Dungeon Crasher Questions

[tricktroller]

Ok folks, so my question is this, do you get the PA bonus damage to the damage when you smash someone into a wall with dungeoncrasher? I kind of need to know for a character concept I am working on. Thanks for your time!

[tricktroller]

Also do other creatures count as solid objects for the damage? Like if I slapped a guy into another enemy would it deal him the 8d6 plus triple strength damage?

[Curmudgeon]

Dungeon Crasher adds damage to Bull Rush attacks, which normally do not involve an attack roll and do no damage, so Power Attack (which alters your attack roll to adjust your damage) can't apply. Your STR bonus is part of the Dungeon Crasher formula already and does not change.

No, other characters don't count as "a wall or other solid object". Really, come on; if you can move one character about just by pushing them, why would another character not be similarly movable rather than fixed in place like a wall?

[tricktroller]

Well I didn't know if they meant as in an inanimate object or as in something that is physically solid. If they mean an "immovable inanimate object" then that would be one thing. The reasoning behind my question is physics. You transfer momentum into them, they impact something, equal and opposite reactions happens dealing damage to both of the involved parties from their collision.

[OldTrees1]

Well I didn't know if they meant as in an inanimate object or as in something that is physically solid. If they mean an "immovable inanimate object" then that would be one thing. The reasoning behind my question is physics. You transfer momentum into them, they impact something, equal and opposite reactions happens dealing damage to both of the involved parties from their collision.

Solid implies that the object is immobile enough to crush your victim into. A soft object (one that would take collision damage) would not be usable for dungeoncrasher (as evidenced by the solid object taking no damage from the ability).

[infomatic]

Usually the safe assumption is "don't bring physics into D&D".

In Dungeoncrasher's case, bashing somebody into another person doesn't qualify. The use of a wall as an example would suggest that the rules mean to use "solid object" as one that is fixed in place and hard, not merely "solid" as a state of matter.

Note that Dungeoncrashers will probably also have Shock Trooper, which does give you a tactical reason to push people into each other.

[tricktroller]

Well that was the idea, slam a dude 60 feet away from into another guy trip both of them and do 8d6+3x Str to them both.

In all honesty I don't understand why a wall counts but a person doesn't. If I slam you 60 feet away form me into another person you are both going to be messed up in a serious way.

[Kazudo]

Usually the safe assumption is "don't bring physics into D&D".

Worth noting though that there is a section of the DMG that talks about physics working in-game typically the same way as in real life as long as the DM hasn't created a clause around it.

But no, another character wouldn't count as a wall. Specific types of golems or particularly heavy enemies could be a potential difference, but RAW doesn't make any exceptions for that.

Granted, few things are immobile to someone with high enough STR.

EDIT:

Well that was the idea, slam a dude 60 feet away from into another guy trip both of them and do 8d6+3x Str to them both.

In all honesty I don't understand why a wall counts but a person doesn't. If I slam you 60 feet away form me into another person you are both going to be messed up in a serious way.

But not "bullrushed and smashed into a stone wall by a really strong fighter" serious way. D&D mechanics when put into combat don't work the same way, so really the two characters would never (if I understand Bull Rush mechanics correctly) be in the same square (save for the bull rushing individual, and that's only at the moment of impact).

[tricktroller]

I am using the knockback feat which allows you to basically punt people when you hit them with a powerattack. I hit them, initiate a free bullrush that I do not have to follow them on and thus I run up and punch people into other people.

"In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a
bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall
or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your
momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount
of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your
Strength bonus (if any)."

Wall or solid object. Not similar solid object, just a solid object, so table, chairs, barrel, a desk, a human in armor, a human not in armor. I would rule as a DM that all of these things qualify as solid. Something that is big enough that your surface area matches or your surface area is less than. So a halfling would not count for a human, mostly because you would trip over them rather than impact them.

[Kazudo]

Wall or solid object. Not similar solid object, just a solid object, so table, chairs, barrel, a desk, a human in armor, a human not in armor. I would rule as a DM that all of these things qualify as solid. Something that is big enough that your surface area matches or your surface area is less than. So a halfling would not count for a human, mostly because you would trip over them rather than impact them.

Ok. Well, if that's how you'd rule then I'd say you go with it. However, having smashed some tables and chairs and humans in and out of armor, it's not quite the same as attempting to smash a stone wall by any concept of the situation.

[tricktroller]

It isn't about breaking the wall, it is about the effect of a solid object interacting with a body in motion. If you impact an object, whether it be a human, or a wall that has greater mass than you do, then you will be taking damage from the transfer of kinetic energy.

[Kazudo]

It isn't about breaking the wall, it is about the effect of a solid object interacting with a body in motion. If you impact an object, whether it be a human, or a wall that has greater mass than you do, then you will be taking damage from the transfer of kinetic energy.

Unless the object you're smashing into moves, as a human body/table/chair would given enough force to cause the kind of damage Dungeoncrasher causes upon impacting with a solid object.

[Khedrac]

Don't forget that one can always choose to allow another character through your square. So you bullrush an ally through my square and I have the choice of letting them hit me (both taking damage) or letting them through (no damage) - I will do the second.
What's more I won't allow you through (if you try I take my AoO) and you cannot bullrush me - you already did that this round to the first victim.

Result - yes you can bullrush someone into another person, but that person will usually let them through - thus negating the damage.

[Anlashok]

It also helps that humans aren't objects. They're creatures.

[Kazudo]

Don't forget that one can always choose to allow another character through your square. So you bullrush an ally through my square and I have the choice of letting them hit me (both taking damage) or letting them through (no damage) - I will do the second.
What's more I won't allow you through (if you try I take my AoO) and you cannot bullrush me - you already did that this round to the first victim.

Result - yes you can bullrush someone into another person, but that person will usually let them through - thus negating the damage.

That's a good point. A character rarely takes up their entire 25 square feet, so by pure D&D mechanics this is a valid point. You'd have to make a second Bullrush attempt at whatever completely mobile creature you were aiming at (this isn't RAW, but neither is Dungeoncrashing into other creatures, so we'll speculate) which wouldn't be possible since you'd be in the middle of a Bullrush, which is an action following a Charge, which is a full round action.

EDIT:

It also helps that humans aren't objects. They're creatures.

Well, I think at this point it's a given that the fact that Dungeoncrasher requires solid objects or walls isn't really what the OP wanted to know about. But, again, a valid point.

[tricktroller]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/object people are objects too.

Also, you cannot choose to step out of the way of a bullrush, only an overrun.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm

[Anlashok]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/object people are objects too.
Your mistake here is using a dictionary to define terms with specific meanings in the game.


Also, you cannot choose to step out of the way of a bullrush, only an overrun.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm

Nothing in the text you've linked says anything about bullrushing an enemy into another enemy though. At best you could extrapolate what happens when you fail and get knocked into an occupied space: they fall prone and nothing else happens to them and nothing at all happens to the person you bullrushed them towards.

Actually bringin up overrun hurts your point since bull rushing through a square and overrunning it are similar conceptually. The second person could easily argue that those rules (or normal rules for moving through an occupied square) apply to this situation.

[tricktroller]

I'm fairly certain there is no DnD definition of what is an "object". However, if you can find it and link it or a page number I'd be happy to concede your point.

You can argue that it's an overrun until you are blue in the face, it is still a bullrush. It is all part of a bullrush, so saying it is an overrun is like saying a fireball is a flame strike, though conceptually similar, they are different in practice.

[Vaz]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities

Checkm out Wisdom and Charisma. Anything with no Charisma or Wisdom is considered an object.

[Kazudo]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities

Checkm out Wisdom and Charisma. Anything with no Charisma or Wisdom is considered an object.

Interesting. Which means that Animated Objects aren't game-rule objects. That's pretty legit, since they can, yaknow, move. And stuff.

[tricktroller]

That's a bit obscure, but I can live with that. Arguments could be made that it is only one way that a thing may be classified an object, especially since that is the only reference I have seen ever that distinguishes between what is a creature and what is an object, though I'm sure more are lurking about.

So as far as this discussion goes most if not all of you would rule that other creatures are not solid objects? What about say a colossal creature? If not that is fine I still get to use shocktrooper to trip people that I slap away from me.

Also yes or no to PA damage on the 8d6?

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

The bonus and the penalty last until your next round, they apply to all melee damage rolls, I would argue that the damage from the bullrush is a melee damage roll due to the fact that I didn't do it with a ranged weapon.

[Kazudo]

That's a bit obscure, but I can live with that. Arguments could be made that it is only one way that a thing may be classified an object, especially since that is the only reference I have seen ever that distinguishes between what is a creature and what is an object, though I'm sure more are lurking about.

So as far as this discussion goes most if not all of you would rule that other creatures are not solid objects? What about say a colossal creature? If not that is fine I still get to use shocktrooper to trip people that I slap away from me.

Also yes or no to PA damage on the 8d6?

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

The bonus and the penalty last until your next round, they apply to all melee damage rolls, I would argue that the damage from the bullrush is a melee damage roll due to the fact that I didn't do it with a ranged weapon.

Curmudgeon already answered that a few posts up and said that would be a no. I'm inclined to agree since it's not a melee attack roll, making it not a melee damage roll, just a damage roll, to be specific.

And as I stated, particularly large creatures I would potentially rule (depending on circumstance) to be similar to a wall. But that would be a house rule since they are not objects.

HOWEVER.

Since you're using Knockback, you can make a power-attacked strike and get a free bullrush attempt, which may or may not help when using Dungeoncrasher (I'm AFB at the moment).

EDIT:

This thread may help you further. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?200784-Dungeoncrasher-Optimization)