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Peregrine
2007-02-13, 10:14 AM
Read (Int; Trained Only)

This skill allows you to read and understand written languages. Use it when you need to interpret an ancient document, decipher an obscure code or language, or quickly skim over the enemy's secret messages to discover their plans.

Check
The DC to read a particular text varies according to the circumstances on the table below. The base DC is 10; add to this all modifiers that apply to obtain the final DC.

If the check succeeds, you understand the meaning of the text. If the check fails by 5 or less, you have only a vague impression of what the text means. If the check fails by more than 10, you simply cannot understand the text.

If the check fails by 10 or less, but more than 5, you may draw a false conclusion from the text. This may follow the previous rules for Decipher Script (make a Wisdom check, DC 5, to avoid drawing a false conclusion), or it may otherwise be at the DM's option.

If the check succeeds by 5 or more, the reading takes less time than expected, as if the DC had been raised by 5 (or a multiple thereof). Finishing faster than expected cannot reduce the reading time below a full-round action for one page; unless you deliberately attempt to read faster than this, reading a page takes at least one round.

{table=head]Circumstance|Read DC Modifier
Language is one you know|0
Language is a jargon, dialect or variant of one you know|+5
Language is closely related to one you know|+10
Language is distantly related to one you know|+20
Language is not at all related to any you know|+401
Script is a typical one for the language|0
Script is not normal for this language, but is one you otherwise know|+5
Script is a simple cipher, or an unfamiliar but similar writing system|+10
Script is a complex cipher, or a very different writing system|+20
You have a translation from the language or script2|-5
You have a detailed reference on the language or script2|-10
Writing is clearly legible|0
Writing is scrawled carelessly, or is somewhat faded or damaged|+5
Writing is very poorly done, or is very faded or damaged|+10
Style is plain and clear|0
Style is somewhat unclear, technical or complex|+5
Style is very obscure or technical, or the message is written 'between the lines'3|+10
Style is a code and does not suggest the intended meaning at all3|+20
You are familiar with the style used or have a reference for it2|-5
Reading at normal speed, one page per minute|0
Reading at double speed, one page per five rounds|+5
Reading at one page per two rounds|+10
Reading one page in a round|+15
Reading one page as a standard action|+20
Reading a page in a glance, as a free action4|+40
Reading at half speed, one page per two minutes5|-5
Taking notes as you decipher the writing2|-5[/table]
1 You must have a secondary source to decipher a language not related to any you know.
2 Secondary sources are only of use when the language, script or style is not one you know. Using one doubles the time required. The same applies to taking notes, for which you also need something to write with (and a writing surface, unless you scribble in the margins).
3 The literal reading of the text is assumed to be 'plain and clear', unless otherwise specified.
4 You cannot use any secondary sources when glancing at a page.
5 Increase the modifier by -5 for each additional doubling. Follow normal mathematical rules for this doubling, i.e. two minutes per page, then four minutes, then eight minutes, etc.

Action
Normally, reading the equivalent of a single page of writing takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions). Reading faster or slower than this changes the DC, as noted above.

Reading in combat provokes attacks of opportunity.

Try Again
Yes, if circumstances change to reduce the DC (such as reading more slowly the second time), or your modifiers (skill ranks, Int modifier, etc.) increase.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Read, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls.

Notes
This skill supersedes Decipher Script. To ease updating of existing material to use this skill, characters with ranks in Decipher Script can simply replace them with ranks in this skill, and classes with Decipher Script on their class skills list (bard, rogue, wizard, etc.) can replace it with this skill.

Instead of barbarians 'gaining' Illiteracy, all other classes instead gain Literacy, at the DM's option (for example, it may be appropriate not to give this to commoners). This class feature enables a character to make untrained Read checks. Since reading something written in a language you speak, using the common script and written legibly, without rushing or looking for hidden meanings, has a DC of 10, literate characters can take 10 to perform such ordinary reading tasks without needing to take ranks in Read, as long as they do not have an Int penalty.

Buying off illiteracy now means buying a rank in Read, and therefore takes two skill points as normal. (At least, as I read the rules, you need a whole rank before you are considered trained. I could very well be wrong. Also note that this will actually put them better off than the average literate character, as they have 1 rank in the skill now. If this is a problem for you, make Illiteracy give a -1 penalty to Read checks even if they do become trained.)

Obviously, this variant is only intended for people like me with way too much attention to detail, who would map out the relations between languages and scripts, and who would include such a plot-critical text that matters like its style and legibility became important.

That table may look daunting, but even people like myself would only use this with prior preparation, so it's not something you'd have to remember and apply on the fly.

Abardam
2007-02-13, 10:26 AM
Too... much... attention to detail... brain... can't handle...

So does this mean that your players will at some point have to read stuff while in combat?

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-13, 10:37 AM
Awesome. I love the flavor.

One thing, though; maybe I'm just american, but I probably have both a 10+ Int and a maxed Read skill (heck, at this point I probably even have Skill Focus). Given this, I certainly cannot take 10 to read a newspaper in German, no matter what the circumstances.

That said, any campaign where you need to read a note in a foreign language in combat is one I wish I was a part of.

Peregrine
2007-02-13, 11:10 AM
Alas, I'm not running any games myself, or else I probably would make some players try to read the enemy's battle plans while combat is going on around them. :smalltongue: Really, I just slipped that in there because it made sense to specify, just in case.

I might have to do something about taking 10. The easiest thing would be to change the base DC to 10 rather than 0; then, literate characters do not automatically succeed on everyday reading tasks, but they may take 10 to do so.

I'm also thinking of changing it so that you don't need to specify that you read faster; you automatically take less time if you beat the DC by 5 or more.

Maryring
2007-02-13, 12:04 PM
I have to admit I only glanced at it, but wouldn't it be better to rather add these abilities to Dechiper Script rather than making it a new skill?

Peregrine
2007-02-13, 12:50 PM
I have to admit I only glanced at it, but wouldn't it be better to rather add these abilities to Dechiper Script rather than making it a new skill?

If you did, it would merely be a naming decision. I gave it a different name because I felt that the skill was different enough from Decipher Script, in operation and in what that name implies, that it merited a new name. You can go on calling it Decipher Script if you like, but it's not really just a matter of 'add these abilities'.

Edited the first post to include my previously-pondered changes, taking away the 'take 10 to read German' problem (and not incidentally, removing all examples using real-world languages).

Raveler1
2007-02-13, 06:30 PM
For some reason, this immediately suggested the following feats to me:

Speed Reading [General]
Prerequisites: Int 13+, 1 rank of Read skill
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to read checks, and a +2 synergy bonus to Use Magic Device checks that involve a scroll. This bonus stacks with the +2 synergy bonus from having 5 ranks in the Read skill.

Improved Speed Reading [General]
Prerequisites: Int 15+, 10 ranks of Read skill, Speed Reading
Benefit: You gain an additional +4 bonus to read checks, stacking with the bonus from Speed Reading, and may cast spells from a scroll as if the casting were Quickened.

Firestar27
2007-02-13, 06:48 PM
This would make a lot of sense in real life but not in DnD (or any other RPG). In DnD, every class but Barbarian can read, and there is no reason to complicate the game by forcing people to make read checks. According to this, every class would have to put a rank in read, even though every class can read. It just complicates things. Would you ever need it? I mean, instead of "The note says, 'I will meet you at dawn'", you get, "Make a read check, Ok an 8? After 30 seconds of reading, you can tell that the note says 'I will meet you at dawn'". Besides, in order to read things in a language that you don't actually know, you use decipher script. Still interesting though.

Raveler1
2007-02-13, 07:33 PM
Firestar, I believe the point here was that this skill would replace decipher script. And in order to make any read check, you only need one skill point in read - and after that, under normal conditions, you can "take ten" on any checks that involve simply reading. It's conditions with strange texts, under combat, or the like that the actual use of a skill check would come into play.

Peregrine
2007-02-13, 08:17 PM
Actually, if you see the Notes section, you'll see that the Literacy class feature (which everyone but barbarians gets) allows untrained Read checks. Take 10 to read anything normal, unless you have an Int penalty, in which case you can just read it slowly and still take 10.

To pull apart your example further, "I will meet you at dawn" is nowhere near a whole page (10 full-round actions). I'd reckon it at a tenth of a page for this purpose, so one round, two if you're reading slowly. (You know what, even then it's still too slow. Maybe I'll make it so you can reduce it to a standard action if it's short enough, a full round for reading slowly.)

I know I tend to overcomplicate things in my rules. But I like things to make sense. Decipher Script just... doesn't. There's no good measure for when something is simply readable by a literate character, and when it needs to be Deciphered. It's down to the DM's decision on whether she wants her players to read it/find someone who can read it, or have to Decipher it. As Rich Burlew said in his Diplomacy rewrite (although Diplomacy was much worse than Decipher Script), "I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want."

Plus my rewrite lets it be used for things like codes and ciphers, although you could cherry-pick these ideas and add them to Decipher Script.

Raistlin1040
2007-02-13, 08:35 PM
My first thought is why? What possible point could there be to taking ranks other thant to gain literacy (Barbarian)

Mewtarthio
2007-02-13, 08:43 PM
Bear in mind that taking twenty is effectively useless with this skill. You can read at four minutes per page and take ten to get the same effect. That may have been intentional, but it merits pointing out.

Also note that, if somebody uses a complex cypher, anyone who speaks the encoder's language can decode the entire page in four minutes untrained using the above trick. The same thing applies to distantly related languages and coded messages--If I read it right, if somebody writes "I think Mister Abernathy is cute. I'd so like to go out with him. We could, like, buy ponies and drink champagne and I bet he'd get me that CUTE sweater I was talking about!", which is code for "set the bomb in apartment 115 and rig it to blow at 1400 hours," anyone who speaks English will understand this if they only spend four minutes looking over it!

NullAshton
2007-02-13, 08:50 PM
Alas, I'm not running any games myself, or else I probably would make some players try to read the enemy's battle plans while combat is going on around them. :smalltongue: Really, I just slipped that in there because it made sense to specify, just in case.

I might have to do something about taking 10. The easiest thing would be to change the base DC to 10 rather than 0; then, literate characters do not automatically succeed on everyday reading tasks, but they may take 10 to do so.

I'm also thinking of changing it so that you don't need to specify that you read faster; you automatically take less time if you beat the DC by 5 or more.

Taking 10 is never good. Because then you fall into the trap of people with a 9 in int being unable to read books normally...

Mewtarthio
2007-02-13, 09:11 PM
Taking 10 is never good. Because then you fall into the trap of people with a 9 in int being unable to read books normally...

Well, they're less bright then normal, so either they read twice as slowly or they take special remedial courses (read: buy a skill point) to improve their reading skills to normal levels. What's wrong with that?

Peregrine
2007-02-13, 10:10 PM
My first thought is why? What possible point could there be to taking ranks other thant to gain literacy (Barbarian)

All the reasons you'd take Decipher Script, only now it's much clearer, and allows you to do a lot more interesting things! :smallbiggrin: You can crack codes, analyse poetry, translate dead languages...


Bear in mind that taking twenty is effectively useless with this skill. You can read at four minutes per page and take ten to get the same effect. That may have been intentional, but it merits pointing out.

Also note that, if somebody uses a complex cypher, anyone who speaks the encoder's language can decode the entire page in four minutes untrained using the above trick. The same thing applies to distantly related languages and coded messages--If I read it right, if somebody writes "I think Mister Abernathy is cute. I'd so like to go out with him. We could, like, buy ponies and drink champagne and I bet he'd get me that CUTE sweater I was talking about!", which is code for "set the bomb in apartment 115 and rig it to blow at 1400 hours," anyone who speaks English will understand this if they only spend four minutes looking over it!

Thank you for pulling this apart. :smallsmile:

Now, I was writing this at like 2am, so I knew something would slip through. And yeah, putting limits on what you can do if you extend the time would be that something.

I shall have to think on this more. The easiest thing would be to require some sort of knowledge or reference, as it does for completely foreign languages. Would that work, though?

And taking 20... yeah, that's an odd case. The simple answer is, you can't, because there are consequences for failure (you can't try again without decreasing the DC, plus you might misunderstand it).

But let's look at it anyway. You take 20 minutes to read over a page... but in the end you treat it like you got a 20, which for an ordinary text means you read it in two rounds. So you read it in 19 minutes 12 seconds (really it should be 15 but let's not split rounds here).

On the other hand, with this skill, your time taken is actually matched to your check result, so the normal 'multiply it by 20' thing doesn't really work. That is, we should be able to apply this to all preceding attempts too. Let's see... DC 10... attempts 1-9 fail after one minute, attempts 10-14 succeed after one minute, attempts 15-19 succeed after 30 seconds, attempt 20 takes two rounds, for a grand total of 16 minutes 42 seconds. Yeah. Let's just say 'you can't' and leave it at that. :smallwink:

Mewtarthio
2007-02-13, 11:31 PM
All the reasons you'd take Decipher Script, only now it's much clearer, and allows you to do a lot more interesting things! :smallbiggrin: You can crack codes, analyse poetry, translate dead languages...



Thank you for pulling this apart. :smallsmile:

Now, I was writing this at like 2am, so I knew something would slip through. And yeah, putting limits on what you can do if you extend the time would be that something.

I shall have to think on this more. The easiest thing would be to require some sort of knowledge or reference, as it does for completely foreign languages. Would that work, though?

And taking 20... yeah, that's an odd case. The simple answer is, you can't, because there are consequences for failure (you can't try again without decreasing the DC, plus you might misunderstand it).

But let's look at it anyway. You take 20 minutes to read over a page... but in the end you treat it like you got a 20, which for an ordinary text means you read it in two rounds. So you read it in 19 minutes 12 seconds (really it should be 15 but let's not split rounds here).

On the other hand, with this skill, your time taken is actually matched to your check result, so the normal 'multiply it by 20' thing doesn't really work. That is, we should be able to apply this to all preceding attempts too. Let's see... DC 10... attempts 1-9 fail after one minute, attempts 10-14 succeed after one minute, attempts 15-19 succeed after 30 seconds, attempt 20 takes two rounds, for a grand total of 16 minutes 42 seconds. Yeah. Let's just say 'you can't' and leave it at that. :smallwink:

But you don't need to take twenty. As I said in the first paragraph, if something requires a roll of 20 to succeed, you can spend four minutes to reduce it down to 10 and then take 10 on it. If taking 10 is barred (which shouldn't be done unless you want everyone to have a fifty percent chance of reading their own language), you can spend sixteen minutes to reduce the DC by 20, automatically succeeding. Using my example, somebody could take that message (coded style, DC +20), rewrite it in Latin (distant relation, DC +20), transliterate to Mandarin Chinese (very different writing system, DC +20), and then light the paper on fire and let it burn a few seconds (badly damaged, DC +10), making a total DC of 80. You'd only need to study it for, what, four and a half hours to take 10 and fully understand it? That's not a trivial amount of time, but it's still unrealistic, and you've still got enough time to pre-empt the plot if you start at 0900 hours.

Peregrine
2007-02-13, 11:43 PM
I know. As I said, there should be some sort of restriction on what exactly you can do given more time. And part of that would be making it so you can't figure out alien scripts or phrase codes without a reference, just like for completely unrelated languages.

My comments on taking 20 were only a comparison of the time increase DC modifiers versus the time increase for taking 20. And my conclusion was that they're irreconcilable, so I settled for saying you just can't take 20. What you can (or could) do with that 20, is an entirely different problem.

And are you sure about that time? DC 80... you need to reduce it by 70 to take 10... that's 35 doublings, or 2^35 minutes = 65,000+ years.

Half that if you take notes as you go. :smallwink:

Edit: Brain not work good. Too much read-read, learn stuff for test. Me sorry.

70/5 = 14, not 70/2 = 35. But 2^14 minutes is over 11 days.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-14, 12:29 AM
I know. As I said, there should be some sort of restriction on what exactly you can do given more time. And part of that would be making it so you can't figure out alien scripts or phrase codes without a reference, just like for completely unrelated languages.

My comments on taking 20 were only a comparison of the time increase DC modifiers versus the time increase for taking 20. And my conclusion was that they're irreconcilable, so I settled for saying you just can't take 20. What you can (or could) do with that 20, is an entirely different problem.

And are you sure about that time? DC 80... you need to reduce it by 70 to take 10... that's 35 doublings, or 2^35 minutes = 65,000+ years.

Half that if you take notes as you go. :smallwink:

Edit: Brain not work good. Too much read-read, learn stuff for test. Me sorry.

70/5 = 14, not 70/2 = 35. But 2^14 minutes is over 11 days.

*double-checks* Whoops. My bad. I must've divided by an extra sixty. Yeah, that's more reasonable. Still, my point about taking ten to solve an obscure code still stands. Instead of raising the time by four minutes and taking twenty (ie spending eighty minutes, though it should be noted you still have a five percent chance of solving it in four), you can reduce the DC by twenty by spending 2^4 = 16 minutes. That lets you automatically figure out any message that uses obscure code words (eg my Mister Abernathy letter), complex cyphers/symbols (transliterated to Mandarin Chinese), or is written in a distantly-related language (such as Latin). That's for anyone of average intelligence with no particular aptitude for reading. Someone of above-average intelligence who enjoys reading (let's assume a first-level, 12-INT guy with maxxed out Read) can do it in eight minutes. We're talking about a guy who can probably write a decent paper on a novel or short story, assuming he takes good notes (or is familiar with that author). Speaking of good notes, notes actually do you no good. You can read at half speed while taking notes for a -5 to the DC. You can read while comparing with a secondary source for -5 to the DC. You can just read at half speed for a -5 to the DC. A few suggestions:

The DC reduction for slow reading needs to be lowered. I'd say -2 would work better. As it is right now, sixteen minutes of reading takes a whopping 20 off of the DC, which can completely negate high-level encryption. Leave the modifications for secondary sources and note-taking as they are.
There should be some sort of cap on how long you can spend studying a page before you figure it out.
The DC for certain forms of coding should be increased.
Some sort of limits should be imposed on what you glean from a text, depending on the DC or the DC modifiers. As it stands, you either know it perfectly or can't make heads or tails of it.

Peregrine
2007-02-14, 12:48 AM
Speaking of good notes, notes actually do you no good. You can read at half speed while taking notes for a -5 to the DC. You can read while comparing with a secondary source for -5 to the DC. You can just read at half speed for a -5 to the DC.

Yeah, I know. But you can stack those. ...but you can stack the time increases. Bother.


The DC reduction for slow reading needs to be lowered. I'd say -2 would work better. As it is right now, sixteen minutes of reading takes a whopping 20 off of the DC, which can completely negate high-level encryption. Leave the modifications for secondary sources and note-taking as they are.

Yeah, that's good. I just made everything a multiple of 5 to start with, but there was a niggling voice telling me to throw in some 2s. The time modifications would be prime material for that.


There should be some sort of cap on how long you can spend studying a page before you figure it out.

Agreed. If time doublings are now -2 to the DC, how about a limit of -10 = 32 minutes/page?

Note that one side effect of this would be for people with an Int penalty. Previously, no character of above animal (3+) Intelligence would have taken more than double time to read (Int modifier is -4 or better). If doubling is now only worth -2 DC, Int 3-5 characters now take four minutes per page as a base rate. But that's okay by me.


The DC for certain forms of coding should be increased.

Or rather, I should be clearer on what constitutes 'complex, but doable', and what constitutes 'yeah, right'.


Some sort of limits should be imposed on what you glean from a text, depending on the DC or the DC modifiers. As it stands, you either know it perfectly or can't make heads or tails of it.

I was thinking about that. You're not quite right, a failure by 5 or less gets you the gist of a message, probably at least its topic (e.g. 'You know it's a battle plan'). But I was also thinking that some of the higher DC things should have just such a limit as you describe (trying to read Latin without a reference would probably only get you the vague sense of the words)...

(I could also make 'get the general idea rather than specifics' a -5 to the DC, effectively equivalent to the failure by 5 or less... good grief, somebody stop me before I get even more carried away with the size of the modifier table! :smalleek:)

Matthew
2007-02-14, 07:33 PM
Seems good. An impressive amount of detail.