Power level of archdevils and celestials

[Synar]

In the Book of Vile Darkness, Bel is described to have a CR of 20, while being an archdevil ruling on a 1/7 of hells... I mean a pit fiend is already CR 19, and a solar CR 21! Which mean that either archdevils/ demon lords are underpowered (Asmodeus, the only one casting like a level 20 character, with a CR of 30, is good enough, but casting like a level 13 wizard for one of the most powerful being in existence is just ridiculous), or pit fiends and solar are really, really uncommon.
But people chain gating solars always consider that they are plenty of them. That would not work if there were only, like, 3 Solars in existence. And what happen when a Solar dies? Is their number a constant? Or are weak angels automatically produced and rise through the ranks?

So what do you think?


(And am I the only one thinking that deities are also underpowered?)(Plus, some epic devils are massively more powerful than the archdevils...)

[Sir Chuckles]

Deities, especially the ones given stat blocks in 3.0's Deities & Demigods, are surprisingly weak for what they are. Part of it is due to being printed in 3.0, but the main issue is that they're built not by we OotS forum goers and it's 10-year veterans of the system, but by people who fight Balors by having the Wizard cast Quicken True Strike on himself and use Rapid Shot.

Not all of them are meant to be optimized, and some of the class lists are certainly impressive (Boccob being Wizard 20/Cleric 20), but most strong enemies in 3.X that don't have 15+ levels in a T1/T2 class are mostly just massive piles numbers.

[Eldan]

Planescape assumes that Solars are almost on the power level of gods. Very rare. Most gods probably don't have any.

That said, Bel has a lot of political advantages. In addition to his personal powers, he controls a large amount of the resources of hell, plus he has home advantage and controls a layer.

That said, yeah. Those statblocks are crap.

[TuggyNE]

In the Book of Vile Darkness, Bel is described to have a CR of 20, while being an archdevil ruling on a 1/7 of hells...

Isn't that just an aspect or some such copout? If so, no problem: his full self would presumably be rather stronger.


But people chain gating solars always consider that they are plenty of them. That would not work if there were only, like, 3 Solars in existence.

Solar chain-gating fails for other reasons, most notably that solars do not normally prepare gate and do not have it as an SLA. Titans, now, those are fine. Who knows how many of those there are, but since there are not merely titans, but presumably much rarer elder titans, it seems reasonable to suppose you can get at least a few hundred titans with a standard action.

[chainer1216]

Wasn't Bel just a placeholder who was later replaced by the daughter of one of the other lords of the nine?

[Eldan]

Oh, and if you want more powerful versions, google "Gates of Hell" by Dicefreaks.

[Chronos]

Quoth Sir Chuckles:

Not all of them are meant to be optimized, and some of the class lists are certainly impressive (Boccob being Wizard 20/Cleric 20),...
I don't know how impressive that really is... Yeah, it's from early in the system, but surely they knew of the existence of the Mystic Theurge class. He could have replaced ten of those levels with some other class, and still have had full wiz/clr casting.

[Sir Chuckles]

I don't know how impressive that really is... Yeah, it's from early in the system, but surely they knew of the existence of the Mystic Theurge class. He could have replaced ten of those levels with some other class, and still have had full wiz/clr casting.

Impressive in that they didn't just slap him up to Wizard 40, impressive in the raw numbers of it.
Kord is a Fighter 20/Barbarian 20. The same exactly levels as Hercules. Moradin is an Expert.

[Synar]

Well,that may be impressive, but for me, gods should not be comparable to mortals in terms of power levels. They should be restricted in how tehy can affect the material world by fluff or crunch, but their full power should not merely be the power of an epic PC. AS they don't get disintegrate: they get "you stop existing". They don't get Disjunction: they get "hey, I'm the god of magic, I choose what magic work and what do not". So they should NOT have class levels, their power should be mesured with another system. But that is just how I like my deities system, if others prefer to have less powerful deities, I guess that's okay.

But all of archdevils? Not just Bel: they are all terrible for their power level. Xykon get more powerful spells than the most powerful devil in existence, and one of the most powerful being. Wish as an SLA is cool, except it is only once per day, and either you do broken things with it, or it is not very useful for mimicing spells. And beside Asmodeus, they do not get a lot of high level spells. Raw combat power, very high saves, and casting like a 15 level wizard is fine, but a bit disapointing for such beings. Especially when dragons and solars get more, and more powerful, high level spells.

<Quote"Oh, and if you want more powerful versions, google "Gates of Hell" by Dicefreaks. ">
Thanks!

[Eldan]

Well, they do get Salient Divine Abilities, in addition to their class levels. Those are pretty much intended to do what you want them to. They don't often succeed, but some do.

Life or Death and Hand of Death (or, to a lesser degree, Annihilating Strike) pretty much both are "You stop existing". Instant Counterspell, especially combined with some wizard levels and some others like Arcane Mastery and Spontaneous Wizard spells, means that the deity just laughs at anyone using magic against it.

[Brookshw]

Wasn't Bel just a placeholder who was later replaced by the daughter of one of the other lords of the nine?

I believe you're thinking of the hag countess (dont ask me to spell it, I'll fail). Canonfire has some good info for Bel if you're looking for some online fluff.

[Synar]

I looked at "Gates of Hell", and I must say this is more the power level I had in mind for the lords of the nines before opening BoVD. They are in fact, pretty cool. But there is so much fluff I fear I will never have the time to read it entirely. :smallbiggrin: Thanks!

[jedipotter]

So what do you think?


(And am I the only one thinking that deities are also underpowered?)(Plus, some epic devils are massively more powerful than the archdevils...)

This has always been a problem in D&D. Deities, demon lords ans archdevils have always been underpowered. For a couple reasons:

1. They are made to be the high level foes. Once you get past 15 level or so, you should be fighting them. So they try to make them ''tough'', but you can still take them out.

2. They are made to be ''tough'' in the eyes of the way the Game Designers think is ''tough''. The GD's don't optimize or even make slightly powerful characters. They just make average characters. And the deities and such are tough for average characters.

3. The GD's never optimize, and tone down much more then they tone up. So they don't make the deity or such too good, as they don't think along them lines.