Houseruling Sneak Attack: Hit their weak points for massive damage

[Spore]

Hi,

before I want to introduce my group to the idea, I want your opinions guys. Since the circumstance in PF have both improved all classes but left the rogue behind (in combat at least), I wanted to make a suggestion (other than the "we give the combat classes 4+Int skills instead of 2+Int because they suck out of combat).

Make sneak attacks ignore DR. Yes, even DR/-. Why? Rogues have traditionally been known for exploiting weak spots of enemies. But this has resulted in some instances, where Str 10 rogue sneak attack the weak spot of the giant crab of doom, roll their damage and still only do enough damage for the DM to propose that the rogue scratched the shell slightly. Rogues are dexterous heroes, and the fact that brawny strength rogues are far better at this job is only detriment to fully ignoring the "agile hero" trope.

An agile hero does not cleave through the dragons scales with pure strength on the Achilles heel. They jump up to the dragon's neck and nearly slice their head off. I feel like the rogue is kind of underwhelming in combat. I know the class is okay-ish in terms of skills, but still, PF and D&D in general is a combat and dungeon crawl simulator.

What's your opinion on this matter?

[atomicwaffle]

AC is more than armor, it's overall awareness. It's assumed that characters in combat are slicing, ducking, weaving, riposting and aware of the battle going on. Sneak attack occurs when the target is either flanked, fighting two enemies at once, distracted, vulnerable and able to 'dodge less attacks' or hasn't had a chance to do anything (flat-footed) Since he can't be fully aware of what the rogue is doing, they have the opportunity to be more effective in combat (IE: do more damage).

[grarrrg]

Make sneak attacks ignore DR. Yes, even DR/-.
...
What's your opinion on this matter?

I like it.
Probably make it a Rogue Talent or something. Maybe a Rogue-ONLY Talent (none of this 'Ninja' stuff).
Might need to make it an Advanced Talent as well, mainly to discourage 'dipping'.

So level requirement 10, you may ignore a number of points of Damage Reduction equal to your Rogue level. Your levels only count for half against DR/-.

That'll let you cut through up to 20 points of DR.


Used this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-penetrating-strike-combat---final) as a rough guideline.
Funny thing I just noticed, the requirements of Penetrating Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/penetrating-strike-combat---final) have "Bab +1" and "Fighter 12". wut

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't care for it. Rogue would be better off getting attack bonuses (flatfooted AC is meaningless to most monsters) and ways to get SA much, MUCH more easily/often. Especially at range. Letting rogue (and monk and ninja...) tumble with ease like in 3.5 so they can safely get into flanking would also be welcome. Oh, and how about just letting rogues sneak attack in non-total concealment, rather than making a feat tax? It remains pathetic that a 1st level spell with no save or SR (Obscuring Mist) thwarts a rogue. While SA damage isn't much better than a 2H fighter's output, I don't think the damage is the main problem, or even the 3rd biggest problem.


Probably make it a Rogue Talent or something. Maybe a Rogue-ONLY Talent (none of this 'Ninja' stuff).

For cripes' sakes... Ninja is barely better than Rogue is, and is still tier 5. People always act like it's some godly improvement. It needs fixing just as much as Rogue. Ninja is just a rogue with more MAD and decent "talents."


Might need to make it an Advanced Talent as well, mainly to discourage 'dipping'.

Or you could just give it a "Rogue 4" requirement, like many rage powers, discoveries, etc... get. Rather than leaving the rogue bereft of the big important fix that makes him playable until super late. Just a thought...


Used this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-penetrating-strike-combat---final) as a rough guideline.
Funny thing I just noticed, the requirements of Penetrating Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/penetrating-strike-combat---final) have "Bab +1" and "Fighter 12". wut

If it only had the Fighter requirement, people would wonder why it isn't just a fighter class feature. By giving it a BAB requirement, it legitimizes it as a feat, you see. :smallwink:

[avr]

There's other ways to get around most DR (notably: use the right weapon/ammo) so IMO there is no need to delay getting the ability until later levels. If you want to keep it for agile roguish types, make it useable in light armor only or something. I'd make it a class ability rather than suck up rogue talents, the PF developers would do the reverse.

On that fighter feat you could construct a theory of how some exotic build was being prevented from accessing it or you could guess that a typo was involved. I know which I'm going with.

[Slipperychicken]

You could rebuild sneak attack like power attack: Minus to hit, plus to damage because you're going for juicier targets rather than center mass. And then, in situations conducive to sneak-attacks (those which normally trigger the damage), you get that bonus damage without taking a penalty to hit.

[Barstro]

I think it's a decent idea.

I just have two concerns (that are mine; you and your players might not care)
1) More of a glass canon. Going up against a high DR enemy means the Rogue will be the most important player and needs to me in melee range. IF the Rogue hits, game over. If the Rogue misses, he's liable to get destroyed by the powerful enemy. There's no "wearing down" (as if there is any in d20), there's no strategy other than "somehow get Sneak Attack". I personally prefer hitting 5/6 at 10 each than 1/6 at 50 each (or even 70 each)

2) All you are doing is making him better at a job that he was already pretty good at. It doesn't really broaden character development, it pigeonholes it even more.

If it were an issue with this particular Rogue in this particular campaign, I'd just eventually give him a weapon that bypasses DR and give more incentive to increase the "to hit" as opposed to damage. But you said "houserule", so it's not just a single-case-specific issue. I still think there should be increases is something other than damage, but maybe allow your ability x/day as a swift action.

[Sayt]

Used this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-penetrating-strike-combat---final) as a rough guideline.
Funny thing I just noticed, the requirements of Penetrating Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/penetrating-strike-combat---final) have "Bab +1" and "Fighter 12". wut

It's inheriting the +1 BAB requirement from Weapon Focus, which is something Pathfinder seems to do, and why the Swashbuckler treating it's cha as int for Combat Expertise so it can get into maneuver feats is broken, because the maneuver feats also require int is broken. Hopefully they fix that.

[Cloud]

*Shrugs,* mechanically it's not exactly bad, if not really helping what needs helping, however fluff wise it kind of ignores that DR is fluffed at firstly as wounds immediately healing. Feels a bit odd that a rogue would bypass effectively healing with precise strikes (and not say, Fast Healing). I'd probably help fix things that aren't just damage though.

If DR is really a massive problem in your games, maybe ask you can use transmuting weapons from Magic Item Compendium.

[Blyte]

I would say make it a basic talent, making it scale with level is enough to discourage dipping.

perhaps this.

negates 1 DR for every 2 rogue/ninja levels AND negates 10% fortification, and +10% for every 4 rogue levels.

so a 20 rogue will ignore 10/- DR and have negate 60% fortification

[grarrrg]

fluff wise it kind of ignores that DR is fluffed at firstly as wounds immediately healing. Feels a bit odd that a rogue would bypass effectively healing with precise strikes

It is 'sometimes' fluffed as insta-healing.
"instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable."
"Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body."

But given this:
"Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease."
I'm more inclined to say that most of the time DR is of the "bounced off" variety, as insta-healing shouldn't prevent poison/diseases and such.