Entering a 3.5 Campaign (with lots of house rules)

[DurionArcanis]

I'm told it's a 3.5 game some Pathfinder rules, and I have been given a list of house rules. I'll probably enter the game around lv 7-8. I haven't had a chance to speak with the DM of this game yet, but I've been brainstorming my ideas with the friend who got me invited. What I know is very little aside from that magic items and decent gear tend to be hard to get (whether it's due to circumstance or worldbuild I'm not sure yet) and there's alot of undead.

I was told the group I'm joining is a tier 3 base group, and they've already established a well rounded party. From the brainstorming I was told a spellcaster or something with some CC ability would be helpful, and I was thinking going something along the lines of a Bard from the get-go. Bards don't get Trapfinding though which was mentioned so I looked into similar classes that do. Between the house rules (no xp penalty for multiclass, also 1st level class is considered favored for other purposes including a house rule bonus) and even before that my racial choice I've pretty much settled on a 2 class combo so far.

What I'm going for is a sort of knowledge seeker archetype (with special interest in Draconic lore). Racial choice is Deepwyrm Half-Drow, while class I intend to go for Dragon Shaman 5-6/Beguiler 2 to start. Looking to focus on Deep Dragons whenever possible for feats, breath weapon, totem and etc (DM allowing), and casting wise I'd likely be using alot of disguise self, party buffs, and lean towards useful enchantments depending on how things play out. At reaching level 9 I intend to get the Dragon Cohort feat and get a Pseudodragon cohort (DM allowing, he banned Leadership so it's iffy). I'm likely to invest some points into Alchemy and see if I can refine the Pseudodragon sleep venom to be more useful later, either that or the Pseudodragon itself will attempt to do so.

Other feats I'll be looking at as I build would of course be Draconic Heritage feats, including Double Dragon Aura and others that will help the party as a whole. Gear wise I intend to get my hands on a Hat of Disguise early on if not immediately (DM allowing) and go for a decent melee weapon and likely a decent to good ranged weapon and use poisons when I can. With the Beguiler's ability to use light armor I'm going to get myself some good light armor, maybe something with some useful abilities. I'll also be looking into any way to increase my ability to use my breath weapon.

So, how do you guys think this will hold up? I'm a little rusty but in 3.5 I've never really had a problem when I put my mind to building a good character. I like to focus on unique things for flavor, creating odd combos and such, but balancing and using the abilities to compliment each-other. Seems like Trapfinding would be useful for the party to have from what I've heard, and I can make good creative use of low-level Illusion/Enchantment spells (assuming they'd affect the target, I'll be limited with the undead and all) I don't think I'll need to put much into the Beguiler over time. Ontop of that the Acid breath weapon will prove handy for CC, I'll have aura buffs, and even a healing ability for in a pinch (Touch of Vitality at lv6). Building myself to be a versatile support as much as possible. Think it'd work well in a tier 3 group?

PS: I haven't thought much about how the Pseudodragon cohort might progress, but that's mainly because I need to clear it with the DM.

[Pesimismrocks]

An issue you will have is that you're not specialise enough for d&d 3.5. A beguiler tends to stay out of combat while a dragon shamba excels in the thick of it. Perhaps Dragonfire dept would be better. You'd be weaker comant wise, but it's makes a more powerful caster type character, and you'd still have use in close combat with your breath weapon, and the ino airings tend to be a lot better the auras. The only thing Shamans tend to do better at is infinite out of combat healing, but it seems you have that covered.

I am also going to ask what uour party are doing, because it look like your doing 3 out of the 4 standard roles.

1. Trapfinding / Scouting
2. Tanking / Massive Damage
3. Blasting / Illusion / Battlefield Control
4. Buffing / Debuffing / Healing

If your scout character doesn't have trapfinding that significantly lowers his value. It seems the only one you're not doing is 4.

[Trasilor]

Without knowing the rest of the party and their level of optimization, stating that they are "Tier 3" only indicates their potential.

Your build may very will be in line with the power of the group or it may not - we have nothing to compare against.

Regarding the build itself - if you are looking at a dragon inspired character, why not go with a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard build? The DFI build doesn't require lots of feats to become impressive. If you want to go all knowledge-y - get the Bardic Knack alternate class feature out of PHBII and Jack of all Trades Feat - now you can have a lower INT and still be viable. Combine with Knowledge Devotion and the skill trick Collector or Stories for awesomeness :smallamused:. Check out Bard's Handbook for more bardic awesomeness.

Beguiler's are best when working with a sneaky group against things that are affected by Mind Affecting spells. If the group is all 'Kick in the Door' then you may find much of your beguiler abilities pointless.

FYI: The best trap finder is the Summon Elemental reserve feat :smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go single-classed Beguiler with a one-level dip into any +1 spellcasting prestige class at 6th, Mindbender is the ideal choice but if you're good-aligned you may need to use Ruathar or Paragnostic Apostle instead. Take Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) (DMG) for a Pseudodragon familiar, which improves as you level up including being counted as higher HD and thus getting a higher poison DC. Your alignment must be within one step of the Pseudodragon's, so if you use Mindbender you'll need to be True Neutral, unless you manage to get a nongood Pseudodragon. Note that an Imp or Quasit are just as useful for a familiar, the Imp especially due to its Suggestion spell-like ability, and they both also have natural poison plus they can turn invisible and have fast healing, but you cannot have one if you're good aligned.

If you have your heart set on a breath attack, there are other ways of getting it (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1); apply that to a base race with decent ability score bonuses and/or retainable benefits, such as Warforged (you keep the Living Construct subtype and all the benefits it gives) or Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) (ability scores, size, swim speed).

In any case, if you have a breath weapon get the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon, it's one of the better crowd controls. I'd recommend a single level dip into Dragonfire Adept over multiclassing Dragon Shaman, to maximize your Beguiler spellcasting, plus you can use that breath attack every round and even put Endure Exposure on your allies so you don't need to worry about hitting them with it. Using Dragonborn to get a breath attack and getting full Beguiler casting is still the better choice, though.

If you want to add some extreme versatility to that, pick up the feats Magical Training (PGtF) for a spellbook and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), which allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. Per Rules Compendium you'll be able to add more spells to that spellbook just like a Wizard does, and you're considered to know those spells, so you can use Beguiler spell slots to cast Wizard spells, though you'll probably need to find the page the spell is on to cast it so it's not going to be useful in combat. I'd get some utility/situation spells and long buffs such as Rope Trick, (Mass) Resist Energy, Greater/Superior Resistance, Heart of Water, etc.

[DurionArcanis]

Well part of it was keeping a bard feel, and alot of it was I wanted a strong connection to dragons. I have been looking around and considering there's a few homebrewed classes already available there's a good chance if I find or write up a well done fusion of DFA and DS then he might allow it. He banned gestalt but he did state that some rules are negotiable, so he might allow a straight gestalt of the two classes and only those two classes while I can level up other classes as pure.

I don't know the rest of the party's info yet personally. I've inquired into it and I'll be opening discussion with the DM as soon as he gets back to me but for now I'm mostly fiddling with ideas. I love the illusions but I don't want to focus heavily on Beguiler. Playing straight Bard was something I thought of but there are drawbacks to doing that as well for my playstyle. IDK the group's playstyle but if I can work a good support role I can fill whatever niche is needed at any given time. I can be healer a bit and I can be buff and I can pretty much fill as a backup for many roles. With a fusion of DFA and DS I can do a ton of CC and power through with some low level illusion/enchantment and all the fun breath effects. If I get the Pseudodragon the DM might allow it to take a player class considering it would functionally be a cohort.

For now this is what I'm working with but I'm not sure yet. Alot of it will depend on the DM though since I just today made first contact and haven't heard back from him yet.

[John Longarrow]

Having been on the other side of the screen for this kind of discussion, I'd suggest you talk to the DM first about what the party needs and what will fit into their game before you start working on a character. This is especially true when dealinig with alignment,race, and class selection. I've had folks show up with a "Ready to play" character that they didn't discuss with me (or the party) that just did not work for our group.

If possible, shoot the DM an Email and give them a few of your ideas (not builds) to see what they think may work well in game.

Asking "Hey, as prep for the game, would a 1/2 deep drow with a fascination for deep dragons work?" should be about all you need to do. Likewise add in a few other ideas that you would be interested in playing.

You will find out quickly that if your ONE idea doesn't work for their game, it can be a much bigger issue that if idea ONE of TWELVE doesn't work.

Also, as it may become incredibly important for in game, ask how serious/light hearted the game is. Some times none of your ideas will work if you are building a bunch of serious characters for a fun beer and pretzels game.

[Pesimismrocks]

Why would you want to gestalt the classes? Also tell your DM that allowing some classes to gestalt is a bad idea because gestalt tends to be far more powerful then non gestalt. To keep it balanced, either everyone should take all classes in gestalt or all should take non in gestalt.

And the DFA v DS thing. You should multiclass, or choose one or the other. Focusing on support, combat, breath weapons, invocations, illusions will mean that your lack of specification will weigh you down heavily, and your character will find it difficult to do anything competently. A bard with dragonfire inspiration and snowflake wardance might be what your looking for. Also if you are a bard you can take obtain and draconic familiar, giving you a wyrmling. Personally I'd go with Beguiler 4 or 5/ DFA 1 or 2. Focusing on illusions with a little bit of combat effectiveness, and some cool 24hr tricks from DFA

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll want to start out with 7th level in an arcane spellcasting class to have Improved Familiar for a Pseudodragon. Just a caster level of 7th won't work, as it specifies a spellcaster level is required, which is the level your spells/day and highest level spells are based on. Chances are, 7th level Dragonfire Adept would probably work since invocations are equivalent to arcane spellcasting for certain prerequisites, so that would work out.

There are tons of Bard variants and alternate class features, from trading your songs for Inspire Awe, Spellbreaker Song, Healing Hymn, and Eberron Bard feats, to trading out your music for an animal companion and other Druid class features, to the Savage Bard and Divine Bard and Bardic Sage variants, racial substitution levels, prestige classes... You can give a Bard any feel you want. You could go Bard (variants) 7 or 8/ Dracolexi 1 or 2/ Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord 1 or 2/ Dracolexi 8 or 9.

For Dragonfire Adept, you could adapt Eldritch Theurge to require a minimum breath attack damage instead of eldritch blast, and go something like Beguiler 2/ DFA 3/ Eldritch Theurge, using Versatile Spellcaster to meet the 2nd level spells prerequisite. You should still get both invocations and breath effects from Eldritch Theurge, since you get 8+4 of those by 20th whereas a Warlock gets 12 invocations at 20th. You can just spend a feat on Draconic Aura, though it would take at least three feats for Double Draconic Aura. Maybe if you get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats it will be easier to do, and flaws are only limited to during character creation so making a character at 7th level your flaws can show up at any level your character already has.

[DurionArcanis]

One thing I know about it is it's an online game so the fun beer and pretzels type game is probably a no-go. Knowing the player who invited me it's even less likely. I'm making the character with an intended balance between them anyways so I can lean either way depending on the group. I've shot him a message on facebook but haven't heard back yet.

The reason I brought up gestalt is because it's something I've seen that others have done regarding DFA/DS simply because DFA is low t3 at best, and DS is generally seen as t4-5. Alot of people seem to play with a gestalting classes lower than t3.

The campaign's already existing and well along from what I know, and I don't know squat about the other players yet because I'm waiting on the DM to reply, I only got his contact info today. With a proper build considering what little I know I can serve as a backup in alot of things. Primary focus is support, regardless. Illusions/enchantment can serve for some support, especially if used well, the Auras from DS are some wicked support if used properly, and the breath attacks when modified (ie entangling exhalation) can serve well. Between enchantments and entangling exhalation I can CC well. Breath and such would be used more for support than for actual damaging, only for pure damage in a pinch or as a way to take out a bunch of weak minions.

I also like to keep in mind my own problems particularly when I shoot for unusual races, making sure I have adequate means of disguise if the situation requires it. One of the major reasons I like the Deepwyrm variant and Hat of Disguise.

I am allowed two flaws and one trait apparently, and I don't think I want Improved Familiar. With Improved Familiar you can't gain class levels iirc, regardless of the intelligence of a creature.

Also, a final word for now I suppose, I'm not seeking optimization. I'm seeking viability and versatility with a good heavy dragon power/knowledge seeker flavor. Friend of dragons and student of dragons in general. Nothing says the student can't take other courses as well though, hence Beguiler, suiting the Drow connections to secrecy and trickery, as well as the ideals of seeking truth (and having power over perceived truth.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also, a final word for now I suppose, I'm not seeking optimization. I'm seeking viability and versatility with a good heavy dragon power/knowledge seeker flavor. Friend of dragons and student of dragons in general. Nothing says the student can't take other courses as well though, hence Beguiler, suiting the Drow connections to secrecy and trickery, as well as the ideals of seeking truth (and having power over perceived truth.)

Beguiler into Dracolexi (http://dndtools.eu/classes/dracolexi/) (dragon-flavored seeker of knowledge and draconic words of power, very similar to Loremaster) would probably be perfect, then.

Take the feat Dragon Cohort from the Draconomicon, you don't get followers like Leadership but you get to count the dragon's ECL as three lower, effectively giving it a -3 level adjustment for purposes of what its level can be as your cohort. A Pseudodragon is listed as ECL 4 for purposes of that feat, so it would be considered a 1st level creature when determining how many class levels it can have. That may be a typo since a Pseudodragon is normally ECL 5, but I'm not one to argue with the RAW.

[DurionArcanis]

I already said in the OP that I'm looking at Dragon Cohort so I'm way ahead of you there. As for Dracolexi, it looks interesting but it's geared towards language and while I meant knowledge more along the lines of power and ways, not so much history and culture. Though he would be interested to learn any of it, DFA and DS are the best for aspiring to emulate dragons. Sure I can use feats for different things as well, but doing that would make anything I go for entirely too feat dependent to become what I'm attempting.

[Vaz]

An issue you will have is that you're not specialise enough for d&d 3.5. A beguiler tends to stay out of combat while a dragon shamba excels in the thick of it. Perhaps Dragonfire dept would be better. You'd be weaker comant wise, but it's makes a more powerful caster type character, and you'd still have use in close combat with your breath weapon, and the ino airings tend to be a lot better the auras. The only thing Shamans tend to do better at is infinite out of combat healing, but it seems you have that covered.

I am also going to ask what uour party are doing, because it look like your doing 3 out of the 4 standard roles.

1. Trapfinding / Scouting
2. Tanking / Massive Damage
3. Blasting / Illusion / Battlefield Control
4. Buffing / Debuffing / Healing

If your scout character doesn't have trapfinding that significantly lowers his value. It seems the only one you're not doing is 4.

Dude, out of interest, what on earth is your Avatar doing to that robot dog o.O?

[DurionArcanis]

There is no functional scout/trapper in the party from what I can tell. This is what we have

Melee cleric (no MM)
Duskblade
Charging Warblade
Homebrew Mage (trans/ill/evo specialist wis with option of getting abj or div)
Artificer Cohort