OOTS #413- The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up. Sorry about the delay.

[Lord Zentei]

Woo hoo! And a wargaming reference too. :)

[evnafets]

Yeah, I think we've all felt the pain at one time or another.

So lets see, the Troglodytes will be turning the Hobgoblins, while the Lizardmen armed with axes pepper the hobgoblins with arrows.

[rabidaskal]

Thanks! :)

[Vargtass]

Excellent. Not what I expected, but the confusion and last panel was hilarious!

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.
Brilliant.

Egads, the suspense.

[RMS Oceanic]

Tee hee! You've got to love Irony.

Roll on the Battle of Azure City!

[Alfryd]

Though, really, I would be tempted to deploy the high-level paladins in the main battle, given their extreme usefulness against evil opponents. Still, can't be too careful when it comes to TP spells.

[Kesnit]

I see :haley: made her Bluff check and got in the meeting.

[Itdano]

Awesome strip, Giant!


I don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there!

[Tilian]

Wow, I didn't think Azure City's odds would be that bad...

And yeah, you can never get the mini you really want.

[Estelindis]

Cool! :smallbiggrin: It was great to see what kind of defensive plan Hinjo's brewing up - and that wargaming references aren't confined to Erfworld. :smallwink:

But the last panel was priceless - OotS rarely actually makes me laugh (mostly the best jokes make me grin broadly), but this had me in stitches. Just like my bus never comes along when I'm waiting for it... but everyone else I meet says it's the most frequent bus ever... so too the minis that one desires never seem to emerge from one's own booster packs - just everyone else's. :smallamused:

[Nerd_Paladin]

Ironically enough, I'm running my players through The Red Hand of Doom right now and am suffering a similar lack of redundant minis for the upcoming city siege. Azure City should really just devote some of the treasury toward buying singles in bulk online...

[Mr Wizard]

Ah brilliant Comic.

3 to 1 is what many military tacticians say is the minimum for an invasion. Though it sounds like there are very few siege engines.

[Renegade Paladin]

Woo hoo! And a wargaming reference too. :)
Not exactly. It's a reference to how WotC sells miniatures in randomized packs. And you never, ever get what you want.

Hence, I just don't bother and use chess pieces. :smalltongue:

[Alfryd]

I wonder- will the folkks in Azure City have any means of contacting other reserve forces for a vanguard assault?

[Alfryd]

TYPO- panel 4, 'it's make do', not 'make due'.

[sun_tzu]

Holy crap, they've only got 9000 soldiers? This is gonna be tough...

[Shadow of the Sun]

Perfect. Truly Perfect.

[Nerd_Paladin]

Hobgoblins and siege engines are certainly nothing to brush off, but the real threat facing Azure City is Xykon, who is almost assured to anticipate the Sapphire Guard's defensive strategies and counter them in a way which is stunningly simple, brutally effective, and patently hilarious. Xykon is the kind of guy who would have just hit the Gordian Knot with a quick Burning Hands spell. Then tried to turn it's remains into some kind of hemp-based zombie.

[Itdano]

TYPO- panel 4, 'it's make do', not 'make due'.

Agreed. I actually had a post written up about this but decided against saying anything. I'm tired and probably would have come off like a jerk. hehe

[Estelindis]

Also, it's nice that a number of the previously nameless Azurians have been named here: General Chang and Sangwaan, for instance.

[Pvednes]

Hahahahah, Azure City is so screwed.

[Hart av Srednak]

So they're making war preparations in both comics. I just have to love this. No other choice.

They really have miniature game that sells figures in booster bags:smalleek: I first thought that it was pun towards some endless speculation in Erf forums. Well, you learn something new every day.

[dragon95046]

There battle maps look a lot like ours do in most of our games.

[Ted_Stryker]

That was great. Over the past few weeks, one of my friends has just begun his minis collection in earnest through eBay. Very topical....

[dragon95046]

So they're making war preparations in both comics. I just have to love this. No other choice.

They really have miniature game that sells figures in booster bags:smalleek: I first thought that it was pun towards some endless speculation in Erf forums. Well, you learn something new every day.

Yup. Wizards of the Coast puts out a D&D miniatures game. You buy boxes of miniatures that you just pray has something you can really use, because most of the singles end up ridiculously overpriced...kinda like their Magic cards.

[illathid]

I can so relate to this comic. I mean all I wanted was a Horned devil, or maybe an ice devil. I wasn't going to be greedy and hope for a pit fiend... But what do I get? I got 10 giant celestial stag beetles. 10! Thats effin' ridiculous!

[cerealkilr]

yeah i just got to the point where i used those colored glass beads that are normally used for filling vases...

[Flame_Drake]

Please tell me I'm not the only one to realize that the Azure City model looks exactly the freaken same as Helm's Deep?

Great comic Giant.

Drake

[Squall83]

yeah, it begins!!! ^^

[Idris]

After the drama and tragedy of the last few weeks, the return to laugh-out-loud RPing jokes is perfect :smallbiggrin:

Another brilliant strip - how does the Giant keep them coming like this?

Idris

[Flame_Drake]

Not exactly. It's a reference to how WotC sells miniatures in randomized packs. And you never, ever get what you want.

Hence, I just don't bother and use chess pieces. :smalltongue:

Dice and Coins FTW!

Heh, it's so much easier just not to worry about Minis

Drake

[Destro_Yersul]

Anyone else think the blind seer is a reference to Fable? There's a blind female seer in that too, and she wears a similar blindfold.

[dragon95046]

yeah i just got to the point where i used those colored glass beads that are normally used for filling vases...

We used the colored beads that go in the bottoms of fish tanks. Same stuff, different package.

[fractal]

Aren't there other sides that could be attacked from? Also, I think a comment on the lack of catapults was warranted.

[Tilian]

Anyone else think the blind seer is a reference to Fable? There's a blind female seer in that too, and she wears a similar blindfold.


Blind seer types are pretty common. Heck, X-Men has two that I can think of offhand.

[meep]

I think we'll be hearing about a catapult shortage soon enough.

[Flame_Drake]

Aren't there other sides that could be attacked from? Also, I think a comment on the lack of catapults was warranted.
They've got ocean behind them, and assuming that the mountains are actually there, there should be no other way in (or out).

Drake

[Ted_Stryker]

Anyone else think the blind seer is a reference to Fable? There's a blind female seer in that too, and she wears a similar blindfold.
I kind of doubt it. The idea of a blinded seer is older than Jesus.

[Nerd_Paladin]

I can so relate to this comic. I mean all I wanted was a Horned devil, or maybe an ice devil. I wasn't going to be greedy and hope for a pit fiend... But what do I get? I got 10 giant celestial stag beetles. 10! Thats effin' ridiculous!

Stag Beetles are only Uncommons, so that's not completely out of the ordinary (although I've never gotten more than five of a single Uncommon myself, but you probably bought more minis than I ever do). But you should be happy to know that the big bugs aren't the reason you didn't get the devils in question.


Anyone else think the blind seer is a reference to Fable? There's a blind female seer in that too, and she wears a similar blindfold.

Possibly, but the blind seer is a pretty common stock character in myth and modern fantasy.

[Max_Sinister]

Great! So much about the topic "why doesn't the Giant make any more jokes related to RPGs?" :)

[Tilian]

Is anyone else worried that Rich's practice with those crime scenes in Cliffport is going to pay off horrifically once Azure City's wall is breached? Up until recently I didn't think OotS would flirt with getting that dark, but after Shojo's murder(and Cliffport, I guess) I'm not sure what to expect.

[Sampi]

Yup. Wizards of the Coast puts out a D&D miniatures game. You buy boxes of miniatures that you just pray has something you can really use, because most of the singles end up ridiculously overpriced...kinda like their Magic cards.

Hey, if it ain't broken, why fix it? They've already made loads of money off of that concept, now it's just a new target group.

Chess pieces for me, too.

Oh, and a good comic, too, Rich, thanks.

[Nerd_Paladin]

Only single Rares get pricy, you can find loads of Commons for the price of a song. Uncommons can be harder because the screwed up distribution means they inevitably sell out first, but most of the time the cost on the ones that ARE in stock is reasonable (to the degree that paying any amount of money for little pieces of vinyl shaped like monsters and soldiers is reasonable. Ah the madness of fantasy gaming...).

[5tephen]

Good prep... but come on let's get into it.

Oh, and sorry but the editor in me (normally not very reliable) just couldn't help notice:
"...we had to make due"
and
"Micheal Jackson"

[Lord Zentei]

Not exactly. It's a reference to how WotC sells miniatures in randomized packs. And you never, ever get what you want.

Well, that is a wargaming reference of sorts, so pfft. :smalltongue:


Hence, I just don't bother and use chess pieces. :smalltongue:

I tend to use GW miniatures (though they are exorbitant).

Or failing that, plastic toy soldiers. Packed in transparent bags. :smallwink:

[Incendax]

We used MONOPOLY.
The bad NPCs are Hotels.
The good NPCs are Houses.
The Players and BBEGs are Thimbles, Shoes, and everything else.

[Vonriel]

Pfft. Only 3 to 1? Please. Azure City looks like the type of fortress that seventeen old grannies and a mule could hold from invasion whilst simultaneously cooking up a delicious sunday brunch :smallwink:

I'm betting that the hobgoblins are gonna be wall fodder, upon the corpses of which the undead are gonna mount the walls and attack the defenders, a la starship troopers. Also, I'm guessing that once the undead are over the wall, Xykon is gonna make a metric buttload of hobgoblin zombies. Sure, they can't fly, but they do make for some very fun lawn ornaments. Oh, and you can't rule out Xykon's ability to blow a hole in the wall at some point creating a monumental breach through which his troops can pour through. Siege engines? He don't need no stinkin' siege engines!

And yeah, I was also expecting a comment on the ill timing of the alchemists' fired catapults.

[The Glitter Ninja]

I don't know what figure packs he's specifically talking about, but that was hysterical. 30 gps for a half-dragon sorcerer? Outrageous!

[Mordaedil]

Hilarious. I got a new quote too.

[Charity322]

TYPO- panel 4, 'it's make do', not 'make due'.

Typos are never fixed unless they're practically the whole sentence anyway, not even for the book.

[Anthea]

Oh yeah. How I missed those Haley-comments over her scrambled-speech-time. That strip had me laughing several times. Thanks ;)

[Professor Tanhauser]

I've bought a share of miniatures over the ages, and I can't believe how gamers today tolerate these sealed packs that give them no choice over what they get, and those pre-painted ones suck compared to an even half-assed paintjob.


Ive never bought minis without knowing what I was getting, never will.

BTW, what was with halley asking for that one miniature. Has she forgotten she's a THIEF???

[Bakta]

Trading a Thog in drag, complete with whip, for a half dragon sorcerer

[fractal]

BTW, what was with halley asking for that one miniature. Has she forgotten she's a THIEF???
Sleight of Hand is one approach, Diplomacy is another tactic, perhaps a bit wiser when dealing with the friendly high-level Paladin who rules the city.

[Adeptus]

BTW, what was with halley asking for that one miniature. Has she forgotten she's a THIEF???

Shame on you, that's class profiling. Haley's a rogue.

Azure city should really invest some funds in cardhaus or one like it.

[unstattedCommoner]

Awesome strip, Giant!

I don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there


still trying not to laugh...


So THAT's :miko:'s problem: she thinks she's a PC!



:xykon: We will attack here, it seems to be the weakest point in the defences.
:redcloak: Won't the PCs be stationed there, thus making it in fact the strongest point?
:xykon: Good point. I don't want to meet them before the final showdown in front of the Gate. The main assault will go in where the PCs aren't.
Have one - no, two thousand hobgoblins assault the PCs' position as a diversion.
:redcloak: Won't that be a suicide mission?
:xykon: Yes, so we may as well take advantage. Follow them up with some clerics; the second wave will consist of two thousand undead, plus reinforcements if the first wave actually kills anyone. Plus, in the likely scenario that the PCs are heading for another gate, we may actually break through.

[orcmonk89]

LOL that was great. I share Hinjo's pain...

[Vargtass]

Please tell me I'm not the only one to realize that the Azure City model looks exactly the freaken same as Helm's Deep?

Great comic Giant.

Drake

I don't see them as identical at all (assuming you refered to Helm's Deep in the Peter Jackson movie). No ramp, completely different castle, different terrain approach. The only similarity is the generic wall between two steep mountain sides.

I agree that the comic was great though!

[Grunjon]

I'm sitting here reading through this comic and I keep thinking to myself, "Yeah, Rich, that's just about right!" He just nails it, doesn't he? All those friggin' randomized packs are *exactly* like this. Magic Cards. Baseball cards. Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html).

[Castamir]

Please tell me I'm not the only one to realize that the Azure City model looks exactly the freaken same as Helm's Deep?
Well, where do you think Hinjo got the model from? :smallbiggrin:
Making one from scratch would take too long for the time they got...


But really... basing ANYTHING on that dumb Peter Jackson guy is a travesty. He really should get a court order to read the LotR at least once, for the first time in his life.

[delboy]

LMAO once again fantastic :D

[Carteeg_Struve]

At least they were able to get a nice fold-together cardboard terrain that looked something like Azure City. Considering how it was going, I wouldn't had been surprised if they had to use some empty coffee cans, a soda bottle, the DM screens, and a Castle Grayskull playset. :smallsmile:

[Roderick_BR]

Yeah, I think we've all felt the pain at one time or another.

So lets see, the Troglodytes will be turning the Hobgoblins, while the Lizardmen armed with axes pepper the hobgoblins with arrows.
LOL! That sums up everything, I guess :smalltongue:

@Alfryd: You heard what Lord Hinjo said: He'll keep the lower level paladins to protect the citizens inside the city's walls, and the higher level paladins will be the last line of defense in case Xykon manages to invade the tower.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa

Ooooh god... it´s so funny:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Duke of URL]

Great job mixing plot with the miniatures jokes.

[Akaziel]

Great comic. I LOL'd.

[potatocubed]

That's the best strip yet. There's, like, a joke in every panel! Awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[Eldhrin]

This is the second time I remember that the Giant has poked fun at the randomised booster pack idea of commerce. It's a good money spinner of course, but it's frankly insulting to the customers.

The other one was where V admits that the reason s/he doesn't have Fly is because when s/he tried to buy one back in town they were only selling randomised spell booster packs.

Actually if I recall correctly, in Book #1 Rich says that a lack of miniatures is pretty much the genesis of the art style for Order of the Stick, as he turned his predeliction for doodling stick figures into a set of little card people for a game he was running. This goes right back to the roots of the thing!

Everything else in the comic was fantastic. I can't wait to see how the battle might pan out. I'm pretty sure V could do some serious damage to the hobgoblins, but only by exhausting all his/her spells per day, and then what?

Still, imagine casting Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion into the middle of that army :-)

[Archaicwonder]

Yay, miniature gaming! Hinjo should invest in the very expensive, but at least packaged in something other than boosters Games Workshop line of miniatures.

[Krytha]

Oh GOD randomized packs kill me (and my wallet). And why does Mephisto keep dropping useless stuff?

[Giscard76]

Only single Rares get pricy, you can find loads of Commons for the price of a song. Uncommons can be harder because the screwed up distribution means they inevitably sell out first, but most of the time the cost on the ones that ARE in stock is reasonable (to the degree that paying any amount of money for little pieces of vinyl shaped like monsters and soldiers is reasonable. Ah the madness of fantasy gaming...).

Yes as a friend of mine once said... "some times the arms race is a real bitch" (hope thats ok here... Haley uses the word all the time so I assume it is.

[Cifer]

Very nice one. Less philosophical, deep or dark (although WotC company politics may be all three...), but definitely rich in gags.

So the axe-wielding lizardfolk will cover the backs of the kobolds and Yuan'Ti fighting against the bugbears while the troglodytes turn bugbears (possibly with their stench), supervised by their half-dragon sorcerer chief and the noble fiendish boars are the last line of defense.
Right.

Who wants to bet Xykon has to demonstrate his battle plans using modrons and genies?


To come back to the tactical stuff: In general, you indeed need a 3:1 superiority in numbers to do a siege, though in D&D, that relies pretty much on your kind of troops - while zombies are bad in a melee, they take about three times as many arrows as a standard guy of their HP because of their DR. And, there are the PCs, other mid-level spellcasters, Xykon, Redcloak and possibly the MitD as absolute wildcards. A great-cleaving Roy might have a devastating effect towards some melee-hordes, but Xykon could certainly bring down the fortress' walls all by himself.

[Smoke_Rulz]

I really don't post enough...

Fantastic comic, Rich. The miniatures joke was hilarious (especially the very last panel), and I'm sure we all have had similar problems in our D&D games, cause I know have. And yeah, I can see that model is Helm's Deep. :D Another great reference.

[Caelestion]

Absolutely brilliant. I love it! :smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

Edit: I believe General Chang is a reference to the Klingon general in Star Trek VI.

[Blood]

Good plot advancement, and planning on Hinjo's part, but for once the jokes were weak.

[Xenon]

a perfect explination of why i wont waste money on those minitures boxes! (god help us in GW ever gets the idea)

also, i have sympathy for the lizard men. :)

[Kilbia]

This was gold! It was a little odd that all of the humor came out of something that isn't actually related to OotS (gaming miniature woes), but it was a neat way to make the strategy session interesting.

And I totally feel their pain on the miniatures. I would be absolutely ecstatic if Hasbro would come out with Living Greyhawk regional booster packs. Oh, you're in the BK? Here, have tons of incorporeal undead; sorry, Morginstaler is sold separately.

[Dausuul]

1 to 3 is pretty good odds for Azure City, really.

Of course, if I were Hinjo, I'd spend about five minutes planning the conventional defense of the city, and the next twelve hours trying to figure out what Xykon has up his sleeve. He's a lich sorceror--you know he's not going to bother with conventional strategy.

[Ronald_saveloy]

General Chang? Like that guy in Star Trek 6?

G. Chang: Once more to the breach, dear friends, once more!
Or close the wall up with our Azzures dead!

(Ok, from the position of the battle field, that would rather be lines for Xykon.)

[Giscard76]

Very nice one. Less philosophical, deep or dark (although WotC company politics may be all three...), but definitely rich in gags.

So the axe-wielding lizardfolk will cover the backs of the kobolds and Yuan'Ti fighting against the bugbears while the troglodytes turn bugbears (possibly with their stench), supervised by their half-dragon sorcerer chief and the noble fiendish boars are the last line of defense.
Right.

Who wants to bet Xykon has to demonstrate his battle plans using modrons and genies?


To come back to the tactical stuff: In general, you indeed need a 3:1 superiority in numbers to do a siege, though in D&D, that relies pretty much on your kind of troops - while zombies are bad in a melee, they take about three times as many arrows as a standard guy of their HP because of their DR. And, there are the PCs, other mid-level spellcasters, Xykon, Redcloak and possibly the MitD as absolute wildcards. A great-cleaving Roy might have a devastating effect towards some melee-hordes, but Xykon could certainly bring down the fortress' walls all by himself.


And really you want a 4 to 1 superiority in order to be sure of victory (because you need a covering force). Azure city should do ok given the numbers in a straight fight. They have the ocean to there back so they can't be starved out and can't be cut off (I don't think Xyclon has a navy). Still Magic is a big wild card as are the flying troops since they negate the walls. Here is another big wild card in Sieges… the relief column. If the Azure city has allies it can call on to bail them out that changes every thing, this is why you need a covering force if your besieging a city the biggest danger is another army coming up behind you.

[Fenix]

Supercool strip filled with ye olde OOTS fun :D

[Yrogerg]

Not exactly. It's a reference to how WotC sells miniatures in randomized packs. And you never, ever get what you want.

Hence, I just don't bother and use chess pieces. :smalltongue:

My former DM used to print his own from photoshop. Of course, this really just meant that when he ran into this problem, it was his own damn fault: One time, he decided to replace all of our characters/character sheets/minis with My Little Pony d20 for April Fool's day, only to realize that he forgot to bring the *actual* minis. with him that day. So, for that entire session, all of our enemies looked like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/Icespectra/College%20Life/random%20stuff/grundle.gif

[Bozidar]

We don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there.. BRILLIANT

[Nightfall]

We don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there.. BRILLIANT

Yup...it's my new favorite line! Hee-hee!:smallbiggrin:

[Fingolfin]

Oh common :smallbiggrin: I've never seen a so serious battle plan presented in such a funny way. Fantastic. :smallsmile:

[Gentlemaniac]

Good job Giant, solid as always. Being a CCG player (Call of Cthulhu, not M:tG), I can feel the pain. But for roleplaying miniatures I prefer GW's Lord of the Rings line, since I can get exactly what I want in decent numbers, and the selection of 24-model plastic kits is becoming very good. The orcs and goblins, in particular, are great. Then again, I enjoy the painting.

[EntilZha]

LOL!! Booster packs.

[EntilZha]

General Chang? Like that guy in Star Trek 6?

G. Chang: Once more to the breach, dear friends, once more!
Or close the wall up with our Azzures dead!

(Ok, from the position of the battle field, that would rather be lines for Xykon.)

If he could fire fireballs from an invisible siege engine that didn't need to become visible to fire them, it'd increase Azure City's chances for survival. :smallbiggrin:

[Willahad]

Funny. We have the same problem with miniatures

[jttm80]

Yep. This completely mirrors my Dreamblade experience.
:smallmad:

[TheAnimal]

Shame on you, that's class profiling. Haley's a rogue.

Not to mention that she is chaotic good...ish.:smallwink:

[Lord Zentei]

Good job Giant, solid as always. Being a CCG player (Call of Cthulhu, not M:tG), I can feel the pain. But for roleplaying miniatures I prefer GW's Lord of the Rings line, since I can get exactly what I want in decent numbers, and the selection of 24-model plastic kits is becoming very good. The orcs and goblins, in particular, are great. Then again, I enjoy the painting.

Same here. :smallwink: And that's why I started this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34707) yesterday. </shameless plug>

Alas, it seems not to have garnered much interest. :(

[Alysar]

Is the comic title supposed to be a reference to Back To The Future?

There was a slight running gag (in parts I and III) where a model of the town wasn't to scale.

[KIDS]

I honestly say, you outdid yourself. Certainly one of the best comics ever!
"No sir, the bugbears are hobgoblins. The hobgoblins are zombies"

AWESOME! Keep up the great work!

[Retief]

Love it. I don't normally laugh at the comics, but the last pane startled a laugh from me.:smallbiggrin:

[gofunkiertti]

In most battles in past times it could take anywhere from 3 to 1 up to 10 to 1 odds to break a seige. While I suspect a city would be easier a castle requires either lots of seige, trappers(tunnelers) and/or traitor(s) to break it with anything less than 10 to 1 odds.
Of course this doesn't take into account magic and I suspect Xykon can pull out something truly nasty. (such as zombifying the dead city defenders to cause havoc behind enemy lines). I hope the city's graveyards are defended as well because skeletal warriors would be a a bitch to kill without enchanted weapons. Also Xykon could use his powers to either break a hole in the wall or simply to fly over them with a strike force while everyones distracted and go straight for the gate.

[Lord Zentei]

Also Xykon could use his powers to either break a hole in the wall or simply to fly over them with a strike force while everyones distracted and go straight for the gate.

Considering his callous MO to date, I imagine that he would gladly leave the army to its fate to do something precisely like that.

[malakim2099]

Yep. This completely mirrors my Dreamblade experience.
:smallmad:

I'm a Clixing rebel, what can I say. :smalltongue:

Love the strip! Although...

Xykon could care less about conquering the city, the only reason he wants the city is because that's where the GATE is, and he'll sacrifice pretty much everyone to get to the gate itself. So that could change the tactics around somewhat.

[CelestialStick]

I haven't even finished reading strip yet but when I got to the part about searching through booster packs I laughed so hard I just had to come and post about it! Take that, Wizards--you and your stupid booster packs! :smallbiggrin:

[TheAnimal]

The other one was where V admits that the reason s/he doesn't have Fly is because when s/he tried to buy one back in town they were only selling randomised spell booster packs.
I absolutely hated that when I was playing MTG.
Although we used pretty random decks anyway, I was always peeved to get yet another Wall of Wood or Gray Ogre.
Boy, would I have been furious if I had tried to construct a themed or even coloured deck... :smallannoyed:

[CelestialStick]

I love it:

Are those the hobgoblins down there?

No sir. The bugbears are the hobgoblins. The hobgoblins are the zombies! :smallbiggrin:

[xyzchyx]

Oh yeah... this is one of my biggest beefs with the way WotC is doing D&D... going the "collectibles" route.

[princelian]

I believe General Chang's name is a coincidence, or he'd have had an eyepatch (at least) and a predeliction for Shakespearean prose. (Notice there's a female general with an eyepatch, btw.)

[CelestialStick]

Oh man! A laugh out loud per every frame! At least one per frame! There are so many that I can't even begin to type them all. Although no strip can compete with The Battle of the Movie Theater Snackfoods, this is one of the best evah! :smallcool:

[Woot Spitum]

I have a new favorite comic. It was definately time for some miniatures jokes. In my group, we have a lot of miniatures, yet it seems like a rare event when we actually use a miniature to represent what it really was meant to represent. We have this one half-elf hexblade that we end up using for everything (medium, male, light-armored humanoid; we use so many different types, but have only one miniature that's even close).

[CelestialStick]

Yeah, I think we've all felt the pain at one time or another.

So lets see, the Troglodytes will be turning the Hobgoblins, while the Lizardmen armed with axes pepper the hobgoblins with arrows.

I completely forgot! Just this past Sunday I used a wemic and a weretiger in hybrid for to represent horned devils, and a large red dragon to represent a pit fiend (actually not a bad choice at all.) :smallbiggrin:

[Teacher]

Keep buying those booster packs! The more you buy, the better my husband's Spring Bonus (he works for Hasbro).

I can't believe no one has mentioned this...

Roy's sword will probably be busy slaying all of those undead minions.

[CelestialStick]

Not exactly. It's a reference to how WotC sells miniatures in randomized packs. And you never, ever get what you want.

Hence, I just don't bother and use chess pieces. :smalltongue:

If I have a lot of badguys, I used to use dice. The nice are neat because I can reference their numbers to the numbers on my pad of paper. Kobolds 1-6 use d6s, kobolds 7-8 use d8s, etc. Recently though I bought a product that has sheets of different colored one-inch cardboard squares the Amarillo Design Bureau puts them out under the name Prototype Kit Beta. For medium and small creatures I've been using them and just numbering them. For large numbers of large creatures, like a maug army, I cut out 2-inch squares from handy notebook paper. I did buy one maug figure, but I wasn't going to buy 103 of them--especially when I can't number them. :smallbiggrin:

[Alysar]

I believe General Chang's name is a coincidence, or he'd have had an eyepatch (at least) and a predeliction for Shakespearean prose. (Notice there's a female general with an eyepatch, btw.)

I don't think that's a female (no protrusions of the chestal area)

[DarkPhilosopher]

What a comic... I didn't saw that coming. People have been complaining about the "puns fillers", but now there's plot advancement and a great joke-weaving.

[AtomicKitKat]

I've toyed(haha) with the idea of getting a Succubus and a Marilith mini myself, but I'm scared of getting 20 dretches or a dozen Nalfeshnee(YECH!). Maybe I'll just buy them off e-Bay once I get a stable job. :/

[Tadpole]

Typos are never fixed unless they're practically the whole sentence anyway, not even for the book.

I wonder why not?

[chibibar]

hehe... when I saw the castle I thought Rich was going to use "Back to the Future" reference.. "I'm sorry it is not upto scale...." anyways love Murphy's law effect...

Yea I feel for them.

[Pantler]

It could've been worse, you know. They could've been simulating the situation with M:tG :smallsmile:

It's good to see Giant still has a whole deck of aces up his sleeve :smallbiggrin:

Oh, can someone explain why the 3rd level matters so much turning-wise?

[Argus]

I was just wondering whether anyone besides me remembers http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2003-11-20

[Fenix]

seems like we are going to have siege both in the OOTS and Erfworld at the same time :)

[TBone]

Anyone else think the blind seer is a reference to Fable? There's a blind female seer in that too, and she wears a similar blindfold.

DIE ENEMY! :smallfurious:

[Caractacus]

Nice!

I have to say that I'm happy I've never indulged in collectibles as a hobby... it must get v.frustrating! :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

And really you want a 4 to 1 superiority in order to be sure of victory (because you need a covering force). Azure city should do ok given the numbers in a straight fight. They have the ocean to there back so they can't be starved out and can't be cut off (I don't think Xyclon has a navy). Still Magic is a big wild card as are the flying troops since they negate the walls. Here is another big wild card in Sieges… the relief column. If the Azure city has allies it can call on to bail them out that changes every thing, this is why you need a covering force if your besieging a city the biggest danger is another army coming up behind you.Ignoring magic and flight (a silly thing to do, but mass armies and walled castles built like they were in our world are a silly thing in the first place in D&D land). If Xykon goes for a straight assault he needs closer to 10:1 odds, for a siege or prepared assault he needs about 3:1 which he has. Given his demonstrated patience and the enormous concern he and redcloak show for their subordinates I think we know which will be tried.

Magic and flight substantially reduce the value of the walls, so something less than 3:1 or 10:1 is needed. How much less? Who cares?

It's irrelevant since Xykon isn't depending on the Hobgoblin assualt anyway, the whole point to letting Miko go was to find the gate so someone could get to it while the battle rages. The 30,000 Hobgoblins and masses of undead are all a diversion. I don't expect Xykon to stick arround for the diversion, hence I expect the Hobgoblins to be toast. Instead the PCs will somehow foil Xykon and he will head for Girard's gate, we know he goes there, and storytelling logic says we are in for the grand tour of all 5 gates.

[Dene]

Seeing the confusion over this makes me glad my RP group just uses coloured magnets for the PCs and numbered cardboard squares for the enemies- and that we're rarely fighting more than one type of enemy unless it's a group of class-levelled humans which are usually memorable enough for us not to need reminding which is which.

[kpenguin]

What about the ninjas? We know that there ARE ninjas in Azure City. Ninjas aren't that good on the battlefield, but excellent in acouting and guerilla warfare. I wonder why Hinjo hasn't mentioned ninjas...

[Iranon]

Another nitpick... hobbo's should be hobbos.

Conventional strategy is just so much background noise where high-level characters are involved, especially if the goal isn't full conquest. There is probably no need for a serious, drawn-out siege.

If Xykon actually bothered formulating a strategy, having undead sneaking into the city from the sea would force the defenders to spread their resources fairly thin. Flying zombies should also be a significant asset since they shrug off arrows quite easily.
He could keep the defenders off-balance, then use his considerable magical might to prepare a massive breakthrough at a weak spot.

[Caractacus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeptus http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2011434#post2011434)
Shame on you, that's class profiling. Haley's a rogue.



Not to mention that she is chaotic good...ish.:smallwink:

[Just so we can get all the Finland-resident Oots-fans into one box... :smalltongue: ]

Actually, it now means that if she doesn't get given the miniature and it subsequently goes missing, she may have very slightly blown her cover... :smallamused:

[CelestialStick]

Another nitpick... hobbo's should be hobbos.

Or better, yet, as it occured to me while reading the strip, just plain "hobs."

[Aerysil]

When I first saw the diviner, I was really expecting her to trip over something.

Completing sentences with no sense of direction works :)

[Shalbatana]

Nice comic. Too true, too true.

[chibibar]

I don't have my books at work, but if I remember from old D&D (before 3.0) the level of cleric determines the success rate of turning. the higher the level the higher undead type they can turn (or destroy)

Xykon is just using the army as diversionary tactics.. his main goal is to real the gate :)

[CelestialStick]

I don't have my books at work, but if I remember from old D&D (before 3.0) the level of cleric determines the success rate of turning. the higher the level the higher undead type they can turn (or destroy)

Xykon is just using the army as diversionary tactics.. his main goal is to real the gate :)

It still works that way.

[dragongirl13]

Hmm... the OotS is reenacting what happens whenever I get a box of miniatures. Or at least what happened with my first box of miniatures. My second was only mostly evil creatures.

[General_Ghoul]

“Look, forget about the zombies, they don’t worry me…ghouls do. One ghoul can paralyze a dozen 1st level fighters over the course of a battle. And we think they have a few hundred ghouls.”

And those ghouls might have a leader....



The discussion on troop numbers is interesting, but remember that Xylon's hobgoblins numbers should be doubled. When they die in battle, make new zombies.

[mdvk1012]

Is the comic title supposed to be a reference to Back To The Future?

There was a slight running gag (in parts I and III) where a model of the town wasn't to scale.

IMO, definately a pun on "Back to the Future".

[mdvk1012]

If I have a lot of badguys, I used to use dice. The nice are neat because I can reference their numbers to the numbers on my pad of paper. Kobolds 1-6 use d6s, kobolds 7-8 use d8s, etc.

I used dice as well, but I used the numbers on the dice to represent their HPs.

[malakim2099]

What about the ninjas? We know that there ARE ninjas in Azure City. Ninjas aren't that good on the battlefield, but excellent in acouting and guerilla warfare. I wonder why Hinjo hasn't mentioned ninjas...

Typically, assuming Azure City is based in Feudal Japan (likely), there are two forms of warfare. The "High" Warfare that is fought on the battlefield, home of the samurai/paladins and foot soldiers, and the "Low" Warfare that is guerilla style combat of assassination and sabotage. Ninjas would only really be used in "Low" warfare, so Hinjo wouldn't even really consider using them, being samurai.

However, it might also be a reserve force for recon and sabotage, that he (or the Giant) haven't mentioned yet. Or as an emergency force should the walls actually be breached. With a paladin conducting the battle plans, I can't imagine that "Low" warfare would be something they would be aiming for.

Either that or they didn't have enough lemure minis to represent the ninjas.

[Elliot Kane]

Love it. Really funny :)

A D&D version of Heroclix, yet! :D

[Xilehxt]

Very nice comic. I enjoyed it throughly. I know, those darn miniatures, never give what I want!

Barring magic and supernatural stuff, defensive fortifications basically triple the defending side's soldiers. So it's about a 27000 vs 30000 fight. But then, being DnD, magic comes into play, but really, Azure city should be better off, since they've got tons of high level characters and the adventurers while the only significant power on Xykon's side should be Xykon and Redcloak....and MitD if Xykon decides to reveal him.

[Lord Zentei]

Another nitpick... hobbo's should be hobbos.

Conventional strategy is just so much background noise where high-level characters are involved, especially if the goal isn't full conquest. There is probably no need for a serious, drawn-out siege.

That may be true to an extent, but recall that the numbers of hobgoblins is into the tens of thousands. There is only so much even high level characters can do against that for long.

Besides, controlling the city by force of arms gives Xykon added leeway. If he does not control it, he might well be thwarted again by a strategic team.

Then there is the issue of possible reinforcements breaking the seige: O-Chul's dialogue implies that there are in fact additional troops, only not within immediate reach. A population of half a million potential zombies would make the control of the city, and hence the gate, easier to maintain
long enough to channel the Snarl.

[pendell]

Solid comic. Effective use of humor to lighten an otherwise serious panel. Last panel with the lizards takes the cake -- good stuff!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cifer]

@Malakim
Or it would just be considered impolite to mention their existence and availability.


The discussion on troop numbers is interesting, but remember that Xylon's hobgoblins numbers should be doubled. When they die in battle, make new zombies.

I wouldn't be too sure of that - to our knowledge, the hobgoblins are all fighters, so the only high-level characters capable of animating would be Xykon and Redcloak, which may need their spellslots for more important stuff.


I don't have my books at work, but if I remember from old D&D (before 3.0) the level of cleric determines the success rate of turning. the higher the level the higher undead type they can turn (or destroy)
Ghouls have two hit dice, +2 for turn resistance. Thus, a level 4 cleric could turn one with an average turn roll while a low-level one would need a bit of luck on his turn.
Further, being fourth level means being two times the HD of a hobgoblin zombie which lacks turn resistance - instant ashes.

[Wizard_Tom]

Does no one buy Reaper Minis? You can get almost exactly what you want (and it's easy enough to mod minis) and they cost about 4 bucks each.

[Gyron]

Helms De...I mean Azure City looks fairly defensible. Unless it has a sewer drain, then we can always hope some crazy geezer brings the rest of the paladins(O-chul did say they were many, but only 100 currently presiding in the city).

[CelestialStick]

Does no one buy Reaper Minis? You can get almost exactly what you want (and it's easy enough to mod minis) and they cost about 4 bucks each.

I have a few old ones that I bought years ago used. They're not really sto scale though so if I buy knew ones I tend to buy the Wizards ones--online and individually. I've never bought a booster pack.

[Uzraid]

No wonder this one was late. It's got to have one of the densest concentrations of dialogue ever. Just thinking about the layout makes my head hurt.

Thanks for another good one, Giant.

U

[kerberos]

What about the ninjas? We know that there ARE ninjas in Azure City. Ninjas aren't that good on the battlefield, but excellent in acouting and guerilla warfare. I wonder why Hinjo hasn't mentioned ninjas...
Unfortunatly all ninjas in the City are currently busy planning how to facilitate some rapid dynastic turnover.

[Hushdawg]

Please tell me I'm not the only one to realize that the Azure City model looks exactly the freaken same as Helm's Deep?

Great comic Giant.

Drake

Nope... thought the exact same thing...

Was all prepared to hop into the forum and say "I wonder who will ride in at first light to save thier sorry butts?" and then.. here you go... stealin' the flava from my kool-aid.

:D

[V Junior]

We're gonna see somthin' bad soon. The hobgoblins have DR, so we'll need the trogs in the army, AS WELL AS along the wall. The bugbears will overwhelm the city, while the goblin riding the dragon will head to the gate!

Like my joke? (Xykon as a goblin is too kewl!)

[Jhaden]

LMAO... this should go down as a classic OOTS. Much of what drew my interest in your strips was the funny way you incorporated your fun-loving characters and story with actual D&D references. This epitomizes all OOTS goodness. Great job Rich!!

[zibeck]

The lizardfolk with the human archers takes the cake!

[atteSmythe]

Holy joke density, batman!

Hilarious. I can't tell you how many times I've had Haley's problem with misremembering what icon/symbol/mini was substituted for what actual opponent.

[Medri]

I think my favorite part is the "I don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there." That's great. Nothing like knowing your not only expendable, but expected to be expended. Poor low level clerics. :)

[Dausuul]

Very nice comic. I enjoyed it throughly. I know, those darn miniatures, never give what I want!

Barring magic and supernatural stuff, defensive fortifications basically triple the defending side's soldiers. So it's about a 27000 vs 30000 fight. But then, being DnD, magic comes into play, but really, Azure city should be better off, since they've got tons of high level characters and the adventurers while the only significant power on Xykon's side should be Xykon and Redcloak....and MitD if Xykon decides to reveal him.

Depends on what level Xykon and Redcloak are (and possibly MitD). Miko was the highest-level paladin in the Sapphire Guard--or so we presume--and Roy was able to thrash her pretty easily, which means she can't be more than 2-3 levels above him unless she's really seriously un-optimized. The OotS seems to hover pretty consistently around 12th level; as far as I know, neither V nor Durkon has yet busted out a spell higher than 6th level, though V did learn Power Word Blind.

I'd guess Azure City has one 13th-level cleric (the guy who can cast Resurrect), one 9th-to-10th-level wizard (the guy who can cast Teleport, who may or may not have been Resurrected yet), and a bunch of paladins in the 5-12 range. On the other hand, Xykon may well be in the area of 17-20... not to mention whatever weird rules jiu-jitsu he used to allow himself to control that many Hit Dice of undead.

[Shattersnap]

I wish I had a half dragon sorceror figurine...

[AznEclipse]

Reaper Miniatures are pretty decent, they will usually have anything you're looking for (or close enough). RPGShop, in particular. Man, i gotta stop going to that site. I keep buying things.

[ikanreed]

I wish I had a half dragon sorceror figurine...

And I wish I had 30 gold peices.

[Paramajic]

Oh the pain of the collectable miniature sold in randomized booster packs. Nothing :xykon: can do compares to that horror.

and of course best line of the strip,

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif I don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there.

[the_tick_rules]

i don't collect minitaures but still a good strip.

[Rask]

If I were Xycon, I would already be in the city right now, before the battle begins. It's like the stage magician who's already behind the audience when they think he's still trying to get out of the locked box in front of them.

He could have the added advantage of getting in before the gates are sealed.

[Alysar]

Does no one buy Reaper Minis? You can get almost exactly what you want (and it's easy enough to mod minis) and they cost about 4 bucks each.

Oh, sure, mister "I have to know exactly what I'm getting" :smallbiggrin:

[Tharj TreeSmiter]

HAHA LOL thank you rich for pointing out how lame and terrible the "collectible" idea is. A game should be bought in one box and be played, they only reason they created the collectable was to make people spend FAR FAR too much on a game. There is absolutely no good reason that to have random stuff in a box except to dupe people into spending fortunes on them.

[Jewel Thief]

True dat.

Awesome comic, today! I really liked the new material (this time about minis)

[eilandesq]

Depends on what level Xykon and Redcloak are (and possibly MitD). Miko was the highest-level paladin in the Sapphire Guard--or so we presume--and Roy was able to thrash her pretty easily, which means she can't be more than 2-3 levels above him unless she's really seriously un-optimized. The OotS seems to hover pretty consistently around 12th level; as far as I know, neither V nor Durkon has yet busted out a spell higher than 6th level, though V did learn Power Word Blind.

I'd guess Azure City has one 13th-level cleric (the guy who can cast Resurrect), one 9th-to-10th-level wizard (the guy who can cast Teleport, who may or may not have been Resurrected yet), and a bunch of paladins in the 5-12 range. On the other hand, Xykon may well be in the area of 17-20... not to mention whatever weird rules jiu-jitsu he used to allow himself to control that many Hit Dice of undead.

That wizard is more like 18th or 19th level--he teleported the entire OotS twice, making him a minimum of 18th level (6 additional persons when t-porting) unless he's got some non-standard feat or prestige class. Of course, a wizard generally doesn't have the raw blasting power of a sorcerer of similar level (Xykon is at least 18th level, having used Meteor Swarm in one of the bonus comics in No Cure For The Paladin Blues, but that's still a lot of firepower if he's got his spell slots committed to combat magic. I suspect that there are more than a couple of 13+ level clerics around, from the way Lord Shojo was talking--meaning that the defenders would almost certainly have the edge in spellpower, without even considering the OotS. V used a 7th level spell (grasping hand) in #397, and therefore is at least a 13th level evoker--plenty of firepower to be had there, and Durkon will have some new tricks as well assuming he's also 13th level.

[CelestialStick]

Reaper Miniatures are pretty decent, they will usually have anything you're looking for (or close enough). RPGShop, in particular. Man, i gotta stop going to that site. I keep buying things.

Aren't they rough, dull gray metal (lead) figures that people file down and paint?

[Couatl]

... one 9th-to-10th-level wizard (the guy who can cast Teleport, who may or may not have been Resurrected yet)....


Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the guy that casted the Teleport an expendable resourse? And as such he surely has (or had) many fellows levels equal to his or higher. If he hadn't Lord Shojo woudn't give him to :roy: such easily...

[Electric_Monkey]

Now we've got the minatures gaming and city defence in OOTS, I can't help but wonder whether Rich and Rob agreed the timings of the comics so they would coincide.

[atteSmythe]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the guy that casted the Teleport an expendable resourse? And as such he surely has (or had) many fellows levels equal to his or higher. If he hadn't Lord Shojo woudn't give him to :roy: such easily...
I don't think he was. Shojo repeatedly referred to him as his "best wizard."

[CelestialStick]

And I wish I had 30 gold peices.

In D&D a coin weighs about 1/3 of an ounce, so with 30 gp you have about 10 ounces. Right now, at 1:45 PM EST gold is selling in NY for $663.20/ounce. So your 30 gold pieces are worth about $6632. So if you have that much money, you have the equivalent of 30 gold pieces. You could even go out and buy gold coins with that money (although the world's various gold coins have different weights so you might not end up with 30 if you spent the entire $6632). :smallsmile:

[Couatl]

I don't think he was. Shojo repeatedly referred to him as his "best wizard."

Well, yes you're right technically. But I think that when Lord Shojo was playing that "puppet theater" with his skeleton he was only joking that the dead guy was his best wizard. On the other hand the libraries in the city contain pretty powerful spells like Power Word Blind as we have seen, and that means the chances of having more high level wizards are growing ;)

But mabye we should listen to Master Yoda and have patience for we shall see soon.

[brionl]

I don't have my books at work, but if I remember from old D&D (before 3.0) the level of cleric determines the success rate of turning. the higher the level the higher undead type they can turn (or destroy)

Xykon is just using the army as diversionary tactics.. his main goal is to real the gate :)

Even if you don't have the actual books, if you have a computer you should be able to hide the SRD files on there somewhere. :)

I don't mind collectible *card* games, but for some reason collectible miniature games really irk me. I do play Warhammer 40,000 so I have lots of minis around.
"The space marine scouts are clerics..."

If I ever get around to playing tabletop D&D again, I plan to use cardboard stand-ups for minis.

[InuSaga]

I went and got my husband to read this one, because not having the right miniatures is something that happens to him all of the time. "I don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there" Haha, classic. ^_~

[Baltek Grimm]

Ah... a great one. I liked the joke(s) with the miniatures. I know the Problem (as a GM i have never the right miniature for my nscs)!

[Caractacus]

I went and got my husband to read this one, because not having the right miniatures is something that happens to him all of the time. "I don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there" Haha, classic. ^_~

You two are one lucky couple - both having the same hobbies, or at least interests. And sense of humour. *sigh* :smallsmile:

[CGM3]

--meaning that the defenders would almost certainly have the edge in spellpower, without even considering the OotS.

Unless, of course, this is taking place during the week of the Nymphs' & Dryads' Annual Clothing Optional Picnic and Frolic, in which case the high-level priests and mages of Azure City are probably out, er, frolicking. :smallredface:

[Amaroq]

I just had to take a moment to admire the artistry: that last panel takes the booster-pack problem, which I'd at first thought was going to be a 'chuckle one-off', from 'running gag' to 'laugh-out-loud-funny'!

[Niles]

I buy figures at a store where I can see them before I buy them, and I still can't get the right figure for me: they only sell female halflings. :smallfurious:
And by the way, Michael Jackson appeared in a campaign I played, and I can assure his zombies moved quite a lot (and he used a great sword in each and, but that's just a small detail :smallbiggrin: )

[chibibar]

We forget that V can cast Spiked Tenticle of Forceful Intrusion.... that will stop the army in its tracks :)

[Blaznak]

Hee hee! I thought it was funny. I -STINK- at pulling miniatures out of boxes. Sheesh, I always get the WORST rares, etc. Too true, too true...

Later!

[J_Muller]

:smallbiggrin:

Great comic, Giant.

[K'tai]

God, I hate myself for saying it, but the first panel reminded me of Helm's Deep. In fact, the whole battle is looking like the Deep....
Ok, I'm done
*crawls into a hole and cries for comparing oots to lotr*

[warmachine]

The Azure City government wouldn't bother with random figurines. They'd just find the nearest model making artisan and place an order. Governments purchase enough to get what they want.

I'll shut up now.

[Fus.Weapon 1337]

Heheheh. I know how they feel.

"Another Feather Fall? This sucks!"

[Brasswatchman]

This is just about the best comic ever. Oh, man. I haven't laughed so hard in ages.

[Seik]

*sigh* I appreciate the sentiment reflected in this latest cartoon about the mini booster packs, but seriously! You used that joke waaaaaay back in the day with the spell booster packs! Reusing jokes = lame. :(

[The_Kobold_Hero]

Ugh! I know EXACTLY how they feel! :smallyuk:

I lizardfolk at the end were a nice touch, though the constant jump from serious to funny in the speech felt off for some reason. I think thats just me though. :smallredface:

[Suri]

Another great Issue, keep up the good work.
Heh, "Keep looking! There's got to be at least ONE Lizard-folk in there!"

[Porthos]

*sigh* I appreciate the sentiment reflected in this latest cartoon about the mini booster packs, but seriously! You used that joke waaaaaay back in the day with the spell booster packs! Reusing jokes = lame. :(

No, Reusing Jokes = Running Gag = Great Comedy. :smallamused:

Rich has done this many times before, with very good results. There was the Copyright Infringment Gag and the Xykon's Dead.... Not Dead Gag to name just two. And that doesn't even count the true running gags like "I though your dad was dead" and V's familiar. ;)

As long as there is something fresh brought to the table, there is absolutely nothing wrong with reshaping old material. :smallsmile:

[Dausuul]

That wizard is more like 18th or 19th level--he teleported the entire OotS twice, making him a minimum of 18th level (6 additional persons when t-porting) unless he's got some non-standard feat or prestige class.

Or he's just a good rules lawyer. "Carrying gear or objects up to their maximum load" offers considerable leeway; if people can be allowed to count as objects, Roy could "carry" Vaarsuvius, Durkon could "carry" Haley, and Elan could "carry" Belkar. It's sketchy as hell, but if the DM needs an excuse for a mid-level wizard to be able to Teleport six adventurers at once, there it is... and since V can't cast Teleport, there's no risk of the PCs abusing the loophole.

And Belkar implied that V could have Teleported the party if s/he hadn't picked Conjuration for a barred school, which suggests that there was indeed some such loophole involved.

Finally, there's a strong possibility that that wizard is still dead, since the Resurrect that was meant for him ended up getting cast on Shojo instead...


I suspect that there are more than a couple of 13+ level clerics around, from the way Lord Shojo was talking--meaning that the defenders would almost certainly have the edge in spellpower, without even considering the OotS.Shojo did say "...until the clerics are done resurrecting him," but I don't think you can take that to mean there are multiple clerics that are capable of casting Resurrect. If you read it that literally, then "the clerics... resurrecting him" would mean multiple clerics casting the spell together, which is clearly not the case. I think Shojo was just talking about "the clerics" as a unit.


V used a 7th level spell (grasping hand) in #397, and therefore is at least a 13th level evoker--plenty of firepower to be had there, and Durkon will have some new tricks as well assuming he's also 13th level.I stand corrected on that. But then, the PCs are supposed to be a decent match for Xykon. I'm just questioning whether Azure City has much besides the PCs to throw at him.

[Not a Paladin]

Let's see,

Stationing the swordsmen and pikemen on the wall doesn't seem like a good idea. They should probably be deployed through the gate to fight up close.

The zombies aren't too much of a threat, but the ghouls are a problem, as Hinjo has guessed. I think the OotS should take them on.

As for the archers, they can make themselves useful by taking out the flying zombies. They'll have to get by damage reduction, but they probably have some sort of melee weapon as a backup, as well as being able to make more actions per round than the zombies.

The main threat is :xykon: himself. He's a high-level arcane spellcaster with a silver dragon zombie mount. The OotS should fight him when the need to do so arises.

By the way, you'll notice that the ghoul horde contains 314 ghouls. Previously, :redcloak: reported that the ghoul horde had swelled by 314 members, meaning that there wasn't a ghoul horde to begin with.

Also, I suspect that the following conversation is taking place between the villains:

:xykon:: Wait...why is our army represented by a number of fiendish musk oxen?
:redcloak:: I couldn't afford to buy individual miniatures, so I had to use the randomized "booster packs".
:xykon:: Okay, so what am I represented by?
:redcloak:: You are the giant Lego knight.
:xykon:: Why didn't you use the miniatures?
:redcloak:: Call me crazy, but I don't think that you are best represented by the celestial woolly mammoth.

[Estelindis]

Does no one buy Reaper Minis? You can get almost exactly what you want (and it's easy enough to mod minis) and they cost about 4 bucks each.
I do, and I love them - although I hardly ever use them in my games, I just like to paint them. I find Reaper minis are particularly good for representing almost any player character type one can think of (although they also have a lot of good monsters).

Aren't they rough, dull gray metal (lead) figures that people file down and paint?
They are metal, and you often have to file them down a little bit to get rid of moulding lines before you paint them, but they're far from rough. They have a gallery (http://www.reapermini.com/gallery/showcase) you can check out if you're curious.

Anyway, getting back to the comic, I don't think anyone has yet mentioned what was my favourite line of the lot: O-Chul's brilliantly deadpan "Would you prefer to represent our sacrifice with the red dragon hatchlings or the fiendish boars?" :smallbiggrin: Asked just after he had stated his willingness to die defending the gate - quite a serious matter! - this provided the perfect comic contrast.

[EdgarVerona]

I think this is the first one in a long time that has made me laugh hard enough to almost fall out of my chair. =) Most have kept me captivated, but not a "falling out of the chair laughing" kind of thing. That was fantastic. =)

[Bluefin]

Haha, awesome comic.
And Sangwaang is one of my new favorite npcs

[MReav]

I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but Haley's wrong. Miss Diviner doesn't read minds, she sees the future.

[EntilZha]

It was a great subject for a double-length comic. Taking a shot at the Wotzis and their predilection to make everything Common-Uncommon-Rare.

:biggrin:

[Xeticus]

I've bought a share of miniatures over the ages, and I can't believe how gamers today tolerate these sealed packs that give them no choice over what they get, and those pre-painted ones suck compared to an even half-assed paintjob.


Ive never bought minis without knowing what I was getting, never will.

BTW, what was with halley asking for that one miniature. Has she forgotten she's a THIEF???

I have never had an interest in painting figs and never got into wargames because of it. If I can walk into a store, buy a box of figs and open them and have them be exactl what i want then great. otherwise I'm not interested. So the D&D minis are a better solution cause they're at least pre-painted. But you can't pick what you get. So close. Halfway there.....

[erewhon]

Ignoring magic and flight (a silly thing to do, but mass armies and walled castles built like they were in our world are a silly thing in the first place in D&D land). If Xykon goes for a straight assault he needs closer to 10:1 odds, for a siege or prepared assault he needs about 3:1 which he has. Given his demonstrated patience and the enormous concern he and redcloak show for their subordinates I think we know which will be tried.

Magic and flight substantially reduce the value of the walls, so something less than 3:1 or 10:1 is needed. How much less? Who cares?

It's irrelevant since Xykon isn't depending on the Hobgoblin assualt anyway, the whole point to letting Miko go was to find the gate so someone could get to it while the battle rages. The 30,000 Hobgoblins and masses of undead are all a diversion. I don't expect Xykon to stick arround for the diversion, hence I expect the Hobgoblins to be toast. Instead the PCs will somehow foil Xykon and he will head for Girard's gate, we know he goes there, and storytelling logic says we are in for the grand tour of all 5 gates.


Well, let's not kid ourselves. All Xykon has to do is say, "Hey, dummy, go over there and open that up for me" and the MitD will stroll through the arrow storm like a sulky teenager made to do chores and tear the walls down with one yank. To me, it looks like Azure City is a goner, because Xykon just has a lot of meat to bring to the table. Sorry guys.

Unless the OOTS'ers get clever, the place is done for.

[Callista]

yeah i just got to the point where i used those colored glass beads that are normally used for filling vases...
That's exactly what I do. It works wonderfully.

[fractal]

Well, let's not kid ourselves. All Xykon has to do is say, "Hey, dummy, go over there and open that up for me" and the MitD will stroll through the arrow storm like a sulky teenager made to do chores and tear the walls down with one yank. To me, it looks like Azure City is a goner, because Xykon just has a lot of meat to bring to the table. Sorry guys.

Unless the OOTS'ers get clever, the place is done for.
But remember,
Xykon wouldn't do that. He knows that the villain always keeps his secret weapon cloaked in shadow until the climax. The middle of the invasion isn't the climax, the inevitable massive confrontation with the PCs in front of the gate is the climax.

[Cryo]

The new WotC randomized miniatures also come with a deck of cards for a separate game, right? Skirmishes they call it, I believe. You fight your friends' miniatures on a small landscape card.

Back in the days, I would have paid good money for a "creepy crawlers"-like toy with D&D themed molds. Never enough goblins, or skeletons, or orcs, or whatever common units you need 10-20 of in various games.

[Xartyve]

If I want individual mini's I shop on eBay, I buy booster packs just to get more minis

[Rhothaerill]

I just recently caught up through the current strip. I just have to say "kudos" to Rich Burlew. :cool: I've thoroughly enjoyed the whole series to date.

[Payne]

I feel their pain... really do. :smallmad:

Damn minis.

[fruityjanitor]

Well, let's not kid ourselves. All Xykon has to do is say, "Hey, dummy, go over there and open that up for me" and the MitD will stroll through the arrow storm like a sulky teenager made to do chores and tear the walls down with one yank. To me, it looks like Azure City is a goner, because Xykon just has a lot of meat to bring to the table. Sorry guys.

Unless the OOTS'ers get clever, the place is done for.

The MitD probably is strong enough to do that, BUT walking through that arrow storm would ruin his umbrella. We can't have that :)

[CelestialStick]

God, I hate myself for saying it, but the first panel reminded me of Helm's Deep. In fact, the whole battle is looking like the Deep....
Ok, I'm done
*crawls into a hole and cries for comparing oots to lotr*

No need to hate yourself--others have already said it looks like Helm's Deep. :smallsmile:


The Azure City government wouldn't bother with random figurines. They'd just find the nearest model making artisan and place an order. Governments purchase enough to get what they want.

I'll shut up now.

Modern governments of wealthy countries can (often) do this. Medieval governments of poor countries couldn't afford to do so. Before the Industrial Revolution (starting roughly 1700 A.D. in Great Britain), most populations in most places lived on the edge of starvation for most of human history. Governments couldn't afford to confiscate a third or more of a nation's income with such poverty. There just wasn't the income to confiscate without producing massive starvation.


Or he's just a good rules lawyer. "Carrying gear or objects up to their maximum load" offers considerable leeway; if people can be allowed to count as objects, Roy could "carry" Vaarsuvius, Durkon could "carry" Haley, and Elan could "carry" Belkar. It's sketchy as hell, but if the DM needs an excuse for a mid-level wizard to be able to Teleport six adventurers at once, there it is... and since V can't cast Teleport, there's no risk of the PCs abusing the loophole.

Ruling that people count as "objects" would make him a bad rules lawyer. The limit on the number of creatures the caster can teleport clearly implies that the category of "objects" does not include creatures for purposes of the teleport spell.


I do, and I love them - although I hardly ever use them in my games, I just like to paint them. I find Reaper minis are particularly good for representing almost any player character type one can think of (although they also have a lot of good monsters).

They are metal, and you often have to file them down a little bit to get rid of moulding lines before you paint them, but they're far from rough. They have a gallery (http://www.reapermini.com/gallery/showcase) you can check out if you're curious.

Thanks for the link. Those all look nice--after lots of hard word. I have no interest in filing or painting miniatures. The Wizards miniatures have the virtues of both being pre-painted and matching the 3.5 spacing. I do have a few medium-sized Reaper miniatures, but either someone else paints them or I use them as they come. I have the Guardians of the Heavens set and they require gluing to attach the wings. They are rough and unbalance, and break apart easily. They're for artists, not for the rough and tumble of table top gaming!

[Karkadinn]

Does no one buy Reaper Minis? You can get almost exactly what you want (and it's easy enough to mod minis) and they cost about 4 bucks each.

Alternatively, you can buy Heroscape minis, which are A) Cheaper, B) Prepainted, and C) Come with terrain. :smalltongue:

[warmachine]

Modern governments of wealthy countries can (often) do this. Medieval governments of poor countries couldn't afford to do so. Before the Industrial Revolution (starting roughly 1700 A.D. in Great Britain), most populations in most places lived on the edge of starvation for most of human history. Governments couldn't afford to confiscate a third or more of a nation's income with such poverty. There just wasn't the income to confiscate without producing massive starvation.

If Azure City can afford a nobility, outposts with magical warning systems and an army of people with weapons and armour who do no productive work, they can afford to place an order for figurines. Governments have been taxing ever since they existed and war room models aren't a major expenditure. The actual army they represent is the major expenditure. Even if it is expensive, the government can already afford a scale model of their city and random figurines. Any civil servant would have taken the budget for the war room modelling and gone to the artisan directly.

[Lord Zentei]

By the way, you'll notice that the ghoul horde contains 314 ghouls. Previously, :redcloak: reported that the ghoul horde had swelled by 314 members, meaning that there wasn't a ghoul horde to begin with.

Nah, 314 is the number of clerics capable of turning undead.

[CelestialStick]

If Azure City can afford a nobility, outposts with magical warning systems and an army of people with weapons and armour who do no productive work, they can afford to place an order for figurines. Governments have been taxing ever since they existed and war room models aren't a major expenditure. The actual army they represent is the major expenditure. Even if it is expensive, the government can already afford a scale model of their city and random figurines. Any civil servant would have taken the budget for the war room modelling and gone to the artisan directly.

The expenditures for a large military force based on a poor medieval economy just makes them that much less able to afford to buy frivolous things. Thanks for helping make my point! :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Zentei]

The Azure City government wouldn't bother with random figurines. They'd just find the nearest model making artisan and place an order. Governments purchase enough to get what they want.

I'll shut up now.

Unless, of course, there was the issue of there not being enough time to wait for that, so they grabbed whatever was on hand and made do. It's not that important an issue, after all - the battleplan, however, is.

Besides, the Laws of Funny would prevent it. :smallwink:

[factotum]

By the way, you'll notice that the ghoul horde contains 314 ghouls. Previously, :redcloak: reported that the ghoul horde had swelled by 314 members, meaning that there wasn't a ghoul horde to begin with.


I think you misread the comic there. 314 was the answer the seer gave to the unasked question "How many clerics do we have that are capable of turning undead?"--she then went on to say that 249 of them are 3rd level or lower.

[Renegade Paladin]

Nitpick: It's "make do," not "make due."

[CelestialStick]

Nitpick: It's "make do," not "make due."

Someone caught that already--not me, but someone observant. :smallwink:

[luneix]

I ussualy use Space Marines (Warhammer 40k) for my enemies because I've only ever bought one set of minatures :D

[Estelindis]

Thanks for the link. Those all look nice--after lots of hard word. I have no interest in filing or painting miniatures. The Wizards miniatures have the virtues of both being pre-painted and matching the 3.5 spacing. I do have a few medium-sized Reaper miniatures, but either someone else paints them or I use them as they come. I have the Guardians of the Heavens set and they require gluing to attach the wings. They are rough and unbalance, and break apart easily. They're for artists, not for the rough and tumble of table top gaming!
Yeah, it is a lot of hard work to make them look that good, but it can be worth it. I think the Guardians of Heaven set it quite old, and most of the new figures are a lot better - having bought one of their angel figures in order to use the wings for a conversion, I found that the original mini was balanced fine for wings (a nice, heavy base intended to simulate clouds), but the figure I tried to adapt looked *terrible* with them (and, with the weight of the metal, balance was quite a problem).

Although I think they'll never be as good as minis painted by practised painters, the Wizards miniatures look pretty good for pre-painted figures. I own just one (which a friend who collects them gave me because it looked almost perfect for my kalashtar psion in our Eberron game), but I like it very much. The randomisation factor must be a pain - but, in its favour, it may make the business venture more viable for Wizards than it would otherwise be. After all, one can only publish so many prestige class books before people stop buying - they have to have something else to fall back on! :smallwink:


Alternatively, you can buy Heroscape minis, which are A) Cheaper, B) Prepainted, and C) Come with terrain. :smalltongue:
Yes, these are incredibly cool. I picked up the starter box for a song at a local toy shop, as a present for the friend I've already mentioned, and was very impressed by the quality (and quantity!) of minis and terrain provided for that price.

[CelestialStick]

Yeah, it is a lot of hard work to make them look that good, but it can be worth it. I think the Guardians of Heaven set it quite old, and most of the new figures are a lot better - having bought one of their angel figures in order to use the wings for a conversion, I found that the original mini was balanced fine for wings (a nice, heavy base intended to simulate clouds), but the figure I tried to adapt looked *terrible* with them (and, with the weight of the metal, balance was quite a problem).

Although I think they'll never be as good as minis painted by practised painters, the Wizards miniatures look pretty good for pre-painted figures. I own just one (which a friend who collects them gave me because it looked almost perfect for my kalashtar psion in our Eberron game), but I like it very much. The randomisation factor must be a pain - but, in its favour, it may make the business venture more viable for Wizards than it would otherwise be. After all, one can only publish so many prestige class books before people stop buying - they have to have something else to fall back on! :smallwink:

I'm glad to hear they've gotten better. I have a handful of Wizards figures, including the colossal+ red dragon they put out, which two of my players got me for my birthday. Most of the figures I have gotten to play specific PCs or NPCs, rather than hordes of generalized NPCs. I don't have the patience or the fine motor control necessary to do my own miniatures.

[Caractacus]

Unless, of course, there was the issue of there not being enough time to wait for that, so they grabbed whatever was on hand and made do. It's not that important an issue, after all - the battleplan, however, is.

Besides, the Laws of Funny would prevent it. :smallwink:

This is exactly 100% of the point.

If the paladins really wanted miniatures regularly, they would already have them. The difficulty here is that someone basically said, "We're under attack. We need to plan the defences. Get out there and round up all the miniatures you can find - we need about 9,000."

There followed a mass collection/purchase of miniatures in, what, a few hours or so? So we get this improvised mess.

So familiar...:smalltongue:

[warmachine]

The expenditures for a large military force based on a poor medieval economy just makes them that much less able to afford to buy frivolous things. Thanks for helping make my point! :smallbiggrin:
First, a war room is not a frivolity. An army is far more effective if the generals can plan and direct a battle with an overview. Making sure troops are in the right place at the right time is a must. The cost effectiveness of a war room is so obvious, it's a no brainer. Second and more importantly, your argument fails to address mine that they can ALREADY afford a war room model and figurines.

As others have pointed out, the author is using artistic license. Otherwise, any civil servant in a stable government would have had that war room properly stocked a long time ago.

[CelestialStick]

First, a war room is not a frivolity. An army is far more effective if the generals can plan and direct a battle with an overview. Making sure troops are in the right place at the right time is a must. The cost effectiveness of a war room is so obvious, it's a no brainer. Second and more importantly, your argument fails to address mine that they can ALREADY afford a war room model and figurines.

As others have pointed out, the author is using artistic license. Otherwise, any civil servant in a stable government would have had that war room properly stocked a long time ago.

You fellows have no idea just how much poorer people were before the Industrial Revolution than they are today. Having figures that actually depicted the proper race and class of each of 9000 troops would have been an unforgivable frivolity. For that matter, European "governments" (i.e. princes) didn't have much in the way of paid civil servants either. Indeed the whole notion of professional civil servants comes from the modern era.

I'm not challenging Rich's use of artistic license, only your nitpicking of his use of artistic license by claiming that they'd have had something manifestly unafforable by medieval standards. (And let's not even start talking about the lack of plastics!)

[warmachine]

I'm not challenging Rich's use of artistic license, only your nitpicking of his use of artistic license by claiming that they'd have had something manifestly unafforable by medieval standards. (And let's not even start talking about the lack of plastics!)
Yet again, you ignore the argument that the Azure City government CAN afford a war room model and figurines. I have made no attempt to compare to a realistic, medieval society. I have not even commented on the plastic as OotS having modern technology is not noteworthy here. I have commented that the fictional government has done something that's absurd, even though it's funny - buying random models rather than ordering the models they want long before. For a Lawful government with heavy, military defenses, they seem to have odd failures of military organisation.

[CelestialStick]

Yet again, you ignore the argument that the Azure City government CAN afford a war room model and figurines. I have made no attempt to compare to a realistic, medieval society. I have not even commented on the plastic as OotS having modern technology is not noteworthy here. I have commented that the fictional government has done something that's absurd, even though it's funny - buying random models rather than ordering the models they want long before. For a Lawful government with heavy, military defenses, they seem to have odd failures of military organisation.

I didn't ignore the argument in part because it's an assertion not an argument; I simply point out that it's historically unrealistic and that your own argument in favor of the assertion--that they have large military expenditures--undermines rather than supports the assertion. Medieval and ancient rulers often had high military expenditures, and given the poverty of their subjects, could ill-afford triffles like detailed military figures. The existence of these military expenditures does not prove that the subjects didn't live in poverty, as indeed it was common for rulers to spend on the military while the subjects languished in poverty, but rather means that, as the ruler could barely afford his 9000 troops, he could certainly not afford 39,000 detailed figures.

[fwiffo]

...as the ruler could barely afford his 9000 troops, he could certainly not afford 39,000 detailed figures.

While I basically agree with your side of the argument, no model of a conflict of that scale could have a 1-to-1 correspondence of people and figurines. Figurines would either represent military units, or a set number of people/items of a particular type.

That said, I think this particular discussion for both of you went way past the allowances that one makes when the comic's "funny" depends on not over-analyzing the rules.

[CelestialStick]

While I basically agree with your side of the argument, no model of a conflict of that scale could have a 1-to-1 correspondence of people and figurines. Figurines would either represent military units, or a set number of people/items of a particular type.

That said, I think this particular discussion for both of you went way past the allowances that one makes when the comic's "funny" depends on not over-analyzing the rules.

Agree that they wouldn't use 39000 figures but--assuming that a medieval lord even had a scale model with figures--that they would, as with the WWII models I know best, use counters to represent units.

Nobody's actually discussing rules here. He nitpicked Rich so I nitpicked him, partly to lampoon his nitpicking, and partly because I teach history and I think it's important for people to understand the intense poverty, by our modern standards, that afflicted virtually all of humanity for virtually all of our history before the Industrial Revolution. It's probably too serious a topic to effectively lampoon incorrect nitpicking. :smallsigh:

[Zemyla]

It's good to see Giant still has a whole deck of aces up his sleeve :smallbiggrin:
That's because he couldn't find any other cards in the Bicycle booster decks.

[Erianaiel]

Let's see,

Stationing the swordsmen and pikemen on the wall doesn't seem like a good idea. They should probably be deployed through the gate to fight up close.


I am far from a military genius. or military anything really, but that does strike me as a rather bad idea. Sending a few thousand men to confront an army of 30.000 at least.
You will indeed want those fighters on the wall as that means the enemy has to get their own fighters all the way up there. Usually that involves ladders or assault towers, both are rather narrow and allow only a few attackers at a time to approach the wall. That is exactly why those fortifications negate the superior numbers of Xykon's army. Sword fighters will be more usefull on the walls than pikement as units of pike are vulnerable from the side and can not manouvre quickly (they are deadly from the front though), but in either case they need only enough defenders up there to kill the attackers faster than Xykon can get them on the wall. That is, until he can breach the wall or gate and send his army through. (units of pikemen blocking off a breach in the wall would be very effective too).



The zombies aren't too much of a threat, but the ghouls are a problem, as Hinjo has guessed. I think the OotS should take them on.


I would suggest that the OotS as the resident adventurers should focus on taking out the enemy's main strength: Xykon, Redcloak and the MitD. The NPCs can handle the NPCs :)



As for the archers, they can make themselves useful by taking out the flying zombies. They'll have to get by damage reduction, but they probably have some sort of melee weapon as a backup, as well as being able to make more actions per round than the zombies.


The archers of course have to make themselves useful by trying to kill or injure as many enemies as long as they approach the wall. The hobgoblins are the most useful target both because they are easier to kill and because they are more likely to have morale issues if they see the front ranks being cut down again and again. Zombies do not suffer that lack.



The main threat is :xykon: himself. He's a high-level arcane spellcaster with a silver dragon zombie mount. The OotS should fight him when the need to do so arises.

By the way, you'll notice that the ghoul horde contains 314 ghouls. Previously, :redcloak: reported that the ghoul horde had swelled by 314 members, meaning that there wasn't a ghoul horde to begin with.


Not necessarily. It means that the latest 'solve a problem by sacrificing minions' had resulted in 314 more zombified hobgoblins (and a number of dead but eaten ones). There could have been one zombie or 5000 zombies prior to that.



Eri

[Bilbo27]

Oh my did I LMAO. My GM does the same thing with his miniatures.

[kabbor]

Agree that they wouldn't use 39000 figures but--assuming that a medieval lord even had a scale model with figures--that they would, as with the WWII models I know best, use counters to represent units.

Nobody's actually discussing rules here. He nitpicked Rich so I nitpicked him, partly to lampoon his nitpicking, and partly because I teach history and I think it's important for people to understand the intense poverty, by our modern standards, that afflicted virtually all of humanity for virtually all of our history before the Industrial Revolution. It's probably too serious a topic to effectively lampoon incorrect nitpicking. :smallsigh:

Now I am not a historian, but hasn't battles using miniatures been a pastime of the wealthy for many centuries? 'Toy soldiers' are a common sight in museums, and are even found in ancient archelogical digs.
I would have expected any general to have had a collection of 'miniatures', ether lead, timber or clay, on hand to demonstrate techniques that he planned to use.

[thatsthespirit]

I don't want anyone trying to be a PC out there!

That made me laugh hard.

Minor critic quibble: it's "make do," not "make due."

[thatsthespirit]

Whoops! I have now seen that the "make due" typo has been caught at least a few times. Sorry.

[Sisqui]

I think it's important for people to understand the intense poverty, by our modern standards, that afflicted virtually all of humanity for virtually all of our history before the Industrial Revolution. :smallsigh:

Let's hear it for capitalism! Vive les profit margins!! :smallbiggrin:

[Edna]

The Azure City government wouldn't bother with random figurines. They'd just find the nearest model making artisan and place an order. Governments purchase enough to get what they want.

Assuming they knew in advance exactly how many and what kind of monsters would be attacking them on this particular day...

Edna

[HealthKit]

Wow, an awful lot of debate over the pratical uses of minatures in the comic when it was obviously just a jibe at Wizards of the Coast.