PDA

View Full Version : Can any spell hurt it?



Avicenex
2007-02-12, 10:20 PM
So I have a problem, albiet a self-imposed one.

One day I decided to make a CR 45 monster. Now I'm trying to make a character that can kill it, and have run into a problem: I can't find any spells that can do it meaningful damage, if any damage at all.
Here's why:
-It is Immune to Polymorph, Mind-affecting, Fire, Poison, Disease, Energy Drain, Ability Damage, Sleep, Paralysis, Cold
-It reflects all spells that are Rays, Lines, Cones, or Magic-Missiles
-It reflects all spells that target it specifically (as Spell Turning, but permanent)
-It has Spell Resistance 385
-It has Lightning and Acid Resist 105
-It has the following saves: Fort 69, Ref 55, Will 36

Are there any spells that can directly damage/kill it? I've flipped through quite a few books to no avail. I realize it could easily be killed by a mob of angry summoned Solars or an angry horde of Allips, but that's not what I'm looking to do. Assume the caster trying to kill it has a base caster level of 50.

Can any spell hurt it?

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 10:22 PM
So I have a problem, albiet a self-imposed one.

One day I decided to make a CR 45 monster. Now I'm trying to make a character that can kill it, and have run into a problem: I can't find any spells that can do it meaningful damage, if any damage at all.
Here's why:
-It is Immune to Polymorph, Mind-affecting, Fire, Poison, Disease, Energy Drain, Ability Damage, Sleep, Paralysis, Cold
-It reflects all spells that are Rays, Lines, Cones, or Magic-Missiles
-It reflects all spells that target it specifically (as Spell Turning, but permanent)
-It has Spell Resistance 385
-It has Lightning and Acid Resist 105
-It has the following saves: Fort 69, Ref 55, Will 36

Are there any spells that can directly damage/kill it? I've flipped through quite a few books to no avail. I realize it could easily be killed by a mob of angry summoned Solars or an angry horde of Allips, but that's not what I'm looking to do. Assume the caster trying to kill it has a base caster level of 50.

Can any spell hurt it?

I think you can chuck a sonic orb at it (Spell Compendium)

Edit: I looked up the spell, it is Orb of Sound. 15d4 damage. You said hurt it, not kill it :-)

mikeejimbo
2007-02-12, 10:23 PM
Gate to the elemental plane of fire under it?

Gralamin
2007-02-12, 10:24 PM
Epic spell casting always wins
Without going into details you can get a ludicrous amount of solars to help you fuel a single spell to kill it (see: How to animate a planet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10240&highlight=animate+planet))

Rigeld2
2007-02-12, 10:24 PM
Epic AoE spell that dosent allow spell resistance.

Gralamin
2007-02-12, 10:25 PM
Rigeld2 all damage does allow spell resistance from seeds, you can add +2 to the DC to gain a +1 CL for overcoming SR.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 10:25 PM
Gate to the elemental plane of fire under it?

He said immune to fire.

mikeejimbo
2007-02-12, 10:26 PM
He said immune to fire.

Ah, I see. I was thinking it just had the lightning/acid resistance.

Well, plane of water then. Drown it.:smalltongue:

Mewtarthio
2007-02-12, 10:27 PM
Assuming no Epic Spellcasting (which can do anything you want, more or less), you could conjure up a Wall of Iron and push it onto the monster.

What? You only said "directly damage/kill it," and I don't see any DR there.

J_Muller
2007-02-12, 10:30 PM
Find the Tarrasque and several giant black dragons. Make the Tarrasque twice as big. Put them all in one place and collapse the ground under them.

Yes, it's not a spell, but it's all I could think of.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 10:31 PM
Assuming no Epic Spellcasting (which can do anything you want, more or less), you could conjure up a Wall of Iron and push it onto the monster.

What? You only said "directly damage/kill it," and I don't see any DR there.

Yeah, he was asking about spells, but this critter definitely calls for our power-leap-shock trooping-psionic lions charging-expanded-hasted-clawed psychic warrior friend.

Solo
2007-02-12, 10:33 PM
Forecage + Create Water.

Gralamin
2007-02-12, 10:34 PM
Forecage + Create Water.

Forcecage + opened decanter of endless water :smallbiggrin:

Rigeld2
2007-02-12, 10:35 PM
Rigeld2 all damage does allow spell resistance from seeds, you can add +2 to the DC to gain a +1 CL for overcoming SR.
Meh, I forgot how dumb that was. Ah well - its trivial to get into the thousands for a spellcraft check to make and cast an epic spell. Bye bye baddie.

oriong
2007-02-12, 10:37 PM
Wouldn't work, unbarred forcecage blocks line of effect, and of course if it's taller than 10' feet you couldn't fit it in anyway.

The Orb Spells are the most obvious, Sonic Orb is already mentioned. At CR 45 there's no reason that I know of that a player couldn't empower/maximize the orb enough to blast through the monster in a couple of hits.

Collin152
2007-02-12, 10:44 PM
Forcecage + opened decanter of endless water that you will never see again
Fixed it for ya'. :smallbiggrin:

Truffles
2007-02-12, 10:56 PM
time stop, evards black tentacles, drop a bag of holding next to it. When you come out of the timestop: quickened truestrike throw a black hole into the bag of holding. Say adios as the monster is sent into the astral plane for the githyanki to deal with it.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-02-12, 10:57 PM
Summon CO Board (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401662) is the spell you want. That one wins pretty much every time.

Collin152
2007-02-12, 10:58 PM
time stop, bag of holding drop a bag of holding next to it, evards black tentacles, when you come out of the timestop: quickened truestrike throw a black hole into the bag of holding and say adios as the monster is sent into the astral plane for the githyanki to deal with it.
Hey, If you want Timestop cheese, prepare some Dealyed Burst fireballs element swtched to sonic, apply quintessence i round before detonation. Pile up Arbitrrily many. Timestop in close, move out. SOmehow remove quintessence (probably through telekinesis), cast Silence or Deafness prior to detonation. Big old sonic boom.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-12, 11:02 PM
Wouldn't work, unbarred forcecage blocks line of effect, and of course if it's taller than 10' feet you couldn't fit it in anyway.

The Orb Spells are the most obvious, Sonic Orb is already mentioned. At CR 45 there's no reason that I know of that a player couldn't empower/maximize the orb enough to blast through the monster in a couple of hits.

Yeah, let's see how quickly we can do this. I won't even go epic; I'll just use a 20th level wizard.

A) cast "imbue familiar with spell ability" and give him 6 orbs of sound
B) shapechange you and your familiar into chokers.

Each round for 3 rounds, you can do (assuming they all hit):
quickened orb of sound (avg damage 15 * 2.5 = 38), 8th level spell slot
empowered maximized orb of sound (avg damage 79), 9th level spell slot
empowered maximized again
familiar does a regular one twice.
Average damage = 272. I suppose I should account for rolling a 1 to hit, so maybe it's only 250.

If the critter has 10,000 hit points, that could take a while and you're blowing through your 8th and 9th level spell slots in a hurry.

Avicenex
2007-02-12, 11:24 PM
I suppose I should've given more physical specifications. He's collossal, so forcecage won't work, and I imposed the limitation of "we both start within 100 feet of eachother and roll initiative." That means you don't have 100 days to cast an epic spell with you and your legions of eager-to-please-cohorts. That's child's play to do.
I also said something along the lines of "No solar cheese."

Fireballs-turned-sonic sound like a great idea until you realize they allow for spell resistance. I figured out how to overcome spell resistance of around 100 with my epic caster, but couldn't go to 385. 100's not even close.

The orbs were what I thought of first, but unfortunatly they are are ranged touch spells specifically targeting Mr. Monster, and therefore will get turned back at the caster.

I'm not looking to send it to another plane of existance. I'm looking to kill it with spells in combat that my guy doesn't have tons of time to prepare for.

J_Muller
2007-02-12, 11:31 PM
Drop to your knees and pray.

Collin152
2007-02-12, 11:32 PM
I suppose I should've given more physical specifications. He's collossal, so forcecage won't work, and I imposed the limitation of "we both start within 100 feet of eachother and roll initiative." That means you don't have 100 days to cast an epic spell with you and your legions of eager-to-please-cohorts. That's child's play to do.
I also said something along the lines of "No solar cheese."

Fireballs-turned-sonic sound like a great idea until you realize they allow for spell resistance. I figured out how to overcome spell resistance of around 100 with my epic caster, but couldn't go to 385. 100's not even close.

The orbs were what I thought of first, but unfortunatly they are are ranged touch spells specifically targeting Mr. Monster, and therefore will get turned back at the caster.

I'm not looking to send it to another plane of existance. I'm looking to kill it with spells in combat that my guy doesn't have tons of time to prepare for.
Spell Resistance? Pah. Isnt there something that takes care of that? I dont keep up with these things.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-12, 11:42 PM
I suppose I should've given more physical specifications. He's collossal, so forcecage won't work, and I imposed the limitation of "we both start within 100 feet of eachother and roll initiative." That means you don't have 100 days to cast an epic spell with you and your legions of eager-to-please-cohorts. That's child's play to do.
I also said something along the lines of "No solar cheese."

Fireballs-turned-sonic sound like a great idea until you realize they allow for spell resistance. I figured out how to overcome spell resistance of around 100 with my epic caster, but couldn't go to 385. 100's not even close.

The orbs were what I thought of first, but unfortunatly they are are ranged touch spells specifically targeting Mr. Monster, and therefore will get turned back at the caster.

I'm not looking to send it to another plane of existance. I'm looking to kill it with spells in combat that my guy doesn't have tons of time to prepare for.

Gate it to the Negative Energy Plane. Or the Positive Energy Plane.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-12, 11:53 PM
Quickened Gate (I gate in a 60 HD Titan who has not used his gate ability today)
Tell the titan to gate in another titan (40 HD) and so on down the line. In 6 seconds you can get every titan in the multiverse here to fight for you and they all stay for 20 round.

Karsh
2007-02-12, 11:56 PM
50th level Wizard who casts this...

Soul Rend
Epic Spell
Necromancy [Death]
Seed: Slay
Spellcraft DC: 147
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Target: All Creatures within 200' radius
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
Factors: Slay seed (25 DC), 1 action casting time (+20), Change from Target to Area (+10), Increase spell's saving throw DC by 50 (+100), Affects 800 HD of creatures (+72), Increase Area by 1000% (+40), +340 CL to overcome spell resistance (+680), Burn 70,000 EXP (-700), 100d6 Backlash (-100)

Soul Reaver instantly snuffs out the life force of 800 HD worth of creatures within a 200 foot radius unless they make a successful Fortitude save vs. DC 70 + relevant ability modifier. On a successful save they instead take 3d6+20 points of damage.

XP Cost
70,000 EXP

A Thirty-fivefold Rod of Excellent Magic will run you 22,750,000 GP, but I am pretty sure a 50th level character's WBL is above that.

There are infinitely more ways that a 50th level caster could find to kill this thing, but if you want it in one spell, then there you go. By 50th level, your caster's modifier to spell DCs should be in the 20s at the lowest, forcing a fail from this guy 95% of the time, and it automatically overcomes his spell resistance without specifically targeting him.

Avicenex
2007-02-12, 11:57 PM
I'm not looking to send it to another plane of existance.

This means that the Negative and Positive Energy planes are ruled out.

I know how cheese works. I could gate in enough Solars to mob this thing to death, or send it to another plane, or take up 100 days to cast a spell it couldn't resist, or use Genesis to renew my spells within a single round, but that's not the point. The point is to kill it in fair combat. I'm looking for spells to do that.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 12:02 AM
Does the Negative energy Plane still do autodamage to any living thing on it (a la Planescape)?

AoE Wish it (and everything around it) there.

I see no dimension-shifting abilities on it, so it'll be stuck, and eventually be gone.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 12:05 AM
I'm not looking to send it to another plane of existance. I'm looking to kill it with spells in combat that my guy doesn't have tons of time to prepare for.

Crap. Missed that part. :smallmad:

erm...Fly really high and drop a Maximized Wall of Iron on it?

Are you allowing magic item/artifacts?

Greased ground leading onto/into a Sphere of Annihilation...

J_Muller
2007-02-13, 12:06 AM
Drop. Knees. Pray.

Pray to whatever gods you worship to save you from it.



Alternatively, just planeshift in Donald Trump so he can fire it.

iceman
2007-02-13, 12:16 AM
There is no such thing as a fair fight when it comes to fighting a CR 45 monster that has nearly 400 to spell resistance and is only weak vs sonic damage, and instant death effects. The only thing I can think of is to take the 3.0 fatespinner class to pump the save up beyond anything resembling reason and either find a way to get rid of the spell resistance or hope for a nat 20 on the roll

crazedloon
2007-02-13, 12:17 AM
epic lvl entropomancer with a sphere (or a few) of Annihilation. At epic lvls im sure you will have high enough int that it will be easy to control it at like 50 or so ft per turn i highly doubt the giant target that is this thing can realy dodge that sphere :smallwink:

Oh you want a spell not a spell caster who can kill it :smalltongue:

Gralamin
2007-02-13, 12:40 AM
50th level Wizard who casts this...

Soul Rend
Epic Spell
Necromancy [Death]
Seed: Slay
Spellcraft DC: 147
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Target: All Creatures within 200' radius
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
Factors: Slay seed (25 DC), 1 action casting time (+20), Change from Target to Area (+10), Increase spell's saving throw DC by 50 (+100), Affects 800 HD of creatures (+72), Increase Area by 1000% (+40), +340 CL to overcome spell resistance (+680), Burn 70,000 EXP (-700), 100d6 Backlash (-100)

Soul Reaver instantly snuffs out the life force of 800 HD worth of creatures within a 200 foot radius unless they make a successful Fortitude save vs. DC 70 + relevant ability modifier. On a successful save they instead take 3d6+20 points of damage.

XP Cost
70,000 EXP

A Thirty-fivefold Rod of Excellent Magic will run you 22,750,000 GP, but I am pretty sure a 50th level character's WBL is above that.

There are infinitely more ways that a 50th level caster could find to kill this thing, but if you want it in one spell, then there you go. By 50th level, your caster's modifier to spell DCs should be in the 20s at the lowest, forcing a fail from this guy 95% of the time, and it automatically overcomes his spell resistance without specifically targeting him.

Max of 20 000 exp burn for a -200.
"Burn 100 XP during casting (max 20,000 XP) -1" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)

Mewtarthio
2007-02-13, 01:05 AM
epic lvl entropomancer with a sphere (or a few) of Annihilation. At epic lvls im sure you will have high enough int that it will be easy to control it at like 50 or so ft per turn i highly doubt the giant target that is this thing can realy dodge that sphere :smallwink:

Oh you want a spell not a spell caster who can kill it :smalltongue:

A Sphere of Annihilation is considered a Minor Artifact. You cannot count on possessing one.

kamikasei
2007-02-13, 01:06 AM
Alternatively, just planeshift in Donald Trump so he can fire it.

It's immune to fire, weren't you listening?

PinkysBrain
2007-02-13, 01:08 AM
There are always telekinesis with colossal+ bolts, and also shrink item and falling object damage rules ... but lets ignore that for a moment.

Straight epic wizard, nothing fancy. Automatic quicken 3 times and multispell 17 times. Cast a couple of timestops and use them to cast searing spell (Sandstorm, burns through immunity) Fire Seeds, then after the timestops throw them all at the monster with telekinesis. No SR, no Save ... lots of pain.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-13, 01:11 AM
By level 50, couldn't a wizard just blow up the planet and win by default?

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 01:15 AM
Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.

Armads
2007-02-13, 01:15 AM
energy substitution a sonic acid arrow?

just asking, but is that monstrosity a pseudonatural tarrasque?

Fizban
2007-02-13, 01:16 AM
Gate to Positive energy plane, sphere of annihilation, etc.

If you're going for sonic damage, you're going about it wrong. Check the Douglas character in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32653), substitute sonic for cold, and win.

Jack Mann
2007-02-13, 01:26 AM
Moonbow won't work without overcoming the massive spell resistance on the creature. That's why people are going for the orb spell.

J_Muller
2007-02-13, 01:30 AM
It's immune to fire, weren't you listening?


Hmmm...

Is it immune to toupee?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-13, 01:50 AM
stuff about anti-Osmium
Catgirl: *dies*
Alternatively, summon an epic Hulking Hurler to throw the universe at it.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 02:02 AM
Catgirl: *dies*


What? I hate CGs anyway. Can you think of a better way to do more non-DM-fiat hp of damage that he can't ignore? :smallwink:

Avicenex
2007-02-13, 02:32 AM
Swordguy, you killed so many catgirls with that post it's not even funny. I shouldn't have to say any more, but I'll repeat one more time: I'm not looking for cheese.

Armads--nice catch. It's not just a psuedonatural tarrasque though, it's a psuedonatural half dragon monster of legend spellwarped tarrasque with some extra hit dice.

Spheres of Annihilation are fun and all, but no artifacts, just spells.

PinkysBrain--Searing spell sounds promising, I'll check it out.

Also, for all those people who think a meleer would be a great idea, it's not, unless it has more reach that Mr. Monster. Obviously that's perfectly achievable at level 50, but once again: I'm looking for Spells

J_Muller
2007-02-13, 02:35 AM
Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.


I feel a great disturbance in the Force. As if millions of catgirls suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

Jack Mann
2007-02-13, 02:41 AM
It's worse than the time some friends used a silver piece, a platinum piece, a delayed blast fireball and a scroll of passwall to make a nuclear explosion in a game...

Kantolin
2007-02-13, 02:41 AM
Would earthquake work? Could be pulled out via wish, so I'm sure epic level casting can solve this.

Fly way the heck out of its reach, and earthquake over and over again. It'll eventually hit the 1/4 it, and then it'll eventually fail its save. Get an item of it or something.

Ramza00
2007-02-13, 02:53 AM
Whats its ac? What is its Hps?

At this CR you can just have an incantatrix/halruann elder that stacks metamagic with alot of metamagic reducers (Incantatrix, Halruann Elder, Improved Metamagic Epic Feat, Arcane Thesis, maybe Practical Metamagic) and multispell. Use Elven Spell Lore to make the damage force or sonic.

Vik
2007-02-13, 03:41 AM
I fail to see why you want to make a spellcaster use only pre-epic stuff to win versus a CR 45 monster, disallowing any cheese. Obviously, anything capable of this is cheese !

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-13, 03:48 AM
2nd Ed. Spell Lower Resistance! Times 10!
Now you can kill it...

Mirror of Opposition + Shapechange + Break the Mirrror. Grats, you just got a 50% chance of slaying your target outright, and if not, you're the same thing it is with spellcasting. At least, I think that's how it works. You win.

Or...

There *is* one dirty little secret about warlocks. You know that rule about not teleporting into enemy squares? It (arguably) doesn't apply to warlocks due to wording in the PHB. Get yourself polymorphed into a working cuisinart and warp into its vital areas. Game over.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-13, 03:49 AM
I fail to see why you want to make a spellcaster use only pre-epic stuff to win versus a CR 45 monster, disallowing any cheese. Obviously, anything capable of this is cheese !

...Yeah, I don't get the point of this. This is pretty much "look at the awesome unkillable monster I made!". And "oh, by the way, that trick that kills it? Not allowed."...

I don't see the point of this thread, really.

oriong
2007-02-13, 03:51 AM
No, it still applies to warlocks. There's no wording trick that negates it.

Even immersion in acid wouldn't get through this thing's 105 acid resistance.

Someone mentioned Energy Substituted (sonic) Acid Arrows, those would hurt it.

Jack Mann
2007-02-13, 03:55 AM
Really epic spellcasting is still quite feasible in this scenario. Your spellcaster just needs to planeshift to his personal plane where time flows arbitrarily fast. Then you research your special spell, summon what minions you need to sacrifice spell slots, and return to destroy the bastard. Ta-da, mission complete. Tea and medals all around.

Kantolin
2007-02-13, 03:56 AM
Hey... he's not immune to nonlethal damage.

Invisible Beguiler? You can ignore SR with cloaked casting, so it's just a matter of finding any illusion/enchantment spell that does force, sonic, nonlethal, or untyped damage.

And for kicks, start off with a few doses of glitterdust whether or not you're a beguiler. No SR, blindness is happy.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-13, 03:57 AM
"It has Spell Resistance 385"
That's a typo, right?

oriong
2007-02-13, 04:14 AM
Hey... he's not immune to nonlethal damage.

Invisible Beguiler? You can ignore SR with cloaked casting, so it's just a matter of finding any illusion/enchantment spell that does force, sonic, nonlethal, or untyped damage.


It seems like (Greater) Shadow Evocation would be the obvious choice, it'll take a hell of a long time to get through the hit points with damage that low though, since the save is probably sucessful every time.

It seems like the biggest problem is the whole 'it's a tarrasque' thing, since you also have to worry about getting enough damage through each round to keep that Regeneration down.

Kantolin
2007-02-13, 04:16 AM
It seems like the biggest problem is the whole 'it's a tarrasque' thing, since you also have to worry about getting enough damage through each round to keep that Regeneration down.

Perhaps Overwhelm? 20 castings of overwhelm should result in a downed beastie. At 50th level, that's probably not too difficult to accomplish.

Edit: Nope... Overwhelm is mind-affecting. Curses.

Quietus
2007-02-13, 04:18 AM
Roderick - no, it's not.

That thing's a beast; I can't even imagine what kind of craziness it'll take to bring it down. The sonic stuff is a good start, though if possible I'd also go for working some of that sonic damage into Vile. Evil Archmage with the metamagic feat that converts 1/2 the damage the spell deals into Vile damage anyone? Let's see it regenerate/fast heal that!

Armads
2007-02-13, 05:36 AM
ooh! maybe this might work:

empowered maximized energy piercing cold cold fire seeds, summon a huge air elemental (or something that has enough reach), move over, drop the seeds, BOOM!

dealing
1d8+50 per seed, reflex half, no SR.

Parlik
2007-02-13, 05:40 AM
Hmm dump a bag of holding into a portable hole nearby it?

daggaz
2007-02-13, 05:43 AM
Going to agree with Vik and Yuki on this one. This thread is cheese innate and is TOTALLY pointless. Hey look I made a lvl 345 cheesosaurus rex, I want you to kill it with a 20th level wizard, but my cheesosaurus is immune to EVERYTHING normal by default, and as the supreme ruler of the plane of cheese, it instantly absorbs and negates any cheese your wizard can think of, and to top all of this off, it has a greater ring of DM FIAT to negate any other possibilities that might have worked except I didnt think of them first or couldn't fit them into my rediculously broken cheezy build for some wierd reason. (Like for instance, you could have shoved a dimensional anchor up its ass so you didnt have to fiat away the possibility of moving it to another, deadlier plane. Gate is a perfectly good 9th lvl spell and it isn't really cheesy unless you want to abuse it).

Rigeld2
2007-02-13, 06:56 AM
There are no Solars used in the killing of your monster (directly). They all stay on my little home plane I created. They just happened to help me create this spell an arbitrary amount of time ago, and this spell is an AoE ball (of no particular energy type) that does 10,000d6 damage, and takes 1 round to cast with no backlash, and is guaranteed to get through SR over about 800.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 09:06 AM
The orbs were what I thought of first, but unfortunatly they are are ranged touch spells specifically targeting Mr. Monster, and therefore will get turned back at the caster.


Um, is that true? You said it deflects ray spells, but this is just a ranged touch attack from the wizard lobbing the orb at it. Are they treated as one and the same?

There is a 4th level spell in the Spell Compendium that protects against ray spells. I didn't think it helped against all ranged touch spells though.

From a common sense point of view, it is easy to see a ray getting reflected. But an orb hurled at the monster bouncing off and hitting the caster? Not so much.

Douglas
2007-02-13, 09:22 AM
Let's see, rays, lines, cones, and magic missiles are reflected. The orb spells are not in any of these categories, so that part isn't a problem.

Permanent Spell Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) has this little caveat: "Effect and area spells are not affected." The orb spells are effect spells, as evidenced by the line "Effect: one orb of _____" in each one's stat block. This defense is therefore bypassed.

SR is negated by the very simple "Spell Resistance: No" line for each orb spell.

All that's left are the high saves and energy resistances, and the saves only halve the damage, there's an orb for each energy type, and it doesn't have resistance to all of them.

The Orb spells work, though you would need a fair bit of metamagic to bring the damage up high enough to be worthwhile at that level.

Karsh
2007-02-13, 09:36 AM
I'll go ahead and say it... the SR probably makes this thing well above CR 45. It's impossible for GODS to get SR that high. Ao doesn't have SR that high. Nobody does. It would take a Deity with over 300 Divine Ranks. 300. If you want it to be that invincible to magic, then just give it magic immunity and be done with it.

A Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon is CR 66 and has "only" an SR of 86. This monster of yours must be an Immovable Object, because I can't see how it's CR 45 with all those defenses as well as offensive capabilities.

Saph
2007-02-13, 09:47 AM
I shouldn't have to say any more, but I'll repeat one more time: I'm not looking for cheese.

Several people have said it already, but just in case: What you're describing IS cheese. You've made a cheesy, game-breaking monster, and you want a non-cheesy, non-game-breaking way to kill it? That's just silly.

You made up the monster, you make up a spell that can kill it. Easy enough.

- Saph

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-13, 09:49 AM
Pretty much the only way to do this is going to be either sonic damage from various spells or blunt force trauma from dropped summoned items. There are countless ways to cheese this thing. Take Seed: Energy, pick Sonic, and give it craploads of damage dice (say one die for every HD the thing has). Then switch the targeting to something the thing can't deflect, pump up the Save and Spell Resistence caster check bonus, and maybe pump up the damage dice from measly d6s to d20s. Bring along plenty of Wizard hirelings, or consign yourself to taking this thing down no matter the cost by maxing out backlash and XP burn so you get the most bang for your buck.

Epic Psionics would own this thing,even with the Psionics-Magic transparency rule. Psionics have a great love of sonic damage AND type-choosable energy damage. It would be child's play to find the right power which ignores Spell Resistance and can be pumped to insane levels thanks to an Epic manifester level. Plus, with the sort of ability scores you can get in Epic, I imagine a Psion would have enough Power Points to throw psionic powers at this thing all day long. However, you said "spell" and not "psionic power", so I guess that's out.

However, there are no ways of actually killing it which don't involve cheese or preparation. A spellcaster's greatest strength is being able to back off, study something from a distance, and then using that study to formulate a plan and go in with buffs and spells prepared. Taking that away and making them start the fight within 100 feet of something that's likely to splat them with one paw/claw/hand/whatever-it-does-splatting-with AND likely to win initiative puts them at a grave disadvantage right from the start. They're pretty much going to have a Contingency prepared to teleport them to a safer location just to survive the initial round of combat.

And the CR of 45 is laughable. I don't care what calculations you used to generate them. They're wrong.

It's a cheesy situation which requires cheese to win. And don't try to say it's NOT cheese. You've created a monster which is immune to everything but sonic damage, resists enough Acid and Lightning to make those practically immunities as well, reflects pretty much ALL spells, and also has a Spell Resistance which makes it immune to the few items which might have gotten through all of the above.

In answer to your original question, though, yes there are spells which could hurt it. They're "cheese", which just means they fit in perfectly with this monster.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-13, 10:01 AM
I dunno, without DR even a non cheesy use of telekinesis could do a lot of damage. It's lack of DR is enough to seriously decrease it's CR.

Automatic quicken three times and multispell 17 times would make for 18 telekinesis casting in one round, at 15*2d6 a pop (greatswords) that is quite a lot of damage. Throw out some automatically quickened timestops so you can use some pearls of power to regain spells and rinse and repeat.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-13, 10:07 AM
Comedy answer: Wish, Miracle or Reality Revision. It's the bastard child of the Terrasque and gods-know what else. It's need one of them to kill it anyway.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-13, 10:08 AM
Destroy Cheese
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Long (200 ft. + 20 ft./level)
Target: 1 Cheese
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: N/A
Spell Resistance: No

You absolutely and irrevocably destroy a cheese. No saving throws, no spell resistance, no questions asked.


Sorry, I had to :p

daggaz
2007-02-13, 10:11 AM
Dont apologize, thats the best answer yet. Its even described in the DMG under 'researching new spells.' Of course, *this* DM would have some reason why you couldn't research that spell (cough cough its too overpowered cough) or why it just wouldnt work.
Personally, I would like to see the actual stats for this particular monster build. As several people have pointed out, it probably breaks all kinds of rules for monster advancement and abilities.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 12:06 PM
I'll bet you we'll be seeing a lot of zeros trailing after the stats. Quadrillian this, a bajillion that, ferfillion something else.

Vik
2007-02-13, 12:10 PM
I dunno, without DR even a non cheesy use of telekinesis could do a lot of damage. It's lack of DR is enough to seriously decrease it's CR. Being a Tarrasque with the Cheese template, I think that it has quite a high DR, an astronomic AC, a great regeneration and a few thousands of HP.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-13, 12:17 PM
This is actually quite simple - even doable with a level 15 kobold wizard.
Keep it in place with several walls of force/iron/stone. Cast Planar Bubble:Positive Energy Plane. After 20 turns (on average), it will fail a fort save and die from awesomeness.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 12:19 PM
or we can simply cast the Epic spell: Summon Chuck Norris and have him roundhouse the thing out of existence.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 12:23 PM
This is actually quite simple - even doable with a level 15 kobold wizard.
Keep it in place with several walls of force/iron/stone. Cast Planar Bubble:Positive Energy Plane. After 20 turns (on average), it will fail a fort save and die from awesomeness.

Nice. Don't send it to another plane; bring the other plane to it.

Very, very nice.

Shatenjager
2007-02-13, 12:27 PM
Alternatively, just planeshift in Donald Trump so he can fire it.

It's immune to fire, remember?

Talanic
2007-02-13, 12:30 PM
How about an upgraded version of the Black Tentacles spell? If you can pump it up so that the tentacles can grapple it, it doesn't allow spell resistance or saving throw and it does physical damage.

You're still going to have to make an epic spell to do it...I don't know the epic spell rules so maybe someone else would take a gander at it. It'd probably wind up being far lower spellcraft DC than the instant-death spell we saw earlier...but still cheese. I agree with earlier posters, the whole thing's cheese.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 12:32 PM
ooooo, I know!!! Summon Backhand slap to DM's head! That spell always works.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 12:41 PM
ooooo, I know!!! Summon Backhand slap to DM's head! That spell always works.

I think there's a Bigby's for that.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 12:42 PM
"bigby's pimpslap backhand"?

Telonius
2007-02-13, 01:00 PM
How many HD does this nasty thing have? If it's 45 or less, and you have some way of overcoming its spell resistance, you could paralyze it with a Blasphemy spell, then Coup de Gras.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 01:21 PM
How many HD does this nasty thing have? If it's 45 or less, and you have some way of overcoming its spell resistance, you could paralyze it with a Blasphemy spell, then Coup de Gras.

Spell Resistance 385 says "no to you". I can't think of a way to overcome that short of divine intervention, and even that's iffy at that level.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-13, 01:28 PM
No, it still applies to warlocks. There's no wording trick that negates it. [\quote]

Really...?

The only thing I've seen that had anything to do with the rule was on page 172 of the PHB:

[quote] A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space, It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Emphasis mine.

The warlock's invocations are not spells in any way. I think they qualify as eldrich abilities, which is typically a whole new barrel of monkeys. The thing that makes it argumentative is the description of the warlock's teleporty move and whether or not it follows the same rules anyway. If you have another source on it I'd be glad to hear it.

elliott20
2007-02-13, 01:37 PM
why are we still dignifying this? it's obvious this monster is just a bunch of big numbers thrown together. What's the friggin' point of it? How is there a "normal" way of dealing with such a thing when every conceivably "normal" method it is already immune to? What does he expect us to do? play 20 questions with it to figure it's achille's heel?

Telonius
2007-02-13, 01:38 PM
Spell Resistance 385 says "no to you". I can't think of a way to overcome that short of divine intervention, and even that's iffy at that level.

Maybe not with a wizard... but doesn't a Beguiler have some sort of ability that can do this?
EDIT: Hrm, but then a Beguiler can't cast Blasphemy normally, can it...

Roderick_BR
2007-02-13, 01:40 PM
Now, jokes aside, that creature was designed to be immune to magic. The few spells that don't need to overcome it's ridiculously high SR won't be able to harm it without hitting one of it's others immunities.
And it definitively is not a CR 45.

Okay, a good cheese: Take a 40th level epic paladin, with maxed charisma, and Smite Evil x10. If the monster is evil, he can deal 40 * 11 = 440 points of damage per attack, plus weapon, magic and strenght.

mikeejimbo
2007-02-13, 01:47 PM
Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.

I'd complain about killing catgirls, but they're dead already. You killed them with your 685 quadrillion damage.

Anyway, you win, as far as I'm concerned.

Yakk
2007-02-13, 01:57 PM
Violent Thrust

Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).

You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).

Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).


I just won D&D.

10 small hand crossbow bolts weigh 1/2 lb.

375 lbs is 7500 small hand crossbow bolts.

Each does the damage of a small dagger, or 1d3 damage.

So I do 15,000 damage on average. Assume I only hit on a 20, that is 750 damage per cast.

Cast 18 times in one round (cheese!), that is 13,500 damage done, on average, to something with arbitrary AC.

Remember, you didn't mention any DR. :)

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 01:59 PM
I'd complain about killing catgirls, but they're dead already. You killed them with your 685 quadrillion damage.

Anyway, you win, as far as I'm concerned.

Um...looking back over that, I kinda messed up. That isn't the right damage. in fact, it isn't even close.

I forgot to convert Kilograms into Grams. Therefore, tack on another 3 zeros to the end of the damage results.

My bad. :smallbiggrin:

(Not bad physics for a Theatre Major, though, eh?)

EDIT: And I think I'll sig that to commenmerate my accomplishment.

Penguinizer
2007-02-13, 02:00 PM
maybe my home brew spell, RFED...

or maybe not, as its a joke :P

but call pun pun.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 02:01 PM
Gotta join on the call for Avicenex to post the full stats of this monster. Because it really does seem like people are posting solutions and then it's revealed that this won't work because of high HD or regeneration or something. Please, just lay the whole thing on the table and let the planning commence.

My personal thought is, indeed, go crazy with the sonic orbs +metamagic. We've been told that the caster fighting it is CL 50. This means you could stack up a sickening number of PRCs. Like Ramza said, look at things like Incantatrix, Halruuan Elder, Archmage, etc. There might be some interesting things to do with Shadowcraft Mage.

A level 50 build gets access to (at minimum) 10 epic feats. Since epic spellcasting is out, that'll save us some. You can do a lot with that.

Edit: @Yakk: that won't work as well as you think. Note that it's not only a weight limitation, but also 1 object per caster level, maximum 15. So you could only throw 15 bolts.

Quietus
2007-02-13, 02:05 PM
Would an Archmage's Arcane Fire work on it? That is described as a ray, but it isn't a ray SPELL, it's a ray supernatural ability - which is of untyped damage, and doesn't allow SR. Even your 0-level spells would hit it for 5d6 damage at max Archmage level, no save or SR. Your 9th level ones would be 14d6 unresistable damage.

Penguinizer
2007-02-13, 02:06 PM
Maybe an infinite damage loop with forced share pain?

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-13, 02:16 PM
Major Creation is an excellent strategy, if you have 10 minutes to cast it.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 02:20 PM
Major Creation is an excellent strategy, if you have 10 minutes to cast it.

The OP didn't say anything in his OP about time limitations, just if there was "any spell that could damage it". *shrug* Isn't there an epic feat somewhere that would allow to to speed up that time? If not, go invisible while casting it. You won't go visible again until it spell goes off. Or go Greater Invisibility. It doesn't have Scent, or Blind-fight, or anything of a sensory nature. heck, if you're paranoid about it, Silent Spell the Major Creation and go invisible.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 02:24 PM
It doesn't have Scent, or Blind-fight, or anything of a sensory nature....that we know of.

Avicenex, please post the full stats.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 02:28 PM
...that we know of.

Avicenex, please post the full stats.

Well, we can only draw conclusions based on the information we have.

I agree, BTW. Post the stats.

*thumps mug on table, er...can of Mtn Dew on desk thus drawing stares from around the office*

Stats! Stats! Stats! Stats! Stats! Stats! Stats!

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 02:54 PM
Hehehe :smallbiggrin:
Right now we know it is a Half-Dragon Spellwarped Pseudonatural Monster of Legend Tarrasque with extra HD.

The thing that's bugging me right now is the spell resistance 385. Tarrasque has SR 32, and 48 HD. Pseudonatural template adds SR of HDx2, max 25. Monster of Legend can give SR 10+1/2 HD. Finally Spellwarped gives SR 11+HD. At base HD, assuming these all stack, which they do not, it has SR of only 150. To get the full 385, you'd have to add 157 HD. If you don't break the rules by allowing stacking, it'd have to have...let's see...374 HD, or almost 8 times as many as the original Tarrasque.

Now, according to the rules for monster advancement, this beast should be CR 80 if you cheat and let the Spell Resistance stack, or a whopping CR 137 if you don't.

This is why it would help to see the full stats, because as it is, it looks like the only way you can get the listed abilities at the given CR is by bending/breaking the monster rules.

Edit: I suppose it's possible for the beast to have taken the Improved Spell Resistance feat multiple times. That could drop it down to 196 extra HD, or CR 94.

oriong
2007-02-13, 02:59 PM
The only thing I've seen that had anything to do with the rule was on page 172 of the PHB:

This is because you did not take the time to actually read the dimension door spell.



If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.
If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) points of damage and the spell simply fails.




The warlock's invocations are not spells in any way. I think they qualify as eldrich abilities, which is typically a whole new barrel of monkeys. The thing that makes it argumentative is the description of the warlock's teleporty move and whether or not it follows the same rules anyway. If you have another source on it I'd be glad to hear it.


This is wrong too, the warlock's invocations are spell like abilities which it says specifically in the class description, meaning they function just like a spell unless otherwise specified.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-13, 03:12 PM
Here's a way: Cloud of Knives + Smiting Spelled Overwhelm.

oriong
2007-02-13, 03:37 PM
Just thought of something: Sonic Orb will still hurt it since it is not a targeted spell, so it won't be reflected back.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 03:38 PM
That would work, Fax, and is a nice combo, except the thing is immune to Mind-Affecting, which Overwhelm is. It also allows for SR, which this thing has too much of.

Edit: Oh, and Avicenex: post the stats :smallbiggrin:

crazedloon
2007-02-13, 03:46 PM
Ok fine you want non cheese well how about a epic druid just polymorph into one and then beat it to death with its own invicibility or am i missing something after all if it cant kill itself it cant kill you and you have yourself a stail mate :smallwink:

Avicenex
2007-02-13, 03:52 PM
And the CR of 45 is laughable. I don't care what calculations you used to generate them. They're wrong.


All I did was add templates and hit dice. That's it. By RAW, it's perfectly legitimate. And honestly, with all the stuff epic casters can do, it's not even close to unbeatable.


I'll go ahead and say it... the SR probably makes this thing well above CR 45. It's impossible for GODS to get SR that high. Ao doesn't have SR that high. Nobody does.

Wrong. I'll show you why in a sec...


Let's see, rays, lines, cones, and magic missiles are reflected. The orb spells are not in any of these categories, so that part isn't a problem.

Permanent Spell Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) has this little caveat: "Effect and area spells are not affected." The orb spells are effect spells, as evidenced by the line "Effect: one orb of _____" in each one's stat block. This defense is therefore bypassed.

SR is negated by the very simple "Spell Resistance: No" line for each orb spell.

All that's left are the high saves and energy resistances, and the saves only halve the damage, there's an orb for each energy type, and it doesn't have resistance to all of them.

The Orb spells work, though you would need a fair bit of metamagic to bring the damage up high enough to be worthwhile at that level.

I guess I've been reading the orb spells wrong. In that case, it's quite simple to stack up a bunch of sonic orbs and overwhelm it with an ungodly amount of spells per round (thanks to Multispell, Automatic Quicken, and Time Stop).


I would like to see the actual stats for this particular monster build. As several people have pointed out, it probably breaks all kinds of rules for monster advancement and abilities.


Gotta join on the call for Avicenex to post the full stats of this monster.

Alright, I'll post it. Also, I should point out that there are TWO Psuedonatural templates. ONE of them is the pansy one found in Complete Arcane and a few other books. The other (the one I applied) is from the EPIC book, and is far better. Read it: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalTroll.htm

The stats of the monster can be found here:
http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=1297

Besides the orb spells, I found a nice friendly spell called "Obedient Avalanche" which can do a nice load of damage (just change cold to sonic). Maximized with rods and with a few Pearls of Power (lvl 9) Mr. Monster can be easily taken out.

I think the topics been settled then...

EDIT: Forgot to address this. Look closely at the epic psuedonatural template and you'll notice that its spell resistance is equal to its HD (77) x 5. That's on SRD and in the origonal epic handbook text.

mikeejimbo
2007-02-13, 03:59 PM
Um...looking back over that, I kinda messed up. That isn't the right damage. in fact, it isn't even close.

I forgot to convert Kilograms into Grams. Therefore, tack on another 3 zeros to the end of the damage results.

My bad. :smallbiggrin:

(Not bad physics for a Theatre Major, though, eh?)

EDIT: And I think I'll sig that to commenmerate my accomplishment.

So, that just makes it quintillion instead of quadrillion damage. It hardly matters, dead's dead. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2007-02-13, 04:02 PM
That would work, Fax, and is a nice combo, except the thing is immune to Mind-Affecting, which Overwhelm is. It also allows for SR, which this thing has too much of.

Edit: Oh, and Avicenex: post the stats :smallbiggrin:

Alright, then forget the Cloud of Knives and go Black Blade of Disaster.

Santanya
2007-02-13, 04:05 PM
This looks like a job for a warlock to me.

One vitrolic blast, coming up, well, if you concider it a spell I suppose. Its a spell-like ability. and ignores SR.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-13, 04:13 PM
Can anyone with the Epic Level Handbook verify the Psuedonatural template? Specifically, if there are any extra conditions (fluffy or otherwise) not mentioned in the SRD? Because if not... Daaaaaamn.

If that's a fully accurate representation of the Psuedonatural template (and if the Psuedonatural template in Complete Arcane isn't errata for this one), I think it might take the trophy for most broken template ever based on it's SR increase alone.

oriong
2007-02-13, 04:18 PM
The Pseudonatural template is very nasty (it is not the same as the one from complete arcane by the way).

The template is at the bottom of the pseudonatural troll entry http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalTroll.htm

The real purpose of the Pseudonatural template seems to be making non-epic monsters into epic-level challenges, so it becomes broken quite quickly if put on anything that is Epic or Near Epic.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-13, 04:18 PM
Can anyone with the Epic Level Handbook verify the Psuedonatural template? Specifically, if there are any extra conditions (fluffy or otherwise) not mentioned in the SRD? Because if not... Daaaaaamn.

If that's a fully accurate representation of the Psuedonatural template (and if the Psuedonatural template in Complete Arcane isn't errata for this one), I think it might take the trophy for most broken template ever based on it's SR increase alone.

Merry Christmas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)

Also, I believe that Pseudonatural creatures come from the Far Realms of Madness, so it's understandable if they're a touch more resilient than your average monster.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 04:27 PM
Can anyone with the Epic Level Handbook verify the Psuedonatural template? Specifically, if there are any extra conditions (fluffy or otherwise) not mentioned in the SRD? Because if not... Daaaaaamn.

If that's a fully accurate representation of the Psuedonatural template (and if the Psuedonatural template in Complete Arcane isn't errata for this one), I think it might take the trophy for most broken template ever based on it's SR increase alone.

Yes, the SRD is correct. Trust me, I immediately cracked open my copy of the ELHB and double-checked.

SR=x5 HD.

The only thing I can't recall is if that's the creature's BASE HDx5 or the creature's total HD (adding in the other templates). The Tarresque has 48 HD. Which gives it SR 240. Nevermind - still broken.

Avicenex
2007-02-13, 04:34 PM
This looks like a job for a warlock to me.

One vitrolic blast, coming up, well, if you concider it a spell I suppose. Its a spell-like ability. and ignores SR.

That works really well if you ignore the rules. Unfortunatly...


Spell Resistance

... Only spells and spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) are subject to spell resistance.
Spell-like abilities can't bypass spell resistance. Sorry.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-13, 04:34 PM
T'is killable, by the power of epic cheese!

Or sonic orb 0.o.

Screw it, here we go. Intensified admixtured empowered quickened enhanced arcane thesised, twinned, repeated, enervating, enlarged, energy substitution (sonic) fire orb.

Insert appropriate metamagic reducers here. That's 600 sonic damage per hit, a mere 6 hits takes it out. 14 touch AC, it's screwed. Over. (Whoops, can't combine empower and intensify. Damn. So 400) (x1.5 for enervating, so 600 again! also, energy substitution, for 1d6 instead of 1d4, so 900!)


And celerity. Never forget celerity.

I win initiative (celerity), blast it, (multispell x10) 10 (x2, twinned, x2 again, repeat spell) times, it takes 36000 damage, assiming I roll no natural 1's. Next

If it's not dead, I (quickened) dimension door 600 ft away from it, and do the same next turn. I can use at least 40 of those orbs. Wish to finish.

EDIT: Multispell x 10, + intensify, and enhance, improved metamagic x6, 18 of my 19 epic feats, empower, maximize, quicken, arcane thesis, energy admixture energy substitution twin spell repeat spell enervate spell, enlarge spell, 10 of the at least 11 feats.

And note on telekenesis it says you can throw as many objects as caster levels, max 15.

Oh yeah, twinned. So I can get rid of some of the multispells.

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-13, 04:35 PM
That works really well if you ignore the rules. Unfortunatly...

Spell-like abilities can't bypass spell resistance. Sorry.
Ignore what rules? Vitriolic blast doesn't allow SR.

Ramza00
2007-02-13, 04:39 PM
That works really well if you ignore the rules. Unfortunatly...

Spell-like abilities can't bypass spell resistance. Sorry.

As a normal rule for most spell like abilities you are correct. Vitriolic blast is an exception though and it says specifically in the description of the essence. (It is similar to Acid Arrow, is a conjuration effect that then does acid damage)

Seriously what is the stats for the monster?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-13, 04:42 PM
A sufficiently high-level Shadowcaster using low-level Supernatural abilities avoids SR.

EDIT: And has infinite fundamentals. So theoretically could Arrow of Fatigue the target into oblivion.

oriong
2007-02-13, 04:52 PM
Unfortunately Vitrolic Blast's damage will have a hell of a time penetrating Acid Resistance 105, and the beast's Regeneration.

You'd have to use something like Eldritch Doom but a level 45 warlock with Empower and Maximize on his blast should be able to wear the critter down.

krossbow
2007-02-13, 04:55 PM
couldn't you just make a platform held by immovable rods or walls of force, and then create a few million tons of walls of iron on it? Then either dispell the wall of force or remove the immovable rods and smash the thing? (while at the same time causing a massive amount of inflation in the iron market).

Avicenex
2007-02-13, 04:59 PM
As a normal rule for most spell like abilities you are correct. Vitriolic blast is an exception though and it says specifically in the description of the essence. (It is similar to Acid Arrow, is a conjuration effect that then does acid damage)

Seriously what is the stats for the monster?

That's what I get for not reading. Didn't Vitriolic blast didn't allow, I was just talking about normal spell-like abilities. However, you might want to rethink your choice of weapon. Vitriolic blast does acid damage, and this thing resists up to 105 points of acid damage. (Beaten to it)

Monster stats are already posted above, just clicky the link.

Also, I now realize Orbs of Sound can take this thing down easily. Origonally I was confused by the wording of the spell and though it would be reflected by the permanent spell turning Mr. Monster has (Spell Turning reflects all targeted spells, and by orb of sound being a ranged touch attack, I assumed it was specifically targeting Mr. Monster, and therefore would be reflected).

EDIT: Saw something about invisibility and wanted to point out its unneccisary. On top of that, it's useless. Mr. Monster has a spot check of +96, and it's a mere DC 40 spot check to spot an unmoving invisible creature. On top of that, Constant Insight assures that any miss chance from concealment is completely negated.

Rigeld2
2007-02-13, 05:57 PM
There are no Solars used in the killing of your monster (directly). They all stay on my little home plane I created. They just happened to help me create this spell an arbitrary amount of time ago, and this spell is an AoE ball (of no particular energy type) that does 10,000d6 damage, and takes 1 round to cast with no backlash, and is guaranteed to get through SR over about 800.
And why wasnt this valid? Just curious /shrug.

The Glyphstone
2007-02-13, 05:59 PM
And why wasnt this valid? Just curious /shrug.

I think he prohibited Epic Spellcasting outright. Dunno why...

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-13, 06:07 PM
Merry Christmas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)

Also, I believe that Pseudonatural creatures come from the Far Realms of Madness, so it's understandable if they're a touch more resilient than your average monster.

Template Comparison
{table]Item|Psuedonatural|Paragon|Advantage
Hit Die|Max/HD|Max+12/HD|Paragon
Speed|Doubles|Triples|Paragon
Armor Class|+35 Natural|+12 Insight, +12 Luck, +5 Natural|Psuedonatural
Attacks|+15 Insight, Extra attacks based on HD|+25 Luck|Psuedonatural
Damage|2d8+STR|Weapon+STR+20(Luck)|Paragon
Special Attacks|Rotting Constriction, Improved Grab|+13 Insight to Special Attacks|Psuedonatural
Spell-Likes|At Will-Blur, Dimension Door, Shield, Unhallow|+15 CL, G Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisible 3/day|Paragon
Special Qualities|Way Better|Way Worse|Psuedonatural
Saving Throws|As Creature|+10 Insight|Paragon
Abilities|Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence 3+|All+15|Paragon
Skills|As Creature|+10 Insight|Paragon
Feats|As Creature|One Bonus Feat|Paragon
CR|1-6 HD=+16, 7-15=+13, 16+=+10|+15|Psuedonatural[/table]
I think it's actually pretty even. I might give the Psuedonatural the edge based on it's insane Spell Resistance and number of attacks, though.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-13, 06:10 PM
Or, one could do a Paragon Pseudonatural...

Druid
2007-02-13, 06:13 PM
Forcecage + opened decanter of endless water :smallbiggrin:

This reminds of the time when somebody over on GameFAQs figured out how long you'd have to leave a decanter of endless water inside a box made from permenant walls of force before the matter would compress so far that it would create a black whole. I think that the answer was over a billion years. Not that any of this is relevent to the topic at hand, I just think that it's a cool idea.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-13, 06:17 PM
Or, one could do a Paragon Pseudonatural...

Oh my... That would be so wrong on so many levels....

tarbrush
2007-02-13, 06:29 PM
Major Creation is an excellent strategy, if you have 10 minutes to cast it.

Not really. Eschew materials only allows for you ignore spell components worth less than 1gp. I admit that there's no list price for antimatter, but I'm guessing it's more than 1gp.

Of course the truly sneaky way to do it is to make an antimatter gold piece.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-13, 06:37 PM
Gah, we're EPIC here, people!

Ignore Material Components!

Eighth_Seraph
2007-02-13, 08:05 PM
Just out of curiosity, Avecenex, is the whole point of this thread to make absolutely sure that this creature is invincible? Because it just seems like any time you see something that might work to defeat this thing, you consider it a mistake on your part. In any case, I agree with the long-ago comments that suggesting a spell be made to defeat the Atrriax is in essence asking for as heaping plateful of gorgonzola. What was the purpose of posting this abomination on the boards?

oriong
2007-02-13, 08:25 PM
actually pretty even. I might give the Psuedonatural the edge based on it's insane Spell Resistance and number of attacks, though.

Well, it helps to keep in mind that there are creatures with higher spell resistance, even at non-epic levels: for instance every single golem. It might help to just think of the template as giving Spell Immunity once it passes a certain point so the huge number doesn't seem quite so crazy.

Avicenex
2007-02-13, 09:15 PM
I think he prohibited Epic Spellcasting outright. Dunno why...

I never said "no epic spells." I just said I didn't want insane solar cheese or the like. Given enough time and solars there is no problem that can't be solved.


Just out of curiosity, Avecenex, is the whole point of this thread to make absolutely sure that this creature is invincible? Because it just seems like any time you see something that might work to defeat this thing, you consider it a mistake on your part. In any case, I agree with the long-ago comments that suggesting a spell be made to defeat the Atrriax is in essence asking for as heaping plateful of gorgonzola. What was the purpose of posting this abomination on the boards?

This creature isn't by any means invicible. I wanted to see if there was a spell that could be used in combat for a caster I was making to destroy Mr. Monster. I know there are spells that can plane-shift him to Plane of Deadly Die-Time X. I know there's gate, which can be used at around level 11 to create an unstoppable mob of solars that can defeat just about anything. The point was the find other spells that weren't so cheese-laden. Fact is, he can be beatin the following ways:

-A fast ranged attacker who can simply keep far enough away as to be untouchable
-A melee attacker englarged and given enough reach to simply bludgeon Mr. Monster into submission with no problem
-Spamming of spells like Orb of Sound or Obedient Avalanche
-Gated to the plane of Positive or Negative Energy
-Have an arbitrarly high number of Solars/Titans gated in to stomp him into oblivion
-Use a ritual epic spell to simply kill him from your personal plane with an unbeatable save
-Bombarded with super-heavy objects dropped on him to do insane amounts of damage

The one in italics was the one I was looking for. That's all. Mr. Monster isn't invicible, or even close. There's nothing invincible at epic levels.

NullAshton
2007-02-13, 09:23 PM
A ghost above level 15 is impossible to kill. IMPOSSIBLE. Nothing that you ever create would permanently destroy the ghost. Thus, there is something invincible even at non-epic levels. Just have a ghost with an openended reason for staying on the material plane!

kamikasei
2007-02-13, 09:43 PM
I just won D&D.

10 small hand crossbow bolts weigh 1/2 lb.

375 lbs is 7500 small hand crossbow bolts.

Ah, but:

You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15)

The object number limit kicks in before the weight limit.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-13, 10:02 PM
A ghost above level 15 is impossible to kill. IMPOSSIBLE. Nothing that you ever create would permanently destroy the ghost. Thus, there is something invincible even at non-epic levels. Just have a ghost with an openended reason for staying on the material plane!

You could command it, rendering it no longer a threat (albeit not destroyed). You could bind it into your Flesh Colossus. You could Forecage it, Gate in a powerful devil, and sell it to him. You could hire an Agent Retriever to take it to Pelor (turn it first, so that it will be too busy cowering in terror to destroy the Force Sphere if it has such methods).

Jack_Simth
2007-02-13, 10:04 PM
A ghost above level 15 is impossible to kill. IMPOSSIBLE. Nothing that you ever create would permanently destroy the ghost. Thus, there is something invincible even at non-epic levels. Just have a ghost with an openended reason for staying on the material plane!
That is not entirely true.

Rejuvination is a Su ability, not an Ex ability. Technically, if you arrange for an AMF, the ability can be suppressed.

Now, what happens if the ability that brings you back is suppressed when you're killed?

Pretty much everything is subject to a Trigger Object Trap the Soul. And if you can steal a ghost's real equipment, and set THAT up as the trigger object, and give it back... well... the Ghost can't not accept it....

Mewtarthio
2007-02-13, 10:17 PM
That is not entirely true.

Rejuvination is a Su ability, not an Ex ability. Technically, if you arrange for an AMF, the ability can be suppressed.

Now, what happens if the ability that brings you back is suppressed when you're killed?

The Ghost itself winks out in the AMF, preventing you from killing it.


Pretty much everything is subject to a Trigger Object Trap the Soul. And if you can steal a ghost's real equipment, and set THAT up as the trigger object, and give it back... well... the Ghost can't not accept it....

That would work, too. The only remaining question is: Do you sell the gem to Pelor or Asmodeus?

PinkysBrain
2007-02-13, 10:28 PM
Ah, but:

You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15)

The object number limit kicks in before the weight limit.
Which is why if you want to be cheesy about it you use colossal++++ bolts.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-14, 12:01 PM
A use activated object of infinite planar bubble is enough, when combined with a ring of solar wings - positive bubble / fly away 150ft. Since I don't know the gold by level amount, all you need is a character that can afford 358000gp of stuff, and then Atrriax is dead, without the resorting to cheese.

EDIT: Nice touch that it has every skill as a class skill - just in case it needs to disguise as something.

Lokey
2007-02-14, 05:59 PM
Screw it, here we go. Intensified admixtured empowered quickened enhanced arcane thesised, twinned, repeated, enervating, enlarged, energy substitution (sonic) fire orb.

Insert appropriate metamagic reducers here. That's 600 sonic damage per hit, a mere 6 hits takes it out. 14 touch AC, it's screwed. Over. (Whoops, can't combine empower and intensify. Damn. So 400) (x1.5 for enervating, so 600 again! also, energy substitution, for 1d6 instead of 1d4, so 900!)


And celerity. Never forget celerity.

I win initiative (celerity), blast it, (multispell x10) 10 (x2, twinned, x2 again, repeat spell) times, it takes 36000 damage, assiming I roll no natural 1's.
:: Is scared ::

the_tick_rules
2007-02-14, 06:01 PM
unless your bringing out the epic level handbook no, run and hide. what's it's ac, hit points and physcial attacks data? unless they're comprable meele seems like the only viable option.

Avicenex
2007-02-14, 06:46 PM
EDIT: Nice touch that it has every skill as a class skill - just in case it needs to disguise as something.

Because disguise is so useful to a collosal abomination of nature whose urge to destroy and feed is like a raging addiction. Whoops, I got some sarcasm on the floor. It's dripping, you see.

One possible explaination is that I simply forgot to uncheck all the skills as "class skills."
Naaaaaah.


unless your bringing out the epic level handbook no, run and hide. what's it's ac, hit points and physcial attacks data? unless they're comprable meele seems like the only viable option.

I think page 3 has the link to the stats. If you think melee is the only viable option, you obviously haven't been reading the thread, which has already come up with a dozen spells that can obliverate it. Melee is probably the worst option.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-14, 07:04 PM
First off, we Sudden Maximize a Time Stop. This gives us five rounds of prep.

Round 1-4: Surround the big nasty critter with four Walls of Force to keep him in place.

Round 5: Polymorph Any Object the GROUND UNDERNEATH HIM into Acid (he is immune to fire, but not acid, so far as I know).

Timestop ends. Criter falls into a vat of acid. Eventually dies from immersion in acid, may take a while, though. Forgot how much damage complete immersion in acid does. I know Lava does 20d6/round, but this thing is immune to fire, so no dice.

There are some critters you can take down through conventional means,

For everything else, there's PolyCheeze.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-14, 07:08 PM
First off, we Sudden Maximize a Time Stop. This gives us five rounds of prep.

Round 1-4: Surround the big nasty critter with four Walls of Force to keep him in place.

Round 5: Polymorph Any Object the GROUND UNDERNEATH HIM into Acid (he is immune to fire, but not acid, so far as I know).

Timestop ends. Criter falls into a vat of acid. Eventually dies from immersion in acid, may take a while, though. Forgot how much damage complete immersion in acid does. I know Lava does 20d6/round, but this thing is immune to fire, so no dice.

There are some critters you can take down through conventional means,

For everything else, there's PolyCheeze.

Material Components: 50,000 gold.

Rezzing the bait fighter: 25,000 gold.

Equipment for the ordeal: 373,000 gold.

Owning incredibly with technicalities: Priceless.

Grendita
2007-02-14, 07:25 PM
EDIT: Nice touch that it has every skill as a class skill - just in case it needs to disguise as something.

Did someone mention Disguise...

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8889/tarrasquedisguisevw4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That should go nicely with its bluff :smallbiggrin:

Quietus
2007-02-14, 07:35 PM
That would totally fool me.

Avicenex
2007-02-14, 07:52 PM
I think immersion in acid was already suggested, and there's way better ways of going about it. Does immersion in acid do over 145 damage a round? Because this guy has Resist Acid 105, and regeneration 40. You might be waiting a loooong time.

Also, those glasses totally threw me off. I was like "who is that intellegent looking humanoid there?" so when I stopped failing spot check, you can imagine my suprise.

Why would you get Sudden Maximize when you can get a Greater Rod of it? Money isn't really a problem at that level, and then you can mazimize three timestops (without waste of a feat). Of course, since you've got Automatic Quicken three times and Multispell at least three times, that's at least 16 rounds, all of which you can cast five spells per round in. There are better things to cast than walls of force and polymorph with that kind of time...

Quietus
2007-02-14, 08:00 PM
Does it need to breathe? Use the above idea, and a huge amount of Transmute Rock to Mud. Let it sink in over its head then Transmute Mud to Rock.

oriong
2007-02-14, 08:08 PM
Immersion in acid only does 10d6 a round, wouldn't have much chance of breaking through his regeneration even as a normal tarrasque, and it certainly won't do anything like the amount of damage needed to kill it in the 1 round/level that the walls of force will stay up.

EDIT: Transmute Rock to Mud can't create mud deeper than 10 feet. He'd only be wading. And he can certainly break free if you turn it to stone.

Quietus
2007-02-14, 08:12 PM
Actually.... are we allowed to use Epic spells?

I developed an epic spell for one character I was asked to create which was pretty scary - touch range, used the Energy seed. Touch the target, and they radiate an aura of damage of the appropriate element that does damage every round, INCLUDING to the beast carrying the aura. Pack up on breaking SR and some sonic damage, and hit it with that. It lasts for 20 hours... that's a lot of aura pulses.

But we aren't supposed to use epic spells for this are we?


::Edit:: Oohhhh, that's right... you aren't allowed to do that 'cause it reflects any spell that specifically targets it. That's right. In that case, make an unbreakable collar that does the same thing, time stop, drop the collar around its neck. Voila.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-14, 08:41 PM
Immersion in acid only does 10d6 a round, wouldn't have much chance of breaking through his regeneration even as a normal tarrasque, and it certainly won't do anything like the amount of damage needed to kill it in the 1 round/level that the walls of force will stay up.


Wouldn't need to only be 1 rd/lvl. The only reason why you put up the walls is to keep it from escaping the first round. After that, it sinks like a rock to the bottom of the pool of acid, which is far deeper than it is tall (2,000 cu.ft. should be more than enough), keeping it effectively trapped unless it has some kind of burrow speed.

At least it's a way to keep it contained until you can come up with a better way of dealing with it.

Grendita
2007-02-14, 09:05 PM
Wouldn't need to only be 1 rd/lvl. The only reason why you put up the walls is to keep it from escaping the first round. After that, it sinks like a rock to the bottom of the pool of acid, which is far deeper than it is tall (2,000 cu.ft. should be more than enough), keeping it effectively trapped unless it has some kind of burrow speed.

At least it's a way to keep it contained until you can come up with a better way of dealing with it.

Acid is a liquid, so if its totally immersed, and can't get out, it will Drown. and it could prolly swim to the top and climb out given its strength score, leaving just the walls hold it in

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-14, 09:17 PM
Acid is a liquid, so if its totally immersed, and can't get out, it will Drown. and it could prolly swim to the top and climb out given its strength score, leaving just the walls hold it in

Considering how much the thing weighs, I think this is doubtful at best. At the risk of injuring Catgirls, it's paws are not normally ideally suited to swimming, and it's density alone would keep it on the bottom. It weighs how much? Yea... elephants can't swim either, and they're not as big as this baby is. Unfortunately for Mr. UberT, he doesn't have a trunk to breathe out of.

Jack Mann
2007-02-14, 10:09 PM
Yea... elephants can't swim either, and they're not as big as this baby is.

Yes they can. They're actually pretty decent swimmers. This page (http://www.upali.ch/swim_en.html) has video of elephants swimming.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-14, 10:17 PM
Mr. T has Power Attack and a lot of natural attacks, and a lot of stat bonus to get attack bonus from.

What's the AC of the ground underneath him?

Granite only has 900 HP per five-foot cube.

Mr. T doesn't need a burrow speed.

Avicenex
2007-02-14, 10:27 PM
Let's assume that he can't swim (or climb) even though physics doesn't apply to d&d. So?
Check out his spell-like abilities. You'll see he can dimension-door at will. That's 1200 feet in any direction, and it doesn't matter if there's a wall there.
Put him in an antimagic field? Notice something else: He has a fly speed.
And yeah, he could just burrow too.
Pits and walls are not the answer. The other solutions are much more efficient, and much better.

oriong
2007-02-14, 10:55 PM
Can't swim? The tarrasque can swim just fine. He's got +17 to his swim check and there's no reason at all why he'd 'sink like a stone'. Human beings don't sink instantly to the bottom of a pool when they're thrown in do they? Weight isn't the issue, it's density. By RAW he can swim perfectly fine, and by physics he can swim just as easily as a human can, if not better.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-14, 11:01 PM
There's a real easy answer, but it's not the one you're looking for...

epic level PsiWar/Swordsage could likely take the thing out without too many hassles, given the right build. Say he starts out as a half-giant, you could get up to Gargantuan sized weapons with nothing more complicated than an augmented Expansion power, then literally go toe-to-toe with it, doing hundreds of damage per hit. Psionic Lion's Charge to get full attack on a Heck, you might even be able to trip the thing. IIRC, you're only one size category smaller, with Improved Trip, a Spiked Chain, and a whole lot of cheeze, it may well be possible to keep it from attacking you by keeping it prone.

Yea, I already know, you're wanting to kill it with a spell. Well, guess what... when you make it nearly immune to spells, it's just easier to do it with melee. Sure, it's possible (pimped-out sonic ball barrage, for instance), but why bother when your local friendly meat shield can go toe to toe with it?

And quite frankly, it wouldn't be too hard to build a 'tank' build capable of taking this critter on. Bring on the psudonatural et al... I'll break out the Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Psionic Lion's Charge/whatever I can find in ToB to simply smite this thing in a single blow. Then use a Ring of Three Wishes to wish it dead.

When life gives you magic immune critters... bring out the tank.

oriong
2007-02-14, 11:19 PM
I don't know if tanking is a good way to go. The thing is an absolute horror in melee.

It'll be easy as hell to actually hit at level 45 (AC 45 from pseudonatural template, plus possible bonuses from Shield spell and any other template bonuses) so power attacking to hit shouldn't be a big issue, you can probably penetrate regeneration fairly easily each round, but unless you can manage to get out something like 1,600 damage in a single round you stand to get brutally, brutally destroyed when the thing counterattacks (assuming it hasn't beaten initiative and gotten the first hit in).

Tripping it doesn't keep it from attacking you at all, it's just a -4 penalty to attack. The thing's attack bonus will be enormous (over +100) and it gets 18 attacks per round. The damage from each attack is relatively negligible (something in the region of 45 each hit). What matters is the fact that once it gets hold of you it can drain up to 36d4 Con a round, and gaining back up to 180 hit points in addition to it's regeneration.

And this is only the abilities gained from the pseudonatural template and it's 75 tarrasque HD. It's other templates will no doubt make it more dangerous.

With 45 levels to play with I'm sure this isn't an impossible challenge, but I certainly wouldn't count on the melee tank without seeing a build.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-15, 12:03 AM
I don't know if tanking is a good way to go. The thing is an absolute horror in melee.

It'll be easy as hell to actually hit at level 45 (AC 45 from pseudonatural template, plus possible bonuses from Shield spell and any other template bonuses) so power attacking to hit shouldn't be a big issue, you can probably penetrate regeneration fairly easily each round, but unless you can manage to get out something like 1,600 damage in a single round you stand to get brutally, brutally destroyed when the thing counterattacks (assuming it hasn't beaten initiative and gotten the first hit in).

Tripping it doesn't keep it from attacking you at all, it's just a -4 penalty to attack. The thing's attack bonus will be enormous (over +100) and it gets 18 attacks per round. The damage from each attack is relatively negligible (something in the region of 45 each hit). What matters is the fact that once it gets hold of you it can drain up to 36d4 Con a round, and gaining back up to 180 hit points in addition to it's regeneration.

And this is only the abilities gained from the pseudonatural template and it's 75 tarrasque HD. It's other templates will no doubt make it more dangerous.

With 45 levels to play with I'm sure this isn't an impossible challenge, but I certainly wouldn't count on the melee tank without seeing a build.

Take it to the CharOp boards. They'll be able to solve the challenge in minutes. In fact, that's probably a better place to have brought the original topic.

Just off hand, PsiWar10/Slayer10/Swordsage20.

Round 1: Make a Concentration check to make sure I go first. Leap in with my Gargantuan-sized two-handed weapon of choice. Psionic Lion's Charge to make a full attack. Use something from ToB to increase damage even further. Dish out a few thousand damage in the first round. Use Ring to make it dead for good.

Round 2: Pose for the cameras with your foot resting on the thing's head, flashing that derring-do-good smile.

Armads
2007-02-15, 03:44 AM
maximized empowered piercing cold energy sub (cold) cold fire seeds!

8 seeds, reflex save for half, damage = 43 per seed, 21 if save succeeds

i CAN damage it. Fire seeds is an AoE which does not allow SR

for killing it, theres always using epic handle animal to get a paragon half-dragon ghost evolved undead (x NI) devastation beetle and then sending the 'champions' to fight each other to death

the DC of rearing one? why, its
40 + HD = 168
ring of handle animal +100, 53 ranks, take 10, skill focus (handle animal), animal affinity, epic skill focus (handle animal), masterwork tool, thats ... +180. enough time to even slap on the multiheaded template on it
this one has SR NI, 35 tentacles, NI strength and cha, and all sorts of horrible brokenness

Turcano
2007-02-15, 03:45 AM
Destroy Cheese
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Long (200 ft. + 20 ft./level)
Target: 1 Cheese
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: N/A
Spell Resistance: No

You absolutely and irrevocably destroy a cheese. No saving throws, no spell resistance, no questions asked.

This spell is made of win. Seriously, every DM should learn it.

Quietus
2007-02-15, 09:01 AM
It comes as one of the first-level benefits of the DM class.

We simply learn to refine it as we gain levels.

Avicenex
2007-02-15, 03:29 PM
maximized empowered piercing cold energy sub (cold) cold fire seeds!

8 seeds, reflex save for half, damage = 43 per seed, 21 if save succeeds

i CAN damage it. Fire seeds is an AoE which does not allow SR

for killing it, theres always using epic handle animal to get a paragon half-dragon ghost evolved undead (x NI) devastation beetle and then sending the 'champions' to fight each other to death

the DC of rearing one? why, its
40 + HD = 168
ring of handle animal +100, 53 ranks, take 10, skill focus (handle animal), animal affinity, epic skill focus (handle animal), masterwork tool, thats ... +180. enough time to even slap on the multiheaded template on it
this one has SR NI, 35 tentacles, NI strength and cha, and all sorts of horrible brokenness

Sonic seeds would be far more effective--one less metamagic you have to add

Also, you appear to be under the delusion that you can arbitrarly apply templates to a creature with no cost. First of all, you can't. Second of all, you screwed up. Ghost template takes away its beautiful constitution and natural armor, and evolved undead is pathetic. If you're going to add templates to something, add epic psuedonatural or paragon.

Third, you might also notice a Devastation Beetle alone has a CR of 50 (versus Attriax's CR of 45). Once you've added templates, the beetle it has an even higher CR. And making a creature of higher CR to defeat a creature of lower CR is child's play. Though even with all the templates you've added, I'm still not sure you could defeat Mr. Monster.


This spell is made of win. Seriously, every DM should learn it.

The DM already has the most powerful spell: Rocks Fall Everyone Dies. It's way cooler.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-15, 04:57 PM
Why would anyone use the fire seeds when you can use the beautiful pimped out sonic barrage?

*Nukes* *Dimension doors*

*Thing dimension doors*

*Laughs as it can't attack and is nuked by repeat spell*

Tor the Fallen
2007-02-16, 07:01 AM
Guys, six pages, and no mention of the awesomeness that is....





The Bard?


Max Bluff. Take the needed feats to make it better. Charisma as primary stat. Buff the good lord out of that. Epic items, stat boosts, the works.

Cast Glibness.

You're bluff check will be at least +150. Even on a nat 20 and with 100 wisdom, it has no hope in Hades to catch you lying.

Now you can tell it to do really whatever you want.
"Hey, you, yeah you, with the face. I just farted. IT stinks really bad. You should hold your breath.
....
....
....
Man, it still stinks, don't breathe yet.
....
....
....
....
Goddamn, this is one foul fart! For your sake, keep holding your breathe!"

Eventually it suffocates.

Or convince it has been possessed by the Great Demon Cheese, but he happens to be in luck, because you can exorcise it for him. All he has to do is lower is spell resistance....

Rigeld2
2007-02-16, 08:05 AM
Sonic seeds would be far more effective--one less metamagic you have to add
You cant Energy Sub sonic.

Ramza00
2007-02-16, 09:58 AM
You can't energy sub in 3.5 (could in 3.0). But you can elven spell lore it (PHBII)

Telonius
2007-02-16, 10:15 AM
Guys, six pages, and no mention of the awesomeness that is....





The Bard?


Max Bluff. Take the needed feats to make it better. Charisma as primary stat. Buff the good lord out of that. Epic items, stat boosts, the works.

Cast Glibness.

You're bluff check will be at least +150. Even on a nat 20 and with 100 wisdom, it has no hope in Hades to catch you lying.

Now you can tell it to do really whatever you want.
"Hey, you, yeah you, with the face. I just farted. IT stinks really bad. You should hold your breath.
....
....
....
Man, it still stinks, don't breathe yet.
....
....
....
....
Goddamn, this is one foul fart! For your sake, keep holding your breathe!"

Eventually it suffocates.

Or convince it has been possessed by the Great Demon Cheese, but he happens to be in luck, because you can exorcise it for him. All he has to do is lower is spell resistance....

Good strategy, but that assumes it has a language.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-16, 10:35 AM
Good strategy, but that assumes it has a language.

Smack it with tongues.

Conversely, be an Epic Mindbender and make it your slave.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-16, 04:10 PM
You can't energy sub in 3.5 (could in 3.0). But you can elven spell lore it (PHBII)

One level in Archmage... Mastery of Elements. Now everything you throw can be Sonic at no additional cost to you.

Laesin
2007-02-22, 09:55 PM
Why kill it? With a few house rules this is the perfect high epic level companion/familiar.

Teloric
2007-02-24, 01:17 PM
Spell of DM Bribery. Essentially this is similar to the legendary "Summon Pizza" spell, but it allows the DM to select the pizza, thus resulting in the remaining spell effect to take any form you desire.

Voila! Dead monster.

Toliudar
2007-02-24, 01:31 PM
I know how cheese works. I could gate in enough Solars to mob this thing to death, or send it to another plane, or take up 100 days to cast a spell it couldn't resist, or use Genesis to renew my spells within a single round, but that's not the point. The point is to kill it in fair combat. I'm looking for spells to do that.

Okay, so you've created this creature that seems specifically designed to be immune to all the standard attack spell forms, and then you tell people that you don't want to use the various non-standard attack forms that they're suggesting because they're cheese.

Maybe I need a clearer sense of what you mean by "fair combat".

Collin152
2007-02-24, 01:53 PM
You want a spell that can hurt it? Ice assasin, I think... i've only ever heard of it from Pun-Pun's instruction manual, but if it works on gods...

fallensavior
2007-02-24, 03:27 PM
How about time stop, limited wish x10 for -60 to next save, and wail of the banshee?

JimmyDPawn
2007-02-24, 03:33 PM
Enthropomancer + Sphere of anihilation?

Arbitrarity
2007-02-24, 03:46 PM
How do you get the sphere?

And SR makes it immune to WOTB.

fallensavior
2007-02-24, 04:19 PM
How about time stop, limited wish x10 for -60 to next save, and wail of the banshee?

My bad, I forgot the all important 380 +1 caster level ioun stones.

Green Bean
2007-02-24, 04:22 PM
Would a Mirror of Opposition work? I looked at the description, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why it wouldn't work. If it does, buy two, and use both at once just to be certain.

Collin152
2007-02-24, 08:24 PM
or, you could... Pee on this beast.

Corolinth
2007-06-11, 10:36 PM
Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.Pardon me if someone has already asked this, but...

How are you avoiding that damage yourself? Major Creation is a close range spell. A 30 petaton yield is going to have one hell of a blast radius, and a level 50 caster can stand, at most, 150 feet away.

EDIT for reference: Little Boy was 16 kilotons, exploded nearly 2000 feet in the air, and leveled an entire city.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-12, 11:03 AM
Quickened (as the rod) ethereal jaunt? Contingent Tele? All sorts of movement methods.

Telonius
2007-06-12, 12:02 PM
Earthquake could affect it, as mentioned before. Cast twenty of them, the beast will fail its save on average once (reflex 1 = autofail).

Some creative uses of Illusory Wall might work as well. A variation on the Tarrasque Pit Trap could result in a dead beast.

EDIT: One other spell: Reverse Gravity. No saving throw. It has the possibility of securing itself with a reflex save, but this might not be possible. It thwacks into the ceiling, then falls to the ground, taking damage both times. It would be pretty minor damage, but it would be damage. The only thing is if it can fly, the spell won't work.

Krrth
2007-06-12, 03:00 PM
Just quick off the top of my head...I do believe a nat 1 on a save fails, correct? Just gate in ONE solar, and just plunk the thing with greater arrows of slaying. It will get a one sometime....

Cybaster
2007-07-13, 06:58 PM
Can this monstrosity fly or hover?

If you answered "No", engage it in an open field, and lob a Grenade of Reverse Gravity (Wondrous Item) into its mouth. Watch it fly to the top of the stratosphere in 1 round (you might have to dispel the spell effect early, though) and fall down again. Watch it suffer massive falling damage. Then rinse, lather, repeat. :P Alternatively, ward the entire ground area around it with that spell and watch it rinse, lather, and repeat itself.

Reverse Gravity is an area spell with no SR and no applicable save at all in open ground. It is a 7th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell that, for Epic characters, can be easily Quickened.

Seriously, though, it sounds to me that you're basically looking for a Scripted Encounter with an Epic Boss Character and an Epic NPC Hero, but want to look for a legitimate way for the fight to proceed to appease the players. Unfortunately, with the current stats that Boss Character has, it's very difficult to do, especially with how flimsy Epic Rules are.

But you're the DM, and you don't necessarily have to follow legitimacy to the letter. What you can do, whether it's your NPC Hero or your PCs that'll be fighting it, is to create a specific Legendary Item or two designed solely to aid that fight alone (the Kael'thas Sunstrider Boss Fight (http://www.wowwiki.com/Kael%27thas_Sunstrider_%28tactics%29) comes to mind here). For example, the NPC Hero can be wielding a Longsword that has Force Enchantment, is +10, casts Greater Shout additionally every swing (Sonic immunity equipment on your NPC hero also helps), and can disable one of its abilities so the PCs can help out as well (such as subduing its Spell Reflection or Spell Resistance automatically every swing).

You don't even have to let your PCs keep it; It can be attuned to that one boss and vanish/shatter when it dies. It's your call.

Cruiser1
2007-07-13, 08:54 PM
The spell "Blast of Flame" from the Spell Compendium, with Energy Substitution: Sonic to turn it into sonic damage, and Sculpt Spell so it's a ball or cylinder instead of a cone, will hurt this creature. Blast of Flame is a 4th level Conjuration spell, that ignores spell resistance like the Orb spells. However it's an area of effect spell, so it won't be turned back against the caster like ordinary Rays and cones are against this creature. This is a simple and direct way to take out the creature as described, without having to delve into cheese solutions like drowning, or waiting until it rolls natural 1's on saves.

Armads
2007-07-13, 09:39 PM
You could also apply Searing Spell to any Fire spell that bypasses SR, and use Sculpt Spell.

Fire Seeds would work well with that plan. 4d8+200 damage.

Swordguy
2007-07-13, 10:02 PM
why...Why...WHY did you bring this obscenity back up? Wasn't it cheesy enough the FIRST time?!

Oeep Snaec
2008-01-02, 09:48 PM
How about multiple wish spells to give it any cancer imaginable. Maybe AIDS too. It would die eventually.:smallbiggrin:

Inyssius Tor
2008-01-02, 09:57 PM
..........
why...Why...WHY did you bring this obscenity back up? Wasn't it cheesy enough the FIRST time?!

Solo
2008-01-02, 10:20 PM
why...Why...WHY did you bring this obscenity back up? Wasn't it cheesy enough the FIRST time?!
Would this be a good time to mention that I've sigged it?

Shraik
2008-01-02, 11:14 PM
Use the force, it ain't magic

Starbuck_II
2008-01-03, 12:01 AM
If Psionics allowed: Crystal Shard.

Diversion
2008-01-03, 09:58 AM
Summon an earth elemental 1000 ft. on top of it. According to it's weight it deal 216 d6 damage for every 10 ft. it falls. That's 2160 d6. If it isn't enough, just summon it 2000 or 3000 ft. in the air.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-03, 10:02 AM
Holy thread necromancy, Batman! This thread is truly perennial.


Summon an earth elemental 1000 ft. on top of it. According to it's weight it deal 216 d6 damage for every 10 ft. it falls. That's 2160 d6. If it isn't enough, just summon it 2000 or 3000 ft. in the air.

Can't summon something onto a surface that doesn't support it.

Scathach
2008-01-03, 03:51 PM
One spell. Doesn't actually directly target the creature.



I wish whatever events or individuals created this being wound up not creating this being and did not create anything to replace it.



I'm sure someone could come up with better wording, but it works.

DeathEatsCurry
2008-01-04, 10:01 AM
-Summon Epic Big Ass Anvil?
-Instagib?
-Create Vacuum?
-Summon 20 megaton Nuke?
-Wish/Reality Revision?
-Scolding Burst (It hurst his feelings...)?
-Kill-o-zap?
-Overpowered beast-b-gone?
-Summon special edition DVD of Waterworld (includes deleted scenes, over 200 minutes of extra material)?
-Summon George Carlin?

Yami
2008-01-04, 11:53 AM
I thought this thread was long dead? It's been proven vulnerable and deafeatable, what more do you want?

Here, I shall give you an example;

We take a mage, say.... level 16. We give him a few metamagic enhancers (he really only needs one,) and one of the many metamagic feats out there that change damage from one type to another. I could go with something silly like Vile damage, or sonic substitution, but I'd rather go with the sub-par extra burning feat that allows you to deal half damage to fire immune creatures with your fire spells. Not nearly as nice as sonic substitution, but it gets the job done, and there's a certain style to it.

Then you cast your Incendiary Clouds, or other no SR area spells, overcoming energy immuntitys as you will.

Burley
2008-01-04, 12:03 PM
One hit kill:

Plane shift into our dimension, and have your character tear up the piece of paper you wrote out your God-Monster on.
Plus, you just made yourself a really cool wizard buddy. Everybody wins!

TheMeanDM
2008-01-04, 12:27 PM
So I have a problem, albiet a self-imposed one.

One day I decided to make a CR 45 monster. Now I'm trying to make a character that can kill it, and have run into a problem: I can't find any spells that can do it meaningful damage, if any damage at all.
Here's why:
-It is Immune to Polymorph, Mind-affecting, Fire, Poison, Disease, Energy Drain, Ability Damage, Sleep, Paralysis, Cold
-It reflects all spells that are Rays, Lines, Cones, or Magic-Missiles
-It reflects all spells that target it specifically (as Spell Turning, but permanent)
-It has Spell Resistance 385
-It has Lightning and Acid Resist 105
-It has the following saves: Fort 69, Ref 55, Will 36

Are there any spells that can directly damage/kill it? I've flipped through quite a few books to no avail. I realize it could easily be killed by a mob of angry summoned Solars or an angry horde of Allips, but that's not what I'm looking to do. Assume the caster trying to kill it has a base caster level of 50.

Can any spell hurt it?


Those are just stupid dumb stats.


But, Slime Wave will help (no SR, no target, and does some damage)

Ganurath
2008-01-04, 12:30 PM
It worked on Mr. T, and it will work here:

Party Wizard flies roughly 200 feet over the monster, more if the monster can fly or has a ranged weapon. Party Wizard uses telekinesis to hold level the slice of stone ten feet in radius over the monster's center. The Party Wizard then uses the slice as a base for a Wall of Stone Sculpted into a thirty foot pillar. I'll link to the post with the math, but you're looking at quadruple digits in d6s without a roll to hit or a saving throwing. Rock falls, everyone dies.

Edit: Links (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3659328&postcount=44) galore! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3667770&postcount=62)

DeathEatsCurry
2008-01-05, 02:11 PM
Just kick it in the friggin balls... Or nerf it... I dont even think the Deities from "Deities and Demigods" can hurt it..

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-05, 04:19 PM
Just kick it in the friggin balls... Or nerf it... I dont even think the Deities from "Deities and Demigods" can hurt it..

Not really - if any creature with the vivacious template goes head to head with it, chances are the baddy goes boom.

Bayar
2008-03-05, 07:43 AM
Maximised Quill balst ? (The Complete Divine version)

From a level 50 druid?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-05, 07:50 AM
What is with the necro?:smallannoyed:

Starbuck_II
2008-03-05, 09:21 AM
So I have a problem, albiet a self-imposed one.

One day I decided to make a CR 45 monster. Now I'm trying to make a character that can kill it, and have run into a problem: I can't find any spells that can do it meaningful damage, if any damage at all.
Here's why:
-It is Immune to Polymorph, Mind-affecting, Fire, Poison, Disease, Energy Drain, Ability Damage, Sleep, Paralysis, Cold
-It reflects all spells that are Rays, Lines, Cones, or Magic-Missiles
-It reflects all spells that target it specifically (as Spell Turning, but permanent)
-It has Spell Resistance 385
-It has Lightning and Acid Resist 105
-It has the following saves: Fort 69, Ref 55, Will 36

Are there any spells that can directly damage/kill it? I've flipped through quite a few books to no avail. I realize it could easily be killed by a mob of angry summoned Solars or an angry horde of Allips, but that's not what I'm looking to do. Assume the caster trying to kill it has a base caster level of 50.

Can any spell hurt it?


Hail of stones has no SR/No save: it does cost 5 gp to cast so pricey: deals 1d4/level (max 5d4). It hits the area (5 feet, I think?).
So just keep hitting it till dead.

Alternatively:
Summon Swarm. Auto hits, deals damage, causes distraction, wounding, etc. If Bat Swarm: from now on 1 hp/round, boo-ya.
So just wait till it does: go invisible before casting and stay invisible.

Talic
2008-03-05, 09:31 AM
No evasion?

1,000,000 from a rock. Level 50 hulking hurler build. This would include the following:

3 levels of hulking hurler.
20 levels of war hulk. (+40 to str)
17 levels of Wu Jen (Giant Size 9th level spell)
Be a Quadruped.
As much str boosting cheese as you can get.
Provided you're halfway decent, getting STR to 100+ isn't hard, by this level. Take the feat that doubles your carrying capacity, and a rock that hits for 1,000,000 damage on average, reflex save around DC80 for half, isn't out of the question.

Yeah, it'll pass the save, if it's lucky. Next question, does it have over 500,000 hp?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-05, 10:01 AM
http://www.hookahforum.com/uploads/1165808825/gallery_2063_3_17264.jpg

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-05, 10:16 AM
And to finally give the thread a kiss of Death, I found a spell that could kill it. Surprised nobody thought about this: Tenser's Transformation! Buff until you can buff no more, and proceed to own it.

Squash Monster
2008-03-05, 11:10 PM
You're 50th level and the best buff you can think of is Tenser's?

Yes, buf'n'go is the best strategy. Followed by summons.

But if you're dead-set on killing it using direct damage:
Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 5

You're looking for Arcane Thesis in an Orb Of Whatever, and all the usual ray enhancement spells (split ray, twin spell, empower, maximize, whatever).

Use the generic Orb of Pwn with the Archmage's Energy Substitution to make it Sonic.

Artificer is even better, since they can do this two-fisted monkey style, and at level 12 or so. But neh, Artificer is crazy.

EDIT:
My bad. I meant to say do all of this except Split-Ray, because you're doing it with any random AOE spell with no spell resistance. That's all, carry on.

brian c
2008-03-06, 12:23 AM
why...Why...WHY did you bring this obscenity back up? Wasn't it cheesy enough the FIRST time?!

Seriously, enough is enough, let this thread die

valadil
2008-03-06, 12:38 AM
This might have been mentioned, but it's late and there are 8 pages to read.

Beguiler 20 gets to bypass SR. Beguiler spells are mostly will saves, which is this guy's weakest. Starting at 18 cha plus 12 more by the time you're level 50 for a 30 charisma. Is it safe to assume you can get a +10 stat item at that point and a +5 tome? That's a 45 charisma, for a +24 bonus. With focus and greater focus enchantment, your level 0 spells will have a save DC of 36. So a dominate monster would have a DC of 45, which he makes on a 9. I assume that between levels 6 and 50 you can find more feats and shenanigans (maybe fate spinner?), or epic feats for charisma, levels of fatespinner, quickened fear to leave foe shaken if he makes his save, or even heighten into an epic slot, to raise the DC a little.

That leaves us with bypassing the spell reflection. Spells can only bounce once, so get some spell reflection on your own bad self. Then hit yourself with dominate monster to bounce it to him. Problem solved and you win a badass pet.

Adumbration
2008-03-06, 12:55 AM
This bugger doesn't even have Power Resistance?!?

Just hit it with a Psion. Augmented Maximized Sonic Energy Ball should do it. Just get the Reflex save DC high enough and it'll go down fast. Or use Temporal Acceleration to make several Delayed versions of the same. More failed saves, more damage.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-06, 01:08 AM
Why does this thread keep getting raised from the dead?

It was an idiotic thread to begin with and it hasn't improved with age.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-06, 01:25 AM
So I have a problem, albiet a self-imposed one.

One day I decided to make a CR 45 monster. Now I'm trying to make a character that can kill it, and have run into a problem: I can't find any spells that can do it meaningful damage, if any damage at all.
Here's why:
-It is Immune to Polymorph, Mind-affecting, Fire, Poison, Disease, Energy Drain, Ability Damage, Sleep, Paralysis, Cold
-It reflects all spells that are Rays, Lines, Cones, or Magic-Missiles
-It reflects all spells that target it specifically (as Spell Turning, but permanent)
-It has Spell Resistance 385
-It has Lightning and Acid Resist 105
-It has the following saves: Fort 69, Ref 55, Will 36

Are there any spells that can directly damage/kill it? I've flipped through quite a few books to no avail. I realize it could easily be killed by a mob of angry summoned Solars or an angry horde of Allips, but that's not what I'm looking to do. Assume the caster trying to kill it has a base caster level of 50.

Can any spell hurt it?

I skimmed the thread and may have missed a few points. Curious regarding this legendary cheese campaign monster. It's basically a TPK with a completely unknown monster that is immune or basically immune to almost all types of attacks and the PC is prohibited from using cheese in a duel.

How about a little more information? What is the PC ECL? What kind of Wealth by Level does the PC receive? General AC, HD, Attacks and Movement of the monster? What kind of knowledge checks does the PC need to make to adapt his combat strategy and learn some of this knowledge to tailor his tactics?

One of the best PCs to use would be to use an ECS Planar Shepherd via PRC abilities, Animal Companion and Summoning spells depending on the AC of the creature. Taking on a few templates would probably be a good ideal to pick up some spell like or similar (psionic or supernatural) abilities.

Planar Ally to call a Noble Djinni or Efretti dpending on how Wishes work in your game.

It also depends on how psionics work in your game.

Tome of Battle is Extraordinary and Supernatural attacks via manuevers and good for a few level dips at higher levels.

Hypercognition probably a good way to ensure making the critical knowledge check or checks to adapt tactics.

Wilder Anarchic Initiate using Sonic Energy Attacks and Astral Constructs to damage it depending on how magic and psionics works in your campaign. (Energy "Ball" (Sonic) plus other attacks as necessary) with Damp Power up.

Fullcaster using Calling and Summoning Spells since it is effectively immune to the majority of the spells in the game and they would be indirect damage attacks and some have useful indirect spell like abilities for the most part unless it also has Epic DR.

Even better with ECL 40+ is going multiple fullcaster spellcasting in several disciplines.

(Miracle) or Greater Miracle to create a very deep huge chasm underneath the creature so it falls to it's death (Unless it can fly) so the reflex save is unimportant.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-06, 08:18 AM
This bugger doesn't even have Power Resistance?!?

Just hit it with a Psion. Augmented Maximized Sonic Energy Ball should do it. Just get the Reflex save DC high enough and it'll go down fast. Or use Temporal Acceleration to make several Delayed versions of the same. More failed saves, more damage.

SR = PR unless you use houserules. That is the default way D&D is run. Non-Transparency aren't the default.

Adumbration
2008-03-06, 08:35 AM
SR = PR unless you use houserules. That is the default way D&D is run. Non-Transparency aren't the default.

Ah, right. My bad, I'm pretty new to psionics so I didn't know.

A pity, though. :smallamused:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-06, 09:37 AM
SR = PR unless you use houserules. That is the default way D&D is run. Non-Transparency aren't the default.

I disagree Psionics are the same (Magic) or they are different depending on the DM. As per his previous post he was treating them as being different. It opened up the creature to attacks by a few more classes.

mregecko
2008-03-06, 10:42 AM
I'm kinda surprised nobody whipped this one out yet... But why not try the locate city bomb?

Apply the following to the spell Locate City, from Races of Destiny (range: 10 miles/CL):

Snowcasting [Frostburn] -> Make it cold
Flash Frost [PHB2] -> 2 cold damage to everyone
Energy Admixture/Substitution [depending on who you ask]-> Make it electric
Born of the Three Thunders -> Allows a reflex save, damage becomes sonic
Explosive Spell -> Reflex save or forced to the edge of the radius, for 1d6/10 feet.

Now of course, you would want to cast all of these inside of a maximized, empowered time stop and throw on a Delay metamagic. That way you could get an average of 5 or 6, actually MORE if you used those Quicken rods your estimated character wealth allows (say 10 or 12).

When you come out, if he rolls a one on any of his saves, he's toast... If he doesn't, then you go back into time stop and try again.

And let's see... Energy Admixture is +4, Explosive spell is +2, Flash Frost is +1. That's a net spell modifier of +7, throw in Metamagic School Focus (Divination) and either Residual Magic or some Incantrix cheese... You can easily cast this spell 20 times. Throw in Delay spell for +3 modifier, that's still only a +6 modifier with Metamagic School Focus. Residual Magic the Energy Admixture one round, then the Delay spell the next round, and you're set.

As far as damage goes... Let's say this is a 45th level caster.

45*10 miles = 450 miles
450miles = 2,376,000 feet
2,376,000 feet/10 = 237,600 10' blocks
=> 237,600d6

With an average of 3.5/d6, that's 831,600 damage on average. :-)

Death by exhaustion!
-- Gecko

imp_fireball
2009-01-25, 01:38 AM
Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.

This is where the DM should rule that you dealt significant enough damage to the environment that you should harm yourself as well. Perhaps blow up the planet at least. Because anti-matter is the one weapon proven capable of sundering earth north to south.

Also consider area/saturation physics which can't directly be ruled. Half damage at AoE and deal more damage at the 'core' of the explosion.

I could take this thread to dicefreaks, so even it this is a thread necro I could continue the discussion over there. :)

BobVosh
2009-01-25, 03:01 AM
Aw, you couldn't wait 19 more days? It would have been this thread's 2nd Bday. This is why we can't have nice things.

Anyway, let this thread die. It is old, and needs to be cut off of life support.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-25, 07:57 AM
Piece of cake:

Chaos Arrows tactic:

2x quickened Twin Telekinesis (2x 9th level slots with auto-quicken). Arrows with energy weapon spell (or similar) maximised, admixtured, mastered to all energy types except fire (4x 9th level slots).

That's 60 arrows doing 1d4 piercing + 48 energ damage each. Assuming you hit its AC (which you easily do at that level) you deal 3000 points of damage.

quick_comment
2009-01-25, 09:55 AM
High level wizard with autoquicken and several multispells.

Quickened Limited Wish - pass next SR check
or
Archmage spell like ability: Death by Thorns
Supernatural Transformation: Death by Thorns

Quickened Death by Thorns (BoVD) - Die or be stunned
Quickened Gate - Titan, or something similarly huge. "You there, CDG that monster"


Other method: Justicar, antimagic shackles, absurd grapple check, CDG.

imp_fireball
2009-01-27, 03:37 AM
Someone on dicefreaks said that the CR of this creature should be around 350 or 380 if the SR is 400.

So have an equivalent level caster.

If spells like improved/epic haste existed (maybe you could create one with that much XP available for the caster) then you could cast a lot more then three spells per round, wiggle past the SR with your phenomenal prime attribute and level and burninate. And that's only the beginning of it.

Zincorium
2009-01-27, 04:32 AM
01-12-2007

That is all.

Roland St. Jude
2009-04-10, 03:38 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't commit thread necromancy.

monty
2009-04-10, 04:04 PM
Is there any particular reason why this thread was stickied?

Swordguy
2009-04-10, 04:11 PM
Because it's awesome. And has a nuclear explosion in it. And because Roland probably hit the wrong button.

Berserk Monk
2009-04-10, 04:17 PM
Gate to the elemental plane of fire under it?

I was thinking teleport (is there a save and/or spell resistance to that?) it into a volcano. Also, just because you can't directly harm it with magic, you can also buff up the tanks with spells and summon stuff to kick its ass with spells.

Don't forget about Wish/Miracle too.:smallbiggrin:

monty
2009-04-10, 04:19 PM
I was thinking teleport (is there a save and/or spell resistance to that?) it into a volcano.

Teleport is willing only. Also, isn't it immune to fire?

Berserk Monk
2009-04-10, 04:24 PM
Teleport is willing only. Also, isn't it immune to fire?

Then I teleport it into your mom.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-04-10, 05:32 PM
Effigy Cheese: Get Craft Construct at 9th level. Buff up something with 9HD with as many templates as possible, then make it an effigy. It still has the same cost. It will lose a lot of its special abilities, but to quote:


You lose all spell-like abilities, Supernatural abilities, and extrodinary abilities based on Constitution.

RAW, the based on Con bit applies to all of it because of the stupidity of the english language.

I made up somemonster for this a while back and called it "The Win DND Button" :smallbiggrin: