A question of horror, paladins, and unusual sources of power

[Xuldarinar]

Allow me to start off with a quote from Heroes of Horror, Page 31, discussing adventuring classes as villains.



Paladin: A great paladin undertakes a quest to purge the region of a particular type of lycanthrope terrorizing the area, not distinguishing between the newly infected who could still be saved and the long corrupted. The PCs have been well and thoroughly framed for some horrible crime, and their pursuers include well-intentioned paladins loyal to the local ruler or churches. A paladin has grown vicious and draconic in his interpretation of the law and is oppressing his people; he either does not realize or does not care that he is mere steps away from falling from his god’s favor. (Perhaps an evil god or a demon lord is maintaining his powers without his awareness.)
Underline and italics for emphasis on what I am focusing on here.

I ask this of everyone who looks at this, how do you read this? What is your take on this?

[Angelalex242]

I don't think it's possible. If an Evil God starts sustaining a Paladin's powers, they change into Blackguard powers. He can't sustain a Paladin's powers as a Paladin.

More probable is a Miko type of Paladin who's just one short step away from going off the deep end. Most likely a paladin of St. Cuthbert too. St. Cuthbert will put up with Draconian Law a lot longer then Heironeus or Pelor would.

[hymer]

I think it might be an interesting idea exactly once during a player's life to come across this. It seems to me to be another (desperate and ill-conceived) twist to the fallen paladin, which I've seen quite enough of.
If I were to run a scenario like this, I'd just have the ex-pally pretend to be one still, but fully aware that he no longer operates with his former god and ecclesiastical hierarchy, but has in fact gone Blackguard.

[HammeredWharf]

It's highly questionable in traditional cases. A Paladin falls for any evil deed, so "oppressing his people" would be very hard for him to pull off without falling. A Paladin also can't be "mere steps away from falling from his god’s favor", because he's either fine or fallen. The code is that strict. A Cleric is a more likely candidate for this and I've actually switched a player's deity without telling him once after he slaughtered way too many people to maintain his neutral alignment. It was a fun RP opportunity.

The one case where this is possible is Ravenloft, where the Dark Powers grant divine spells without telling the caster. On the other hand, the Dark Powers don't have a known alignment.

[hamishspence]

A paladin who is LG but on the brink of becoming LN, might qualify as "mere steps from losing his deity's favor" though.

[afroakuma]

I don't think it's possible. If an Evil God starts sustaining a Paladin's powers, they change into Blackguard powers. He can't sustain a Paladin's powers as a Paladin.

Oh I wouldn't put it past what a god could do, but they could definitely stealth-convert him to a Paladin of Tyranny/Paladin of Slaughter. Your Judgmental Scanny Beam flips to the other side, but if you're the kind of jerk who 1) falls and doesn't notice and 2) likes to make decisions based on Judgmental Scanny Beam, you're going to think Detect Evil is still your jam. Similarly, while your innate healing abilities swap out for destructive ones, a god trying to slow-play you to the dark side might mask their effects with a channeled healing spell. I like to think that the deadly touch goes off right before the healing effect that masks it, so your "healing" touch causes screaming before any actual restoration takes place.

[John Longarrow]

If the Paladin sees any evil act as much more serious than it is (yelling at a child becomes child abuse, complimenting someone is sexual assault, singing is disrupting the community, that kind of thing) then they could be slipping LN. An evil entity causing their detect evil to register as much stronger than it really is can get the Paladin to start seeing themselves as being adrift in a world of evil, corruption, and exploitation.

Such a Paladin could start becoming much more strict in his "Protection" of his people to the point that they are frightened of him.

Not a tyrant, but someone no one feels comfortable going to for help with a problem. PCs can be called in to "Deal" with this leader that people no longer wish to follow.

Evil being is just waiting for something like this to happen to get the Paladin to overboard in protecting his charges. They've been laying bricks of good intentions for months (years) and are waiting for the Paladin to walk down to Hell.

[HammeredWharf]

A paladin who is LG but on the brink of becoming LN, might qualify as "mere steps from losing his deity's favor" though.

Yes, but I find it hard to believe someone on the brink of becoming LN hasn't done a single evil deed, especially if that person is an action hero like Paladins typically are. Keep in mind that evil is objective in D&D, so whatever excuses the Paladin comes up with don't matter.

[Slipperychicken]

"Tapping Evil Power" is an evil act (as per BoVD), so the paladin-powered-by-evil-god thing only works if the Paladin is unaware: Knowingly and willingly using any such power will fall him.

Also, the tyranny business should fall him for "Bringing Despair", if nothing else. If we had any details of his oppression, I'm sure it would trip multiple evil acts, not to mention acting without honor.


Honestly, it seems like Paladins are pretty unsuitable for the "Paragon of goodness" shtick, since they can barely take an evening stroll without switching sides to darkness. And you don't seem to get many "soft falls" either: They either remain paladins, or start committing genocide. If they were really sincere about the whole "goodness" thing, you'd think they would continue to serve the cause in a different class (or even a different alignment). Maybe they're all secretly socially-repressed genocidal maniacs, which would explain both their hatred for evil, and the ease with which they change over.

[HighWater]

I ask this of everyone who looks at this, how do you read this? What is your take on this?
I read this to mean DM-fiat can do whatever the heck it wants. The rules for Good/Evil are painfully well-defined in one section and then subverted in another. This particular section subverts the idea that gods pay very close attention to their worshippers, allowing more distance between actions and divine intervention as well as making it possible for other deity's to corrupt a dedicated soul (without which the smooth transition from Paladin of Heironeous to Blackguard of Hextor is just not possible).

For those who prefer the very clear Good/Evil interpretation, where these morals are completely objective, this won't work. These are often (but not always) the same people who focus on the RAW-difficulties of convincing a Paladin that he's still favored by his Deity (and there is a point to that, surely). I find this to be a boring paradigm in which Paladins are pretty boring characters that quickly go into Lawlful Stupid or Falling-Forever, which is a waste of a perfectly interesting Archetype. Personally I find this to be bad for roleplay by being too restrictive and I reject this Black/White morality. (I also remove the always evil/good alignments of anything mortal, I find that this leaves more room for the lawful vs chaotic spectrum, as well as opening up "normal" military conflicts between states.)

For those who prefer the Morality is Subjective standpoint, there is a lot more wiggleroom for morally conflicted or ambiguous characters. Paladins who struggle with their faith, or with the results of their "Good" actions can make for intriguing stories, being both the Knight in Shining Armor and the Tortured Soul. Paladins tempted to a complete reversal without Falling in the most obvious ways is a concept that can be executed in this style (provided the group can handle this, safest to test out on an NPC). Basically, you get to enact a decend-into-madness/darkness, with a maligning spirit or very complex moral decisions guiding the process. Downside of this standpoint is that there is no longer a completely neutral measure (RAW) along which you can judge decisions and actions. Instead the DM is the arbiter and it depends wildly on DM/Group composition for this to work out without the occasional (or very frequent) disagreement.

[squiggit]

Both seem pretty straight forward so I'm not sure why there's so much contention here.

The first example is easy because paladins don't need to be nice. The paladin truly believes the PCs are evil (criminals in one case monsters in the other) and as long as it's appropriately lawful to do so, hunting them down and defeating them is perfectly acceptable. Honestly this seems pretty standard fare, nothing requires the paladin to be a nice person.

The latter is a bit more odd, but I imagine you'd have an aspirant approached by a dark god or devil or demon masquerading as some force for justice, grant the aspirant powers that look holy enough and send them against targets that look evil enough, but help serve the fiend's agenda.

[ArqArturo]

I don't think it's possible. If an Evil God starts sustaining a Paladin's powers, they change into Blackguard powers. He can't sustain a Paladin's powers as a Paladin.

More probable is a Miko type of Paladin who's just one short step away from going off the deep end. Most likely a paladin of St. Cuthbert too. St. Cuthbert will put up with Draconian Law a lot longer then Heironeus or Pelor would.

How about a paladin of Wee-Jas?.

[Angelalex242]

Wee Jas doesn't have Paladins that I know of. Cuthbert does because he's LN leaning good. Wee Jas is a true LN.

But all the same, it's easier to basically run the Paladin as Miko then trying to rule 0 your way into evil Paladins.

[Feint's End]

I'm just gonna leave this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1115741) here.

[squiggit]

Wee Jas doesn't have Paladins that I know of. Cuthbert does because he's LN leaning good. Wee Jas is a true LN.
The only rule is "within one step" of the deity's alignment. Both Cuthbert and Wee Jas are equally eligible to have paladins. Hell, the RKV's flavor text even says a good chunk of them are paladins.

[AuraTwilight]

Doesn't "Evil god supporting the powers of out of control paladins" literally describe atleast a couple NPCs in Ravenloft?

[Zalphon]

My advice is this...

Have him fall from grace, perhaps even into the Lawful Evil territory. And have Hextor answer him. Have Hextor show him that the other gods were weak. They cared entirely too much about being kind rather than protecting their subjects.

Make this Paladin a Blackguard and have him introduce a tyrannical regime. Their aim? Absolute control of the populace so that they may protect and better utilize their abilities, for their own good. After all, the Hextorians know what's best.

[Angelalex242]

Well, yes, but they only do that for domain lords. Keep in mind becoming a Domain Lord in the first place requires you to do SEVERAL deeds, any one of which is sufficient for losing your powers.

(And if a "Paladin" is Lord of a Ravenloft Domain, she's going to make Miko look like a kind, caring soul.)

[Gildedragon]

A way to go around it: the paladin fell. Right then an EG swoops in and grants them paladin powers (not anti paladin, black guard, evil paladin, or the like powers; just straight up (dis)honest to (un)goodness paladin powers) and masquerades as their god. It works v. tidily in a divinely ambiguous setting like Eberron or the darkened settings posited by HoH.
Or the paladin falls, their atonement is hypocritical, but it "works" and the fiend keeps the pally's good-looking abilities. A full fall and loss or change of powers would prompt the pally to review their morality

[Coidzor]

Allow me to start off with a quote from Heroes of Horror, Page 31, discussing adventuring classes as villains.


Underline and italics for emphasis on what I am focusing on here.

I ask this of everyone who looks at this, how do you read this? What is your take on this?

I don't believe it should really be metaphysically possible. It's worse than a [Good] Cleric preparing [Evil] spells.

You have to alter the Paladin into being less a Paladin and more an entity that is magically enhanced by a Power.

The closest to this I would ever do would be to change their actual power set into something else gradually, like a piece-meal, bit-by-bit version of trading in levels for Blackguard levels or gaining bonuses as a blackguard for fallen paladin levels.

Granted, I'm one of those weird people who dislikes the conflation of Paladins as servants of principles above and beyond the Powers with people who are infused with part of a Power's power to make specific champions that aren't spellcasting heavyweights like Clerics.

Edit:
I'm just gonna leave this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1115741) here.

OK, point. The Burning Hate is one of very few exceptions I can think of. Though I complicate it by having the influence of the power of belief at work in giving The Burning Hate either a conflicted inner nature or the beginnings of such.


The only rule is "within one step" of the deity's alignment. Both Cuthbert and Wee Jas are equally eligible to have paladins. Hell, the RKV's flavor text even says a good chunk of them are paladins.

That's only for Clerics unless I missed something in the relevant text. You can worship any Power you like without having to match their alignment or be within one step of it.

[Jeff the Green]

You have to remember that, despite having material everyone uses for normal games, HoH is not for your average fantasy game. It's geared toward transforming D&D into horror, and that's difficult within the rules. Most of HoH involves changing the rules somewhat in order to inspire fear and dread. (For example, the taint system.) There's also a couple different alternatives to the normal alignment system in there that would work with this. The taint as alignment system would work particularly well: in this instance paladins aren't necessarily champions of good, they're warriors against the all-consuming taint that befouled the land. Such a paladin could certainly be tempted to use extreme measures against the tainted that would piss off his god but not make him tainted and this fall.

[Coidzor]

You have to remember that, despite having material everyone uses for normal games, HoH is not for your average fantasy game. It's geared toward transforming D&D into horror, and that's difficult within the rules. Most of HoH involves changing the rules somewhat in order to inspire fear and dread. (For example, the taint system.) There's also a couple different alternatives to the normal alignment system in there that would work with this. The taint as alignment system would work particularly well: in this instance paladins aren't necessarily champions of good, they're warriors against the all-consuming taint that befouled the land. Such a paladin could certainly be tempted to use extreme measures against the tainted that would piss off his god but not make him tainted and this fall.

Indeed. It's just when they're altered to that point Paladins don't feel Paladiny anymore.

[Angelalex242]

Right. Paladin is supposed to act like he came out of King Arthur's court. (And if he happens to be Exalted, he's Sir Galahad instead.) But even a normal paladin like King Arthur himself qualifies. Sir Lancelot used to qualify until that sad day came when he couldn't keep it in his codpiece anymore around the Queen. (Betrayal of your liege lord? Evil.)

[Jeff the Green]

Indeed. It's just when they're altered to that point Paladins don't feel Paladiny anymore.

That's the point. Horror, particularly in D&D, comes from perverting expectations. In the case of the paladin, he still thinks he's Good, and for the most part acts like it (he may even be Good, depending on his actions), but his sense of right and wrong are subtly twisted. Maybe he has a cursed Phylactery of Faithfulness. Maybe a demon has disguised itself as a servant of Good and convinced him his atrocities are justified. Maybe he pissed off a druid and she cast brambles on that stick up his ass.

[Coidzor]

That's the point. Horror, particularly in D&D, comes from perverting expectations. In the case of the paladin, he still thinks he's Good, and for the most part acts like it (he may even be Good, depending on his actions), but his sense of right and wrong are subtly twisted. Maybe he has a cursed Phylactery of Faithfulness. Maybe a demon has disguised itself as a servant of Good and convinced him his atrocities are justified. Maybe he pissed off a druid and she cast brambles on that stick up his ass.

I don't think you should have Paladins be a thing that's possible in such a case, because changing them to that point defeats the point of having Paladins unless you're just going for a cheap thrill. And going for the cheap thrill... :smalltongue:

Granted, I always felt that the "crappy, martial substitute to Clerics for deities" niche should be separated out from Paladins anyway.

[Angelalex242]

Ya know, for a class with the strictest RP requirements in the game, you'd think it'd be at least tier 3, if not tier 2.

...But it's not. The code turns out to be an added flaw on a character that has trouble slaying evil fighters, let alone neutral fighters.

[ArqArturo]

I think there's already a thread about that :smallbiggrin:, but yeah, the code gets in the way of doing good.

[Slipperychicken]

Ya know, for a class with the strictest RP requirements in the game, you'd think it'd be at least tier 3, if not tier 2.


They clearly tried to make it a gish-in-a-can, giving the class full BAB (which they highly overvalued at the time), spells, and an assortment of other features.


As for the RP requirements, it seems like Clerics were supposed to have similar codes, but they just kind of dropped the idea. Presumably, either nobody felt like writing codes of conduct for every god's clerics, or they quickly realized what a colossal mistake the Paladin code was.


A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).