Defending Azure city - spoiler

[pendell]

Okay folks, we've all seen #413 now .. what do you think of Shojo's defense plan?

My main concern is that he's putting all his troops on the wall. I would keep 1/3rd of them back as a reserve, in order to meet the breach when it comes. 'He who defends everywhere, defends nowhere'. Spreading all the troops around the city circumference means that when the bad guys make a breach and send in most of their forces, there's only a thin smattering of troops to oppose them, and no time to organize a coherent counterattack. Especially if some feints are happening at the same time to draw attention away from the main attack.

My second concern is that all his troops are infantry. There seem to be no troops with any mobility whatsoever. Thus there will be no sally, should the opportunity presents itself.

My third concern is leaving the Paladins to guard the tower -- taking our most effective combat units and removing them from the battle. I would prefer to keep them as a ready reserve, keep the bad guys from getting close to the tower in the first place.

After all, if the battle reaches the point where the Paladins have to make a last stand around the tower, the battle's already lost. They will be defeated by overwhelming numbers. I would prefer to keep them available for use at the critical moment.

This does leave the possibility open for an end run by Xykon and his high-level minions directly for the tower while the Paladins are occupied elsewhere -- but hey, they're NPCs, they've got no chance of stopping Xykon anyway. Leave Roy and company behind to guard the tower and kill Xykon. Use the Paladins in the main battle against the hobgoblin horde where they might do some good, but let the PCs fight the chief villain. That's what they're here for.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Doglord]

Well thought out. I quite agree with you.

[dr4Kan]

<snip> My third concern is leaving the Paladins to guard the tower -- taking our most effective combat units and removing them from the battle. I would prefer to keep them as a ready reserve, keep the bad guys from getting close to the tower in the first place. <snip>

Well the Sapphire Guard, a.k.a. the Paladins, were formed to protect the gate...which is in the sapphire...which is in the throne...which is in the tower...
If Xykon's forces get in the tower...it's pretty much over...so Hinjo's putting the Paladin's there just in case some of the forces get through to prevent them from getting in the tower...and not all of Xykon's forces will get through...
So basically...his best forces will end up facing fewer of the enemy if there is a breach...
If the Paladins were involved in the main fighting...if there is a breach...they will have a straight shot to the tower...

[Giscard76]

My main concern is that he's putting all his troops on the wall. I would keep 1/3rd of them back as a reserve, in order to meet the breach when it comes. 'He who defends everywhere, defends nowhere'. Spreading all the troops around the city circumference means that when the bad guys make a breach and send in most of their forces, there's only a thin smattering of troops to oppose them, and no time to organize a coherent counterattack. Especially if some feints are happening at the same time to draw attention away from the main attack.

Well the wall does no good if there is no one there to deffend it. having too few men on the wall is worse than having none. Besides there is a political demention as well... abandon the wall or hold it with a small force and you have rampaging zombies and Hobgoblins inside the city... lots of Cirvilian casulties, something a ruler has to avoid if at all posible especialy one who is new to his throne.


My second concern is that all his troops are infantry. There seem to be no troops with any mobility whatsoever. Thus there will be no sally, should the opportunity presents itself.

This is part of why he is putting all of them forward.. They don't have the mobilty to move to threatedned points.


My third concern is leaving the Paladins to guard the tower -- taking our most effective combat units and removing them from the battle. I would prefer to keep them as a ready reserve, keep the bad guys from getting close to the tower in the first place.

I agree with this concern compleatly but he has to... because the aproaching army has 'airborn' flying zombies and the zonbie dragon. if Xycon flyies over the wall and takes the gate... then holding the wall is moot any way.

Personly I would probably aproach things differently but I can see a the logic involved.

[Ariko]

Okay folks, we've all seen #413 now .. what do you think of Shojo's defense plan?

Sorry, but someone has to say it..I don't think these are Shojo's plans :smalltongue:

[slayerx]

Y'know one thing that might help... sending someone to go gather together the paladins that are away so that they come in and smite evil just when things are looking the most grim... the rider's of rohan Azure City =p

ok... so maybe Hinjo doesn't have that kind of time...
At the very least he should make sure his archers watch out for any hobgoblins running with torches though =p

[Illiterate Scribe]

They should probably use the paladins to take out the mid-level characters, such as buffers, raisers, etc - divine spellcasters basically. The OotS can then use the snarl gem as a trap for Xykon, who, as we all know, is an evil overlord, and will waste time making speeches and so on before getting jumped, by some ECL 10+ PCs. Redcloak will then probably take his chance at usurping, but the resulting disruption of the undead will cause enough chaos for him to escape.

[Mawhrin Skel]

It seems odd that there won't be any arcane casters on the walls to throw fireballs at the invaders. You wouldn't want to use area attack spells within the city. Casters can also seal breaches in the walls with wall or barrier spells. Is the castle within range?

Mass buff spells (including courage inspiring bards) would also help the defending soldiers.

There are likely a significant number of adventurers in the city. Are they being drafted?

[Tussy the Druid]

It seems odd that there won't be any arcane casters on the walls to throw fireballs at the invaders. You wouldn't want to use area attack spells within the city. Casters can also seal breaches in the walls with wall or barrier spells. Is the castle within range?

Mass buff spells (including courage inspiring bards) would also help the defending soldiers.

There are likely a significant number of adventurers in the city. Are they being drafted?

That is a good point about the casters. But you're right, there's bound to be some adventurers, what're they going to do?

[Orzel]

Each paladin, drafted adventurer, and OOTS member should be able to take out al least 5 hobgoblins or zombies. Most should be able to take out 10-15 and Each OotS member and High level paladin should be able to get 20 down using only 1/4 of their resources. He'll probably have about 200 or so high level guys in his ranks so that's about 3000 dead hobbos. What's left of the wall and defensive fortifacation should take out maybe a 1/5 of the groud troops. That'll leave his regular troops at 2-4 kills a man to win.

Eeeeee.

Hinjo's plans is smart for a leader. He's basically chumpblocking. Slow down and injure the main forces then overprotect what matters. Still boned.

[nybbler]

The lower-level paladins could be a sally force if one became possible. But that seems unlikely.

Hinjo's plan would make sense if there were aid coming from somewhere. Lacking that, I think it's a loser. It's a conservative, conventional plan that (assuming no dramatic magic on either side) will wear down the invaders but enough to keep them from overwhelming the defenses. Xykon's army probably can't be routed by conventional force, and would be exceedingly difficult to slaughter to the man..err..hobgoblin given Xykon's ability to raise zombies. If Hinjo actually wanted to beat them, he'd have to try something bolder, risking his defense for a chance to put his high level paladins and spellcasters in a position to destoy Xykon's force. But at the end of the day, Hinjo's goal isn't to defend the city; it is to defend the gate. So he can't do that, or while he was dealing with the army, Xykon would bypass it and go for the gate. Which Xykon is going to try anyway.

[pendell]

Still thinking ...

Me thinks the center of gravity for the bad guys is Xykon. Nail him, and I suspect the rest of the army will run for it. He is the head of the body. Cut off the head, and you're left with a disorganized hobgoblin horde.

So let's look at the who-what-where-how of this.

Who/what will kill Xykon? The only one I can think of is Roy with his +5 sword. No one else has the capability to face off with him in combat.

Where will this happen? If Xykon stayed back this would be difficult -- but we know what Xykon is here for, so we can assume that he'll be going for the gate just as soon as he can, possibly using his army of hobgoblins as a diversion while he goes for the gate. A great convenience, really. Rather than having to hunt the villain down, he will come to us.

Which brings us to the how.

Set up the army defense, but turn the tower into a lich-trap. Deliberately set out what appears to be a weakness but is in fact heavily guarded. Then the Paladins can fight off whatever NPC guards Xykon brings along while Roy engages Xykon, with the rest of the OOTS assisting.

Once we've put Xykon back in his phylactery, I assume Redcloak will escape. The rest of the hobgoblin army can then be mopped up at leisure.

Problem: MiTD. How do we neutralize him? He's certain to come along, and if he's not distracted he will easily defeat Roy, given the ease with which he smacked :miko: down.

Since he seems to be a Melee Monster Sans Pere et Sans Reproche, I think Vaarsuvius and Durkon should be tasked to stop him. Since he can hit like an express locomotive, it follows that ranged combat is what is needed to stop him. And since he obviously has some kind of damage reduction, Haley's arrows won't do.

Another possibility would be another poorly planned illusion on :elan:'s part. That might confuse the MiTD. :elan: confuses everyone else.

Or maybe :elan: could use diplomacy on him. Even if he can't sway the MiTD over to the good guys, perhaps he can delay or distract him for a few rounds -- long enough for :roy: to do the snicker-snack routine with his +5.

Hmmm ... anyone wanna bet :miko: gets out of prison and into this fight somehow? That'll be an interesting wild card. I hope the :mitd: hits her into the next galaxy.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Weezer]

Still thinking ...

Me thinks the center of gravity for the bad guys is Xykon. Nail him, and I suspect the rest of the army will run for it. He is the head of the body. Cut off the head, and you're left with a disorganized hobgoblin horde.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Actually Redcloak is the Hobgoblin leader and he isnt too shabby at the leadership thing so he might be able to succesfully withdraw the hobgoblins intact.

[Zienth]

He does have reserves behind the walls. He's got the low-level paladins "behind the wall, to defend the citizens in case they breach it." (although I'm not sure why the citizens would breach the wall... :smallwink: ). He's also got the higher level Paladins in the castle, who could serve as a mobile reserve if absolutely necessary. I'm pretty sure they all would have their mounts handy. Although I'd be very hesitant to pull them out and leave the castle open for airborne assault.

I think making sorties outside of the city would be a bad idea. There is no way you can hold ground outside the wall against 3 to 1 odds, and anyone who falls out there would likely end up as an undead in tomorrow's assault. They really need to make sure all of the fighting takes place on or behind the walls so Xykon can't make use of the corpses, human or hobgoblin.

Also, is the battle really over the moment Xykon gets to the gate? He doesn't want to destroy it, he wants to control it so he can control the snarl. Will he be able to control the snarl instantly, or will it take him time to learn to control it? Remember, this is something that slays gods, I doubt Xykon will be able to use it the moment he's in the throne room. He probably needs to take control of the castle and hold it for a while.

He's only got a few flying troops, all undead. They are probably not enough to defeat a defending force of leveled Paladins and still be strong enough to hold the castle. Frankly, an undead force up against Paladins would probably have little or no chance, if not for the smiling fellow leading them. I think he needs to actually get a significant force past the walls and to the castle in order to really take control of the gate. But if the castle isn't well defended, his flying troops might be enough to take it and hold it for a while.

And all of that can be thwarted by anyone with a hammer that is willing to destroy the gate rather than let Xykon take control of it. That probably rules out the Sapphire Guard, since they've sworn to protect it, which would probably keep one of them from destroying it. And I don't see Hinjo making plans to destroy it either, because of that darned oath. Oaths sure can be inconvenient, I swear to <insert deity here> that I'll never take one. :smallwink:

I think Hinjo's plans are fairly sound, given the circumstances. Without the magic wildcard, the only way the attackers could possibly win would be an extended seige. An assault against the intact walls would be suicide (which wouldn't bother Xykon, but eventually he'd run out of warm corpses). And with Azure City being a port, you'd have a hard time starving them out. So it would come down to seige engines and/or sappers trying to breach the wall.

I see Xykon making an airborne assault, while Redcloak leads the assault on the walls. Xykon should feint towards the castle, but really hit a section of wall from the air. As has been pointed out, his flying zombies are fairly resistant to arrows, and that zombie dragon ought to be able to clear the green troops from a section of wall, allowing the hobbos to scale it. Xykon's force might even be able to take a gate from behind and get it open to let the ground troops in. Once the hobbos have a good foothold on the wall or through a gate, things get bleak for the defenders.

Hmmm, the only gate appears to be right in front of the castle, so trying to take it from behind would expose Xykon's rear to an assault by the high level Paladins from the castle. So I'd say he should try to take the wall on the left flank (relative to the hobgoblin horde), as far from the castle as possible. So Hinjo needs to station someone who can deal with a zombie dragon out there. Maybe someone who can cast a killer fireball?

Zienth

[Roderick_BR]

Well, he is keeping the lower level paladins inside the walls in case of breachs. The main troops are there to take the blunt of the enemy forces, and he is keeping archers and arcane casters in high places. Not bad for a last minute plan. Also, someone mentioned that they have their back to a shore, so the enemy can attack only from one side.
The problem here is that the zombies and goblins can overwhelm the infantry, opening too many breachs.
As for the "Anti-lich trap", I think high-level paladins and clerics will be enough ;) And don't forget that in narrow pathways, the attacking force will be forced to send a group each time.

[Ampersand]

It seems odd that there won't be any arcane casters on the walls to throw fireballs at the invaders. You wouldn't want to use area attack spells within the city. Casters can also seal breaches in the walls with wall or barrier spells. Is the castle within range?

Well, we know that at least one of the highest (if not the) level wizards in Azure City is currently dead...

What I'd worry about is Xykon's ability to Ghostform and if Miko was able to share that little detail before the Throne Room Incident.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hold the line, men! The lich Xykon must not be allowed into the throne room!
:xykon: Yeah?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Huh?
:xykon: You called?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif What the...GET HIM! He must not be allowed near Soon's Gate!
:xykon: *Casually starts zapping paladins* Oh, that. Free tip, not that you'll be able to use it when you're my zombie footrest, but the next time you make an impenatrable fortress, spring a little extra for the lead lined blocks.
:xykon: *Casually zaps more paladins* Speaking of, how long will it take us to do that, Redcloak?
:redcloak: About a week, sir.
:xykon: *Casually zaps last non-Hinjo paladin* You've got 12 hours. Send some of the hobgoblins around, they should have some in this stupid city.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Face me, abomination!
:xykon: What, you're still here?

[spite48]

I would think that wizards on the walls would be quickly decimated by archers, and other attackers. By keeping the arcane casters within the city, they can deal with breaches using area of effect spells and barriers.

[blackout]

One of Hinjo's commanders said that there might be soldiers outside the walls that can be recalled in time to defend the city. If Xykon were to intercept such a soldier, or group of soldiers, he might be able to hit them with a powerful suggestion-type spell and get them to open the gates once their inside, allowing his own soldiers to rush the city's defenses with relative impunity. <----Possible!

[krossbow]

Just send the ninjua assassins out! :smalltongue:





Either way, a good option would be to have ninja's blindfold thog, throw him over the edge of the buidling, remove the blindfold, and tell him that Xycon kidnapped Nale.

[blackout]

And let's not forget the ever-present possibility of a prison riot inside the castle once Xykon's inside, if he makes it in. Nale and the rest of the linear guild + Miko trying to make their escape amidst the chaos of a battle?

[Threeshades]

Thog might be a nice option in this battle. ^^

But i think the way Hinjo spread the troops over the defensive wall isnt all that bad. if that wall is really supposed to be the way it looks in the strip then Hinjo is forcing xykons army to get themselves surrounded by archers and waiting swordsmen. this way thay all can join the battle at the same speed. His biggest concern should be Xykon and his dragon zombie as well as the flying zombies, who will easily be able to pass the defenses, and that's where a strong guard around the tower will come in handy. The paladins could hold xykon away from the throne. If he leaves no one, or just some low level fighters around the throne, xykon will just fly there, walk in and open the gate

[Hopeless]

No offence but if Xycon has been scrying Miko even if he didn't hear about where the gate actually is he now has a way to teleport directly inside the castle.
Lets the army outside divert attention whilst he searches the interior, of course there's the possibility HE DID HEAR so teleport near the throne room handle what few guards are present and presto!
So does Durkan take out the gate and is killed as a result?
And does that mean the next gate is located in his homeland?

[Dell]

His defense strategy is okay - but one should think of how rich is going to keep it good

Here's what I think will happen:

Xykon will attack loosing lots of troops and for 3 strips or something like that they will battle.
After these 3 strips Xykon is standing in front of the main building, the saphire tower he cant get in.
This is where the monster in the shadows takes action - this is clearly a wild card, that will get Xykon close to winning.
The monster in the shadows will attack and defeat most of the party and get in the tower.
Here is where another wild card comes into play:
Miko she will attack the monster in the shadows (they had a showdown before) and defeat it with some crazy idea.
Than it is the final battle:
Xykon vs the Order of the Stick!
This is the most interesting part.

But than again:
I think I will be wrong :)

[gooddragon1]

Use candles of invocation to call a celestial titan, have that titan call another titan... The purpose that justifies it: Universal stability and balance. I think thats a pretty good excuse for any Cheese. Even my psion char getting inf pp and soloing the whole army (yah, I could do that), If not have V memorize alot of area effect spells and durkon do the same, then blast the hell out of all the cluttered enemies. Hell, get that druid to use fireblast since he would consider the undead to be an abomination of nature.

[Mawhrin Skel]

I would think that wizards on the walls would be quickly decimated by archers, and other attackers. By keeping the arcane casters within the city, they can deal with breaches using area of effect spells and barriers.
Protection from Arrows would keep arcane casters safe at range. Sorcerors/bards may not have it of course, but I don't think we've seen one.

You make a good point about area effect attack spells on breaches though. Hobgoblins rushing through a choke point would be more densely packed. However, fireballing breaches from the ground behind the walls still leaves them more vulnerable to a charge than I would like, so I'd still rather they were on a wall.

An alternative: Keep some wizards/sorcerors behind the walls. Have them use Haste, Expeditious Retreat or similar (or a horse) to get to where the enemy is attacking. Then have them cover a developing breach with (multiple) barriers and then retreat. The hobgoblins would probably try to rush a barrier anyway, even if no enemy caster could dispel it. There don't seem to be many of those.

A Delayed Blast Fireball on a breach, delayed for a few rounds to give the invaders time to swarm in, could be amusing. Not necessarily optimal, but very violent.

[Electric_Monkey]

I've had a stab at estimating the composition of Xykon's forces. The spread in strip 300 shows 200 or so hobgoblins, 4 ghasts, 4 flying zombies, 2 catapults and 11 regular zombies. The dialogue in 413 suggests that the hobgoblins alone come to 27000, with undead making up the remaining 3000 (admittedly, that's making some pretty big assumptions about how the Azurites are rounding their estimates). That's a 9:1 ratio, which is close to 300's spread (~10:1). If we assume the section in 300 is representative of the army, then Xykon would have about 750 Ghasts, 750 flying zombies, 750 flying zombies and 400 or so catapults. I personally think it's unlikely he'll have found as many as 750 angels to zombify, but the Ghasts could give Azure city some real trouble.

My guess is that they're going to do a Minas Tirith - slow the army down with multiple layers of defences, while the main characters do the individual heroics needed to tip the balance.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Historically assaulting a defended, fortified position has always been a nightmare and one of the worst things an army can be forced to do. Hell, artillery and bombing were mainly developed to deal with that situation.

In history you generally needed at least a 3-1 advantage over the defender to even have a fair chance of pulling off such an assault, so old xykon has just enough gobbos to make it a fair fight.

Now maybe captain jack's airship will come out of nowhere and make a dombing run on xykon's army, a'la the gyro captain in "the road warrior" or the millennium falcon in "star wars", thus allowing jack a heroic death saving the city.

[MReav]

If I were the Azure city clerics, I would start summoning high level celestials, particularly Ghaele Eladrins, and Astral Devas. The Ghaele's Death Gaze and the ability to spam Holy Words and Auras would be critical.

Plus they have some good saves from their Protective Auras.

I would put the clerics to work binding as many of those as possible.

[Lord Faranor]

If I were tobe asked advice by the new Lord of Azure City, I'd tell him to keep some mobile troops ready for a flanking move, to aim for the siege engines. The paladins with mounts, normal horseman, and summoned phantom steeds and mouts would be a GREAT strike force. Wait till the heat of battle stick to the wall, and the siege will be less protected. They'd be dead later if the army kept its morale and order, though.

Now, for some plot speculation... All the important OotS characters are in the SAME CITY! So many things can happen... I'd vote for (and by that, I mean I think what will happen is) Miko joining some "untrialed prisioners who just happened to be thrown in prison by the Order of the Stick".

And let's remember, this is not our "Black Gate". This is our "Helm's Deep". I bet there's still another book's worth of comics. Go, Rich, go!

[pendell]

Question.

How high-level does a cleric have to be to destroy a zombie through turning?

Does the size of the zombie matter? E.g., is a dragon zombie substantially harder to turn than a human zombie?

'Cause it occurs to me that may be the solution to Xykon's undead air cavalry right there. One 3rd-level cleric aims a 'turn undead' his way, one zombie dragon disintegrated in mid-air, one seriously discomfited lich. A fall from several hundred feet won't kill him, but it should put a kink in his mobility.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[slayerx]

If I were the Azure city clerics, I would start summoning high level celestials, particularly Ghaele Eladrins, and Astral Devas. The Ghaele's Death Gaze and the ability to spam Holy Words and Auras would be critical.

Plus they have some good saves from their Protective Auras.

I would put the clerics to work binding as many of those as possible.
If your refering to how they summoned that "judge", then it wouldn't be AS useful as you think...
remeber the lawful good outsider they summoned (though it was actually Roy's Dad) was bound to the confines of that summoning circle. Not to mention we have no idea how strong of a celestrial they can summon (considering most of them are low level, though they do have atleast one 13th level).

So the clerics could summon some celestrials, but they would be more like stationary weapons, only being able to attack from one spot, with severly limited mobility... Still it would be much better than nothing... though i would guess that since more than one cleric was involved in summoning the judge, it might take an a LOT of divine power for the clerics to do that, power hey may desperatly need for healing and such...

[13_CBS]

I wonder, though, if the HOBGOBLIN army could withstand an extended siege. Azure City seems like it could hold out for a bit, while I haven't seen Xykon get any supplies for ths hobbies for them to last any more than a few weeks.

An army of 25000+ living creatures DOES need quite a bit of food to fight.

Also, have we considered that most of the hobgoblins will probably have 2 lives? One alive, one undead? Zombies might be rather weak, but thousands of them might be enough to turn the tide against the exhausted Azurites.

Also, in D&D, how effective are catapults against thick stone walls like that of Azure City? In real life, at least, such siege weapons are pretty useless against a strong stone wall.

[Zienth]

How high-level does a cleric have to be to destroy a zombie through turning?

Does the size of the zombie matter? E.g., is a dragon zombie substantially harder to turn than a human zombie?


I've seen a comment that indicates it's related to the number of hit dice of the cleric and the zombie. If I recall, the cleric has to have twice as many hit dice to destroy the zombie. So taking out a dragon zombie would require a pretty high level cleric.

But I'm just going from what I read in another thread. I haven't actually played AD&D in about 15 years, and that was using a much older ruleset.

Zienth

[gooddragon1]

Single Actions Only (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge).



That ought to help out a bit for the azure city defenders

This might help judge the hobgoblins level dispersion
Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 50% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th-6th level), warband (10-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 50% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 6th-8th level, 2-4 dire wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm), and 1-4 ogres (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm) or 1-2 trolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm))
hobgoblin saves
Fort +4 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Ref +1 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;), Will -1 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)

Symbol of Persuasion

Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#enchantment) (Charm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#charm)) [Mind-Affecting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor)]

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level): Clr 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#sixthLevelClericSpells), Sor/Wiz 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#sixthLevelSorcererWizardS pells) Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow): Will negates This spell functions like symbol of death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm), except that all creatures within the radius of a symbol of persuasion instead become charmed by the caster (as the charm monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm) spell) for 1 hour per caster level.
Unlike symbol of death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm), symbol of persuasion has no hit point limit; once triggered, a symbol of persuasion simply remains active for 10 minutes per caster level.
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of persuasion are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) (only) can use the Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) skill to find a symbol of persuasion and Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm) to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 31 for symbol of persuasion.
Material Component

Mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 5,000 gp.

Let's have that diamond go to good use eh? Place it at a breach.

[kpenguin]

A cleric must have at least twice an undead's HD to destroy it through turning (unless its a greater turning from the Sun domain which I doubt the clerics have).

Since the zombies are hobgoblins, they should only have one HD (class levels don't count and hobs don't have natural HD). The zombiefication doubles that, so 2 HD per zombie. That means the cleric must be around fourth level to destroy the zombie. However, even a lvl 1 cleric can turn a zombie.
Now ghouls and ghasts. Ghouls have 2 HD plus 2 turn resistance. A cleric must be at least lvl 8 to destroy it through turning. A lvl 1 cleric has a chance of turning it if the cleric has good charisma and a lucky roll. Ghasts have 4 HD and +2 turn resistance. That means a cleric must be at least lvl 12to destroy throught turning. A first lvl cleric has no chance of turning a ghast.

Xykon? NO cleric in Azure City (and probably most of the OotSverse) can turn Xykon.

Question: Does Azure City have any neighboring allies that can have messangers sent out to request help?

[gooddragon1]

Set rune to proximity to passes over the rune

If the cleric who was going to raise the shojo can cast resurrection, he can cast symbol of persuasion AND he has the material components to do it. He just needs to prepare it.

[kpenguin]

Given how far Xykon is away, do the clerics have time to rest and prepare?

[gooddragon1]

Zombies are slow given that single move thingy. It could still be possible.

[13_CBS]

Wait, so are we assuming that Xykon's army has the proper logistics to assault/ lay siege upon a fortified city like Azure City?

[kpenguin]

If your refering to how they summoned that "judge", then it wouldn't be AS useful as you think...
remeber the lawful good outsider they summoned (though it was actually Roy's Dad) was bound to the confines of that summoning circle. Not to mention we have no idea how strong of a celestrial they can summon (considering most of them are low level, though they do have atleast one 13th level).

So the clerics could summon some celestrials, but they would be more like stationary weapons, only being able to attack from one spot, with severly limited mobility... Still it would be much better than nothing... though i would guess that since more than one cleric was involved in summoning the judge, it might take an a LOT of divine power for the clerics to do that, power hey may desperatly need for healing and such...

Two words: Planar Ally. These big fellas aren't confined to some dumb circles and up to a 12 HD dude could be summoned. That gives them Trumpet and Hound Archons, Guardinals, Astral Devas, Couatls to summon (assuming the cleric is lawful good) Planar Ally is lvl 6, so it is in the range of the high priest fella.

[Firestar27]

Well, we know that at least one of the highest (if not the) level wizards in Azure City is currently dead...
Um... Who?
Vaarsius is still alive. I can't remember a single other Azure City wizard other than the teleporting guy and he was ressurected. Not to mention he wasn't to competant either... All he could do was teleport. Probably had the minimum INT to cast it. Even if he was competant, he has no motivation. He went for a drink IMMEDIATELY after teleporting the OOTS.

[kpenguin]

He was able to himself and the entire OotS at once. That would mean he's at least lvl 18.

[The_Old_Fox]

I think a larger threat that may be overlooked is potential 5th column activity from within Azure City. After All Shojo lived under the threat of assassination and usurpation and it is no different with our main man Hinjo. Some foolish noble (perhaps one within the Azure regular military) could try to cut a deal with :xykon:, let him in in exchange for being the next ruler once :xykon: gets what he wants, or for a favorable position in :xykon: 's forces. Of course our favorite lich would most likely not honor such agreements but that doesn't mean someone wouldn't be foolish enough to try, especially in the face of the lich's overwhelming force. In classical and medieval warfare cities, especially with political turmoil and a discontent elite, were constantly changing hands do to 5th column activity.

I dunno, Azure City just seems ripe for some punk noble to come out of nowhere and open the gates to disaster.

[kpenguin]

Well Hinjo is LAWFUL good. He'll put up martial rule if he thinks its for the good of his people.

[The_Old_Fox]

Well Hinjo is LAWFUL good. He'll put up martial rule if he thinks its for the good of his people.

Almost every city under siege in the history of everything was put under martial law. That still doesn't mean there hasn't been 5th column activity. Additionally, it is likely that there are members of the noblity in the military who could be open to conspiracy. Hinjo, Roy, and the Paladins can't watch everybody. Conspiracy under martial law just requires a little bit of discretion, it is still possible in a city that has a brand new ruler and whose former ruler had to fake senility to aviod being offed by his own noblity.

[Roderick_BR]

Well, we know that at least one of the highest (if not the) level wizards in Azure City is currently dead...

What I'd worry about is Xykon's ability to Ghostform and if Miko was able to share that little detail before the Throne Room Incident.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hold the line, men! The lich Xykon must not be allowed into the throne room!
:xykon: Yeah?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Huh?
:xykon: You called?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif What the...GET HIM! He must not be allowed near Soon's Gate!
:xykon: *Casually starts zapping paladins* Oh, that. Free tip, not that you'll be able to use it when you're my zombie footrest, but the next time you make an impenatrable fortress, spring a little extra for the lead lined blocks.
:xykon: *Casually zaps more paladins* Speaking of, how long will it take us to do that, Redcloak?
:redcloak: About a week, sir.
:xykon: *Casually zaps last non-Hinjo paladin* You've got 12 hours. Send some of the hobgoblins around, they should have some in this stupid city.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Face me, abomination!
:xykon: What, you're still here?
I kinda doubt Xykon can casualy "zap" a large group of moderate to high paladins, with they good saves, and fairly good HPs. He's likely to put out a few, and get half a dozen smite evils decimating his HPs (that we know are high for being undead, but they won't last for long with his low AC).
Though that line "What, you're still here?" is funny as hell.

And something most people forgot/didn't pay attention.
Off course, everyone is forgetting that Xykon is a UNDEAD invading a city full of paladins. He's not so dense, people. He did tell RedCloak that he had a plan. The army is just a distraction.

[Dausuul]

Um... Who?
Vaarsius is still alive. I can't remember a single other Azure City wizard other than the teleporting guy and he was ressurected.

Was he? In all likelihood the Resurrect spell that was meant for him got cast on Shojo instead. And wasted, I might add.

Anyway, to the topic of Hinjo's plan... I agree that stationing all the high-level forces on the castle or in the tower would be a bad idea if this were a conventional battle, but it isn't. This is Xykon. He wants to get to the gate. He doesn't give a damn about Azure City, except the amusement value of conquering it. He'll take the most direct route in he can find, and I'm pretty sure it will involve rather more magic and rather less siege tactics.

That being the case, every high-level combatant Hinjo can find should be stationed around the gate, ready to defend it when Xykon shows up.

[Estelindis]

What I'd worry about is Xykon's ability to Ghostform and if Miko was able to share that little detail before the Throne Room Incident.
I don't think she did share it... When Miko mentioned Xykon in #406, Hinjo looked as surprised as the others. I hope that he visits Miko in her cell and asks for any information that could help them defeat Xykon. It makes sense. Of course, considering how crazy she's become, it's entirely possible that she could invent some reason not to tell him... But I'd think that, even at the nadir to which she has fallen, she still wouldn't want Azure City to fall under the sway of an evil lich, and would act accordingly.

As regards the rest of your post, by the way: awesome theoretical future conversation! "Face me, abomination!" :smallbiggrin:

[kpenguin]

What about that monastery that raised Miko? Is it located in Azure City. A monastery full of monks with maybe a high-level sensei that are most likely loyal to the throne (being lawful)

[kire]

Couple of things to consider:

We've been assuming Xykon will do a frontal assault on the wall. While that does seem most likely due to all the seige equipment he's bringing, isn't Azure city fairly undefended from sea? Zombies don't need to breathe. It would be quite possible to stage an amphibious landing (they don't even need to swim, tie some weights to them and make them walk, it's not like it'll slow them down anymore than they already are).

Plus Xykon might be able to teleport alot of them into position to do some harm (Ghasts on top of the walls right where the seige ladders go, allowing hobgoblins to swarm up). We haven't seen to many of Xykon's spellcasters, and although Xykon has a habbit of killing uppity underlings... Shelby the Dragonslayer from the books ...he did have several goblins with character levels (like the one Belkar killed when he was supposed to be protecting V and Durkon, or the one Belkar killed when everyone else was immobilized by unholy blight...come to think of it, Belkar seems to have a knack for killing "squishies"). So it's probable that Xykon's forces will be buffed up a bit also.

I'd definately like to see a scene similar to Belkar's poster on the tavern door; lots of characters with random class combinations spilling forth to slay hobgoblins and zombies. It'd be a great opportunity for some montages or splash pannels of random characters from PHB2, Eberron, Faerun, and all those other supplements.

Sacrificing minions, is there anything it can't solve:
Day 1: Swarms of hobgoblins take down some of the defenders, suffer massive casualties.
Day 2: Hobgoblins raised as undead, continue swarming.
Day 3: Defenders Slain in first 2 days rise as undead, continue the assault.
Day 4: Anything dead raised to continue fighting. Anything living forced to continue fighting. Xykon or Redcloak try out new raise dead-undead for another cycle of recycling troops.
Day 5 to X-Day (Xykon's Victory): See Day 4.

You know, it's ironic that while OOTS prepares to defend a city from an undead horde, Erfworld prepares to defend a city WITH an undead horde.

[blackout]

I don't know if anyone's discussed this possibility, but what if Xykon recruited some mercenaries along the way? Like, stealth specialists? Assassins and so on. He could figure out a way to get this team of mercs into the city and eliminate officers that have the neccessary tactical brains to actually win the fight for Azure City. We don't know if this is the case, and I doubt it is, but it IS a strong possibility..

[Professor Tanhauser]

People make like xykon is so awesome, may I remind you all that an unarmed fighter picked him up by his neck and ass and basically destroyed him, save for his phylactry?

[kpenguin]

Through suprise. For all his arcane power and intelligence, Xykon is a spellcaster and is probably vulnerable to grappling. Roy suprised him and Xykon would have probably killed Roy had it not been for the gate.

[Mawhrin Skel]

Probably a moot point as none of AC's arcane casters are likely to have it, but the Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow could allow a single caster atop the Tower to cast spells into any breach on the walls. I'm not entirely clear on what kind of spells could be imbued though.


What about that monastery that raised Miko? Is it located in Azure City. A monastery full of monks with maybe a high-level sensei that are most likely loyal to the throne (being lawful)
Good point. I'd forgotten that.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I think it will be a blitz attack on the side of the wall that had catapults damaged when elan came in. That side (on the left of 413) had the two catapults damaged and likely will not be repaired in time. Since it is also the wall furthest from the other towers, It would be likely that Xykon's catapults would concentrate on that part of the wall and try and breach there.

Good call on the underwater undead attack, that is a great idea done in both land of the dead and by White-Wolf during the seige of NYC in the old vampire game (Nights of Prophecy). I could easily see the first day of fighting be bombardment of the wall while undead take the back door...once undead are swarming inside, time to ramp up the attack.

However, Since Xykon went through all that trouble to get a part of Miko's cloak so that he could scry on her easy, it seems just as likely that he will teleport in while the battle rages.

Does anyone else think that Belkar will lead Miko or anyone else to the anti-magic block so that he can fight them without the mark of justice being active? I wonder if it works like that...

[Jade_Tarem]

Chances are that Hinjo will cancel Belkars MoJ before the fight, at least temporarily. He may end up freeing the Linear Guild and Miko too, if it gets that desperate.

Mark my words: the Linear Guild will get out one way or another during the fight. If they're not expressly released, one of Xykon's siege engines will pull a Pirates of the Caribbean and knock a hole in thier cell wall.

And to answer the earlier question, an Arcane Archer can imbue an arrow (up to 3 at a time, actually) with a spell that they know, of any kind, but only a spell that they know. This is the cause of a lot of complaints about AA - It's difficult to multiclass effectively with this PrC. The best use I've found for it is to pick up a couple extra levels of ranger and imbue with entangle. Some feel AA should have a running spell progression, the way Eldrich Knight does.

Not that Azure City has any Arcane Archers. I think the Giant is keeping PrC's to a minimum out of courtesy to his non-DnD playing readers, and while they've been mentioned from time to time the only PrC that's shown up for real is none other than Elan, and of course his mentor, Julio Scoundre'l

Besides, there's really nothing humerous about Arcane Archers, unless you imbue an arrow with a healing spell. That could be pretty funny, actually.

Wounded Guy: "I need healing!"
*Fwwwwwwwwwaaaaaap!*
Wounded Guy: "Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrthanksmanrrrrrrrrrrrrgh."

or

*Fwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaap!*
Wounded Guy: X(
Arcane Archer: "Whoops, seems damage is dealt before the spell goes off... my bad."

[Alfryd]

In history you generally needed at least a 3-1 advantage over the defender to even have a fair chance of pulling off such an assault, so old xykon has just enough gobbos to make it a fair fight.
Really? I was thinking 10:1 for parity, if the defenders are really stuck in.

"During the period prior to the first Crusade, for example, it is a fair generalization that a ratio of four attackers to each defender was a minimum if a general storming of the walls was to be carried out in a successful manner."
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/bachrach1.htm

Oh. Well there we are, then.

No offence but if Xycon has been scrying Miko even if he didn't hear about where the gate actually is he now has a way to teleport directly inside the castle.
That's the big problem. I reckon Shojo is playing it smart keeping his toughest fighters in reserve. The world, not just the city, is at stake there.

Anything dead raised to continue fighting. Anything living forced to continue fighting. Xykon or Redcloak try out new raise dead-undead for another cycle of recycling troops.
Assumign they use a desecrated site, and assuming Redcloak is level 15, Xykon 20, and they dedicate their spell slots to nothing but Animate Dead or improvements thereon,

(15 x 4 x 25) + (20 x 4 x 42) = 1500 + 3360 = 4860 HD worth of undead per day. So, they can theoretically afford to expend about 15% of their army with each wave.
In practice, it'll be a miracle if they manage to achieve anything like that efficiency.

Maybe someone who can cast a killer fireball?
Or, say, disintegrate?

In real life, at least, such siege weapons are pretty useless against a strong stone wall.
The Gate is the main weakness, and Xykon will probably have some impressive pyrotechnics of his own.

Wait, so are we assuming that Xykon's army has the proper logistics to assault/ lay siege upon a fortified city like Azure City?
He's been at least one step ahead thus far.

I dunno, Azure City just seems ripe for some punk noble to come out of nowhere and open the gates to disaster.
Yeah, but exactly how does this aspiring noble arrange to meet with Xykon for such purposes?

...while the main characters do the individual heroics needed to tip the balance.
Actually, that was the Rohirrim. Bear in mind, the city could get reinforcements by sea apart from supplies. And zombie assaults. But bear in mind the diviners can probably scry a major force of undead breaking off from the main host.


Remember, this is something that slays gods, I doubt Xykon will be able to use it the moment he's in the throne room.
That's one aspect of Xykon's plan that still makes little sense to me. Unless he's able to grab control of the Gate and use it to turn the tide of battle very quickly, he can't justify the risks involved in allowing a paladin messenger to warn the city of his impending advance on a tactical basis. The only other explanation is that he'd have to spend a lot of time scouring the city for the Gate, allowing time for A Band Of Unlikely Heroes to scupper his plans again, unless he scries it quickly.


I kinda doubt Xykon can casualy "zap" a large group of moderate to high paladins, with they good saves, and fairly good HPs.
With Ghostform they can't hit him the first place while he floats around near the ceiling, and he can throw around Power Word Kill at his leisure.

[warmachine]

I think Hinjo's plan is workable as he's trying to turn it into a long siege and the city still has a supply line: the sea. Xykon has no navy and doesn't appear to have enough airpower to blockade. Also, he has lots of clerics for healing. Xykon probably has some as well but the good clerics have the flexibility of picking non-healing spells to cover many eventualities and converting any that aren't needed on-the-fly.

There are still some wildcards, especially Xykon, but Hinjo does have some high level adventurers on hand.

[Weaponbreaker]

I am just concerned that Rich loves to make fun of D&D Miniatures....The battle scene seems very similar to the RHoD battle scene...

[pendell]

In history you generally needed at least a 3-1 advantage


Somebody remind me ... but in my old wargaming days that 3-1 advantage was meant for a standup fight on level ground. I.e., when two forces just run into each other, the attacker needs a 3-1 advantage to be assured of victory. Throw in things like hostile terrain or defensive fortifications and the required numerical advantage goes up dramatically.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[MReav]

Through suprise. For all his arcane power and intelligence, Xykon is a spellcaster and is probably vulnerable to grappling. Roy suprised him and Xykon would have probably killed Roy had it not been for the gate.

Charisma. Xykon is a Sorcerer.

[Orzel]

Hinjo's plan is pretty solid. Hinjo has somewehere between 100-250 mid to high level guys to Xykon's 200-400 non-zombie undead troops. Considering that Hobgoblin zombies are the same as commoner zombie +1 AC and Hobgoblin warrior are chumps to 1st level human warriors. If #300 is accurate X's is running around 10% zombies and 1% ghasts.

8,000+ ground troops with wall and tower support can take 30,000 hobbo chump with slighty above average difficulty.

Hinjo, Roy and Xykon all know the real fight is in the throne room.

Xykon, Redcloak, an undead dragon, and 50 undead stuff vs 100 paladins and the OotS.
And everyone who played a sorcerer for a long time knows how sucky sorcerers do vs a ragtag groups will all different sav progressions and class features.

[Wallyz]

Actually Redcloak is the Hobgoblin leader and he isnt too shabby at the leadership thing so he might be able to succesfully withdraw the hobgoblins intact.

However, as Xykon is both the Tactical Schwerepunkt (Withdrawl is a win for Azure City) and Strategic Schwerepunkt (without him, there is no controlling the gate) taking out Xykon should be the first, last, and only tactical goal for Hinjo.

[kpenguin]

Charisma. Xykon is a Sorcerer.

Probably pretty intelligent as well. Stupid sorcerers don't last as long and lichs get +2 to int upon lichdom.

[MReav]

Probably pretty intelligent as well. Stupid sorcerers don't last as long and lichs get +2 to int upon lichdom.

Not saying they aren't, but I contest he could match V or any of the court wizards in a battle of intellects.

I would say he's decently intelligent, 13-16 range, but by no means a genius.

[Swordguy]

Historically assaulting a defended, fortified position has always been a nightmare and one of the worst things an army can be forced to do. Hell, artillery and bombing were mainly developed to deal with that situation.

In history you generally needed at least a 3-1 advantage over the defender to even have a fair chance of pulling off such an assault, so old xykon has just enough gobbos to make it a fair fight.

Now maybe captain jack's airship will come out of nowhere and make a dombing run on xykon's army, a'la the gyro captain in "the road warrior" or the millennium falcon in "star wars", thus allowing jack a heroic death saving the city.

Historically, fortification defenders who have had to deal with flying, teleporting, and magically respawning enemies have...wait. Never mind.

Simply put, in a magic-heavy enviornment, traditional castles (with defensive enchantments in place) simply aren't worth the expense to build. Takeing Stronghold Builder's Guide (which, to the best of my knowledge, is the most recent resource for this sort of thing), a castle the size of Azure City (baseline: towers should be less than a boswhot apart, so I set the towers on the model at 300' apart, thus giving a scale) is going to take 100's of millions of gp to build over a century or more.

You simply can't reliably defend a fixed structure with D&D magic. Oh, there's a counterspell effect for everything an attacker might do. But what are the odds that you'll have all of them available to you on a scale that can defend the entirety of the castle?

This is why I tend to run low magic games. :smallwink:

[Adeptus]

Somebody remind me ... but in my old wargaming days that 3-1 advantage was meant for a standup fight on level ground. I.e., when two forces just run into each other, the attacker needs a 3-1 advantage to be assured of victory. Throw in things like hostile terrain or defensive fortifications and the required numerical advantage goes up dramatically.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Not quite brian. The 3 to 1 thing reflects assaulting an enemy that is dug in. In a level 1 vs. 1 army fight there is no force multiplier. A fair fight is 1 vs 1.

[pendell]

Not quite brian. The 3 to 1 thing reflects assaulting an enemy that is dug in. In a level 1 vs. 1 army fight there is no force multiplier. A fair fight is 1 vs 1.


Are you sure?

See, I always thought the 3:1 ratio is not "what it takes to get a fair fight". What 3:1 means is "guaranteed success for the attacker".

When facing off 1:1, the odds are 50%. Either side could win. And since the attacker has to move into attack range, the defense gets some attacks of opportunity. So there's a small advantage to the defender.

When facing off 2:1, the odds are still roughly even because, again, the attacker has to overcome terrain and move into range.

It's only when you set up a 3:1 battle as the attacker that you can be reasonably certain you're going to win this -- fight at lower odds and it's a toss-up.

Which is why I always understood if one is attacking in a wargame one tries to ensure that the odds of any given attack are 3:1 in favor. Setting up 1:1 battles -- "fair" fights -- is a way to lose a lot of units through attrition.

Fortifications etc. act as force multipliers to increase the defender's odds. So if the defender has a nominal defense of 1 and is in a fort giving a x3 bonus, the defense's strength is 3. The attacker therefore needs an attack strength of 9 in order to get the requisite 9:3 = 3:1 odds. If each attacking unit also has an attack of 1, the attacker must outnumber the defender 9:1 to get 3:1 odds, and therefore a near-certain victory.

But if I'm wrong, I'll gladly listen to someone who knows better :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Josh Inno]

BIG thought here... if they have teleporting wizards, why not send them after the troups 'to far away to recall in time'?

As for turning, in 3.0 it depends on HD. A dragon zombie would likely have far more HD than the zombie of a human commoner. So I'd say that yes, it would be harder to turn that way.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Historically, fortification defenders who have had to deal with flying, teleporting, and magically respawning enemies have...wait. Never mind.

Simply put, in a magic-heavy enviornment, traditional castles (with defensive enchantments in place) simply aren't worth the expense to build. Takeing Stronghold Builder's Guide (which, to the best of my knowledge, is the most recent resource for this sort of thing), a castle the size of Azure City (baseline: towers should be less than a boswhot apart, so I set the towers on the model at 300' apart, thus giving a scale) is going to take 100's of millions of gp to build over a century or more.

You simply can't reliably defend a fixed structure with D&D magic. Oh, there's a counterspell effect for everything an attacker might do. But what are the odds that you'll have all of them available to you on a scale that can defend the entirety of the castle?

This is why I tend to run low magic games. :smallwink:

If fortifications are so useless in a D&D world, why does everyone and his dog have castles?

[Professor Tanhauser]

A couple other issues come to mind here, at least to the mind of a non d&D player:

Logistics: Xykon doesn't care: When the hobs die, e'll just turn them into zombies.

How many zombies can xykon animate before he's out of magic power? That's a major factor as if he can animate every deal hob it doubles his armies frakking size.

How bad do the hobs have to get exploited and screwed over befor edeserting en masse, leaving xykon and redcloak high and dry?

[Steward]

If fortifications are so useless in a D&D world, why does everyone and his dog have castles?

Because D&D borrows a lot from Generic Medievel Worlds, and in Generic Medievel Worlds, there are castles. It doesn't make sense castles only make sense your opponent's can't fly or teleport or shoot lightning from the sky or fight nonstop for all eternity but there you go. Hinjo really needs to roll high on his Deus ex Machina roll if he wants to rout Xykon.


How bad do the hobs have to get exploited and screwed over befor edeserting en masse,

Eh, they've tolerated worse. Besides, hobgoblins are very well disciplined and very stupid. Although it would be funny if the hobgoblins just said, "Ah, screw 'dis" and trampled Xykon to lich-roadkill on their way out.

[FujinAkari]

If fortifications are so useless in a D&D world, why does everyone and his dog have castles?

Because high level magic users are rare. I mean, Hinjo has what... three?

[fangthane]

BIG thought here... if they have teleporting wizards, why not send them after the troups 'to far away to recall in time'?

Teleport has limits in terms of how many people can be brought along, and there's only one wizard capable of the spell in the city (assuming he's been resurrected now). If there were a smallish group of level 15+ paladins (or any class, for that matter) somewhere they could be reclaimed that might make a difference, but a handful of basic troops isn't worth the spell slot.

I'm still somewhat peeved that I don't get to be the first to mention that Shojo's defense plan likely involves relaxing and resisting any efforts to raise him. :)

Pity there don't seem to be many 8th-level-casting clerics around. Firestorm is excellent for mopping up opposing forces. That said, if they have potions of Fly, V could potentially do the same. I wonder if there're any Candles of Invocation or Amulets of Undead Turning available; those, in the hands of the 4+ level clerics, could prove critical.

[Winterking]

I'm surprised no one has thought of this yet:
1. Xykon has material (hair, cloak, giant scrying ball) to find out Miko's precise location.
2. As far as he knows, Miko is still one of Azure City's best paladins--he let her go precisely because she would run straight to the city.
3. Xykon expects Miko to be guarding the Gate, and, as someone mentioned earlier, he likely has a way to teleport to Miko's location.

Can you see the problem yet?
4. Miko is no longer a paladin, and will NOT be guarding the gate when Xykon scries out her location. Rather, she'll be in a jail cell (hopefully anti-magic'ed, for most amusement)

5. Thus, when Xykon and the MiD and possibly Redcloak 'port in to Miko's location, they don't end up at the Gate (as their original plan), but rather (oh ironies!) in Miko's cell.

Of course, Hinjo and co. don't know this. As far as their plans go, the thing I want to know is why aren't the civilians being drafted to help fight? Most won't be too effective, true, but they can still dig up and throw paving stones (even a zombie's day could be ruined by a fairly large, flat rock), carry supplies, reload crossbows, etc. And that's not considering the many civvies who probably have some experience with violence:
-Adventurers, obviously. If one of Cliffport's taverns has such a large force of wannabe-kobold-killers, Azure City ought to have a few dozen people interested in extra XP.
-Sailors: Azure City is a port (see #260). Sailors brawl. And have to be able to fight off pirates.
-Halflings: After all, Throw The Rock And Then Throw The Stick Shortly Thereafter can't be too much different that Throw The Rock At A Hobgoblin, Then Throw The Stick Shortly Thereafter At Another Hobgoblin
-Construction workers: may not be Warriors, but they can swing an axe/hammer, and probably have above average strength
-Nobles and their retinues: no noble worth his/her salt lacks a retinue of guards, especially nobles in a city that, like Azure City, is apparently Assassin-prone. Speaking of which...
-Assassins: maybe the won't be able to get critical hits on the zombies, but if a bunch of them sneak out in the middle of the night, they can wreak havoc on the hobgoblins, and that will likely delay Xykon's advance, buying Hinjo and co. more time.

[Adeptus]

Because D&D borrows a lot from Generic Medievel Worlds, and in Generic Medievel Worlds, there are castles. It doesn't make sense castles only make sense your opponent's can't fly or teleport or shoot lightning from the sky or fight nonstop for all eternity but there you go. Hinjo really needs to roll high on his Deus ex Machina roll if he wants to rout Xykon.


You are thinking of an adventurer's point of view. Parhaps the PC doesn't want a fortress, since his/her enemies will have inventive magical means of getting to him anyway. Similarily the PC will figure out a way to get inside his/her enemies fortresses.

But that only works individual heroes or small groups. Actual armies have to defeat the fortifications in a more labourous manner, just like they did in the real world.

I don't play D&D, but I've played (and fought wars) in epic high-fantasy games, and fortressess have always been a major consideration.

Admittedly a dragon turned a section of our city's earth works to ice and then shattered it. After driving off the dragon the breach was fixed with timber. Before the assoult, a vampire lord broke the timber section with a massive spell forcing us to improvice again...

Even still, the earth works around the city was a really important factor in the ensuing battle, and the enemy obviously spent a lot of effort breaching it.

In that high fantasy setting (Shadow World) the more serious castles are also warded against hostile teleports and scrying. I don't know if that can be done in D&D.

[Adeptus]

5. Thus, when Xykon and the MiD and possibly Redcloak 'port in to Miko's location, they don't end up at the Gate (as their original plan), but rather (oh ironies!) in Miko's cell.

I doubt one can teleport in an anti-magic cell. Doesn't make much sense.

[Jade_Tarem]

I'm surprised no one has thought of this yet:
1. Xykon has material (hair, cloak, giant scrying ball) to find out Miko's precise location.
2. As far as he knows, Miko is still one of Azure City's best paladins--he let her go precisely because she would run straight to the city.
3. Xykon expects Miko to be guarding the Gate, and, as someone mentioned earlier, he likely has a way to teleport to Miko's location.

Can you see the problem yet?
4. Miko is no longer a paladin, and will NOT be guarding the gate when Xykon scries out her location. Rather, she'll be in a jail cell (hopefully anti-magic'ed, for most amusement)

5. Thus, when Xykon and the MiD and possibly Redcloak 'port in to Miko's location, they don't end up at the Gate (as their original plan), but rather (oh ironies!) in Miko's cell.

I'm not entirely sure you can scry or teleport into an antimagic zone. Most likely the spell will fizzle and Xykon will go to plan B - whatever that is.

I'm also curious about the cleric that can cast ressurection. He's lvl 13, at least, so he might have a shot at turning Xykon. As far as we know, Xycon can cast 7th level spells, if that's what we assume Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage to be, and we'd better hope it stays that way because if Xykon can cast 8th or 9th level spells, it's over already. So if we assume that Xykon has 13 or 14 HD instead, along with his +4 turn resistance, then the cleric on a good enough roll could turn him - especially with improved turning.

Anyone else worried about Earthquake? It's a 7th level spell specifically used to level structures like big blue walls. As a sorcerer, Xykon can practically spam it if he has it as a spell. This also goes for Disintegrate, which can blow 10ft chunks out of the wall with precious little the AC defenders can do to stop it.

I wonder if the Giant will do a parody on the Battle of Helm's Deep? Perhaps a hobgoblin with a torch races through the crowd, Haley valiantly firing at him to no avail, and dives onto a stack of bombs in a drain pipe to one side of the wall. A huge explosion goes off and... nothing happens. A defender on the wall says "Oh, sorry, we reinforced the snot out of that 6 months ago when we saw the movie."

Just some random thoughts.

[FujinAkari]

I'm surprised no one has thought of this yet:
1. Xykon has material (hair, cloak, giant scrying ball) to find out Miko's precise location.
2. As far as he knows, Miko is still one of Azure City's best paladins--he let her go precisely because she would run straight to the city.
3. Xykon expects Miko to be guarding the Gate, and, as someone mentioned earlier, he likely has a way to teleport to Miko's location.

Can you see the problem yet?

True... but...

If he can teleport to Miko due to having close contact with her, can't he teleport to his crown which Roy is wearing?

[Winterking]

I doubt one can teleport in an anti-magic cell. Doesn't make much sense.


Whoops, my stupid. I should've thought about that. Well, hopefully Miko won't be put in an anti-magic cell. 'Twould still be amusing for Xykon to 'port into jail, expecting to find the Gate.



With castles/fortifications in D&D, I agree with Adeptus--a small group of adventurers/monsters might not have trouble getting past a castle's walls, but it will be far more trouble for an army to do so. Not to mention the equally-high-level adventurers/monsters likely to be employed by the other side.
Plus, in a D&D world, I expect there are some simple spells that could be cast to give stone walls greater endurance versus magical attack. They don't even have to be from a rulebook--I expect there's quite a few simple, utilitarian spells (like Prestidigitation, but less versatile), which would be useful in a game world, but not to any adventurers. (Magics to enhance crops, to clean floors, to separate dross from ore, to clean out a clogged sewer, etc.) Maybe there's a similar spell to magically reinforce mortar and stone, so that a wall can resist destructive effects.

[Tordek]

Teleporting INTO an antimagic field makes you stop abruptly at the edge of the field, and there's a % roll for a missed landing.

[Alfryd]

...if Xykon can cast 8th or 9th level spells, it's over already.
Meteor Swarm. He's *probably* epic.

As far as he knows, Miko is still one of Azure City's best paladins--he let her go precisely because she would run straight to the city.
He'd be able to scry Miko's current location anyways, so he'd know she was in prison. Plus, you're assuming he hasn't been scrying her continually since before entering the throne room.

How many zombies can xykon animate before he's out of magic power?
Him and Redcloak can do about 5000 HD worth of undead per day, in theory. See, now this would be the *perfect* time for Miko to get in her annual smiting allowance if she hadn't gone and truncated Shojo. Gah.

[Fawsto]

The greatest problem for Hinjo...

When you kill a hobgoblin you make a corpse, and corpses means undead minions. It is like if Xycon has a reserve force prepared if something goes wrong... If Xycon has like 7000 Hobgoblins and 3000 undeads, sooner or later, after destroying 25% of his army, he will make undead minions from the dead hobglobins and still get 5250 hobgoblins and 4050 undeads; while Azure City's force wont increase with the death of it's defenders. Sounds bad, doesn't it?

[gooddragon1]

Which is precisely why i suggested the rune of persuasion with proximity, take the hobgoblins as allies and march em off a cliff then burn the bodies. The diamond may not have been wasted because the spell fizzled and I don't think GM's are that diabolical. Therefore, if the wall is breached a rune of persuasion should be placed over the breached area, and then some way to lure the hob gobbos over it en masse needs to be enacted. That, or give those 1st lvl fighters a chance to lvl up with a coup de grace using roy's greatsword. Fortitude save +4 for 1st lvl hobgob, 2d6+5 damage minimum 7 with average strength, command gob to go to sleep, 7*2=14 damage crit minimum hobgoblins have max of 10 hp on 1st lvl mebbe 12 if they have really good con. 150 xp per dead hobgoblin, 7 of those gives a lvl to a 1st lvl fighter. And I have to go due to time.

[Vonriel]

First, I wanna clear up a point that has been mentioned. If castles are so useless in D&D, why have them? First off, while a wizard can potentially level a castle, to become a wizard one must spend a massive amount of time studying. Your average band of brigands, which any fantasy world such as D&D will have, won't have potent casters. The thieves OotS met in the forest of whateveritscalled were an exception, as that was supposed to be an encounter for the PCs to overcome :smallwink: Also, a castle is a symbol. It shows you have power, and you can provide security. Even in reality, people feel safe even when they aren't when huddled up inside a house, say during a war or during a natural disaster. The same could be translated for castles. So yeah, castles definitely have a place in the D&D universe.

Second. Remember that Azure City was essentially built by a PC. One who was very high level, went on very dangerous (read: profitable) campaigns - 5 to be exact - and thus had a massive amount of gold to spend. And he spent nearly all of it to protect the rift in the Snarl's prison, which is the gem inside the tower, and thus the castle. I wouldn't have put it past him to hire many high level wizards to imbue the masonry with permanent magical effects to enforce it, make it uber-resistant to spells, etc. The rest of the city was most likely mundane in nature ("If you build it, they will come.") seen as very safe for living and, most notably, residences of very rich and very paranoid merchants, due to the nature of the Sapphire Guard. And with commerce in place, cash flow is generated, and the city would have formed itself around the tower. My main concern isn't with the castle, as it'd take several casters of high-level PC calibur (Or a well placed plot device :smallbiggrin: ) to do anything to break it, and I imagine if Xykon and Redcloak were to try, it'd expend the greater portion of their magical reserve to do so. My main concern is what surprises Xykon has in store for the walls of the city. It may not be important in the grand scheme of things, but it'd definitely look bad if the Sapphire Guard let Xykon kill a ton of civvies. .. Oh, duh, evacuation. But still.

Third. The plan. Hinjo's plan is good, but it could use a few tweaks. Assuming the model on the table is a representation of what the battlefield will look like, I'd build 2-3 tall platforms in the city on a line parallel with the walls, and station arcane casters here. Keeping the casters off the walls is critical, because bowfire - and the need to protect from it - would harass them. Dedicate at least one caster on each platform to defending against magical sabotage, and you have deadly positions from which your casters can blow up enemy troops/siege engines, or destroying any troops in would-be breaches in the walls. I'd say an even division into 3 groups would work well, with one group on the castle and one group on each platform. I'd also spread out mid-level (5-7[maybe 9?]) paladins among my troops, both for the boost to saving from fear and the turn ability. Anything higher than that would form a mobile reinforcement unit, based out of the castle. As has been mentioned, the flying zombies are a problem, though I'm wondering just how effective Durkon would be at turning them? And their maneuverability while flying is reduced to clumsy, so there's not much chance of them pulling anything fancy, and I imagine fireballs blow up flying zombies as well as walking zombies, so that's how I'd handle things. Though, there's not much I wouldn't try and solve without a well placed fireball. The only thing I don't know is how I'd utilize the PCs. Maybe just let them commit hobgoblin genocide or something. Great Cleave ftw.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on Azure City's defense.

--

What I expect to happen in the fight? Who knows, I'm only good at theorizing the mechanics of it, not predicting the mind of a genius.

[Professor Tanhauser]

I just thought of something: She who is named to the point of nausea said that some dragons were good and noble. This implies she's met/dealt with good dragons. Could AC have good dragon allies to help them?

I imagine a dragon would be royally pizzed to see xykon perching his bony ass on a zombie dragon, kind of an insult to the species, you know. I could see some 'good' dagons halping AC grind him bones to dust.

Ok, maybe reading too much into she who is named too often's asserting that dragons could be good, but....

[13_CBS]

Well...looks like the new comic will complicate things, aka reduce the # of Azure City's defenders by a good chunk.

[kpenguin]

I just thought of something: She who is named to the point of nausea said that some dragons were good and noble. This implies she's met/dealt with good dragons. Could AC have good dragon allies to help them?

I imagine a dragon would be royally pizzed to see xykon perching his bony ass on a zombie dragon, kind of an insult to the species, you know. I could see some 'good' dagons halping AC grind him bones to dust.

Ok, maybe reading too much into she who is named too often's asserting that dragons could be good, but....

Don't forget that Miss Paladin-of-the-Year has been questing far and wide. Because Hinjo has not yet sent out any messangers to request aid, I would assume that AC has no powerful allies that could come to help in time.

[rymack]

How bout the defences on the other snarl spots? Teleporting in some of the nasty surprises mentioned in the flashback strips would be fun, if difficult. Assuming the defenders/monsters of the other gates still care about the snarl and all.

[kpenguin]

The wizards probably haven't seen the other gates before so no chance of that.

With the nobles refusing their support, I think the only thing that could possibly save Azure City now is a miracle.

[Jawajoey]

What about the Hobgoblin Supreme Leader? He's still around, and probably not too pleased with the prospect of sending many thousands of his subjects to their deaths in a siege against a foreign city, on the order of some random Lich who showed up and stole his position.

This brings up several interesting things, in fact. Technically, Redcloak is supreme leader, not Xykon, so that lends some interesting possibilities.

But even further, the Hobgoblins were probably aware that their supreme leader wasn't actually killed. The real leader was just lying low, obvious, but how much of that the hobbo horde knew is unknown. Perhaps they all know, and are acting of the leader's orders to play along with Xykon for the time being. Regardless, should the real leader make an appearance, I imagine the hobgoblin army would be loyal to him (although the zombies would not), although I don't doubt that Redcloak or Xykon could easily take him.

For reference, here's the comic where Redcloak becomes supreme leader:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html
And I also dug up this comic to show that he was still around:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html
But that doesn't appear to be the same goblin, so nevermind.

[rymack]

i really can't see redcoat changing sides till a more dramatic part of the story, somewhere near the last gate. But running through the old comics, is there any group the 'players' might know whom could come to the city's aid?

[Jawajoey]

Personally, I don't expect or want Redcloak to ever betray Xykon. He's a cohort, not an ambitious student. This isn't the Sith we're talking about here.

But, the possibility is there and important nonetheless.

[Demented]

This brings up several interesting things, in fact. Technically, Redcloak is supreme leader, not Xykon, so that lends some interesting possibilities.

I get it! It's interesting! Sheesh, no need to rub it in! <_<

(Sorry, just had to poke fun.)

[Guild Member #6]

1) Ya gotta have Castles; Castles are cool... that's all there is to it.

2) I thought :xykon: and :redcloak: could teleport into :miko:'s cell if it is protected, just not out of a protected cell?

3) Let the various classes of attackers and defenders fight it out, they are background noise. I think Jawajoey has the right of it: :redcloak: doesn't really have the leadership position of the Hobgoblins; they're just in it for the fight. Turn their leader, turn the army. Could come in handy...

4) What odds that :belkar: gets stuck defending :vaarsuvius::durkon: again? I go for somewhere around 100%...

[Jaysyn]

Seeing as the nobles are abandoning Azure City, I'm thinking what would I do in Hinjo's shoes. Pretty simple really, if I didn't successfully defend the city I'd not have anything to worry about 'cause I'd be dead. If I *did* successfully defend the city, I'd have the nobels ships firebombed & sunk on the way back into the harbor.

Did I mention I'm not Lawful Good?

[Alfryd]

I just thought of something: She who is named to the point of nausea said that some dragons were good and noble. This implies she's met/dealt with good dragons.
That, or she bothered to research the subject.

Don't forget that Miss Paladin-of-the-Year has been questing far and wide.
Y'know, I kind of preferred when Miko was referred to as a psychotic bitch. At least it was familiar.

What about the Hobgoblin Supreme Leader? He's still around...
It didn't even occur to him to challenge Redcloak, so I presume he's not about to stage a coup in the near future.

[Fawsto]

For the sake of the city, I'd put those Nobles in Jail for treason and take their troops to the battle anyways. If they are combatants and live in AC their responsability is to defend the city; also If a good chunk of 'em are Samurais and Honored Fighters they will want to defend the city...

Maybe comiting sepuku after that 'cause their masters have no value as persons...

I Think Hinjo would like to destroy as many of the enemy troops with his Siege Machines before the fight even starts. I'd take 50 Paladins and use them as the cavalary attacking in the flanks, with hit & run tatics. This would even the fight pretty fast (if they focus in the undeads) since the enemy has no cavalary, and those flying zombies can be taken down by the archers (using fire arrows, of course).

[Alfryd]

For the sake of the city, I'd put those Nobles in Jail for treason and take their troops to the battle anyways.
Problem is, said troops may stiffly resist any attempt by civic authorities to incarcerate their employers, depending on exactly which way their loyalties lie. Silly Roy put his foot in his mouth again.

[Lasada1984]

Sorry, as a Medieval wargeek, have to post here.

In really life medieval or early renaissance warfare (before the use of heavy artillery dramatically changed sieges ) it very much depended on the fortifications and quality of your troops, but 3 to 1 was the minimum any sane commander would use to assault a decent fortification, and that would probably not succeed. 10-1 is a bit of exaggeration though, for all but the strongest, most well equipped fortresses, and even there that would probably more then enough. Quite a few sieges (most of them I think) came down to trying to starve the defenders out and/or bribe someone to open the gates or allow a breach.

In D and D, however, numbers really don't mean much with high level casters running around. Couple Earthquake spells, which Redclock probably could cast, if nothing else from a scroll, would decimate any wall position, Mass hold person would also not be good.

[Jayabalard]

It seems likely to me that it doesn't really matter how they defend it; eventually it will have to be destroyed to keep Xykon from getting it, and the MITD will still not be shown until the next arc.

[Ampersand]

It seems likely to me that it doesn't really matter how they defend it; eventually it will have to be destroyed to keep Xykon from getting it, and the MITD will still not be shown until the next arc.
Well, we don't know that Xykon won't get it. For all we know Xykon will pull a Kefka and wind up getting Real Ultimate Power despite the best efforts of the PCs...who then need to travel to Girard's Gate and Kraagor's Gate in an effort to take down the new ruler of the world.

[onasuma]

I just realised something. Most of you will have noticed it but: When Julio dropped elan off, he states he damaged the defences! Thats going to be a problem.

[The_Old_Fox]

Seeing as the nobles are abandoning Azure City, I'm thinking what would I do in Hinjo's shoes. Pretty simple really, if I didn't successfully defend the city I'd not have anything to worry about 'cause I'd be dead. If I *did* successfully defend the city, I'd have the nobels ships firebombed & sunk on the way back into the harbor.

Did I mention I'm not Lawful Good?


I would agree with that if paladins weren't so important to Azure City, however, no need to cause a big mess with his Paladin's right before a war.
Additionally, with all the problems that the nobles cause and could cause it seems to be in Hinjo's favor that the troublesome element of his society is not inside to betray him or cause other problems.

[Renegade Paladin]

Each paladin, drafted adventurer, and OOTS member should be able to take out al least 5 hobgoblins or zombies. Most should be able to take out 10-15 and Each OotS member and High level paladin should be able to get 20 down using only 1/4 of their resources. He'll probably have about 200 or so high level guys in his ranks so that's about 3000 dead hobbos. What's left of the wall and defensive fortifacation should take out maybe a 1/5 of the groud troops. That'll leave his regular troops at 2-4 kills a man to win.
Which is not unrealistic, given that they're on a high battlement with improved cover and bows.

[Alfryd]

If I *did* successfully defend the city, I'd have the nobels ships firebombed & sunk on the way back into the harbor.
Sadly, Hinjo's pesky paladin code will forbid him doing anything of the sort. What he needs is a loyal, intelligent, CG grand vizier who can bear the dreadful news that all the nobles' vessels were mysteriously firebombed on the night they were set to disembark in the harbour. Then have Hinjo quietly assassinated and assume power in order to institute a benevolent dictatorship.
It's all for the greater good!
ME! ME! I AM THE GREATER GOOD!

[Orzel]

If you look at it with the RTS veiwpoint, Xykon is mostly running guy equevilent to the first mooks available from the barracks in a RTS. Hobbo warriors have 6 HP and zombies have 16 HP. Ghouls are 13-14 HP chumps and that's 98% of is army. Xykon is basically "barrack swarming".

Hinjo is tech-turtling. He has a lot more high tech guys but a lot fewer numbers. He also has whatever is left off his towers and walls. His allies dropped. He was attacked by neutrals and he "bought" extra heroes and elite units.

Normally Hinjo's plan should work but....

[Estrosiath]

Meh. Honestly, I think Hinjo's plan is doomed to failure. If he thinks he can just turtle in, he's sorely mistaken. Assuming Xykon actually puts some thought into the siege (he might be too busy playing with Redcloak to, though... You never know), he will have loaded up on the disintegrates. And once part of the wall is disintegrated, the greater numbers of hobgoblins, zombies and ghouls will probably simply swarm the defenders. Honestly, I don't know how in D&D you are to defend a fortress against a high level spellcaster, unless you have time to enspell the walls against transmutation.

[Giscard76]

Meh. Honestly, I think Hinjo's plan is doomed to failure. If he thinks he can just turtle in, he's sorely mistaken. Assuming Xykon actually puts some thought into the siege (he might be too busy playing with Redcloak to, though... You never know), he will have loaded up on the disintegrates. And once part of the wall is disintegrated, the greater numbers of hobgoblins, zombies and ghouls will probably simply swarm the defenders. Honestly, I don't know how in D&D you are to defend a fortress against a high level spellcaster, unless you have time to enspell the walls against transmutation.

Mostly by making him consintarate on defeding him self form your highlevel spell casters. V. and Dukon for example.

[Jade_Tarem]

Right. Do you have any idea how hard it is to cast disintegrate with Thor dropping Mjolnir on you repeatedly? :P

Also, someone mentioned Xykon casting Meteor Swarm. When did he do that?

[Estrosiath]

I just mean that there is a 30k hobgoblins army in front of the city. Xykon isn't stupid enough (well, he might be for comedic effect...) to just show up visible. He just needs to cast invisibility and walk up to one side of the wall that is bereft of the order, and cast the spell. Hell, he probably doesn't even need invisibility to do it. The OotS cannot be everywhere, and there are not enough high level spellcasters to cover all the walls in the city (which are going to be pretty long, I'd wager). Xylon can just blend in with the army, and during the confusion cast the spell. I'm sure the Order would seek him out, but if his order is to get in the city, and he is smart about it, they won't find him before at least one or two minutes after he started casting. And that means a wall is gone. I'm sure all this will be taken into consideration and Xykon might not end up using this tactic for one reason or another (or the walls of Azure city might actually be warded against spells), but otherwise it's not an easy tactic to ward against.

[warmachine]

I think Hinjo may be missing a trick: the nobles might switch sides. They'll know that if Xykon wins, they'll have difficulty getting back into the city. Xykon could just say "I might have left you in power but you weren't here, so I've installed my own people. I've decided I don't need you any more." Negotiating is hard when your opponent already holds most of your property.

Instead, the nobles might try to bargain with what Xykon can use: knowledge of the city defences, their own samurai and knowledge of the city to ease the occupation. They might switch sides.

Mind you, Xykon is the kind of person who'd accept the deal and then backstab them all.

[Alfryd]

Also, someone mentioned Xykon casting Meteor Swarm. When did he do that?
In Origins, apparently.

Mind you, Xykon is the kind of person who'd accept the deal and then backstab them all.
I really doubt he'd wait until their backs were turned.

[Josh Inno]

I really doubt he'd wait until their backs were turned.

So are you saying it'd wind up being a belly wound?

[Ampersand]

In Origins, apparently.

He casts it in the "bonus" material of Paladin Blues.

There's four pages of strips that occur between 194 and 195 that deal with Xykon, Redcloak and Shelby (a heretofore unnamed hobgoblin) killing the silver dragon we see dead in 195.

The exact quote:
:xykon: HEY! Nobody kills that many of my follows in one round except ME! Or maybe the goblin! Meteor Swarm!
:xykon: That, uh...that is some decent spell resistance he's got there.

[Vonriel]

Bwahahaha.. That is an awesome Xykon quote!

As per the nobles: They don't literally have samurai. They have retainers who, in the rank system of Azure City, hold the rank of samurai. There is a BIG difference. There is no code of honor that they need to follow, there is no ritualistic nonsense they need to observe. They are basically hired swords.

In Hinjo's position, I would do my best to pull up some obscure rule about committing your troops to defending the city in a time of need. If none existed, I'd create one and retroactively punish the nobles for it. Of course, that's assuming that I survived Xykon's push for the Azure City gate gem.

As for the hobgoblins, they'll never try and usurp redcloak, since he's proven that he can basically kill any one of them with a flick of the wrist when sufficiently provoked. I think the only chance Azure City has is going to lie in Xykon getting bored and going for another gate. I mean, I suppose there's a chance that they have some nation as an ally somewhere who could make it just in the nick of time, but I'm betting they're more or less isolated.

[Professor Tanhauser]

If you look at it with the RTS veiwpoint, Xykon is mostly running guy equevilent to the first mooks available from the barracks in a RTS. Hobbo warriors have 6 HP and zombies have 16 HP. Ghouls are 13-14 HP chumps and that's 98% of is army. Xykon is basically "barrack swarming".

Hinjo is tech-turtling. He has a lot more high tech guys but a lot fewer numbers. He also has whatever is left off his towers and walls. His allies dropped. He was attacked by neutrals and he "bought" extra heroes and elite units.

Normally Hinjo's plan should work but....
Don't forget that xykon and/or redcloak are likely to end up raising a lot of the dead hobs as zombies, boosting the army drastically.

[pendell]

As for the hobgoblins, they'll never try and usurp redcloak, since he's proven that he can basically kill any one of them with a flick of the wrist when sufficiently provoked. I think the only chance Azure City has is going to lie in Xykon getting bored and going for another gate. I mean, I suppose there's a chance that they have some nation as an ally somewhere who could make it just in the nick of time, but I'm betting they're more or less isolated.

That may be so, but he can only do that once a round -- slay living in retail, not wholesale. And he hasn't got unlimited casting.

Get them crazy-mad enough, and they could mob him. He'd certainly take a few with him, but even a small mob should be able to kill him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Alfryd]

There is no code of honor that they need to follow, there is no ritualistic nonsense they need to observe. They are basically hired swords.
Oh, you mean like most historical samurai were?

He casts it in the "bonus" material of Paladin Blues.

Bwahahaha.. That is an awesome Xykon quote!
My mistake.
Damnit. I am *buying* the book. I am *buying* the book.

So are you saying it'd wind up being a belly wound?
No, I'm saying he'd barely lift a finger, if y'know what I mean.

Get them crazy-mad enough, and they could mob him. He'd certainly take a few with him, but even a small mob should be able to kill him.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass?

[Orzel]

Don't forget that xykon and/or redcloak are likely to end up raising a lot of the dead hobs as zombies, boosting the army drastically.

There's only so many zombies they can raise in a day without scrificing offense and defense needed to take the gem. My dead Warlods Battelcry 2 Necrmancer know this too well.

[Talyn]

If you look at it with the RTS veiwpoint, Xykon is mostly running guy equevilent to the first mooks available from the barracks in a RTS. Hobbo warriors have 6 HP and zombies have 16 HP. Ghouls are 13-14 HP chumps and that's 98% of is army. Xykon is basically "barrack swarming".

Hinjo is tech-turtling. He has a lot more high tech guys but a lot fewer numbers. He also has whatever is left off his towers and walls. His allies dropped. He was attacked by neutrals and he "bought" extra heroes and elite units.

Normally Hinjo's plan should work but....

I don't know why everyone is assuming that every hobgoblin in his army is going to be a 6 hp 1st level warrior... I mean, they increase in class levels just like everyone else, their favored class is fighter, and they live violent, militaristic lives.

Every hobgoblin captain is going to be a low-to-mid level fighter. Every legate (in charge of a legion) is going to be a mid level fighter. They are going to have low level clerics and wizards (no INT or WIS racial penalties to hobgoblins!) at about the same rate as Azure city does.

And unlike Azure city, every single hobgoblin in that army is going to have a level or two of warrior at the very least - no commoners or experts in an ultra-militarized culture! I think Joe Hobgoblin soldier would be a match for Joe Azure City Nobleman's Guard (both 2nd or 3rd level warriors with equivalent stats and gear) and MORE than a match for a brave volunteer Azure city militiaman (3rd level Expert, or War1/Com2 or something).

[Josh Inno]

Joe Azure City Nobleman's Guard

That's a lot of names for a Joe.

[Vonriel]

Would you prefer Hank?

Edit: Oh, right, and my point about samurai was this: People hear samurai and seem to think of these eastern warriors who had such skill with the blade that they could kill fifty people while wielding it in the wrong hand and not break a sweat. That's not what they're talking about in the strip. When the noble says 'my samurai' he simply means 'my retainers'.

[TheOtherMC]

That's a lot of names for a Joe.

It was his father's name, as well as his father's before that....

[Demented]

If anyone ever makes a movie as clever as Princess Bride, it HAS to include this "Joe" exchange.

[TheOtherMC]

If anyone ever makes a movie as clever as Princess Bride, it HAS to include this "Joe" exchange.

" Hello, my name is Joe Azure City Nobleman's Guard...you killed my father, prepare to die!

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm not entirely sure you can scry or teleport into an antimagic zone. Most likely the spell will fizzle and Xykon will go to plan B - whatever that is.

I'm also curious about the cleric that can cast ressurection. He's lvl 13, at least, so he might have a shot at turning Xykon. As far as we know, Xycon can cast 7th level spells, if that's what we assume Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage to be, and we'd better hope it stays that way because if Xykon can cast 8th or 9th level spells, it's over already. So if we assume that Xykon has 13 or 14 HD instead, along with his +4 turn resistance, then the cleric on a good enough roll could turn him - especially with improved turning.
Xykon can cast meteor swarm. He is at least an 18th level sorcerer.


Also, someone mentioned Xykon casting Meteor Swarm. When did he do that?
In Origins, apparently.
Actually, in No Cure for the Paladin Blues. He cast it at the silver dragon that was later zombiefied.

[donkyhotay]

One thing people were mentioning earlier was the idea that once xykon reached the gate he would not be able to immediately control the snarl. There is actually no reason to assume he can't immediate control the snarl. In the dungeon of dorukan the only thing stopping him from controlling the gate was a sigil that only someone "pure of heart" could touch. Here there isn't a sigil to stop him, just the paladins. He may know how to control the snarl once he has full access to the rift and so is planning on this to defeat the city.

[Vonriel]

Well, I imagine some sort of ritual is involved in controlling the snarl. When you attempt to summon a being of another plane, you need to take proper precautions (summoning circle, protective spells, etc.) and I imagine with the snarl it won't be any different.

[Korias]

Ya know? Heres some thoughts.

1. Blade Wall (Or whatever, Blade Barrier, Or Something) will kill a good amount of zombies.
2. If you essentialy screw a zombie over by blowing it to smithereens, it cant be revived. Theirs nothing to revive, except a large pile of bone and flesh.
3. Durkon's little ability to make SONIC damage with Weather Control will certainly cause problembs. 4 Mile Damage radius? And he can cast how many of that spell per day?
4. Elan's Bardic inspirations. Im sure they probably have some form of loudspeaker system (Or they could possibly make one, Via the "Research Wizard" Career Path, see Hero builders Guidebook) that can express his voice to ALL the soldiers.
5. "PC"ing. Theirs always going to be somebody thats gonna do it. Going down in a last stand atempt and taking a few extra guys down with you certainly helps you out.
6. Even if something bad happens, they cal always Ransack and run. Destroy the gate, and flee. Hinjo becomes a member of the order, who in turn is fufilling the oath to protect the gates.
7. The Lawyers. Assuming that theirs more than 2, They can always pull a "This seige is in violation of copyright law, due to the exact nature being similar to that of (Insert Great Seige here)", and save Azure City.
8. The Booty Talisman. Roy will use it here. And Celia's gonna use her powers to call on her friends. Plus, shes obviously got some class levels (Probably Sorc), and can act as flying support.
9. Alchemy: Tangle foot bags by the bucket load, Thunderstones by the bakers dozen, and flasks of Acid directly into the Horde. Tangle foot bags buy time, Thunderstones take down the living, Acid melts away at the undead. Also, Holy water anybody? What about those Assassins sent to kill the King of Nowhere? Lots of Gunpowder.
10. Sabotage the Enemy. Grab some miners, have them dig a tunnel towards the camp, fill the end of the tunnel, which is under the camp, with gunpowder, light fuse, and run. Gunpowder blows, camp is obliterated. Also viable is to dig a tunnel, fill it with enough gunpowder to essentialy obliterate an entire city, and light it. Fire will go up, and if things go right, the fire will go down too. This will cause some major problembs for the enroaching army, cause they cant cross through fire without fire resistance, and then you have to be careful not to fall into the giant rift.
11. Mirror Image. use it, to mirror image the entire city to be To the left and or right of the actualy city, buying even more time as the invaders will go the wrong way.

[Renrik]

My second concern is that all his troops are infantry. There seem to be no troops with any mobility whatsoever. Thus there will be no sally, should the opportunity presents itself.

But they'll be fighting in a city, or on its walls. The effectiveness of cavalry will be dramatically reduced by the streets and buildings once the hobgoblins breach. It will be impossible to organize a cavalry charge. In fact, infantry are probably better suited to urban combat. And, judging by his descision to send all the civilians away, Hinjo expects urban combat.

[Laesin]

Just a thought. AC's main power base is essentially theocratic right? Surely there should be at least one cleric capable of putting a Forbiddance on the throne room before the army arrives, even if only off a scroll. That could buy some time. Most of Xycon's troops couldn't pass the save surely?