


Animal Companions have RHD, and plenty of them. They're always gaining levels in Animal.

[shadowseve]

The idea that ECL is a level has no basis in fact. Having a word in something's name doesn't make it that thing. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Democratic%20Republic%20of%20the%2 0Congo )



Animal companions are creatures, lacking any levels they are not characters.


Dude let it rest. Your argument has been dis-proven and argued against by so many different people. The majority of people vote that it is possible to retrain your animal companion and plenty of valid arguments have been given. I say let this poor subject go and let this thread go with it. The original intent of this post has been met. Clericgirl got the answer she needed. She is probably playing her new character in her campaign as we speak and doing fine. Why must this continue?

[lunar2]

Dude let it rest. Your argument has been dis-proven and argued against by so many different people. The majority of people vote that it is possible to retrain your animal companion and plenty of valid arguments have been given. I say let this poor subject go and let this thread go with it. The original intent of this post has been met. Clericgirl got the answer she needed. She is probably playing her new character in her campaign as we speak and doing fine. Why must this continue?

because someone is wrong on the internet, and that's a VERY BAD THING™.

[Vogonjeltz]

It certainly does have some basis in fact. Effective character level is a form of level that determines some smaller subset of things that other forms of level determine.

Show an exact quote from phb2 saying what you are saying. I can't for the life of me find it. Thus goes your entire argument: assertions absent fact.


Aren't RHD to be treated as levels in Type?

Let's take a look at three creatures Domovoi, Minotaur and Ogre Mage.

Domovoi gets 2RHD and +2LA. The 2RHD are to be treated as Fey levels. They start at level 5 if using PC Classes.
Minotaur gets 6RHD and +2 LA. The 6RHD are to be treated as Monstrous Humanoid levels. They start at level 9 if using PC Classes.
Ogre Mage gets 5RHD and +7 LA. The 5RHD are to be treated as Giant levels. They start at level 13 if using PC Classes.

Animal Companions have RHD, and plenty of them. They're always gaining levels in Animal.

The level adjustment you mean? I quoted that entry, it says those aren't actually levels.


Dude let it rest. Your argument has been dis-proven and argued against by so many different people. The majority of people vote that it is possible to retrain your animal companion and plenty of valid arguments have been given. I say let this poor subject go and let this thread go with it. The original intent of this post has been met. Clericgirl got the answer she needed. She is probably playing her new character in her campaign as we speak and doing fine. Why must this continue?

I'm posting because the discussion is still continuing. If you don't want to respond or continue following it, I'm certainly not forcing you too.

[LordBlades]

The level adjustment you mean? I quoted that entry, it says those aren't actually

If ypu reread what he said more carefully, you might notice it says RHD are treated as <monster type> levels.

[eggynack]

Show an exact quote from phb2 saying what you are saying. I can't for the life of me find it. Thus goes your entire argument: assertions absent fact.

It's an argument that really has no connection to the PHB II, nor should it have one. The idea is that, as a ranking system of power, used to determine certain attributes of a given character, and with the title "level", effective character level can be referred to as a form of level. However, I'm probably just going to stick by Threadnaught's argument. It seems to hang together pretty well.

[Brookshw]

It's an argument that really has no connection to the PHB II, nor should it have one. The idea is that, as a ranking system of power, used to determine certain attributes of a given character, and with the title "level", effective character level can be referred to as a form of level. However, I'm probably just going to stick by Threadnaught's argument. It seems to hang together pretty well.

Not that I'm partial one way or the other but I find Threadnaught's position a bit dubious.


Humanoid and Class levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels This seems to decouple the idea that monster levels are the equivalent of character levels and strikes me as undermining the position.


Feat acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monsters hit dice, not it's ECL, govern acquisition of feats and ability score This once more seems to decouple the idea that the HD are treated as the equivalent of levels.

This leads me to believe that "Monster Level" and "ECL" are not in effect the equivalent of "Character Levels" and would thereby disqualify from potential retraining which seems to be tied to the acquisition of Character Levels.

However I also have barely followed this thread so may have overlooked something. Happy to be proven wrong (though also happy to play devil's advocate :smallbiggrin:)

[lunar2]

Not that I'm partial one way or the other but I find Threadnaught's position a bit dubious.

This seems to decouple the idea that monster levels are the equivalent of character levels and strikes me as undermining the position.

This once more seems to decouple the idea that the HD are treated as the equivalent of levels.

This leads me to believe that "Monster Level" and "ECL" are not in effect the equivalent of "Character Levels" and would thereby disqualify from potential retraining which seems to be tied to the acquisition of Character Levels.

However I also have barely followed this thread so may have overlooked something. Happy to be proven wrong (though also happy to play devil's advocate :smallbiggrin:)

you don't retrain by gaining character levels. you retrain by gaining levels, without any qualifier. monster level, class level, bloodline level, it doesn't matter, as long as it's a level.


The most basic level of character revision is retraining—that
is, adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character’s
career by selecting a different legal option. This technique
represents the character’s practicing new talents in lieu of
honing older ones. In a way, the process is similar to attain-
ing a new level. In keeping with that concept, the retraining
option can be chosen only during level advancement.
Six different character aspects (see Table 8–1) can be
changed through retraining. Each time your character attains
a new level, you can select one (and only one) of these options.
For instance, you can’t change a feat selection and your spells
known at the same level. Since these options represent two
different sessions of retraining, they must occur at different
levels.
The decision to retrain must be implemented before any
benefi ts of the newly attained level are applied. For example,
if a 10th-level rogue wants to trade her improved evasion
class feature for the opportunist class feature, she can do so
immediately upon attaining 11th level, before she gains any
of the benefi ts for that level (such as additional hit points,
skill points, and so on).

nowhere does it specify the kind of level you have to gain. any level will do. now, level adjustments aren't actually levels, but RHD, class levels, and bloodline levels are.

[eggynack]

Not that I'm partial one way or the other but I find Threadnaught's position a bit dubious.

This seems to decouple the idea that monster levels are the equivalent of character levels and strikes me as undermining the position.

This once more seems to decouple the idea that the HD are treated as the equivalent of levels.

This leads me to believe that "Monster Level" and "ECL" are not in effect the equivalent of "Character Levels" and would thereby disqualify from potential retraining which seems to be tied to the acquisition of Character Levels.

However I also have barely followed this thread so may have overlooked something. Happy to be proven wrong (though also happy to play devil's advocate :smallbiggrin:)
It possibly decouples monster level and character level, though I'm not entirely sure on that count. What it doesn't do is decouple monster level and level, which would grant animal companions access to retraining. VoP is, as always, more difficult to prove, though it's plausible that the animal companion's nature as a character, combined with its possession of level, causes it to fulfill the definition of character level, which is, "A character's total level".

[.Zero]

Someone should Gate in Ur-priest and let him explain to Vogonjeltz what RHD is. As an alternative, Vogonjeltz, go and read Ur-Priest's Monstrous Guide to Monsters.

[bekeleven]

Someone should Gate in Ur-priest and let him explain to Vogonjeltz what RHD is. As an alternative, Vogonjeltz, go and read Ur-Priest's Monstrous Guide to Monsters.

Note that an animal companion never gains additional RHD.

[.Zero]

Sure, those bonus HD are not RHD for the purpose of. advancing in size, but they definitely are *as* RHD for all other purposes like gaining feats, BAB and ability score enhancement, as stated in the Animal Companion text.

And now, I'll no more contribute to this thread endlessness.

[Brookshw]

It possibly decouples monster level and character level, though I'm not entirely sure on that count. I think this is an extremely important element that we need to evaluate deeper to determine how the RAW applies. If monster levels are indeed decoupled from character level, and character level is a requirement for retraining then we have a problem with the idea that monster level advancement permits retraining. It certainly points that they are decoupled from being one in the same as I'm reading it, which likewise decouples the the notion that ECL is connected to character level as at that stage the only levels being modified by the LA are the monster levels and effectively makes ECL analogous to a virtual drive on a computer which is still in no way a real drive or even a drive partition. Looking at the rules for primary sourcing the MM seems to be the authority on this which we should be turning to and I'm not aware of anything that is indicating these are synonymous terms. As a strictly RAW matter looking at the advancing in character levels portion of the phb (pg. 58) we establish that character level advances by the accumulation of xp which the hd increase is not dictated by. This seems to indicate via both the primary source for character advancement (phb) that monsters are not in effect advancing by character level and is reinforced by the primary source for monsters (MM as quoted earlier) they are instead advancing by monster levels. I'm very curious at this point as the RAW seems to be a bit flimsy on the subject.



What it doesn't do is decouple monster level and level, True enough perhaps, but it's drawn a distinction between what a level advancement is and how they play into effect for this purpose, and if the advancement for retraining requires the advancement of character levels, which I've been given to believe it does, this is critically important otherwise we're making a categorical mistake and assuming a false premise.


[. . .] VoP is, as always, more difficult to prove, though it's plausible that the animal companion's nature as a character, combined with its possession of level, causes it to fulfill the definition of character level, which is, "A character's total level". Ah, but here we have to consider how character level is defined and based on the PHB advancement for character levels I can't tell if we've satisfied the criteria. I recall vaguely that you addressed the "character total level" element to some degree earlier but am not entirely familiar with what the position was, would you mind repeating the page references so I can check where the position stems from? Until the above decoupling is resolved I'm unsure that the previous position iirc of "any character with levels has character levels" (paraphrased) carries through.


Someone should Gate in Ur-priest and let him explain to Vogonjeltz what RHD is. As an alternative, Vogonjeltz, go and read Ur-Priest's Monstrous Guide to Monsters.

I just checked this briefly and after skimming for a bit, specifically the "Monsters have class" portion didn't see anything that drew a definitive link between RHD and character levels. Mind pointing me to which page of the thread covered this?

[eggynack]

I think this is an extremely important element that we need to evaluate deeper to determine how the RAW applies. If monster levels are indeed decoupled from character level, and character level is a requirement for retraining then we have a problem with the idea that monster level advancement permits retraining. It certainly points that they are decoupled from being one in the same as I'm reading it, which likewise decouples the the notion that ECL is connected to character level as at that stage the only levels being modified by the LA are the monster levels and effectively makes ECL analogous to a virtual drive on a computer which is still in no way a real drive or even a drive partition. Looking at the rules for primary sourcing the MM seems to be the authority on this which we should be turning to and I'm not aware of anything that is indicating these are synonymous terms. As a strictly RAW matter looking at the advancing in character levels portion of the phb (pg. 58) we establish that character level advances by the accumulation of xp which the hd increase is not dictated by. This seems to indicate via both the primary source for character advancement (phb) that monsters are not in effect advancing by character level and is reinforced by the primary source for monsters (MM as quoted earlier) they are instead advancing by monster levels. I'm very curious at this point as the RAW seems to be a bit flimsy on the subject.
The monster manual only get primary source precedence on an issue if it says something at all about that issue.



Ah, but here we have to consider how character level is defined and based on the PHB advancement for character levels I can't tell if we've satisfied the criteria. I recall vaguely that you addressed the "character total level" element to some degree earlier but am not entirely familiar with what the position was, would you mind repeating the page references so I can check where the position stems from? Until the above decoupling is resolved I'm unsure that the previous position iirc of "any character with levels has character levels" (paraphrased) carries through.

The term, "A character's total level" comes from the PHB glossary entry for character level, on page 306. The character part comes from the definition of character, on the same page, and the level part is derived from various entries in the monster manual which refer to levels in some type. As an example, you may look on the Minotaur entry on page 189 of the monster manual, where it says, "A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid." I believe that is the state of the argument as it stands.

[Brookshw]

The monster manual only get primary source precedence on an issue if it says something at all about that issue. It seems like the MM does says something on the issue of monster levels vs. character levels so it should indeed have precedence, no?



The term, "A character's total level" comes from the PHB glossary entry for character level, on page 306. The character part comes from the definition of character, on the same page, and the level part is derived from various entries in the monster manual which refer to levels in some type. As an example, you may look on the Minotaur entry on page 189 of the monster manual, where it says, "A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid." I believe that is the state of the argument as it stands. Thanks for the citations. I do note that the character definition uses the word "often" creating a non 100% ruling so the question seems to remain. I also note that character level indicates that class level and character level for the purposes of multiclassing are the same thing drawing a parallel between class and character. Monstrous humanoid isn't a class however and whether monstrous levels are or are not decoupled from character levels does not yet seem to be determined. I'm going to mull on the definition for a while and see where it gets me but any thoughts in the mean time are of course welcome.

[eggynack]

It seems like the MM does says something on the issue of monster levels vs. character levels so it should indeed have precedence, no?
Possibly so. I suppose the question is whether it is a thing that overwrites the PHB defintion.



Thanks for the citations. I do note that the character definition uses the word "often" creating a non 100% ruling so the question seems to remain.
"Often" applies only to the relationship between creature and character. I'm making use of the first half of the definition, which sets forth a list of requirements for characterhood that the animal companion meets successfully.

[Vogonjeltz]

If ypu reread what he said more carefully, you might notice it says RHD are treated as <monster type> levels.

Indeed. Being treated as something doesn't make a thing that thing. For examples: Effigy's; Crash Test and CPR dummy's; Symbols of all kinds. What do these have in common with RHD? They only stand-in as representations, they aren't the thing being represented. More specifically, even if those were levels, they aren't gained at any point in play, the character starts with them. Perhaps in Savage Species or the Races of X book lines there's some text to provide that those racial substitution/progressions count as character levels.


nowhere does it specify the kind of level you have to gain. any level will do. now, level adjustments aren't actually levels, but RHD, class levels, and bloodline levels are.

Class levels (which constitute character level) are fine.

Bloodlines/Substitution levels, perhaps.

Racial HD are never gained, they exist upon the creation of the character, so even if they were levels, those are right out.


It possibly decouples monster level and character level, though I'm not entirely sure on that count. What it doesn't do is decouple monster level and level, which would grant animal companions access to retraining. VoP is, as always, more difficult to prove, though it's plausible that the animal companion's nature as a character, combined with its possession of level, causes it to fulfill the definition of character level, which is, "A character's total level".

Only the Druid gains a level, the animal isn't those bonus HD are directly linked to and dependent on the Druid's class level. If the Druid takes a negative level, the Animal Companion loses the benefits from the class feature (that includes extra HD, armor, str/dex adj/tricks and special).

The Official definition of level, as drawn from the Wizards of the Coast D&D Glossary:


A measure of advancement or power applied to several areas of the game. See caster level, character level, class level, and spell level.

Although I agree with the sentiment that monster levels (not to be found in the glossary) is in the spirit, it's definitely not in the letter.

*eggynack, it definitely doesn't override. PHB is the primary source on levels. Monster manual is only the primary source on monster stat blocks and abilities.

[eggynack]

Racial HD are never gained, they exist upon the creation of the character, so even if they were levels, those are right out.
I don't think that follows. In the monster manual, racial hit dice are defined as, "The hit dice a monster has by virtue of what type of creature it is." The bonus HD gained from the animal companion ability have their attributes informed by the animal type, so it follows that they are racial hit dice, as they fill all given requirements.




Only the Druid gains a level, the animal isn't those bonus HD are directly linked to and dependent on the Druid's class level. If the Druid takes a negative level, the Animal Companion loses the benefits from the class feature (that includes extra HD, armor, str/dex adj/tricks and special).

The Official definition of level, as drawn from the Wizards of the Coast D&D Glossary:



Although I agree with the sentiment that monster levels (not to be found in the glossary) is in the spirit, it's definitely not in the letter.
You haven't really proved that monster level isn't a form of level here. In particular, that quote never claims that all forms of level are on that list.

[lunar2]

Indeed. Being treated as something doesn't make a thing that thing. For examples: Effigy's; Crash Test and CPR dummy's; Symbols of all kinds. What do these have in common with RHD? They only stand-in as representations, they aren't the thing being represented. More specifically, even if those were levels, they aren't gained at any point in play, the character starts with them. Perhaps in Savage Species or the Races of X book lines there's some text to provide that those racial substitution/progressions count as character levels.



Class levels (which constitute character level) are fine.

Bloodlines/Substitution levels, perhaps.

Racial HD are never gained, they exist upon the creation of the character, so even if they were levels, those are right out.



Only the Druid gains a level, the animal isn't those bonus HD are directly linked to and dependent on the Druid's class level. If the Druid takes a negative level, the Animal Companion loses the benefits from the class feature (that includes extra HD, armor, str/dex adj/tricks and special).

The Official definition of level, as drawn from the Wizards of the Coast D&D Glossary:



Although I agree with the sentiment that monster levels (not to be found in the glossary) is in the spirit, it's definitely not in the letter.

*eggynack, it definitely doesn't override. PHB is the primary source on levels. Monster manual is only the primary source on monster stat blocks and abilities.

monster advancement would like to have a word with you. specifically true dragons, barghests, and redcaps, although i'm sure there are others who also have something to say. and i know for a fact that it is possible to get true dragons and redcaps as animal companions.

also, for the ultimate proof that any individual monster can advance by RHD (assuming their entry allows it) even without special mechanics to do so, i point to the tarrasque. there is only one tarrasque, it is a unique creature, and yet it has an advancement line, and advances by RHD. that means the tarrasque can actually grow beyond the default state, otherwise known as gaining levels.

on a side note, i just realized the cheesiest thing ever. you can retrain anytime you gain a level. bards can cause you to temporarily gain levels. get a high level bard, and you can completely rewrite your build in just a minute or two.

[Tysis]

A bit off topic but am I the only one wondering how the rest of the party felt about giving an equal share of the treasure to the druid's animal companion so it could use vow of poverty?


Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof ) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its work among the poor). While taking upon herself the burden of poverty voluntarily, an ascetic recognizes that many people do not have the freedom to choose poverty, but instead have it forced upon them, and seeks to better those unfortunates as much as possible.

[eggynack]

A bit off topic but am I the only one wondering how the rest of the party felt about giving an equal share of the treasure to the druid's animal companion so it could use vow of poverty?
I don't see anything there that says that the character needs to have had a share of treasure in order to take vow of poverty. The animal companion needs to give up their share of treasure, and they get zero treasure, so they need to give up all of their non-existent treasure. The other party members get neither a greater share of treasure nor a lesser share of treasure, because there's no reason they would.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't think that follows. In the monster manual, racial hit dice are defined as, "The hit dice a monster has by virtue of what type of creature it is." The bonus HD gained from the animal companion ability have their attributes informed by the animal type, so it follows that they are racial hit dice, as they fill all given requirements.

You haven't really proved that monster level isn't a form of level here. In particular, that quote never claims that all forms of level are on that list.

So you concur, RHD aren't even defined (in the 3.5 system) as levels. Thus the PHB2 can't be talking about them when it uses the term level.

That list assumes it is comprehensive for unusual terms:


If you need a quick definition of a D&D term that you have seen in an article or one that created questions in your game, begin your search in the D&D Glossary.

That clearly indicates it provides for any definition.


monster advancement would like to have a word with you. specifically true dragons, barghests, and redcaps, although i'm sure there are others who also have something to say. and i know for a fact that it is possible to get true dragons and redcaps as animal companions.

also, for the ultimate proof that any individual monster can advance by RHD (assuming their entry allows it) even without special mechanics to do so, i point to the tarrasque. there is only one tarrasque, it is a unique creature, and yet it has an advancement line, and advances by RHD. that means the tarrasque can actually grow beyond the default state, otherwise known as gaining levels.

on a side note, i just realized the cheesiest thing ever. you can retrain anytime you gain a level. bards can cause you to temporarily gain levels. get a high level bard, and you can completely rewrite your build in just a minute or two.

Nobody said monsters aren't advanced when being made by the DM. That's not the same as gaining a character (class) level.

Could you specify on the Bard thing?

*Good call on the treasure share requirement for VoP.

[Threadnaught]

So you concur, RHD aren't even defined (in the 3.5 system) as levels. Thus the PHB2 can't be talking about them when it uses the term level.

Monsters as Characters.

Racial Hit Dice: A [Monster] begins with X levels of [Type], which provides XdY Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +Y, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +Y, Ref +Y and Wil +Y.


It's been brought up so many times, why are you still ignoring it?

[Synar]

Hum, I don't want to be that guy, but has it been brought up that RAW (which I assume it is) or not, this is certainly cheesy? As a good cheese is been definition RAW, if not always RAI, and certainly not Rules AS Planned-to-be-used. And giving VOP to your animal companion, which is not supposed to have any material possession, and certainly not WBL (most of the time, only the gear you give him yourself which is taken on your own WBL), is quite cheesy? As VOP was intended to give benefits compensating the loss of your WBL, letting your companion take it is like letting you have two WBL (a bit less, since you are higher level) in the spirit. After all, your companion may be a character by RAW, but in effect, it is a class feature, and making him take VOP is a step in the direction of playing two characters instead of one as the others at your table. There is also a reason why b RAW, you cannot control totally yor companion.

And, cheesy or not, at table with a fighter and a rogue, giving a free advantage to the omnipotent druid (as VOP has no cost for a bear, beneath the two feas, and certainly not the drawbacks it normally possess), this strikes me at a terrible, terrible idea that if RAW should be DM-fiat nerfed (or the druid should be talked out of it, for more consensus).

[ryu]

Fighter and Rogue aren't classes that should be playing with druids to begin with. Especially the fighter considering his relative weakness is made obvious to the point of absurdity by the animal companion. Also in the situation currently involved the druid totally has control of the companion because it has at least int 3 and isn't subject to needing tricks.

[Vogonjeltz]

Monsters as Characters.

Racial Hit Dice: A [Monster] begins with X levels of [Type], which provides XdY Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +Y, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +Y, Ref +Y and Wil +Y.


It's been brought up so many times, why are you still ignoring it?

I ignored nothing, those aren't levels as defined by the game, they just provide similar benefits.

[lunar2]

Nobody said monsters aren't advanced when being made by the DM. That's not the same as gaining a character (class) level.

Could you specify on the Bard thing?

*Good call on the treasure share requirement for VoP.

1. character level and class level are not synonymous. quit treating them like they are. character level is your total amount of levels, which for PCs, is generally, but not always, only class level. a human natural wererat fighter 2 has a class level of 2, a character level of 3, and an ecl of 6. the RHD provided by wererat is a level of (dire) animal.

2. dragons, barghests, and redcaps do explicitly gain levels, which is why i mentioned them specifically. all three of those monsters have an actual mechanic for gaining RHD after the start of play, which is divorced from exp gain. other monsters with an RHD advancement can advance by RHD through gaining experience, but those 3 do it automatically, which is why they disprove your argument that creatures don't advance in level, they are just created at x level.


I ignored nothing, those aren't levels as defined by the game, they just provide similar benefits.

3. they are explicitly called levels. therefore they are levels. there is no getting around that. if it is called a level, and functions like a level, then it is a level.

@bards. inspire greatness doesn't actually work. it is granting the effects of bonus HD, not actually increasing level. the HP it gives are even called out as temporary HP, and it gives competence bonuses to attack and fort, rather than base attack and save increases. but the premise was that inspire greatness temporarily increases your level by 2, therefore allowing you to retrain two feats or whatever. given just a few minutes, a bard could completely rebuild themselves or another character, within the limits of the retraining rules. so basically, 9th level bards could reproduce the effect of psychic reformation without spending exp. so like i said, the cheesiest thing ever.

[Vogonjeltz]

1. character level and class level are not synonymous. quit treating them like they are. character level is your total amount of levels, which for PCs, is generally, but not always, only class level. a human natural wererat fighter 2 has a class level of 2, a character level of 3, and an ecl of 6. the RHD provided by wererat is a level of (dire) animal.

Character level is the sum total of class levels. When a character is a single class, the are synonymous. ECL isn't level.


2. dragons, barghests, and redcaps do explicitly gain levels, which is why i mentioned them specifically. all three of those monsters have an actual mechanic for gaining RHD after the start of play, which is divorced from exp gain. other monsters with an RHD advancement can advance by RHD through gaining experience, but those 3 do it automatically, which is why they disprove your argument that creatures don't advance in level, they are just created at x level.

None of those things are exalted companions, so we don't even need to discuss them. They are irrelevant.

That being said, Barghests advance HD, Not levels. Dragons of a particular age have spell casting as a sorcerer of level X, but that's not leveling either, redcaps have special rules for advancement that apply only to them, and even then it's HD, not levels.



3. they are explicitly called levels. therefore they are levels. there is no getting around that. if it is called a level, and functions like a level, then it is a level.


No they aren't.


@bards. inspire greatness doesn't actually work. it is granting the effects of bonus HD, not actually increasing level. the HP it gives are even called out as temporary HP, and it gives competence bonuses to attack and fort, rather than base attack and save increases. but the premise was that inspire greatness temporarily increases your level by 2, therefore allowing you to retrain two feats or whatever. given just a few minutes, a bard could completely rebuild themselves or another character, within the limits of the retraining rules. so basically, 9th level bards could reproduce the effect of psychic reformation without spending exp. so like i said, the cheesiest thing ever.

Inspire Greatness gives bonus HD, which are not levels.

[gooddragon1]

Druids are good at being combat monsters and cranking out combat monsters. Wizards have all the cheese... clerics are kinda in the middle.

Example of wizard cheese (classic): 500 Maximized Explosive runes (assume all saves are successful and no evasion or SR)+sonic snap+1 dispel magic failed because cast at minimum required level of 5 + take 10 on the check feat. 18*500=9000+1 from sonic snap=9001 damage if they make all their saves. Plan this out right and they probably get no rolls at all (dimension door minion with runes in reading range and readied action dispel as well as invisibility out further than 120 feet).

I guess as a cleric you could go ice axe for touch attacks with cold damage then slap on some DMM maximize, empower, energy substitute fire, searing spell, admix fire for some nasty damage.
2d12+1/2 cl at 18 is 2d12+9 then admix for 4d12+9 and max for 57 and empower for 85 damage a swing unresistable. Haste and divine power for 5 attacks. 425 with 5 touch attacks that you can spread out among enemies. No DR applied and only immunity can halve it. If you're super paranoid you can go sanctified one of khorne kord and pick up sacred fire to make it untyped and save on the searing spell feat. SR is a problem in some cases. Alternatively, bundles of fire seeds from a spontaneous fire domain with sacred fire (bomb type) can give you 8xCL+8d8 untyped SR no AOE damage. Couple of those and you're in business (just need a delivery method like a bag carried by a summon or something) Say the command word of boom and thus goes the dynamite/fire seeds.

If you want something simple that's not too effective but funny:
Harm and DMM Quicken Harm, somatic components/touch attacks = sticking two thumbs on opposite sides of your opponent's head (on the temples), verbal component (very important) = omae wa mo shindeiru.

You can also try to outsummon him with malconvoker stuff. As well as getting polymorph as a spontaneous from a domain that has it. Turn your summons into hydras and that's some good damage there. Giant vermin spell with a prayer bead of karma gives you a colossal scorpion. If you want to be completely stupid you can get polymorph any object as a spontaneous of trickery and make a heavy rock into a stone golem that: "A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator." and have those things as long as they aren't dispelled (which basically means an army worth of them). If you're worried about DM not liking unlimited stone golems then just omit that creator bit and get warforged domain to make them loyal to you through "rebuke/command". Also, since PAO has no HD limit given the examples (which contradict what inheritance would say given polymorph's normal 15 HD limit, pebble to human where an object has no HD and a human does for example...) means that a stone colossus is not out of the question (epic monster) and neither is an iron colossus with a slab of iron. Note that they'll have as much HP as the objects you make them out of. Also note that PAO used like this tends to cause a DM to make two handed smiting power attacks with the rule books on you.

Note that none of this is at your level though. So yeah.

[eggynack]

No they aren't.

They aren't which? They're definitely called levels, cause it says levels with no qualifiers, and they definitely act like levels, cause they do. I'm not really sure what they aren't here.

[lunar2]

he's just sticking his fingers in his ears now. if something is explicitly called a level (quote already provided), and acts in exactly the same way as a level, then it is a level. RHD are also explicitly called monster levels, or levels of (creature type). they also provide everything that levels provide.

also, it is possible to get both redcaps and true dragons as animal companions (although you need to be tiny to get a redcap companion), so their racial mechanic for advancing levels is relevant to that. but all three are also relevant because they are examples of monsters that gain levels during the course of play. other monsters do so in theory, but those 3 do so in practice, disproving the notion that advanced monsters are just created from whole cloth at whatever level they are at. no, they actually advanced to that point, whether it was during gameplay or before the game started.

[shadowseve]

he's just sticking his fingers in his ears now.

^ pretty much this.

[Vogonjeltz]

They aren't which? They're definitely called levels, cause it says levels with no qualifiers, and they definitely act like levels, cause they do. I'm not really sure what they aren't here.

Eggynack, I provided you the game definition of levels. Did you have any further questions or are you just yanking my chain?

[eggynack]

Eggynack, I provided you the game definition of levels. Did you have any further questions or are you just yanking my chain?
I just didn't know why it's relevant. The definition you provided was, "A measure of advancement or power applied to several areas of the game. See caster level, character level, class level, and spell level." The listed examples are just that, examples, and they don't preclude the existence of other forms of level. The first half seems to apply perfectly well to monster level, especially as it doesn't need to be both a measure of advancement and power. Five levels of monstrous humanoid indicates a higher level of power than two levels of monstrous humanoid, all other things being equal, and a lower level of power than eight levels of monstrous humanoid. Level, by your definition.

[TuggyNE]

I just didn't know why it's relevant. The definition you provided was, "A measure of advancement or power applied to several areas of the game. See caster level, character level, class level, and spell level." The listed examples are just that, examples, and they don't preclude the existence of other forms of level.

Such as manifester level, power level, initiator level, maneuver level, effective binder level, and so on and so forth. "Monster levels" are introduced in the primary source for monsters (the MM), while caster level and the others are introduced in their respective primary source. So yeah, there's no conflict here.