3.5 sorcerer summoner

[Baroknik]

Hey all, have a character concept I could use some help flushing out. My group are pretty poor optimizers generally so I'm not looking to break anything here. Just curious what all more I should be looking for.

Now, the concept occurred to me whenever I realized that sorcerers can learn basically any spell (not just wiz/sorc nes). What I want to build is a sorcerer who focuses on summoning monsters. I lose the awesome Conj ACFs, but gain a much larger summoning list: summon monster, summon undead, and summon nature's ally lines. Are there any other Summon lines? What feats should I consider for across the board summoning boosts?

I'd like to play the character as something of a collector that is building up his menagerie of summoned creatures.

Chances are the campaign will start at level 1, so anything lower level is appreciated!

[holywhippet]

Are you talking about using the Wyrm Wizards PrC from Dragon magic? That isn't really an optimal route since it loses 3 levels of casting advancement and the sorcerer already has a problem with being one spell level behind the wizard.

If you really want to be a summoner though, try reading through this handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11186

[Baroknik]

I've read through it, but it doesn't do much to address sorcerer as the chassis. No when wizard, just sorcerer as they have the unique spell learning ability to learn any spell written (out groups reading of it).
Was thinking of a 1-level mindbender dip for telepathy (so I can talk to elemental a I summon). At that point I may as well pick up mindsight too.

[holywhippet]

Well, if you DM says it is so then by rule 0 it is so. By RAW though that isn't an option since each class has a spell list specifically stating what it can learn.


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

I think this is supposed to refer to home brew spells for the most part. If I was a DM allowing someone to poach spells from other classes I'd emphasise the "study" part of that statement and require the player to expend time and resources in game to work out how to make their own version of those spells.

[Vaz]

The PHB explicitly makes that sentence clear by an example.


For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level.

That leaves no wiggle room for learning Cleric spells, (say) by the rules as written - however, Sorcerers "suck" compared to Wizards - no class features, slowed spell progression, terrible metamagic application, and limited spells known.

[holywhippet]

If you want to learn spells from any class you are probably better of trying to be an archivist anyway. By RAW they can learn any divine spell from a scroll and with a bit of rule abuse can arguably learn any arcane spell as well.

[Darkweave31]

I'd really just go with the wizard for this since bending a slightly ambiguous clause to get druid spells is a little silly to me. Besides, last I checked most of the summons on the summon nature's ally list also appear on summon monster in some form. Also that standard action summon ACF is really amazing for a summoner, just makes life easier.

Have you ever looked into the summoner from pathfinder? That's another great class that seems to fulfill the concept you want quite well if the wizard is a bit too much. I prefer the master summoner archetype.

[Baroknik]

If really like to stay with the sorcerer chassis if possible. The rapid summoning ACF has the drawback that at level 1 your summons only have a single standard action before going "poof." Though not too huge of a drawback I like the sorcerer option to open up a customized summoning spell list. Summon Monster is super useful, but I'd also have Greenbond Summons if wanted for a given situation as well.
As far as Summoner goes, we're not using PF so that option is out.

If someone has a non-prepared chassis that would work better than sorcerer I'm open minded about that as well (spell books get lost a lot in our group and eidetic is out since it's Dragon).

[Darkweave31]

If you say so. I'm going to assume that you talked to your DM and they are ok with you taking spells from other lists (Because to repeat, that clause is not actually meant to allow you to do so).

A few other ideas include summon desert ally and conjure ice beast (sandstorm and frostburn, respectively)

top it off with magic circle against x and planar binding spells, possibly planar ally.

There are also a few spells in spell compendium which I believe call dragons to aid you.

Try to get rapid spell metamagic feat to use with your summon spells when being a sitting duck for an entire round to cast a summoning spell isn't tactically appealing

[Baroknik]

Actually I may end up going conjuror and risking a spell book if this combo works:
Rapid Summoning -- Summon Monster as a Standard Action
Master Specialist 10 -- Standard Action Conjurations can be cast as swift actions

The combo wouldn't come online until 13th level, but it may be a fun choice then. I can pick up Spell Mastery (and maybe Signature Spell at a few levels) to deal with losing spell books.

[Vaz]

You don't even need to do that. In Dragon Mag there's Eidetic Spellcaster ACF, and there's Uncanny Forethought, which allows you as a Full round action, and at -2 CL, cast any spell you know. Provided you take the time to write it in your Spellbook when you get home, you're a Wizard harry that casts like a Sorcerer. It has the benefit of reducing the casting time of any spell longer than a full round.

[Darkweave31]

You don't even need to do that. In Dragon Mag there's Eidetic Spellcaster ACF, and there's Uncanny Forethought, which allows you as a Full round action, and at -2 CL, cast any spell you know. Provided you take the time to write it in your Spellbook when you get home, you're a Wizard harry that casts like a Sorcerer. It has the benefit of reducing the casting time of any spell longer than a full round.

Eidetic is out, OP already mentioned it.

Also the master conjurer combination does in fact work quite well. It'll let you have quickened summons if you have rapid summoning.

[dextercorvia]

The rapid summoning ACF has the drawback that at level 1 your summons only have a single standard action before going "poof."

You offset this with the Spellgifted (Conjuration) trait, and you can even negate the associated penalty with Practiced Spellcaster. There is also the Spell Thematics feat. You can summon as a standard action and have them stick around for several rounds.

[KorbeltheReader]

Actually I may end up going conjuror and risking a spell book if this combo works:
Rapid Summoning -- Summon Monster as a Standard Action
Master Specialist 10 -- Standard Action Conjurations can be cast as swift actions

The combo wouldn't come online until 13th level, but it may be a fun choice then. I can pick up Spell Mastery (and maybe Signature Spell at a few levels) to deal with losing spell books.

14 technically, unless you know a trick I don't. You have to have 5 ranks of several skills, and when you level you have to choose your class before you advance your skills. Thus you have to raise your skills to 5 at level 3, AND THEN take your first level of Master Specialist at 4.

Also note that the Master Specialist capstone can only be used 3 times per day. Still great, but I'm just sayin'. Precision is important in this game.

[dextercorvia]

14 technically, unless you know a trick I don't. You have to have 5 ranks of several skills, and when you level you have to choose your class before you advance your skills. Thus you have to raise your skills to 5 at level 3, AND THEN take your first level of Master Specialist at 4.

Also note that the Master Specialist capstone can only be used 3 times per day. Still great, but I'm just sayin'. Precision is important in this game.

You get 5 ranks in class skills at level 2.

[Vaz]

You need to cast 2nd level spells. Short of Practised Spellcaster (as waste of a feat outside of TO), it's ECL4 entry. How does Spellgifyed help? Or spell thematics?

[dextercorvia]

You need to cast 2nd level spells. Short of Practised Spellcaster (as waste of a feat outside of TO), it's ECL4 entry. How does Spellgifyed help? Or spell thematics?

I was responding specifically to the part where he said you had to take your 5th rank at level 3. Yes, outside of early entry you get into Master Specialist at level 4 -- then finish it at 13.

Spellgifted and Spell Thematics increase the CL of your chosen spells. So, when you take the Wizard Rapid Summon ACF, you cast as a standard action, and keep the critter around for a while, even at level 1.