redeemed Blackguard questions

[CaDzilla]

If a fallen paladin blackguard atones and gets back their abilities
-does their divine grace stack with their dark blessing?
-Do they get to keep the added benefits of the fallen paladin levels?
-If they decide to take a level in warpriest, having both rebuking and turning, do they get both of the bonus domains?

[Kazudo]

Aside from one small issue I could see this working. The main problem is thus:



Alignment: Lawful Good




Alignment: Any Evil




Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins)


Ok. The first two are basically if you're playing by "Once you stop qualifying you lose the class" rules, which were set forth in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. If your table treats them as global rules, then I'm sorry, no. They don't.

The third one is to say that it does specifically say "ex-paladins" due to the aforementioned conflict of alignment, so one RAW reading could say that once you're no longer an ex-paladin, even if you keep the Blackguard's other class features by interpreting that the class requirements clause set forth in Complete Warrior or Arcane don't extend to other books, you don't get the segment in the Fallen Paladins section of the Blackguard description.

EDIT: NOW THEN. To address your concerns, if you are SOMEHOW able to navigate and get around the massive minefield that the concept lays out intact, I can see no reason that you wouldn't add your CHA bonus to your saves twice, get detect evil and detect good, have both an evil and good aura (assuming there isn't RAW that those don't somehow stack, maybe you show up grey as opposed to red or blue respectively), and get a Smite Evil AND Smite Good.

You'd have to have a VERY lenient deity not to call gaining such a benefit from evil against your code of conduct, however.

Though if the above works, Paladin of Tyranny would breeze its way right into double class features with Blackguard.

[Doc_Maynot]

I'm now curious about a Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter PrCing into Blackguard...

[Kazudo]

I'm now curious about a Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter PrCing into Blackguard...

If you take the parentheses as being an allowance to the statement instead of a clarification, you'd get all of the effects of being a Paladin of Tyrrany and a blackguard without losing any abilities. Basically, it's what the OP is asking about but with MUCH less rules interference.

Assuming earliest possible entry, which would be 7th level, so 6 levels of Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter.

You'd still have Aura of Evil per PoT or Blackguard whichever is stronger
Four Smite Goods per day
Twice as much Lay on Hands
1d6 Sneak Attack.

Not a bad batch for full BAB.

EDIT: Hmm. With 1d6 Sneak attack, you actually qualify for some pretty dumb shenanigans. Assuming that you only ate five levels of Paladin, taking your first level in something else like Sneak Attack Fighter, you'd have 2d6 SA at 7th level in addition to a lot of neat stuff. At second level, you'd get twice your CHA to your saves, which is nearly all the good things about Blackguard right there. It's kinda MAD though. STR, CON and CHA. Hmm...So become undead for the d12 HD and lose CON, so that makes you pretty much straight STR/CHA. That's not terrible. I mean, I doubt you'd win any awards, but still, it's not a bad build.

EDIT2: Not to mention that this is at ECL 8 (potentially higher depending on how you became undead), so from here on out you can switch to something that will advance SA while doing something else, or potentially start into initiator classes

[T.G. Oskar]

The "ex-Paladin" section for Blackguard is for those former Paladins who were seduced, and thus use a fraction of their earlier power in service to Evil. No rulebook ever mentioned a former Paladin-turned-Blackguard ever changing back; the only notice was Andras, one of the vestiges from Tome of Magic, and he decided to go neutral after being the most virtuous and the most vile.

Thing is, having no precedent, and going by the rules of Complete Warrior, a Blackguard that turns Good and reclaims its Paladin powers loses all Blackguard powers in exchange, save for BAB and saves, plus the HD you had. Thus, it's like you suddenly took levels in Warrior, except with better HD. You don't even regain access to Sneak Attack, which unlike the other powers is an (Ex) ability (or Poison Use, that is).

If you're ignoring that rule and you retain your Blackguard abilities...well, quite frankly, that's pretty much homebrew.

As for Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter going Blackguard...well, it says "ex-Paladins", but that's because of the alignment change. It's acceptable to have the sources stack, though Smite Good explicitly doesn't have its damage stack (note that the Blackguard gains extra uses of Smite Good but not an increase to its damage, so that means you get about 9 uses of Smite Good, but all of them deal 10 points of damage). Also, since you gain Charisma to saves from the same class feature (Dark Blessing), you wouldn't gain Charisma to saves twice (same reason why you don't get Wisdom to AC if you MC between Swordsage and, say, Shadow Sun Ninja). You'd gain the fiendish servant and the undead servant, the Rebuke Undead power would stack (it's functionally the same) but at a much lower level (-3 from Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter, -2 from Blackguard), a redundant Aura of Despair ability (that you can't replace, on the other hand, Paladin of Slaughter has a different aura, which makes that kind of entry better), more Sneak Attack, access to Poison Use and the Fiendish Summoning ability. You'd also get two sources of spells, one at CL 5th and limited to 2nd level spells (the Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter spellcasting) and the other being at CL 10th and up to 4th level spells (the Blackguard spellcasting). Oh, and you'd also gain Lay on Hands, even if you were never a Paladin, in conjunction with the Deadly Touch class feature (which would be limited to 10th level). AAAND Cause Disease 2/week. Functionally, a Paladin of Slaughter/Blackguard would be more powerful than even an ex-Paladin/Blackguard, because virtually very little overlaps.

This also works with Paladin of Freedom/Holy Liberator: your Smite Evil deals full damage (the two sources stack!), your CL for spells of Holy Liberator are equal to your levels in Paladin of Freedom and Holy Liberator, you get Lay on Hands and Remove Fatigue, the Holy Liberator's Aura of Resolve overlaps with the one from Paladin of Freedom and improves it, you get the ability to Remove Disease and Break Enchantment weekly, you retain Turn Undead and Divine Health from the Paladin of Freedom, and you get both a Special Mount (which you can replace) and a Celestial Companion (which doesn't have to be a mount; it can be a wolf, for example). And, since the Paladin of Freedom has abilities that overlap with the base Paladin, it also has access to its ACFs (such as Harmonious Knight, for example, or From Smite to Song).

Really, the only combination that's hosed is the vanilla Paladin. Then again, Paladin 10/Fist of Raziel is so sexy...

[Anlashok]

The first two are basically if you're playing by "Once you stop qualifying you lose the class" rules, which were set forth in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane.
Except Blackguard isn't in Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane.

[T.G. Oskar]

Except Blackguard isn't in Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane.

Go with how rules are solved. Prestige Classes first appeared in the Dungeon Master's Guide, so for anything related to Prestige Classes, the Dungeon Master's Guide has precedence over anything else. So, what does the Prestige Classes section of the DMG says?


Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes [found in the Player's Handbook], characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement [(see page 58 of the Player's Handbook)] apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

[For example, the requirements to become an assassin are any evil alignment, 8 ranks in Move Silently, 8 ranks in Hide, 4 ranks in Disguise, and the candidate must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins. Any rogue can meet the skill requirements at 5th level (see Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, page 33 of the Player's Handbook, for class skill max ranks). When such a rogue gains enough experience points to reach 6th level, she can take her first level of assassin.

Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor-made yourself.]

(The content between [] is content from the DMG; else, it's identical to what's written in the SRD)

As you can see, there is no fixed rule that mentions that prestige class features are denied in the explicit case a character does not meet the prerequisites. It's left ambiguous, but it DOES mention that, if you don't meet the requirements for the prestige class before the first step of Character Creation, you can't enter the class. That's as close as it defines it.

In Complete Warrior, the rule is a bit more specific:

It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.

As you can see, this is a rule that's not specific to Complete Warrior prestige classes; it is a rule that applies to the concept of "prestige class" in general. As usual, if any rule conflicts with the Core Rulebook (or the Rules Compendium), the Core Rulebook always wins the conflict, except if the Rules Compendium changed the rule. The Rules Compendium didn't change the rule, and there's no such conflict in the DMG, therefore the rule in both Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane is the closest thing to the specific rule, and therefore applies. This ALSO happens to agree with the general situation that happens when a character of a specific class is no longer capable of meeting the requirements for the class: the Barbarian loses the ability to rage, the Cleric loses Turn Undead and spellcasting, the Druid loses all of its class features, the Paladin loses all of its class features. The ONLY exception to the rule is the Monk, as it allows you to keep your class features but bars any further advancement.

Now, since the rules about Prestige Classes refer to the rules about classes, then order of precedence goes to the Player's Handbook. There is a good reason to justify this: Prestige Classes are a different form of multiclassing, a concept introduced in the Player's Handbook. Prestige Classes behave a lot like base classes, except that they have a few unique rules which the Dungeon Master's Guide defines. By looking at the classes in the Player's Handbook, and specifically the Paladin class, you can see that the ruling of Complete Warrior not only has NO conflict with the rules as presented in the Player's Handbook, but it also HAPPENS to agree with the rule as implicitly given. Therefore, since the rule regarding prestige classes from Complete Warrior is in agreement with both the PHB and the DMG, the rule applies. It also applies in Complete Arcane, so it's meant to be a rule adjudicating that specific situation where a character no longer qualifies for a prestige class, and considering the rule as stated doesn't specify that it applies ONLY to those classes, there's very little doubt as to what it's meant to be. The only way the rule wouldn't apply is if another sourcebook claims precedence, if the rule was updated, or if there's an exception to the rule. Being a DMG class, the Blackguard has precedence (but as proven, the PHB and the DMG agree with the rule of CW), the rule wasn't updated and made different, and there's no exception to a rule that didn't exist until that moment. By conclusion, the only viable solution is to accept the ruling of Complete Warrior and apply it to the Blackguard even if it's not one of the PrCs of the sourcebook, as it's the strictest adjudication of the rule.

Now, you could apply Rule 0 on your table, but by checking up how rules adjudicate, chances are you won't be capable of regaining Paladin powers while still keeping Blackguard powers. It's either one or the other, and the fluff of the Blackguard strongly suggests that they gain a few powers from their levels in Paladin, but eventually they trade those levels, which would imply there's no turning back. Any other adjudication is either Rule 0 or homebrew.

[Kazudo]

Yeah, the only issue I've ever seen that would indicate that that rule isn't global is:

A. The lack of that rule in any other PrC gaining splatbooks than Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior

and

B. The rule that says that you start with the base source.

Which leads one easily to believe that the excerpts from Complete Arcane/Warrior only pertain to Complete Arcane/Warrior respectively. A ruling either way could be construed as a houserule.

But then, if this wasn't a problem, it wouldn't exactly be D&D 3.5, would it.

[Frosty]

If I were to DM, I'd say that a redeemed Blackguard will lose all Blackguard levels and either gain Paladin levels or Fighter levels, depending on how the roleplay goes.

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, the only issue I've ever seen that would indicate that that rule isn't global is:

A. The lack of that rule in any other PrC gaining splatbooks than Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior

and

B. The rule that says that you start with the base source.

Which leads one easily to believe that the excerpts from Complete Arcane/Warrior only pertain to Complete Arcane/Warrior respectively. A ruling either way could be construed as a houserule.

But then, if this wasn't a problem, it wouldn't exactly be D&D 3.5, would it.

And, you know, the fact that interpreting it as extending beyond CA/CW creates Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple. In general if you have two valid readings of the rules, you should probably take the one that causes the fewest dysfunctions.

Were I DMing, I'd say absolutely you'd keep blackguard abilities. Aside from both blackguard and paladin needing a boost, I like the idea of stealing power from evil to fight evil; there's precedent with malconvoker, and unlike that you're not actually doing something evil (even as slightly as casting [Evil] spells) by using most of your powers. You couldn't use Fiendish Summoning, call an undead or fiendish companion, or Smite Good without falling, though.

[Kazudo]

And, you know, the fact that interpreting it as extending beyond CA/CW creates Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple. In general if you have two valid readings of the rules, you should probably take the one that causes the fewest dysfunctions.

Were I DMing, I'd say absolutely you'd keep blackguard abilities. Aside from both blackguard and paladin needing a boost, I like the idea of stealing power from evil to fight evil; there's precedent with malconvoker, and unlike that you're not actually doing something evil (even as slightly as casting [Evil] spells) by using most of your powers. You couldn't use Fiendish Summoning, call an undead or fiendish companion, or Smite Good without falling, though.

I usually agree. In most circumstances, including CWar and CArc, I use a house rule that says that rather than losing any class features, you can't gain any more levels in that PrC unless you still qualify for it. The qualification check happens at level rather than constantly, and you don't lose what you already had.

But yeah, I'd agree with that since Blackguard has no "ex-blackguards" section and therefore nothing happens if you fail to qualify for the class anymore. In fact, again, if the section in parenthesis is an example (ex-paladins being, at the time, the only way paladins could BE Blackguards) rather than a clarification (ex-paladins are the ONLY way paladins can be Blackguards), then Paladins of Tyranny or Slaughter would gain the Fallen Paladins segment too. I actually really like the flavor behind that. "I was already hellbent on ruling/destroying the world with an iron fist, and now I've evolved into something wholly evil."

[RedMage125]

It boils down to 2 things, here:

1) What is the RAW answer?

2) What is fair to a player who does this?

The answer to 1) is, unfortunately, that he/she loses ALL class abilities of the Blackguard class. This includes detect Good, Sneak Attack, Smite Good, Fiendish Servant, etc. He/she only retains the hit dice, base save, skill points and BAB of the class.

The answer to 2) would probably to allow the player to trade the blackguard levels back in for paladin levels, because blackguards can do the inverse.

But that would be a houserule.

Because the rule with no longer meeting prerequisites applies to more than just Prestige Classes. If you get your STR score drained by a shadow to below 13, you may no longer use the Power Attack feat, or Cleave, or any other feats in that tree that specify "STR 13" as a prerequisite.

[Kazudo]

It boils down to 2 things, here:

1) What is the RAW answer?

2) What is fair to a player who does this?

The answer to 1) is, unfortunately, that he/she loses ALL class abilities of the Blackguard class. This includes detect Good, Sneak Attack, Smite Good, Fiendish Servant, etc. He/she only retains the hit dice, base save, skill points and BAB of the class.

The answer to 2) would probably to allow the player to trade the blackguard levels back in for paladin levels, because blackguards can do the inverse.

But that would be a houserule.

Because the rule with no longer meeting prerequisites applies to more than just Prestige Classes. If you get your STR score drained by a shadow to below 13, you may no longer use the Power Attack feat, or Cleave, or any other feats in that tree that specify "STR 13" as a prerequisite.

There isn't an open-and-shut answer to whether you need to qualify for a PrC after conception or not for the aforementioned reasons. Either way is a houserule since the rules are ambiguous.

So there is a countering argument that you wouldn't lose anything to go right alongside the RAW (from two books neither of which are core nor the book that Blackguard is from, which IS core and precedes splat). The unfortunate truth is that any character who flops back and forth from alignment in such polar ways would likely need a talking to.

[Doc_Maynot]

The unfortunate truth is that any character who flops back and forth from alignment in such polar ways would likely need a talking to.

Isn't there a helmet that does that? Maybe that is why that situation happened?

[Kazudo]

Isn't there a helmet that does that? Maybe that is why that situation happened?

That would involve qualifying for a PrC by magical item which is much more widely frowned upon than the continual qualification issue.

If it was something out of the player's control then there'd be leniency galore, but if the player themselves keeps flip flopping their character's alignment, especially with a character who's built on the strength of their alignment like the four Paladin and Blackguard classes are, then someone needs to have a sit down and a conversation with that person, and without genuine reason then the person, despite being lawful good again, may not regain their paladin abilities due to being a person


who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct

and being shunned by their deity in the first place.

Now, there's also this


She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

But it doesn't say that the atonement spell is the only way to regain abilities for the class, and doesn't guarantee anywhere that it must work.

TL;DR: There are other reasons why a Paladin wouldn't get their abilities back other than alignment.

[Lord Haart]

The ONLY exception to the rule is the Monk, as it allows you to keep your class features but bars any further advancement.
Bard says hi.

Also, losing rage but keeping DR, pounce and stuff is not equivalent to losing all class abilities, so it's more like there's no general rule after all.

[lunar2]

there is no general rule. in fact, there is a class that goes a step further. warlock must be evil or chaotic, but have no ex warlock clause. they don't lose class features, nor are they explicitly denied the ability to continue to advance. warlocks only need to be evil or chaotic at first level, in order to take warlock 1.

[RedMage125]

There isn't an open-and-shut answer to whether you need to qualify for a PrC after conception or not for the aforementioned reasons. Either way is a houserule since the rules are ambiguous.

So there is a countering argument that you wouldn't lose anything to go right alongside the RAW (from two books neither of which are core nor the book that Blackguard is from, which IS core and precedes splat). The unfortunate truth is that any character who flops back and forth from alignment in such polar ways would likely need a talking to.

Your logic is backwards. Because one book precedes the other does NOT mean the first book should be followed. The most recently published material is the "correct" version.

Complete Books have published rules that overwrite the Core books. You want an example? Swift Actions, especially as the pertain to Quickened Spells, which the PHB says are Free Actions. This was an update published in a splatbook.

And the thing about prerequisites needing to me bet in order to use them? With feats, it is ver batim in the PHB, page 87. Even uses the example of Power Attack that I mentioned.

I really don't see how any coherent and objective reading of the rules would lead one to believe that what was worded in the CW/CA only applies to the material in those books.

[Jeff the Green]

Your logic is backwards. Because one book precedes the other does NOT mean the first book should be followed. The most recently published material is the "correct" version.

Not true. The DMG is the primary source for how PrCs in general work and doesn't say that you lose PrC abilities if you fail to qualify, and in fact includes a class that would break if you did. Another source can specify how the PrCs in that source work (because it's the primary source for those PrCs), but not in another one.


Complete Books have published rules that overwrite the Core books. You want an example? Swift Actions, especially as the pertain to Quickened Spells, which the PHB says are Free Actions. This was an update published in a splatbook.

Also in the Rules Compendium, which trumps the primary source rule. Until Rules Compendium, it may still have been a free action, but there's an argument to be made that since Miniatures Handbook was the primary source on swift actions, anything it has to say about what is or isn't a swift action goes.

[RedMage125]

Complete Arcane explicitly said that it trumped PHB on Quicken Spell, though.

And one of the splat books also said near the beginning of it that newer published material is ALWAYS the more "correct" version.

If only I could remember what book it was in...

[lunar2]

but the errata specifies the primary source rules, and establishes, the PHB, the DMG, and the MM as primary source within their spheres. whenever a source book comes out that contradicts the core 3, it is a case of specific trumps general, not a case of a new rule overwriting an old one. the rule in complete warrior is specific to complete warrior.

although there are some cool concepts that take advantage of the rule, like any incredible hulk build using warhulk.

[Bakeru]

And one of the splat books also said near the beginning of it that newer published material is ALWAYS the more "correct" version.This directly conflicts with the "Errata Rule: Primary Sources" all published errata starts with: When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. A monster’s statistics block supersedes the descriptive text.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.Nothing about "Last published version is correct", only "Primary Source Wins, unless Errata".

There is no Errata for the rules on qualifying for Prestige Classes laid out in the Dungeon Master's Guide, hence, they still apply. If a splatbook says otherwise - Errata trumps.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, PrC rules "lose prerequsites = lose CFs" were this way in the 3.0
Since the Complete Warrior was one of the first splats for 3.5, authors probably were honestly unaware about core rules change
And stuff in Complete Arcane generally considered "lazy copypasta error" from Complete Warrior


Also, since you gain Charisma to saves from the same class feature (Dark Blessing), you wouldn't gain Charisma to saves twice (same reason why you don't get Wisdom to AC if you MC between Swordsage and, say, Shadow Sun Ninja). But they get Cha-to-save from different CFs! PoS/PoT - from Divine grace, and Blackguard - from Dark Blessing


there is no general rule. in fact, there is a class that goes a step further. warlock must be evil or chaotic, but have no ex warlock clause. they don't lose class features, nor are they explicitly denied the ability to continue to advance. warlocks only need to be evil or chaotic at first level, in order to take warlock 1. Chaotic or evil at 1st level? :smallconfused:
Rebellious teenagers!.. :smallsigh:
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

This directly conflicts with the "Errata Rule: Primary Sources" all published errata starts with: When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. A monster’s statistics block supersedes the descriptive text.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.Nothing about "Last published version is correct", only "Primary Source Wins, unless Errata".

Personally I think "text trumps table" sometimes produces very unintuitive results.