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MesiDoomstalker
2014-05-12, 05:51 PM
I'm going to be starting a Dark Sun game soon and I realized something. For those who don't know, Athas has metal as super rare. So metallic currency like the typical coppers and golds, would be out of the question except for the highest currencies. And I'm frankly stuck on what to do with various levels of currency. The only idea I have are small glass figuirines for Astral Diamonds. Anyone else have some non-metallic, non-textile currency ideas?

LibraryOgre
2014-05-12, 06:04 PM
The standard assumption for Dark Sun is Ceramic Pieces, each worth about a copper; most prices for non-metal items are in ceramics, however (so a longsword still costs 15gp if made out of steel, but that's 1500 ceramics... a fortune). Ceramics are made so they can break down into bits, which are worth about 1/10th of a ceramic. A 3rd level fighter will start with between 5d4*30 CP... between 150cp and 600cp. They can afford a steel dagger, or a steel shortsword if they have nothing else and roll lucky on their money.

The Tablelands has only a primitive monetary economy... bigger amounts are likely handled through draft notes on merchant houses.

Gildedragon
2014-05-12, 10:59 PM
Bone or Ivory are common trade token goods; though not sure how common they'd be in athas
Shell is also pretty common in the world, with fancy nacreous types tending towards more expensive, or fancy spiky ones... but these might be less common in athas
giant stone disks/wheels!
chits that represent units of water?

Rhynn
2014-05-12, 11:33 PM
If you're worrying about astral diamonds, how about, you know... gold? It's not like astral diamonds in a basic setting wouldn't be rarer than gold in Dark Sun.

Other than that, letters of credit from merchant houses.

The basic ceramic pieces have to get their value from somewhere, so I've figured that they're water tokens (technically city-specific, but there's enough trade between the cities done by the merchant houses that they're interested in all ceramic pieces, because it's not worth anyone's time to track which city your ceramic pieces are from). Each ceramic piece is worth 10 gallons of water from the city wells in my setting (I've only shifted prices by a factor of 10, because a factor of 100 was ridiculous when metal weapons aren't that good, and I needed to fit bits in there as the lowest currency). I'm pretty sure that differs starkly from the AD&D setting book prices, because with those prices, a laborer can't even buy enough water to sustain himself (ignoring that he probably needs double because he's doing hard labor in the sun), never mind food.

MesiDoomstalker
2014-05-13, 12:15 AM
The standard assumption for Dark Sun is Ceramic Pieces, each worth about a copper; most prices for non-metal items are in ceramics, however (so a longsword still costs 15gp if made out of steel, but that's 1500 ceramics... a fortune). Ceramics are made so they can break down into bits, which are worth about 1/10th of a ceramic. A 3rd level fighter will start with between 5d4*30 CP... between 150cp and 600cp. They can afford a steel dagger, or a steel shortsword if they have nothing else and roll lucky on their money.

The Tablelands has only a primitive monetary economy... bigger amounts are likely handled through draft notes on merchant houses.

This sounds awfully AD&D-like. I'm not trying to make this a super difficult game, wealth wise. They'll be running lower but I'll be using Inherent bonuses so they are never terribly far behind in pluses. My other understanding of Athas is paper is pretty expensive, since it requires woody plants which require a lot of water. Not quite metal expensive, but not something anyone but the wealthy use. So unless there is some easier to produce paper-like item (what is papyrus? I think its textile I'm honestly not sure), notes have a same issue as paper money (to a lesser degree I suppose).


If you're worrying about astral diamonds, how about, you know... gold? It's not like astral diamonds in a basic setting wouldn't be rarer than gold in Dark Sun.

Other than that, letters of credit from merchant houses.

The basic ceramic pieces have to get their value from somewhere, so I've figured that they're water tokens (technically city-specific, but there's enough trade between the cities done by the merchant houses that they're interested in all ceramic pieces, because it's not worth anyone's time to track which city your ceramic pieces are from). Each ceramic piece is worth 10 gallons of water from the city wells in my setting (I've only shifted prices by a factor of 10, because a factor of 100 was ridiculous when metal weapons aren't that good, and I needed to fit bits in there as the lowest currency). I'm pretty sure that differs starkly from the AD&D setting book prices, because with those prices, a laborer can't even buy enough water to sustain himself (ignoring that he probably needs double because he's doing hard labor in the sun), never mind food.

I was actually thinking of using the base currency (the Gold equivalent) thats enrusted with gold leaf for Platinum. And ya, Astral Diamonds don't exist mainly because the few successful attempts to reach the Astral Sea find it an extraplanar void. IE no diamonds to take back. A pure gold coin could replace an astral diamond, but I know my players like the weight:value ratio of the Astral Diamond (I have some weird players). So, small glass figures would be a good substitute I think.

But I love your idea of currency representing certain amount of water. A water based currency makes a lot of sense and allows me to 'tweak' my players wealth by causing unusual rains (or whatever passes as rain in Athas) or droughts.

I can see ceramic's as being Copper equivalent. I don't think bones or shells would work. Too fragile for trading (also lack of large bodies of water to collect shells from). Bones are plentiful, in theory. IIRC, most armor and weapons are made of stone, bone or chitin if you can't afford metal.

Sith_Happens
2014-05-13, 12:33 AM
Astral Diamonds are a 4E thing, right? Dark Sun has an official 4E campaign guide that would presumably answer your questions.

JustPlayItLoud
2014-05-13, 12:33 AM
I love Dark Sun, so I'm used to using the standard Dark Sun monetary system. Ceramic is the basic unit of currency, backed by water reserves in local economies. Gold and steel are obscenely valuable.

As to your question about papyrus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus), it's basically paper made from the pulp of the papyrus plant, Cyperus papyrus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_papyrus). It's a swampy plant so not an especially great substitute for traditional paper. It will grow in arid, sandy climates better than a lot of trees, but it still needs a good bit of water. It is, however, mentioned in the rules as the preferred medium for scribing scrolls. It's likely to be expensive and only readily accessible for government, merchants, and other wealthy citizens. I imagine poorer citizens, if literate, might use charcoal or chalk and bits of discarded/salvaged wood or sheets of stone.

Rhynn
2014-05-13, 12:49 AM
But I love your idea of currency representing certain amount of water. A water based currency makes a lot of sense and allows me to 'tweak' my players wealth by causing unusual rains (or whatever passes as rain in Athas) or droughts.

Thanks!

Technically, the ceramic pieces are also "food tokens" - rice primarily (raised in mud fields) - since in my setting, the city-state government (i.e. the Sorcerer-King and his Templars) control the wells and most of the city's fields (enough to feed the city even on lean years), and nobles mostly just raise cash crops. I just haven't worked out a specific exchange rate there, and water is more iconic and makes a better "image," as it were.

The varying exchange rate is definitely an element; during droughts or in case of crop failure, the city-state will hike up the "price" of water (now your ceramic piece is only worth 5 gallons, for instance) and food; this means the poorest free citizens will suffer the most, of course - slaves of the city will still be given rations (possibly reduced) sufficient to keep them working, especially in the fields.

City-states can also hike up prices when they need to enforce a special levy or tax on the city; you can bet that merchant houses in the city aren't allowed to change the prices they've negotiated for regular supplies (arms, armor, etc.) with the city, so they just have to absorb the loss if they want to keep doing business in the city (and with so few major cities so far apart, they don't have a real choice); of course, the merchant houses are perfectly capable of waiting for the value of the ceramic pieces to go back to what it used to be. Common folk aren't so fortunate.

Also, draft notes / letters of credit would probably be sticks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick) rather than actual paper/papyrus notes. Made from bone or wood, you split the stick in the middle in a way that creates a unique break, so the pieces can be matched together to prove authenticity. The value of the credit is on both pieces. Merchant houses and city governments would give these out, possibly in varying values (you might want your 100,000 ceramic pieces in ten sticks of 10,000 each, for instance). They would at least nominally be cashable with the merchant house or city government, but mostly they'd be used as currency on their own.

A city state's credit would only be good in that city, most likely, while merchant houses' credit would be good in any city or trading post the house as a presence in. Of course, political or economic upsets could devalue them, at least temporarily - maybe the merchant house gets kicked out of your city, or whatever. Generally, though, no one who gave them out could afford to renege on them, because that would basically declare them insolvent, and even if they had cash and goods, no one would extend them credit again. (Credit is essential for arbitrage trading; you do not want to be transporting cash/gems as well as goods, because cash is so much more attractive to robbers.)

Tally sticks would be very strictly monitored by their issuer: once a stick-half is turned in, both halves would be burned immediately (after updating ledgers, etc.). You can't have rogue halves floating around, because even a single incident of someone coming in with a stick-half from you and you being unable to find a match would cast question on the legitimacy of your tally sticks; you'd basically have to pay it out just in case, to keep your own credit up. A templar or merchant house accountant who lets stick-halves get stolen would probably be executed...

Edit: Everything about tally sticks (except the more brutal measures mentioned above, ahem) would generally apply to any medieval setting, too. Tally sticks were a real thing, and were more common at certain levels of trade (like farmer to merchant, marketplace trading of large amounts) than coin. Cultures basically swing between "cash economies" and "credit economies," and the cash economies are almost inevitably associated with an imperial age (the Roman Empire, the Chinese Empire) driven by conquest and exploitation of new natural resources (like gold and silver mines), and credit economies are associated with more fractured societies (like feudal medieval Europe). Even so, those metal currencies frequently had their origins in, for instance, tokens given to imperial soldiers to be exchanged for food, etc. - giving them a concrete base value. Once you're taxing people and accepting the coin you issue as a vessel of paying your taxes (so you can give it back to people in exchange for goods and services), that taxation forms the concrete base value of the coinage - anywhere your tax collectors can reach.

JusticeZero
2014-05-13, 01:00 AM
You could also do how the crime scene does it and trade in narcotics. They're valuable, portable, have a reasonably stable value, are fairly hard to counterfeit.

LokiRagnarok
2014-05-13, 01:07 AM
Don't know anything about the Dark Sun setting, but for wealthy people, spices or salt may be an option.

Stubbazubba
2014-05-13, 01:33 AM
Coins made from jade (http://ancientpoint.com/inf/21294-ancient_chinese_hetian_jade_hand___carved_jade_pen dant_jade_ancient_coin_011.html) would be cool. Ancient Chinese kings and emperors used to give the nobles who swore fealty to them jade pendants signifying their authority (though usually larger than just a coin), so it would make perfect sense as a currency.

Ravens_cry
2014-05-13, 01:43 AM
You could also use the barter rules from d20 Apocalypse for less civilized areas. After all, ceramic tiles need kilns, and kilns need fuel, and fuel is pretty damn rare on Athas as well.

TuggyNE
2014-05-13, 02:26 AM
Technically, the ceramic pieces are also "food tokens" - rice primarily (raised in mud fields) - since in my setting, the city-state government (i.e. the Sorcerer-King and his Templars) control the wells and most of the city's fields (enough to feed the city even on lean years), and nobles mostly just raise cash crops. I just haven't worked out a specific exchange rate there, and water is more iconic and makes a better "image," as it were.

Who would raise rice in a desert? It's about as water-heavy as corn is! :smalleek:


The varying exchange rate is definitely an element; during droughts or in case of crop failure, the city-state will hike up the "price" of water (now your ceramic piece is only worth 5 gallons, for instance) and food; this means the poorest free citizens will suffer the most, of course - slaves of the city will still be given rations (possibly reduced) sufficient to keep them working, especially in the fields.

This seems a little hard to arrange the price changes, but I can imagine a more natural way to manage the currency/water exchange: have a very large covered cistern with a slot on one side going about halfway down and draining into a second, smaller cistern. Access to the first cistern is charged for at a fixed rate; access to the second is free to all. However, as water reserves lower, the smaller cistern is harder and harder to get anything out of because the rate of fill drops with the water level, until everyone must buy all their water, which then naturally lowers the circulation of ceramic pieces as they and water become more valuable.

Whether a given city would use this arrangement I don't know, but it seems clever enough to be worth sharing. (He said modestly.)


Tally sticks would be very strictly monitored by their issuer: once a stick-half is turned in, both halves would be burned immediately (after updating ledgers, etc.).

Burned, or simply cut in half along their value markings. The latter is easier and safer, and probably quicker too; a stick-half that's been chopped along its markings and is now a stick-quarter is pretty simple to identify. (Burning for heat later is optional: basically, as long as it's been decommissioned permanently you can do whatever with the wood debris.)

Gildedragon
2014-05-13, 02:35 AM
Isn't wood kind of rare in Athas? little water means not very much plantlife...
Tally sticks might run into the same issues as papyrus of resource availability and production feasability

Carved bone, stone and ceramic are probably the best bets. A hard stone (like jade as Stubbasubba said) requires significant effort to work in the absence of metal tools jade or granite or marble eccentrics would be handy trade tools. As would ground-stone axe heads, adzes, scrapers: all useful tools that represent significant worker investment.

Micro-blades of obsidian and fancy flaked stone tools would also be viable trade standarizers, as the former are versatile omnitools that wear down relatively fast but can be easily produced (by a sufficiently skilled worker with access to the raw material: which is where the value is) and the latter are just difficult and pretty.

Ceramic for water is a great one though. One could envision v. efficient ovens that catch the water evaporating from the baking of the clay and condense it. It is from this recapture that the chits gain their value.

---

For record keeping: quipu or similar possibly-linguistic possibly-mnemonic aids would be the most efficient method. Yarn is probably not too rare (or at worst hair) and combinations of knots, angles, branchings and beads produce records of data.

Rhynn
2014-05-13, 03:00 AM
Isn't wood kind of rare in Athas? little water means not very much plantlife...
Tally sticks might run into the same issues as papyrus of resource availability and production feasability

I did say bone. You're correct that it's probably a much better option than wood, except in Gulg and Nibenay (although even there bone might dominate, being that it's used for a lot of things already, and the merchant houses may value uniformity).


Who would raise rice in a desert? It's about as water-heavy as corn is! :smalleek:

I'm pretty sure that's straight out of the setting material. Also, upland rice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upland_rice).

Anyway, none of the cities are in a desert; they're surrounded by a few dozen miles of fields, either with good groundwater or with irrigation. Draj farms in enormous mud flats that go on for miles. Tyr is in a particularly fertile valley (probably with seasonal rivers flowing down from the Ringing Mountains). And two of the cities (Gulg and Nibenay) are in a rainforest. If you can support 20,000-30,000 people (and those may just be the urban populations) in a single city, you're not living in the desert.

And, honestly, although I'm a HârnMaster fan, I've never felt a need to figure out economies from the type of crops up, or the price of leather armor based on the actual size of Medieval cattle (far smaller than modern cattle), and so on. It's rice because that sounds good and is different from the usual pseudo-European setting being based on wheat and barley. I guess I could go with millet or beans, but the general water needs for most food crops look to be roughly similar, and growing periods end up being really significant; some rice types have short growing periods (90 days), so they're pretty advantageous.


Edit:
Oh, also: most writing is probably going to be on clay tablets with a stylus. Fire it to preserve it, just be really careful afterwards. If you want it really permanent, stone tablets. If you're filthy rich, papyrus or paper (from Nibenay and Gulg). I don't really see the general population being very literate - maybe nobles, and definitely templars. Merchant houses would naturally value literacy and employ scribes.

JusticeZero
2014-05-13, 09:48 AM
Eh, paper is easy to make out of whatever junk you have on hand, once you know how. It's cheap and easy, that's why we use it. It's not some arcane process with rare and exotic ingredients, it's something you do with the stems and other chaff left over from harvesting food. If it were a little bit less time consuming, it would be a grade school craft project.

Anxe
2014-05-13, 10:17 AM
Not super familiar with the setting, but what happened to all the metal? It's a post-apocalypse world right? Was there just no metal before the apocalypse? Did everyone lose track of where all the metal was?

If there is no metal then you need something else that is difficult to counterfeit. The ceramics make sense for small amounts as they're just not worth making in the large amounts to get rich that a counterfeiter would want. Bone could work for larger amounts. Or a rare stone. There could be some sort of stamp put on it by the local government to ensure the currency. Bone and stone still seem easy to counterfeit to me though. There's no molds, so a counterfeiter just has to carve the stone the same way the government official did.

LibraryOgre
2014-05-13, 10:40 AM
Not super familiar with the setting, but what happened to all the metal? It's a post-apocalypse world right? Was there just no metal before the apocalypse? Did everyone lose track of where all the metal was?

Athas is a pretty metal-poor world; now, there may be a ton of metal elsewhere, but the Tablelands, where the main setting is, is pretty small... the Dark Sun Wiki (http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Tablelands) puts it at about 100,000 square miles, which is smaller than the land area of Italy, Ecuador, or New Zealand. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area)

Anlashok
2014-05-13, 10:58 AM
The basic ceramic pieces have to get their value from somewhere, so I've figured that they're water tokens.

I'm pretty sure that's actually how it works in Dark Sun. Like I'm 90% sure I read that in one of the setting books.

Gildedragon
2014-05-13, 12:31 PM
Not super familiar with the setting, but what happened to all the metal? It's a post-apocalypse world right? Was there just no metal before the apocalypse? Did everyone lose track of where all the metal was?

If there is no metal then you need something else that is difficult to counterfeit. The ceramics make sense for small amounts as they're just not worth making in the large amounts to get rich that a counterfeiter would want. Bone could work for larger amounts. Or a rare stone. There could be some sort of stamp put on it by the local government to ensure the currency. Bone and stone still seem easy to counterfeit to me though. There's no molds, so a counterfeiter just has to carve the stone the same way the government official did.
Trick with bone or stone tokens is the time expenditure. Without metal tools the working of hard stones and bone (to a lesser extent) becomes a significant time expenditure. If one adds to that complex craftsmanship then the returns for counterfeiting become minimal.
For example: northwest coast nephrite labrettes (fairly small items) required several dozen man-hours a piece, an it is not an easily serializable task. Because of its hardness it cannot be cut and must be abraded. Also regional color variation can aid in counterfeit prevention. A clay or stone that has particular visual characteristics unique to a particular deposit (color, streaking, porosity) and high regional variation (cherts are a good example for this, as are obsidians, and to some extent jades) allow a power-group (state, chieftain, or family) to control the legitimate currency.

Also writing can occur on hides. As I understand leather is not rare in Athas.
Hah! In that case to "hide" something would be to make it explicit. Or alude to the arcane (in the non-magical sense) and obscure nature of writing.

Rhynn
2014-05-13, 01:58 PM
Not super familiar with the setting, but what happened to all the metal? It's a post-apocalypse world right? Was there just no metal before the apocalypse? Did everyone lose track of where all the metal was?

My explanation: most of it (in the Tablelands, once cradle of civilization) was dug up and processed and used, over thousands of years, and now mostly lies buried (frequently rusted/oxidized, where applicable) in ancient ruins under the sands. In my setting, scavengers regularly risk their lives to dig up metal items (and pieces of ancient technology) from the ruins.

JusticeZero
2014-05-13, 05:01 PM
Currency doesn't actually need to have much inherent value - gold is relatively useless, after all. But usually, currency isn't so much dictated as agreed on informally. Some places use pigs, some shells, some paper, some metal.. People get used to trading something very portable - deeds or the product itself - and financial services spring up around it.

Rhynn
2014-05-13, 07:21 PM
Currency doesn't actually need to have much inherent value - gold is relatively useless, after all.

Gold is rare and has been desired basically the world over; being rare and pretty makes it valuable on its own. So it does have an inherent value in that people want it for itself (to make into things).

It's not actually useful, though, so the value only exists in a bigger context, as it were - for people interested in immediate survival, it's not worth much of anything. In distant villages that see little trade with others, it wouldn't be worth much anything, either. It has value when there's some connection to people who want it for its rarity and attractiveness (an inherent value), or when you have an established system that puts value on it (a constructed value, if you will).

For an actual system of currency to develop, though - rather than just trade with precious metals, like Vikings shaving off bits of gold or silver torcs, etc. - you pretty much need a strong government that taxes people and accepts the currency it issues as payment for those taxes. That's not exactly an inherent value, but it amounts to the same; everyone finds the currency desirable, because either you can pay your taxes with it, or you can trade it to just about anyone who wants it for those same reasons.

International trade, of course, would get trickier; but shipping and arbitrage trading tended to involve bringing in something that was desired and leaving with something you wanted (or can sell back home), rather than just lugging over a bunch of coin - so you're sort of circumventing the exchange rates (although, depending on what you're taking and bringing, you may obviously have some money left over after buying what you're bringing back).

Arbitrary trade vessels are born in exceptional circumstances, like prisons (trading in cigarettes); these systems tend to still resemble systems based on precious metals, because the "currency" is usually rare and somewhat desirable. (Ask a smoker what he'd give for a cigarette after a few weeks without any...)

In the Medieval era and the Renaissance, real coin value still bore a strong link to the actual metal content; real value and face value might not be the same, which would cause problems because people (merchants, who knew about coins) might not accept a coin that had a metal value less than its face value. For instance, the 1344 Gold Florins (or Double Leopards) issued by Edward III of England were underweight (108 grains at 6 shillings) and were withdrawn, melted, and re-minted as Gold Nobles (138 grains at 6 shillings and 8 pennies) within months.

Aedilred
2014-05-13, 08:49 PM
What Rhynn said.

The reason precious metals were used as coins for so long is because they were inherently desirable. The face value of the coin usually exceeded the metal content - if not (like Edward III's ill-fated Florins) they got melted down and used for bullion. But it couldn't exceed it by much - about 90-95% silver content was common - because otherwise people got annoyed and refused to take the coins.

Our modern currency has pretty much broken the link between face value and inherent value. But in order to do that you need a strong central government and banking system, which people trust both to remain stable and not to swindle them, and a widespread understanding and acceptance of at least the principle of credit being worth as much as hard coin (if not actually the inner workings of credit itself). Both of these are pretty modern things, and in most pseudo-medieval fantasy worlds could be called into question. It's something to consider if you're going to go with a paper money system or non-precious coins (like modern cupronickel).

Of course, if it's made out of a non-metallic precious substance, the same rules apply as with metal coins, but with one potentially critical exception, and that's that you can't debase the coinage. If you have metal coins, any old chump can melt them down and mix in some lead or whatever. And that's where the government makes its money, in the small gap between precious metal content and face value on each coin. If the state runs into financial trouble, it will want to debase the coinage a bit (in modern terms, printing more money and therefore increasing inflation). If the face value and the inherent value are inextricably linked, they can't do this, and you end up with a currency which is rock solid (ha!) and universally trusted but useless to the government producing it. (At least, not unless they have magic or alchemy to mix in base materials and retain the properties of the precious stone.)

Anxe
2014-05-14, 09:32 AM
Trick with bone or stone tokens is the time expenditure. Without metal tools the working of hard stones and bone (to a lesser extent) becomes a significant time expenditure. If one adds to that complex craftsmanship then the returns for counterfeiting become minimal.
For example: northwest coast nephrite labrettes (fairly small items) required several dozen man-hours a piece, an it is not an easily serializable task. Because of its hardness it cannot be cut and must be abraded. Also regional color variation can aid in counterfeit prevention. A clay or stone that has particular visual characteristics unique to a particular deposit (color, streaking, porosity) and high regional variation (cherts are a good example for this, as are obsidians, and to some extent jades) allow a power-group (state, chieftain, or family) to control the legitimate currency.

Also writing can occur on hides. As I understand leather is not rare in Athas.
Hah! In that case to "hide" something would be to make it explicit. Or alude to the arcane (in the non-magical sense) and obscure nature of writing.

Okay, so the "coins" aren't worth counterfeiting because of the time expenditure. That means it wouldn't be worth the government's money to pay for people to produce the currency. Which indicates the government isn't paying people to do it.

1. It could be a tax on all stone masons (or bone masons, whatever).
2. It could be that the government keeps a population of slaves to produce the currency.
3. Or it could be that the wizard citizens of the government use magic to get around the problem of time expenditure. That would encourage the registration and tracking of wizards within the government to prevent counterfeiting as the wizards would be the only ones capable of doing it.

Rhynn
2014-05-14, 09:48 AM
3. Or it could be that the wizard citizens of the government use magic to get around the problem of time expenditure. That would encourage the registration and tracking of wizards within the government to prevent counterfeiting as the wizards would be the only ones capable of doing it.

Well, the Dark Sun default is that unlicensed (arcane) magic is unlawful and grounds for a death sentence; broadly, only the Sorcerer-King's defilers and templars can use wizardry, although there might be licenses sold to merchant houses and nobles. (Then again, maybe not - with psionics so common, they don't need wizards.)

Gildedragon
2014-05-14, 10:02 AM
It means that the act of counterfeiting produces an object of real value (provided you can get access to the right raw materials) It is like trying to mint "fake" gold coins using actual un-debased gold.
The worth of the item is in its craftsmanship, guarded construction techniques, and tightly controlled material

Anxe
2014-05-14, 11:11 AM
It means that the act of counterfeiting produces an object of real value (provided you can get access to the right raw materials) It is like trying to mint "fake" gold coins using actual un-debased gold.
The worth of the item is in its craftsmanship, guarded construction techniques, and tightly controlled material

I think I addressed the craftmanship point already. How do we get guarded construction techniques and controlled material though? If its bone or stone, those are easily accessible. What are your thoughts on those two points?

Gildedragon
2014-05-14, 11:47 AM
I think I addressed the craftmanship point already. How do we get guarded construction techniques and controlled material though? If its bone or stone, those are easily accessible. What are your thoughts on those two points?

For stone: you don't use any old rock for one. Secondly, you use rocks that have high regional variation: cherts, marble, obsidian and jade are great examples of this. The legit looking rock is then only found in certain closely clumped deposits. Control over these can be secured.
As to technique control: the polishing and working of hard rocks such as jade can be guarded secrets. What materials are used, how to deal with irregularities and impurities etc. it is not impossible to be self taught but it will be a great and unredeemed expenditure until one's got it down pat. And then come the complications of the coin: how to make swirls and tight shiny curves, how to bore a hole into it without metal, how to keep the rock from cracking, etc...

Bone is less easy to controll but dyes applied to the bone chits can be controlled

LibraryOgre
2014-05-14, 12:04 PM
I think I addressed the craftmanship point already. How do we get guarded construction techniques and controlled material though? If its bone or stone, those are easily accessible. What are your thoughts on those two points?

I think this is part of why ceramics are favored... using a combination of shape, painted/printed design, and glaze, you can achieve something that is, while not impossible to counterfeit, difficult to do so cheaply, while slave labor and economies of scale mean you can manufacture them relatively easily.

Jay R
2014-05-14, 01:32 PM
Wampum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wampum).

Any sort of mildly rare beads that can be strung together. It worked in pre-metallic America.

snowblizz
2014-05-14, 02:02 PM
Our modern currency has pretty much broken the link between face value and inherent value.

Not pretty much, but completely and entirely. At the press of a button massive amounts of value are created every day with no inherent value what so ever.


And that's where the government makes its money, in the small gap between precious metal content and face value on each coin. If the state runs into financial trouble, it will want to debase the coinage a bit (in modern terms, printing more money and therefore increasing inflation). If the face value and the inherent value are inextricably linked, they can't do this, and you end up with a currency which is rock solid (ha!) and universally trusted but useless to the government producing it.
Ah well, no (unless you are talking about some specific government). Government makes money by taking your (precious) resources, normally in exchange for providing you a service, ie taxation (I guess a discussion on whether this service is "worth" it falls afoul of the forum rules).
Providing a stable currency would be an important part of that service. Being the ones who control the supply of money is an important source of power. In fact it would most likely ensure great popular support for the government issuing said money. It would be a very win-win situation for the government.

You can run a profit from seigniorage of course, and many governments have tried to when pressed, but that tends to backfire in the longer run. The real world examples tend to be cautionary tales. There is some wiggle room of course, but it is modest in comparison to the values of money. If got my billions (25) and trillions (2) right the US in 2000 earned 1.25% of its tax revenue in seigniorage. It's huge amount, but still a very modest portion. I wouldn't say that's where the government makes it money. Nor that a solid currency would be useless to a government seeing as it would ensure they can provide one of the main reasons they have to exist in the first place. More governments have been toppled due to currency issues than any other reason I'd wager.

Also a government would definitely not want to debase its coinage, it is just that it forms a very easy and therefore tempting way to "fix" something short term (short term too often meaning until next election).

Aedilred
2014-05-14, 02:16 PM
Not pretty much, but completely and entirely. At the press of a button massive amounts of value are created every day with no inherent value what so ever.
This is true. But there are still occasional coins minted in precious metals reflecting inherent worth: the UK still mints gold sovereigns, for instance. The overwhelming majority of currency has no bearing on inherent value whatsoever, but the concept still clings on in some weird little nooks and crannies.

Obviously seignorage isn't the government's only source of revenue. But it's its only source of revenue on the coinage itself, and while running a profit from that is hard, you'd hope not to be making too big a loss. Running a 100% currency (assuming it's on a precious metal/stone standard) would be great in principle, but you'd have to raise taxes elsewhere to cover the cost of the minting.

snowblizz
2014-05-15, 11:09 AM
This is true. But there are still occasional coins minted in precious metals reflecting inherent worth: the UK still mints gold sovereigns, for instance. The overwhelming majority of currency has no bearing on inherent value whatsoever, but the concept still clings on in some weird little nooks and crannies.
These coins aren't really meant for circulation though right? They seem more a direct product for a collecting market. Kinda like commemorative coins.


Obviously seignorage isn't the government's only source of revenue. But it's its only source of revenue on the coinage itself, and while running a profit from that is hard, you'd hope not to be making too big a loss. Running a 100% currency (assuming it's on a precious metal/stone standard) would be great in principle, but you'd have to raise taxes elsewhere to cover the cost of the minting.
Sure, if you can, running a plus is always nice, though not always necessary. And yes you'd have to cover it from taxation, but that's probably not going to be a problem.
Funnily enough the US cent actually costs more to make than it's face value. That's not very good for "business".:smallbiggrin:
It was just that your post sounded like it was the main or only way to make money. I actually saw it mentioned that Zimbabwe gets most of its revenue form seignorage, but they aren't exactly doing great.

Gildedragon
2014-05-15, 12:02 PM
Actually the Mexican $20 coin used to be mostly silver until '06 iirc (the date not the silver factoid)