PDA

View Full Version : Optimization [3.5] TWF Disarm build



Sir Chuckles
2014-05-12, 02:26 PM
So, a good while ago, a player of mine made a thread asking for help building a character. He got one response.
He's still asking for more, but is a lazy busy person with finals, so here I am asking for help on his behalf. This is his second non-archer character ever. He's looking for a way to incorporate the Crescent Moon (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/crescent-moon--487/) style feat.
I was underwhelmed by it, but he likes it. He's a big fan of anything that sounds remotely Elven Moon Archer whatever-y. So think of Crescent Moon as your secret ingredient. I'm allowing similar items to qualify for the feat, such a Three-Bladed Daggers and Broad Blade Sword swords.

Guidelines? I've been hurling numbers at them like crazy.
Any race with no more than three words in it. Half-Orc and the like counts as one word.
Templates are ok, as long as you show me where it's from for reference.
50 point buy.
Free +3 tome of whatever.
3,000,000gp buying power, no single item worth more then 750,000gp. Half of what's unspent is cash on hand.
I allow all books. Non-updated 3.0 material is ok after some tweaking where needed. Dragon Mag is good, so long as you refer to the issue number.
Starting level: 25. Go nuts.

Flickerdart
2014-05-12, 05:49 PM
The problem with the feat isn't that it's weak - as with many feat-heavy combat styles, it would be possible to make what it gives pretty without too much difficulty (consider adding Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body and Steal and Strike into the mix - when you hit an opponent with the sword and knife, you get an extra attack in addition to the disarm attempt and they take a -2 on attack rolls, a pretty nice package).

The problem is that disarming is an extremely niche strategy that only really works on Medium or smaller foes that wield one-handed or lighter weapons and don't have locked gauntlets or carry back-ups - a rare type to find in Epic levels, which are rife with magic-users and colossal monsters. As the DM, you're in a position to pander to the player, but you probably don't want to put yourself in a position where a player's character is not very useful against over 90% of the monsters in the game.

In addition, two-weapon fighting is a pretty weak fighting style in general, and Epic makes it even less viable.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-05-12, 06:37 PM
Go something like Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) 4/ Swashbuckler 3, staggering the levels, and then go into Tempest.

Get Improved Weapon Familiarity (CW) and Weapon Focus: Rapier, use an Elven Thinblade and an Elven Lightblade both in RotW early on. Later transition into an Elven Thinblade and dagger for Crescent Moon, Weapon Focus: Rapier counts toward the Thinblade which counts as a Longsword for certain feats so that should work for both qualifying for and using Crescent Moon if your DM is nice. Once you hit Tempest 3 you can retrain or psychic reformation WF: Dagger to something else, since Two-Weapon Versatility should cover that for you.

Pick up Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, and you can take Daring Outlaw to get sneak attack for your Rogue and Swashbuckler levels, then of course Craven will be beneficial. You'll need to get two flaws to have all the feats you need for this, and may even need to Dark Chaos Shuffle your elf martial weapon proficiencies. It's definitely not a powerful character, but you'll at least be useful both in and out of combat.

Edit: Compare that to a Goliath Warblade with a Ranseur, Improved Disarm, and the Disarming Strike maneuver. At ECL 4 (3 with LA buyoff) he gets 17+Str bonus (3 BAB + 4 Improved Disarm + 4 two-handed weapon + 4 size + 2 Ranseur) to disarm, which could even reliably disarm something out of a locked gauntlet. Crescent Moon requires a full attack and multiple hits with TWF penalties and a huge feat investment, whereas this guy can move in and use his maneuver, only needs to hit once, and gets the benefit of a two-handed weapon.

Sir Chuckles
2014-05-12, 08:33 PM
Honestly, I hold back significantly, especially the Colossal creatures and Epic Spellcasters. I've played it out, and a single Wizard 20 can perform a TPKO without taking a scratch, if played "correctly". So I don't throw those type of enemies at them. These are my players that, at 10th level, nearly got completely wiped by a single Gelatinous Cube.
I throw very focused and themed characters with max HP at them. I'm not saying disarm as a whole is going to be pandered to, but when the next encounter is planned to be a Goblin Ninja/Cragtop Archer, Human Barbarian/Vigilante, and Human Cleric/Rogue/Horizon Walker, the first and last focused on a specific weapon, disarming isn't a strictly bad choice. Picking up martial Strikes and Stances later on can easily alleviate the one-trick pony feeling.

Flickerdart
2014-05-12, 09:26 PM
Goblin Ninja/Cragtop Archer
A ranged character; what is he doing even allowing the other guy to close in for full attacks?


Human Barbarian/Vigilante
Perfect candidate for a two-handed weapon, the kind that are tricky to disarm.


Human Cleric/Rogue/Horizon Walker
Horizon Walkers are well known for being mobile, so getting in the requisite two hits might be tough, but this guy is probably the only one in the encounter that actually has any business being disarmed.

Sir Chuckles
2014-05-12, 09:34 PM
A ranged character; what is he doing even allowing the other guy to close in for full attacks?


Perfect candidate for a two-handed weapon, the kind that are tricky to disarm.


Horizon Walkers are well known for being mobile, so getting in the requisite two hits might be tough, but this guy is probably the only one in the encounter that actually has any business being disarmed.

Hey, I pull punches and my players don't notice. If I used them to absolute fullest, the whole party would've been dead at the campaign's inception to the Goblin alone.
And that's not fun for anyone.

Nightraiderx
2014-05-14, 08:31 AM
First things first: I find the lack of warblade disturbing.
I'm going to suggest this, you make a bardblade (bard/warblade with song of the white raven)

You grab feats that boost your IC (song of the heart/ words of creation)
You will need some form of quicken spell, with that you use it to quicken improvisation. (max 1/2 CL to attack/skill check or X lasts rounds per lvl)
You can use improvisation to boost your disarm checks.

Snowflake wardance (rage like state +cha to attack with 1 handed slashing weapons (yes you can dual wield them)

All you need is to beat the attack bonus of your opponent and you are golden. (unlike tripping, which needs another check to beat str/dex)
The elf would work pretty well. grab some elven thinblades (use warblade ability to turn them over to the target x and x) and also grab lightning maces,
and some form of improved crit. You also make those thinblades crystal echoblades for extra sonic damage.
shadowblade works on them if you want to grab assassin's stance, depending if you want to bother with damage that in epic is hard to deal.

There are various items that will improve his offensive and defense capabilities for bard.

After that you don't need much else other then bardic music metamagic (metamagic song works pretty well although it is limited by the max level)
you can grab obscure sonic damage for bardic music using DFI.