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Spasticteapot
2007-02-13, 03:29 AM
In return for help from a local Linux guru, I'm likely going to be running a game of D&D for his kids and their friends. I'm pretty rusty, but I'd like to see if anyone here has any reccomendations.

They've been using their dad's old AD&D (original 1st edition - the ooold ones!), and know the basics.

So, anyway...

1. Print out a chunk of the SRD and give it to the kids so they can learn 3.5 without buying the nastily expensive books. I can run 2e and 3.5e, and even "red box original" D&D, but I'm not learning a new system. If anyone could point me to the useful sections (rules, character creation, et cetera), I'd be grateful.

2. Low magic. Magic makes headaches, and as soon as the kids start using it effectively, I'm obligated to do the same. (A single sleep spell can KO a whole party, allowing for an end result that, at Belkar put it, rhymes with "hitting their goats".)

I was thinking of simply limiting it to bards only. This keeps down the magic level, and restricts the use of magic from many low-level enemies. (After all, who ever heard of a Bugbear with a good singing voice?)

As an added bonus, this brings in all the assorted fun bard abilities, and the multiple abilitiy scores required for a successful bard mean that not everyone could be one, even if they wanted to.

3. An obviously kid-friendly setting with itsy-bitsy villages, and no big cities. After all, a hamlet of fifty people can't really support hookers.

I was thinking of basing it off Norse mythology - if only in terms of locale and monsters. The gods would be the standard-issue gods, unless, of course, someone can point me to an easy - to - use set of deities that I don't need to pay for.

There's also a strong Norse tradition of bards.

Any other suggestions?

Quietus
2007-02-13, 03:44 AM
I think you'd have a problem with using Bards - my suggestion would be to limit it to the "Main" classes - Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric. Maybe replace Sorceror with Wizard, since that would be easier to deal with, and search out a sorceror-esque solution to the Cleric. I'm sure that if one doesn't already exist (does the cloistered cleric prepare spells, guys, or does it cast spontaneously?), then it'd be easy enough to homebrew one. Give it all the same stats as a sorceror, except domains give extra spells known and they always know Heal spells, instead of getting a familiar. Easy enough. Makes everything nice and easy - the players pick which spells they want their character to know, makes for a shorter list.

I don't know much about Norse mythology, so I can't help you there - any advice I could give would be related to handling children, which I assume you probably already have some idea of how to do. I apologize if that last sentence wasn't English, it's almost 4 AM. Speaking of children - just how old are these kids you'll be running the game for?

AoiRorentsu
2007-02-13, 04:24 AM
Well, if you want sorceror-esque divine caster, try the favored soul- it's not in the SRD i don't think, but it's the closest thing I can think of. It's from a new book called Complete Divine.

Also, be wary that the SRD barely teaches you jack about anything at all. It is, as the "R" signifies, a reference. There's little explanation, particularly fluff for classes and races. Your players may not get what a "bard" is, even. Could be good for granting greater creativity but also may be confusing to new players. I would suggest allowing the cleric and the sorceror.

Also, as someone who has played both 2nd and 3rd editions, I have to say that the 3rd edition is much easier to learn than previous additions were. Once you get the core mechanic (everything is a d20 roll with some modifiers against a difficulty class of some kind), the rest is just adding the appropriate modifiers for the situation.

daggaz
2007-02-13, 05:30 AM
Limit it to fighter, barbarian, cleric, sorcerer (or wizard but sorcerer probably easier for them) and rogue. Core only. Magic isn't that hard, and at low levels, its actually really easy (and really useful). Besides, why limit them so hard? If you try and run a game with just melee, you will quickly find the battles become mundane and monotonous, and you will be missing out on much needed buffs and heals. Besides, by the time they are high enough level to start casting wierd spells, you will long since figured out the system. The SRD contains everything you need to know, except the xp tables for PC's (just tier it, so each level takes 1000 more xp than the last), and the treasure tables for encounters if Im not mistaken, but you can find those elsewhere. Oh and its missing some of the fluffier descriptions about combat etc.. If you got a good sense of logic, you can figure the rules out. Start by reading the combat section very carefully, make sure you understand the AoO rules. Then work out the differences with all the classes..

Wehrkind
2007-02-13, 05:41 AM
I dunno, I think a very low magic Norse setting would be kind of fun. You might want to prep the kids with a few good myths or a movie that is setting related (none come to mind other than the Lord of the Rings) to get them in the mindset. It is often a lot easier to get kids to imagine all the same things if you show it to them first, otherwise they tend to think in as many different directions as they have eyes.

Edit: Oh, also, I would give each one some special treasure off the bat. Let them pick from a list if you would like, but something to make them feel special. That seems to be key to keeping kids interested, is standing out how they want to, which is usually not the character centric way adults consider standing out. Consider that most childrens' cartoons have the main character be unusually special in some way, either magical, or with some special powerful heirloom. Heck, watch one of the old Dungeons and Dragons cartoons on YouTube for ideas. just remember that Kids =! Subtle, and you will be fine.

daggaz
2007-02-13, 05:52 AM
"kids wanting to stand out in the way they want to" is exactly the reason I thought banning normal spellcasters would be a bad idea. I can easily see the look of furrowed dissappointment when little Suzy doesn't get to be the new Harry Potter.Besides, the books are designed around magic. Building a low magic setting requires extra work, figuring out how to balance a group against monsters, how to heal, how to get around all the existing rules for high magic, etc..

Thomas
2007-02-13, 06:01 AM
Magic works fine with younger gamers. Keep the games low-level and don't hand out too many extra spells (the standard 2 new spells per level for wizards is fine), and you'll be fine.

Wehrkind
2007-02-13, 06:12 AM
Well, I figure it is easier on little Suzy if being Harry Potter is right out, hence the focus on more low magic settings, like Lord of the Rings. There is still healing to be had, particularly through items (give that bard a lute of cure light wounds and win.) I don't think that most young gamers would be happy with how limited low level spell casters are, especially expecting Harry Potter type mastery at a young age.

WrathOfLife
2007-02-13, 06:57 AM
Well, I learnt in a simlair way. Friend brought an old tomb of a book which turned out to be an orginal D&D box set thingy, with the big ol pretty dragon on it and started from there.

Magic adds a great element to it. Speically if you don't let it hold fast and strong to the rules. Remember, kids don't want rules and boundries, they want fun, excitment and mystery. Maybe that floating disk can be used to push the fighter along to the dragon (injuried naturally with no questions as to the morals of killing it) so it can get a full attack in? It helps make them feel clever for working out a cool way of playing and it helps encourage them to read further into the rules to allow them to find more interesting ways to do things.

Bender
2007-02-13, 06:58 AM
I wouldn't let them read the rules themselves (not in the beginning at least), they will easily misinterpret them, preferably in a way which favours them and they won't like being less powerful than they thought they were.
I would start with a short explanation of the basics (no need to go into detail on skills and feats, or even things like flanking or tumbling in battle). Prepare maybe some basic characters to let them choose from (let them roll the stats themselves). Then, you can start with a kind of tutorial adventure, where they gradually learn the rules (how to use certain skills, special actions in combat...)

I wouldn't allow animal companions, mounts or familiars: children might expect too much and others might be jealous they don't get a pet (which an animal companion is not, but they might consider it to be)
I would allow spellcasting

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-13, 07:13 AM
We still don't know how old these kids are. It could make a difference. For instance, itsa lot easier to run a game for 15 year olds (who people insist on calling children) than fr 11 year olds.

Spasticteapot
2007-02-13, 09:19 AM
First...thanks to everyone who replied!


We still don't know how old these kids are. It could make a difference. For instance, itsa lot easier to run a game for 15 year olds (who people insist on calling children) than fr 11 year olds.

I believe the median age is 12.

The reason I'm worried about magic is that I'm pretty darn good at using it. Color spray and sleep are both nasty 1st-level spells that, if cast repeatedly, have a good chance of knocking out 1st or 2nd level fighters and barbarians, allowing the caster's buddies (likely goblins or even kobolds) to run up and prod the spellcasters to death.

Casters also have very little HP. Freddie the Sorcerer will have 6-7 HP at 2nd level, while Barry the Barbarian could easily have 24hp. Guess what happens when Freddie wants to join the melee, too?

Heck, one Magic Missle is enough to take him out.

Thomas
2007-02-13, 09:29 AM
I wouldn't let them read the rules themselves (not in the beginning at least), they will easily misinterpret them, preferably in a way which favours them and they won't like being less powerful than they thought they were.

You know, in 12+ years of gaming (starting at age 10-11, often as a GM after the first few times), I've never told, asked, suggested, or expected my players to read the rules to any game I'm running. I've just taught them as we go along. The first few times, characters are created together... at some point, often during pauses in the game, players read bits of the rules... and so on.

It's worked great so far.


Keep games low-level. The kids probably don't know how much experience they're supposed to get, anyway, so they won't feel cheated; give out less than the book suggests. At low levels, fights are short and sweet, and every roll can be a "triumph" in itself. (I can't imagine kids having the patience for the long, tactical - even strategic - fights a few levels up. Then again, I guess I was playing games like Fantasy General at age 12, so maybe they'd manage...) Hand out just the amount of magic items you think they'll need, and make those items feel special. (Heck, that applies to games with players of any age...)

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 10:02 AM
First...thanks to everyone who replied!



I believe the median age is 12.

The reason I'm worried about magic is that I'm pretty darn good at using it. Color spray and sleep are both nasty 1st-level spells that, if cast repeatedly, have a good chance of knocking out 1st or 2nd level fighters and barbarians, allowing the caster's buddies (likely goblins or even kobolds) to run up and prod the spellcasters to death.

Casters also have very little HP. Freddie the Sorcerer will have 6-7 HP at 2nd level, while Barry the Barbarian could easily have 24hp. Guess what happens when Freddie wants to join the melee, too?

Heck, one Magic Missle is enough to take him out.

So throw non-magic-wielding baddies at them. If you know one MM will take the caster out, then don't do that. You can choose how to run your game, and you probably shouldn't pull out all the stops against the kids like you might against adults who've been playing since Chainmail (um...the 70's version).

Cut em a break. The world won't end if you do. Just make sure Vogons don't exist in your campaign, and if they do, they have no interest in bypasses.

Kesnit
2007-02-13, 10:14 AM
The reason I'm worried about magic is that I'm pretty darn good at using it. Color spray and sleep are both nasty 1st-level spells that, if cast repeatedly, have a good chance of knocking out 1st or 2nd level fighters and barbarians, allowing the caster's buddies (likely goblins or even kobolds) to run up and prod the spellcasters to death.

So don't cast repeatedly.


Casters also have very little HP. Freddie the Sorcerer will have 6-7 HP at 2nd level, while Barry the Barbarian could easily have 24hp. Guess what happens when Freddie wants to join the melee, too?

Heck, one Magic Missle is enough to take him out.

As others have said, adjust as necessary to keep the kids from dying. Barry the Barbarian could fail his Will save against Sleep and get slaughtered just as easily as Freddie getting hit with MM.

Talk up how much fun magic is to Freddie. And maybe you won't have to. Maybe there'll be a kid who would love to play a mage. Meet the kids, find out what they want, and base your game around that.

Siberys
2007-02-13, 10:17 AM
I started at ten, It took me about three years to have a full, complete understanding of the rules, but I was teaching myself. With a mentor, It wont ber hard.

I suggest the 3E starter set, or the basic sets. Work like a charm :smallsmile:

Greenfaun
2007-02-13, 11:23 AM
A couple things-

I like your norse low-magic idea, personally. If one or more of your kids is dead-set on playing harry potter, then it's true, it's a bit awkward, but I think it could be cool. I would recommend allowing druids and bards for casters (only call the bards "skalds" and say their magic comes from knowing how to use magic runes) because then you've got various useful support and summoning magic, and two classes that can heal, without having to use the conflicting fluff of wizards etc.

This would also allow you to make the adventuring party all from the same village, going a-viking together for money and glory or just to escape the monotony of farming and fishing. It might be nice of you, if you take this approach, to give the party a small boat of their own and give all the characters a few ranks in Profession: sailor and Survival to reflect their background.


Second, the movie "The Thirteenth Warrior" offers a pretty good look at life in scandinavia at this time. It's a little romantic and fantastic, but it's a more realistic portrayal of the culture and lifestyle than any other movie I know of. In a nutshell, it's the story of an Arab courtier & poet who gets assigned to the north country as an ambassador as punishment for having an affair with the wrong woman. He gets roped into going on an old-fashioned saga-style adventure with a bunch of Northmen. One of the things that makes the movie so good is the reversal of "otherness"- the modern audience has an easier time identifying with the civilized arab than the proud, primitive scandinavians. Anyway, check it out, it might make a good activity for the first night you get together, perhaps along with making characters.

Grknhydn
2007-02-13, 11:37 AM
Well, I'll have to agree with spastic in saying that magic is DEFINITELY not the way to go when running in a campaign with children. It really is too complicated for a group of 12 year olds. The best thing, I have noticed, for a low-level, low age, low magic campaign has always been the Lord of the Rings setting, however it doesn't really have the availability of that Norse Diety feel that you said you were looking for.

When I run into something like this, what I tend to do is say, "Screw it, I'll make my own little world!" It's really not all that difficult, considering. Most players, even 12 year olds, are pretty good about the whole, "This is a Generic Fantasy setting, only (X exception)."
Then you can add stuff in as things go on, and you don't have to worry about game lawyers that say things like (*Starts his Simpsons Comic book guy voice*), "Oh, but the Elves of Derescor in the book, "Elves of extremely long names" hadn't developed Composite long bows until 1672 of the Verash Era, and this is CLEARLY set in 1650 due to the mention earlier of the Veradin Dwarves being defeated by the Lich Bobo not two months ago!"

Ahem. That went on a rant there... My point is, I would recommend having the characters stick to Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, and Bard. The Barbarian would be fine if you did the math for them on the benefits of Barbarian Rage. It is always good to have at least one Cleric, but if you are going to let them play one, you should probably do their spell list for them, to make things simpler. Sorcerers lean towards the "Getting too complicated" phase, as the saving throws can really get confusing for younger folks.

Anyways, that's me trying to help. If they aren't cheering for you, then you should blame Al Gore for inventing the internet.

The best darn Dwarven Bard in the world,
~Grknhydn Drtnrdnhrdn

clarkvalentine
2007-02-13, 11:52 AM
Do not underestimate the ability of a 12 year old brain to grasp complicated rules. I learned rules for complex RPGs in my teen years far quicker than I do now (mid-30s). In my experience, preteen and teen gamers eat complicated rules up - they love it.

Young brains are sponges, as long as the owner of said brain is interested in the material.

jjpickar
2007-02-13, 12:01 PM
I don't think anyone is giving the 12 year olds any slack. If they can figure out the intricacies of cellphones and the internet (I have over two decades behind me and I still can't figure out how to text message effectively:smallredface: ) then they can probably learn how to lob fireballs.

Also, low magic and realistic settings probably won't appeal that much to kids (unless you intend to run epic battles on the scale of Lord of the Rings fairly often). But I don't know what they like and if I were you, I'd ask them what they like before planning out a whole adventure only to get a few sessions in and realize that they hate it. Kids tend to be a fickle lot in general.

Penguinizer
2007-02-13, 12:06 PM
I recommend asking beforehand if they want a simpler, less magic based setting, or a normal one, with normal amounts of magic.

Swordguy
2007-02-13, 12:10 PM
Do not underestimate the ability of a 12 year old brain to grasp complicated rules. I learned rules for complex RPGs in my teen years far quicker than I do now (mid-30s). In my experience, preteen and teen gamers eat complicated rules up - they love it.

Young brains are sponges, as long as the owner of said brain is interested in the material.

Fair enough. What I'm saying, though, is would he blow large numbers of sleep spells on any given party of 1st level characters, regardless of player age? The answer really ought to be "no". So don't do it for these guys.

GolemsVoice
2007-02-13, 12:19 PM
I also think, no matter what setting you play, explain their classes to them.
Like: "You are a fighter, like Aragorn for example, that means you have armor and a shiny sword. Fighters often act like this... You are the wizar, wizards are strange and mystical. Whizards like doning this..." And yeah, give them some funny magical gadget like all the heroes of the series. One which is not game-defining, but is cool and useful to have around.

estradling
2007-02-13, 12:22 PM
I’ve taught my 7 year-old how to play an old space-ship combat game with all kind of dice rolls, charts, and maneuvers… So I can attest that if the interest is there then learning will follow…



I am planning to introduce him to DND shortly… I’ll let him pick from some pregenerated character sheets and put him right into some kind of fight… Each round I fully expect to have to tell him what his options are and in many ways guide his actions to the better ones… In the end I hope to give him enough choices to feel that its ‘his’ actions while taking care of everything that would just be over his head… After a few combats he’ll start asking why things are the way they are and that’s when he’ll get the rest.

You’ve got an older group of players so you can spend more time explaining, but I think you’ll be better of showing them by doing then spending a lot of time talking.

MrNexx
2007-02-13, 12:23 PM
1) What age are we talking about?
2) If they've been playing 1st edition, you might want to try it. OSRIC (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/) is available for free, and will give you what you need to know without much hassle. If you know 2nd edition, there's not much new to learn. It'll make the transition simpler, and a lot of the changes you want to make.
3) What age are we talking about? I've done this several times, but so much comes down to the ages, genders, and psychologies of the kids.

Black Hand
2007-02-13, 12:33 PM
I've had some experience on DM'ing kids. I had introduced 2 of my boys last year, they were 9 & 5 at the time, and I had to introduce it easily to them.

I find with young players, let them start off as a fighter to get used to things, and let them roll their stats. Second for ones this young, pick out the skills and feats for them and give a quick explanation on how they do. Power attack and Cleave is usually the way to go. As for skills, don't get too deep into it really, but mention the skill when they want to try do something related to it...spot, search, hide..etc.

With the younger one, since he couldn't read, it was just a matter of opening the PHB and having him pick a picture of the armor and weapons he wanted, along with the picture of the race. His char sheet was done differently as it had to be visual, so the HP, and armor class were a heart and shield respectivly, as with other things like attack & initiative (the letters ususally work for that)

After a few games to get them used to the process on how a game goes...some roleplaying, some combat, some suspense. They both were interested in trying a little bit more....the now 10 year old had branched his character to be a fighter/warmage (I guess blowing stuff up is easier) and the now 6 year old is a fighter/rogue. And both have the basic knack for it.

If your group is primarily 12 year olds it should be much easier. Just give them the base in mechanics for their characers...attack AC HP's and such. Leave the saves until they have to use them, then they'll have a better understanding on when they're needed. Just start off simple and be flexable as they're going to suggest things such as tactics or actions that may not necessarily mesh with how the official rules work right away.

Awetugiw
2007-02-13, 01:32 PM
If you want to make the players feel special, make the encouters against a large amount of low CR enemies. Defeating high-CR bad guy just isn't as epic as hacking/casting your way through loads of low-CR enemies.

Of course this doesn't count for epic enemies like dragons, but one owuld need pretty high level characters for that anyway.

valadil
2007-02-13, 01:44 PM
I don't see anything wrong with giving them spells. You might want to give out a smaller list of spells, or not use spells until the PCs have used them. I'm sure they can use sleep just as effectively as you can.

I agree with the posters who said that you shouldn't give them the rules too. I look back very fondly on RPGs where nobody knew the system but the GM. We just tried to represent out ideas of what a character was like, instead of worrying about powerful builds and such. By the time we were 14 or 15, some players had their own rule books, and people were starting to powergame. If they want the rules, have them ready, but don't feel like you have to give everyone all the rules ahead of time.

If you're still worried about magic and such, you could give out premade characters. Maybe explain that you're doing a demo game to get them used to the system and that after that they can design their own. I wouldn't assign anybody any characters - just make 2-3 times as many as you have players and pick and choose who you want to play.

Also, if you're still limiting magic, I don't think bard is the way to go. Bards rarely get the chance to shine. They're good at a lot of things, but unless it's a very small game, the bard will never be the best at any one thing. Each player should have a turn in the spotlight, and the player who is the bard has less of a chance at getting that. I'm not saying bards are bad, but they're really hard to do well, and you wouldn't want to discourage someone by making someone who wants to play Harry Potter play something else entirely.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-13, 02:17 PM
I'm with the "don't misunderestimate the 12 year olds" bit. My brothers 12 and he understood the casting system fine first time round. He then went on to say prepared casting sucked and he wanted to play a sorceror. I love my little bro sometimes.

Quietus
2007-02-13, 02:34 PM
Definately don't understimate 12 year olds. They've got all the basic math skills needed, and then some. If they're interested, and you have patience, you can teach them the basics of combat within an hour.

I still think that my suggestions above are probably the best option; Fighter, Sorceror, Rogue, and Cleric. 12 year olds should have enough of a head on their shoulders to understand how to make magic work. Start things out by asking them what kind of characters they want to make, and describe the options. Fighters are really good with weapons, like Aragorn. Rogues are theives sneaky and good at breaking into places. Clerics are alright in a fight, but they can also heal people. And Sorcerors aren't good in a fight at all, but they can cast spells to make up for that.

Odds are, you'll have them give you a lot more information than just that - and even if not, you should be able to ask questions and pry more information out of them if need be. I don't think a low-magic setting would be appropriate, however. Having a setting where magic is common makes a new player feel like they're surrounded by this strange new world, and if an enemy is throwing flashy things around, and they can still beat them, that makes them feel more important. It's YOUR job, as a DM, to only throw things at them that they can handle. Go easy on them for the first little while, they're kids.

LotharBot
2007-02-13, 02:40 PM
My wife DM'ed a game for me and 3 of my younger siblings, ages 17, 14, and 11 at the time. (My oldest brother, who just turned 30, joined us for our second session 6 months later.)

A couple things to keep in mind:
- an exotic character might be really fun for the younger ones to play. The 11 year old played a pseudodragon (as the base creature for 2 levels, and then gaining sorcerer levels.) She had an absolute blast moving the origami crane we gave her for her miniature, and later on, casting the occasional spell.

- young kids are very unlikely to be able to figure out "broken" builds, so you don't have to worry too much about giving them accidentally-unbalanced stuff. This means it's OK to give them special powers or cool items. As a bonus, special powers/cool items give them the occasional opportunity to shine.

- kids that age are great at make-believe. Make sure you include LOTS of role-playing out of combat situations. In this case, since everyone is related, they're probably quite experienced at make-believe as a group.

- the older siblings will probably automatically help the younger siblings out. You might have to nudge them into helping more or less.

- I think the key to making a memorable game is creating a setting they'll like and villains they'll want to beat. We used a little town inhabited by centaurs and other forest types (with lots of druids and rangers) as our jumping off point, and had lots of "shiny" rooms in the dungeon we explored -- rooms with walkways over lava, big statues, lots of texture that really captured their imagination.

Spasticteapot
2007-02-13, 03:03 PM
Fair enough. What I'm saying, though, is would he blow large numbers of sleep spells on any given party of 1st level characters, regardless of player age? The answer really ought to be "no". So don't do it for these guys.

True. However, spells like Color Spray and Entangle give a big advantage to casters - if they start using them, it's only fair that the bad guys do as well. (Even the weakest of the weak 0-level Kobold casters can manage to whip up and Entangle, which will promptly trip up most of the melee-combat types and turn them into pincushions full of Kobold arrows.)

I started playing D&D at age 9. At age 10, I had read all - yes, all - of the 2e PHB. (I did skip over some of the spells, but the exact description of Warp Wood is both boring and useless to anyone but Druids with way too many bonus spell slots.)

The campaign I participated in involved low magic, and mostly combat-oriented PCs around 5th-6th level, aside from one 7th level warrior who had the extra EXP simply by virtue of never missing a session. Our opponents usually consisted of massive numbers of goblins and orcs - the trick was simply not letting them overwhelm you. (Great Cleave would have made some of the adventures stupidly easy - Fearless Fred the 7th level fighter had 18/71 strenght (effectively about 20), and an armor class in the mid-20's.)

What I'd like to do is send the PC's on a romp through adventures where the answer is not so much tactics as figuring out the sneaky trick for winning. (This is, after all, Norse mythology). A good example is the story of the family attacked by trolls; they pulled out some meat and heated it, opened a small window, and when the trolls stuck in their heads, they chopped them off with an axe.




- young kids are very unlikely to be able to figure out "broken" builds, so you don't have to worry too much about giving them accidentally-unbalanced stuff. This means it's OK to give them special powers or cool items. As a bonus, special powers/cool items give them the occasional opportunity to shine.

- I think the key to making a memorable game is creating a setting they'll like and villains they'll want to beat. We used a little town inhabited by centaurs and other forest types (with lots of druids and rangers) as our jumping off point, and had lots of "shiny" rooms in the dungeon we explored -- rooms with walkways over lava, big statues, lots of texture that really captured their imagination.

Please consider that these are the kids of a top-notch Java coder. They're likely better at most video games than I am, and as anyone who has played a traditional RPG will tell you, powergaming is key to victory. I can say that at least two of these kids figured out how to hack their Dreamcast to run pirated games - they're no dummies.

Odds are that they'll figure out how to drop baddies by the dozen as soon as possible. Heck, I would'nt be surprised if one of them tried to pull a Pun-Pun.

Matthew
2007-02-13, 06:29 PM
Consider running them through the free to download Dungeons & Dragons Adventures (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b) off the Wizard's Website; most of the low level ones are solid introductions to the game. I don't know whether they have been using Models and Dungeon Tiles, but it might be worth using them for an introduction to 3.x.

Spasticteapot
2007-02-13, 08:37 PM
Consider running them through the free to download Dungeons & Dragons Adventures (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b) off the Wizard's Website; most of the low level ones are solid introductions to the game. I don't know whether they have been using Models and Dungeon Tiles, but it might be worth using them for an introduction to 3.x.

Dungeon tiles? Models? You sound like a WOTC shill. (Note: I still don't like Hasbro.)

I think I'll try and find one of those vinyl dry-erase grids (usually 1cm x 1cm squares) and use whatever I have handy. Pennies make remarkably scale Kobolds, and you can stack 'em one on top of another when you have two in a square. (Let's see D&D minis do that!)

Matthew
2007-02-13, 08:49 PM
Heh. I don't actually own any of the above. The backs of cereal packets are my dungeons and also the source of my counters... (though I have accumulated a number of models over the years and have a few board games that might double as dungeons tiles). I just meant in the generic sense...

LotharBot
2007-02-13, 08:50 PM
Please consider that these are the kids of a top-notch Java coder. They're likely better at most video games than I am, and as anyone who has played a traditional RPG will tell you, powergaming is key to victory. I can say that at least two of these kids figured out how to hack their Dreamcast to run pirated games - they're no dummies.

In my group, the youngest learned to read at age 3 (not "see Bill run", but "please have your identification card ready when you reach the pharmacy counter".) They're not dummies by any means, either. But I suspect your group, like mine, will take their cues from the DM. If you hint that they should powergame, they will, but if you put role-playing first, they'll follow.

NecroPaladin
2007-02-13, 08:55 PM
Most certainly. My younger brother is 12 as well (almost 13), and he leveled his rogue to 10 beautifully; with less effort and/or complaints than the rest of the party, despite the fact that he was usually the one put through the hazards (I understand that traps do give XP... but man, you'd think after a dozen pit traps he'd be crippled or something). Though I'm speaking as one who has always scored a 98th+ percentile IQ for one of my (currently teen) age (not meant to be condescending, just to make a point), I don't think that my smarts are really super-relevant. At least as I see it, intelligence does help, but the do-or-die success of the game depends more on the maturity of the players than on understanding rules to the last letter. Luckily, I am mature, and so are most of the people I play with. Note, "most."

The Valiant Turtle
2007-02-13, 09:40 PM
Well, you have a lot to think about, but the most important question is what will be the most fun for the group (including you). I think I would ask their dad what he thinks they will want to play and what type of campaign they might be interested.

I would present a few barely fleshed out ideas for the campaign (exploring lost ruins, seafaring, uniting the countryside against the bad guys...) and see which ones they like the best. This avoids the Tigger syndrome ("We like anything"... a few sessions pass ... "except that").

Then find out what they want to play. Try to get them to give you as much background as they can (good habit to get into anyway) and then make their characters. I recommend against rolling stats because whoever rolls bad will feel cheated.

I definitely wouldn't start out at level 1, they are just to fragile and have a tougher time doing the heroic deeds that they want to do. Anywhere from leve 3 to 5 is probably a good starting point. If they all want to be the same thing you will probably have a problem, but you can play up just how cool other stuff can be (and as a previous poster pointed out, allowing a cool monster race can be good).

If some of them want to play magic users I would definitely let them. They probably don't want to master the arcane forces that bind the universe together just to put people to sleep (and for that matter, neither does that kobold wizard). We may know that save or die/suck spells are best, but if you were a fledgling wizard, giddy with the acquisition of your first spells, what are you going to choose? I recommend just selecting their spells for them and choosing a good, but not broken set. Maybe you can let them select later spells.

Do consider picking up the Complete Divine for the Favored Soul. It is a spontaneous casting Cleric, with abilities that aren't actually as strong, but are much cooler! I believe they may have a Spontaneous Druid as well (Spirit Shaman?)

Don't be afraid to fudge. If you mis-calculated their ability to handle a particular encounter, find a way to get them out.

Do get feedback every few sessions. Find out what they liked the best and what they liked the least.

Don't be afraid to consult with them. Many problems can be avoided by talking to them.

Ok, time to end this rambling post.

AmoDman
2007-02-13, 09:53 PM
Seriously, give the powergaming potential a rest. BRAND NEW d&d players rarely learn to powergame anywhere near the levels the people hereabouts know how to cheese out REGARDLESS of their age. That being said, yes, if these are videogamers they'll most likely look for ways to do the most damage potential fast and, I'd imagine, like to solve most all problems with a nice slash to the face. That's OK, this sort of mindset really isn't optimal, especially for a Wizard. And even if they realize that, who cares?

Also, though I stand by the above, keeping them at low levels and as little magic as possible WILL be boring for them. I'll bet you they'll feel cheated if you start hacking core abilities. They'll want to accumulate power as fast as they can (XP!). But don't worry about level 10 combat if you're still getting to know their tactical mindsets at level 2. Just go with it.

The above ideas about setting are great. I can almost guaruntee they're not going to be amazing role-players, and probably WILL need either railroading to get them actually going somewhere (aka, not lost on what to do) or railroading to keep them from the classic "Roll to see if I'm getting drunk!" nonesense. Interesting setting and bad guys they WANT to hunt down and beat are critical. I suggest a learning session before actually playing wherein everybody makes a character, maybe even comes up with a history for that character, and you can explain how all the classes work then and there. I agree that the actual PHB is almost necessary...it explains everything nicer than the SRD.

After that, get some opening combat going. Trust me, they'll want to try everything out ASAP.

clarkvalentine
2007-02-13, 10:37 PM
BRAND NEW d&d players rarely learn to powergame anywhere near the levels the people hereabouts know how to cheese out REGARDLESS of their age.

Heck, I'm far from a n00b (been playing RPGs for 25 years now) and I still get taken to the optimization woodshed on a regular basis. It takes a long time to get the hang of that, and then only if you set out to do so.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-02-13, 11:32 PM
Hmmm... I'd say start it out with Fighters, Rogues, and Clerics (Maybe Sorcerors/Bards, too, to teach them about arcane), just for a small trial to see who knows what. A 1 level campaign. Then, after a short deal, to see how everybody works together and who knows what, start a 2nd level campaign. In this one, add Paladins, Sorcerors, Bards, and Barbarians. Maybe Warlocks, too, since they aren't too hard. Let anybody who wants to port over their character from the first campaign, and then run from there. The first campaign should be a quick, pushover sort of deal, just to double check everybody, and maybe act as an eyecatch for the plot. You want to get them higher in level, so they stop being so frail quickly. Levels 4-5 is your ideal range, not too feeble, but not too many options, either.

I second the ideas of giving them all moderately strong magic items, just to ensure that they all feel special. Also, I'll agree on asking them for their wants in a campaign. That's a big thing.
(I'm basing my choices on classes on what I found easy to understand when I first got into it around 15 or so. Rangers, Wizards, and Druids are easy once you get grounded in it, but until then, they're a pain.)