Death master VS Dread Necromancer

[Yogibear41]

Which is better? Which is better if you are already undead?

Death master has a slightly more expanded list, but must prepare its spell, has d8 hit die, comes with a free minion(can have a 3hd skeleton at level 1) + any it can rebuke and has medium BAB

Dread Necromancer is spontaneous with a limited list, but can also pull a few spells from other lists and has more spells per day, bad bab, d6 hd, and several other fear based abilities.


Both can ignore ASF from light armor, but the death master has to jump through hoops to do it.

[Amphetryon]

Which is better? Which is better if you are already undead?

Death master has a slightly more expanded list, but must prepare its spell, has d8 hit die, comes with a free minion(can have a 3hd skeleton at level 1) + any it can rebuke and has medium BAB

Dread Necromancer is spontaneous with a limited list, but can also pull a few spells from other lists and has more spells per day, bad bab, d6 hd, and several other fear based abilities.


Both can ignore ASF from light armor, but the death master has to jump through hoops to do it.

For my money, DN is superior. Its larger number of spells/day, combined with its Fear Aura, small but useful DR, and Charnel Touch, give it an easier time contributing over the long haul, in my experience. Couple Charnel Touch with already being Undead, and it becomes a viable Gish-in-a-can, in addition to the Fearomancy/Minionmancy options it has available.

[OldTrees1]

Death Master has a better spell list.
Dread Necromancer has better class features and Cha focused.

If Charisma or Undead are important, go DN.

[Zanos]

The Death Master gets a much stronger spell list, including animate dead at SL2, the earliest of any class. The DN becomes a better minon master with it's undead mastery class feature, but has to wait until level 8 to even cast animate dead, while the Death Master is animating corpses at level 3. The Death Master is "more powerful" by virtue of having a more powerful and varied spell list, but the Dread Necromancers class features actually support the archetype. The ability to heal your undead infinitely for free is very nice, for instance. As you get to later levels the Dread Necromancers class features become more sparse, though.

[Glodart]

I do not know the death master, but the strong points about the DN are the following:
CHA based spellcasting, which helps Turn Undead
Gigantic army
Healing undead at will
And the final point at lvl 20, free lichdom, although this can be a disadvantage considering the LA

[Amphetryon]

I do not know the death master, but the strong points about the DN are the following:
CHA based spellcasting, which helps Turn Undead
Gigantic army
Healing undead at will
And the final point at lvl 20, free lichdom, although this can be a disadvantage considering the LA

The majority of readings of DN that I've seen do not saddle a 20th level DN with any LA. Could you explain?

[Ellowryn]

Because rather than state as a capstone ability that you gain the Lich Template, it states the following:

"Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery."

You basically become an undead with the weakness of a phylactery without gaining any of the other bonuses of the lich template.

Now some DM's will allow a player to apply the template instead, but that is up to the individual.

[Amphetryon]

Because rather than state as a capstone ability that you gain the Lich Template, it states the following:

"Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery."

You basically become an undead with the weakness of a phylactery without gaining any of the other bonuses of the lich template.

Now some DM's will allow a player to apply the template instead, but that is up to the individual.

Nothing in the above quoted passage says that LA is added on. Did you only partially quote the text, or is the idea that they need to suddenly add LA an extrapolation from the above quoted passage?

[Yogibear41]

I do not know the death master,

Its in the Dragon Compendium

[Deophaun]

Nothing in the above quoted passage says that LA is added on. Did you only partially quote the text, or is the idea that they need to suddenly add LA an extrapolation from the above quoted passage?
It's a question of do you become a lich, or a "lich?" If you just get those features that are specifically called out, then you pretty much get nothing except for the type change (not even the phylactery does anything, but you have one!).

If you get the lich template, however, then there's nothing there that exempts you from getting the LA as well.

[Amphetryon]

It's a question of do you become a lich, or a "lich?" If you just get those features that are specifically called out, then you pretty much get nothing except for the type change (not even the phylactery does anything, but you have one!).

If you get the lich template, however, then there's nothing there that exempts you from getting the LA as well.

Nothing in the passage that was in quotes said "template," though. It merely listed the benefits gained.

[Ellowryn]

Correct, however the lich template from MM specifically states you gain bonuses above and beyond merely gaining the undead subtype, including but not limited to special kinds of attacks, special qualities, stat bonuses, and most importantly LA. People who do not fully read the passage of the capstone, which i pulled directly from the Heroes of Horror book, merely tend to see that its name is Lich Transformation and assume you get the Lich Template without having to pay gold or exp for the phylactery.

As Deophaun pointed out, just being called a lich doesn't grant you the benefits and penalties of the Lich Template.

[Psyren]

Even if you get the LA, who cares, you're already 20 at that point.

I personally prefer DN because you're not required fluffwise to kowtow to Orcus.

[Chronos]

One other point in favor of the Dread Necromancer is that it gets access to the Summon Undead spells, which gives you access to many types of undead far earlier than you could from animating them. They don't stick around, but that's still enough to (say) wis-drain the Tarrasque with allips.

Advanced Learning is also a big deal. The Death Master's spells all come from the PHB, but there are some real (onyx) gems in the Spell Compendium, Libris Mortis, etc., that the Dread Necromancer can go book-diving for.

[Psyren]

One other point in favor of the Dread Necromancer is that it gets access to the Summon Undead spells, which gives you access to many types of undead far earlier than you could from animating them. They don't stick around, but that's still enough to (say) wis-drain the Tarrasque with allips.

Another amusing point - summoned creatures cannot themselves use any summoning/conjuring abilities they have, but the spells say nothing about summoned undead being unable to create spawn. So with Allips, Wights or Shadows you can quickly kick off the wightocalypse, rebuking the spawn of your initial creature.

[Alex12]

The DN's lich transformation can be argued either way. I'd personally say that yes, you get the full template because why else would you call it that, but I realize others don't. However, if they're undead (and what level 20 DN isn't undead by that point?) or otherwise not Humanoid, they don't get it.

Death Masters, OTOH, specifically gain the template at 20, even if they're not humanoid (per RAW, I'm pretty sure this is the only way Alhoons can actually exist).

Between levels 3 and 8, Death Masters are better minionmancers, since they've got Animate Dead starting at level 3, the earliest in the game. But at level 8, Dread Necromancers can have more and better undead than Death Masters. DNs are also more versatile than DMs, since they're spontaneous casters. But DMs are at least theoretically safer from undead, since they have to make a will save just to attack the DM.

[Deophaun]

The DN's lich transformation can be argued either way. I'd personally say that yes, you get the full template because why else would you call it that, but I realize others don't.
And I'd say no, because if you look at the DN class as a whole, the class features that you are developing up through those 20 levels make you very lich-like, so it makes sense that upon turning undead that you are regarded as a lich by virtue of your class, not a template.

If only the phylactery worked by RAW, there'd be no problem running with it as-written.

[Alex12]

And I'd say no, because if you look at the DN class as a whole, the class features that you are developing up through those 20 levels make you very lich-like, so it makes sense that upon turning undead that you are regarded as a lich by virtue of your class, not a template.

If only the phylactery worked by RAW, there'd be no problem running with it as-written.

I wouldn't object to it working that way either if the phylactery worked the way they should. And even if I were going the template-gaining route, overlapping abilities wouldn't stack- you're not getting lich DR on top of Dread Necromancer DR, for example.

The only other complaint about that particular ability is that it really ought to work on non-humanoids. Why can't a Tibbit or Goliath DN go full-on lich (just as an example). Or, for that matter, a Necropolitan?

[Jeff the Green]

And I'd say no, because if you look at the DN class as a whole, the class features that you are developing up through those 20 levels make you very lich-like, so it makes sense that upon turning undead that you are regarded as a lich by virtue of your class, not a template.

If only the phylactery worked by RAW, there'd be no problem running with it as-written.

The other transformative classes (Walker in the Waste and Green Star Adept) give you the template's features piecemeal too.

Edit:

I wouldn't object to it working that way either if the phylactery worked the way they should. And even if I were going the template-gaining route, overlapping abilities wouldn't stack- you're not getting lich DR on top of Dread Necromancer DR, for example.

The only other complaint about that particular ability is that it really ought to work on non-humanoids. Why can't a Tibbit or Goliath DN go full-on lich (just as an example). Or, for that matter, a Necropolitan?
There's an argument to be made that the DN is more specific than the lich template and so trumps, and you become a lich regardless of your previous type. A necropolitan basically would be a normal lich who is slightly harder to control with spells; everything else is obviates by the lich's abilities.

[Alex12]

There's an argument to be made that the DN is more specific than the lich template and so trumps, and you become a lich regardless of your previous type. A necropolitan basically would be a normal lich who is slightly harder to control with spells; everything else is obviates by the lich's abilities.

There is no argument to be made about specificity, because the Dread Necromancer class feature specifies that it's Humanoid-only. This is in contrast to the Death Master lich-transformation capstone, which explicitly grants the template and applies regardless of creature type.

[Kennisiou]

Deathmaster is a lot stronger of a class, no real two ways about that. DN I find much more satisfying to play, as DM kinda just plays like a wizard with a worse spell list and some extra class features, but DN has its own feel to it.

[hamishspence]

Dragon Disciple's another transformative (PRC in this case) that duplicates a template:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

I figure the general rule is that transformative classes and PRCs don't grant the LA of the templates they duplicate.

[Psyren]

Deathmaster is a lot stronger of a class, no real two ways about that. DN I find much more satisfying to play, as DM kinda just plays like a wizard with a worse spell list and some extra class features, but DN has its own feel to it.

That's basically how I look at it.

Though it's pretty irritating that DNs don't get Desecrate :smallannoyed:

[OldTrees1]

That's basically how I look at it.

Though it's pretty irritating that DNs don't get Desecrate :smallannoyed:

Solved with a Ring of Desecrate from the online "Dead Life" article or by allowing DNs to use the Warmage ACF that replaces Advanced Learning.

[Psyren]

Solved with a Ring of Desecrate from the online "Dead Life" article or by allowing DNs to use the Warmage ACF that replaces Advanced Learning.

That ring is a handy solution, but they don't get UH UA either so crafting one will be a pain :smallsigh:

[OldTrees1]

That ring is a handy solution, but they don't get UH UA either so crafting one will be a pain :smallsigh:

Yeah, but for only 4395gp, you would rarely need to craft it.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but for only 4395gp, you would rarely need to craft it.

Oh I know it's affordable, but not all campaigns have access to magic-mart. And many DMs would be leery about obviously evil items being available at the corner store. But given the cheap price I could probably persuade a DM to let me pry that off a cultist's finger or find it in a treasure pile.

[Sian]

try the Black Market, trading with the vile underworld of whereever you are,

[RedMage125]

Even if you get the LA, who cares, you're already 20 at that point.

I personally prefer DN because you're not required fluffwise to kowtow to Orcus.

I'm confused at your logic here, because 1) Games that actually run to 20 don't always stop there, so it's probably NOT a moot point. This isn't 4e with its "hard cap" at 30. 2) Who says any lich is beholden to Orcus? That's another 4e thing.

Hamishspence, you brought up the Dragon Disciple and that's an interesting parallel, because Dragon Disciple grants the stat bonuses of the template over the course of the PrC. DN does not, which is actually an argument in favor of "DN does NOT grant the full template"

For everyone's consideration, here's a few points to consider, going by the qualities of the lich template:

The lich template has a fear aura, so does DN.
The lich has a paralyzing touch, DN does not.
The lich has DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, DN has DR 8/bludgeoning and magic.
Lich gets +2 to INT, WIS, and CHA, DN does not.
Lich has a +5 Natural Armor bonus, DN has +0
Lich has +4 Turn Resistance, DN has +0
Lich has immunity to Cold, Electricity, and Polymorph, DN is not.

Now, on top of all of that, I want to point out a little detail in the HoH quote others have been posting. It says that the DN "gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual)". Note something. They reference page 317, and NOT page 165, which is the MM entry for lich.

I think at this point that we should all be able to agree that, according to Rules as Written, a DN does not gain the lich template.

Now, we can argue from here to Baator about Rules as Intended, because we've all got different ideas about that. But I do believe, personally, that RAI was that DN's do NOT gain the lich template on page 165 of the Monster Manual. Why? Well, BECAUSE of what hamish pointed out about the dragon disciple (as another transformative template class), which explicitly grants the remaining stat boosts that had not already been handed out by the PrC. Although a lvl 10 Dragon Disciple has more than paid off a +3 LA with 10 levels of a crappy class. DN does NOT gradually grant lich-like powers, except for fear aura, and some DR, about half of what the template grants. Even at the capstone, DN refers us to the Monster Manual, and NOT the lich entry (which includes all the undead info on page 317 in it), but only to page 317. Why direct us to the book that has the lich template in it, and not direct us to the template if that was the intent?

If a DM is going to grant the template, a few things are worth looking at, namely, does the LA kick in? Well, at level 20, a +2 boost to some stats that a DN likely doesn't use, and one he does is a drop in the bucket. Any lvl 20 DN should have a CHA of 30 or higher or be shot in the face with a hammer. An additional +2 is a small advantage. +5 Natural Armor for free is nice, and would be worth a significant LA at low levels, but maybe not at 20. Turn resistance is something that every undead PC is going to want, and +4 means that a level 20 cleric (assuming regular not-anti-undead-focused build) must roll pretty high on the initial turn check to even have a chance, and that a level 19 or lower cleric CANNOT turn you. Paralyzing touch may not seem like much, given the DN's existing Charnel/Scabrous/Enervating Touch abilities, but it's at-will, and the duration of paralysis is PERMANENT, the save DC is CHA-based. That means that a 20 DN lich, even if he runs out of spells, has an at-will option to try and paralyze ANYTHING, with a save DC over 30 (10 base, plus 10 for half-HD, plus minimum 10 for CHA mod). And then there's flat-out immunity to Cold, Electricity, and Polymorph. As a DM myself, I would rule that at level 20, those things are not worth the full +4 LA, but they're enough to warrant SOME kind of LA, maybe +2.

Of note here is that the lich's phylactery and the way it works is NOT a feature of the lich template. Nothing in the lich stat bock or template stat block entry even mentions "phylactery", not even under Special Qualities. The ability to return to life with a phylactery is a feature of the phylactery, not a feature of the lich template, so a lvl 20 DN (who specifically acquires a phylactery JUST LIKE A LICH), gets all the benefits of it, without needing the lich template.

This means that all the people who suggest making your DN a necropolitan are right, that's a good idea, and gives the DN undeath earlier than lvl 20. But most of them assume that when you hit 20, you'll need an ally to kill you, and cast true resurrection, because the lich template must be added to a living creature. This is flawed logic, because if the DN is not granting the lich template from the MM page 165, then the DN need not go through the whole true resurrection process. The capstone ability of DN becomes gaining the phylactery and all of its benefits.

...I may need to make a new thread with this...

[Psyren]

1) Games that actually run to 20 don't always stop there, so it's probably NOT a moot point.

Sure, but your spell progression stops at 20 so your LA won't be delaying anything anymore. It's not like you'll fail to get 9ths because you have +4 LA at that point. Your only sources for more slots are a higher casting stat and Improved Spell Capacity, both of which are independent of your LA, with the only possible effect being a hit to your leveling speed.


2) Who says any lich is beholden to Orcus? That's another 4e thing.

Was referring to the Death Master here. The class fluff requires you to revere Orcus, and several of the class features are described as coming directly from him (including the lichdom) though it doesn't spell out what happens if you stop doing so.

[RedMage125]

Sure, but your spell progression stops at 20 so your LA won't be delaying anything anymore. It's not like you'll fail to get 9ths because you have +4 LA at that point. Your only sources for more slots are a higher casting stat and Improved Spell Capacity, both of which are independent of your LA, with the only possible effect being a hit to your leveling speed.

Yes, but that means a huge delay in reaching level 21, and therefore your first Epic feat.



Was referring to the Death Master here. The class fluff requires you to revere Orcus, and several of the class features are described as coming directly from him (including the lichdom) though it doesn't spell out what happens if you stop doing so.

Ah, I apologize. I've looked through the Dragon Compendium, but am not very familiar with it, so I thought you were discussing liches in general being beholden to Orcus. Mea Culpa.

[Psyren]

Yes, but that means a huge delay in reaching level 21, and therefore your first Epic feat.

Does it? The encounter/XP guidelines go out the window in epic anyway (along with nearly everything else.)

[Chronos]

Dread Necromancer says you become a lich. There's nothing that can mean, in the rules, besides applying the lich template.

[Deophaun]

Dread Necromancer says you become a lich. There's nothing that can mean, in the rules, besides applying the lich template.
There's a lot it can mean, because the rules do not cleanly separate out fluff and mechanics like 4e does. "Lich" can easily be a fluff term, and the fact that PrCs like Dragon Disciple and Walker in the Waste specifically say "template" in their capstones implies that, if the designers wanted you to get the lich template, they would have said "lich template."

[RedMage125]

There's a lot it can mean, because the rules do not cleanly separate out fluff and mechanics like 4e does. "Lich" can easily be a fluff term, and the fact that PrCs like Dragon Disciple and Walker in the Waste specifically say "template" in their capstones implies that, if the designers wanted you to get the lich template, they would have said "lich template."

Correct. The class ability may be called "Lich Transformation", but the full text for that ability does not mention the lich template at all.

[hamishspence]

Hamishspence, you brought up the Dragon Disciple and that's an interesting parallel, because Dragon Disciple grants the stat bonuses of the template over the course of the PrC. DN does not, which is actually an argument in favor of "DN does NOT grant the full template"

For everyone's consideration, here's a few points to consider, going by the qualities of the lich template:

The lich template has a fear aura, so does DN.
The lich has a paralyzing touch, DN does not.
The lich has DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, DN has DR 8/bludgeoning and magic.
Lich gets +2 to INT, WIS, and CHA, DN does not.
Lich has a +5 Natural Armor bonus, DN has +0
Lich has +4 Turn Resistance, DN has +0
Lich has immunity to Cold, Electricity, and Polymorph, DN is not.

Now, on top of all of that, I want to point out a little detail in the HoH quote others have been posting. It says that the DN "gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual)". Note something. They reference page 317, and NOT page 165, which is the MM entry for lich.

I think at this point that we should all be able to agree that, according to Rules as Written, a DN does not gain the lich template.

Now, we can argue from here to Baator about Rules as Intended, because we've all got different ideas about that. But I do believe, personally, that RAI was that DN's do NOT gain the lich template on page 165 of the Monster Manual. Why? Well, BECAUSE of what hamish pointed out about the dragon disciple (as another transformative template class), which explicitly grants the remaining stat boosts that had not already been handed out by the PrC. Although a lvl 10 Dragon Disciple has more than paid off a +3 LA with 10 levels of a crappy class.
Seems logical.


Although a lvl 10 Dragon Disciple has more than paid off a +3 LA with 10 levels of a crappy class.
The Death Master, like the Dragon Disciple, probably doesn't get LA.

[Vaz]

I prefer the Death Master, because I have to be difficult. That, and I hate the delayed progression.

With regards to the Death Master spell list, it was so early on that they basically listed every possible PHB spell. Personally, I'd allow it to learn new spells from later books that fit.

[Amphetryon]

Seems logical.


The Death Master, like the Dragon Disciple, probably doesn't get LA.

Did you mean to say Dread Necromancer here, rather than Death Master?

[Alex12]

Did you mean to say Dread Necromancer here, rather than Death Master?

I don't think so. The Death Master capstone explicitly grants the Lich template as a capstone. He's saying that in that case, you probably don't get the LA.

[hamishspence]

Yes.

Same probably applies to the Dry Lich template for the Walker in the Waste.

[Chronos]

Quoth RedMage125:

Correct. The class ability may be called "Lich Transformation", but the full text for that ability does not mention the lich template at all.
Yes it does. It says that you become a lich. If something says that you become a bear, you look up the stats for a bear. If something says that you become a lich, then you look up the stats for a lich. The stats for a lich are a template, and so "become a lich" means you apply the lich template.

Again, if that's not referring to the lich template, what is it referring to? It can't be referring to "a thing which is called a lich but isn't the same as the template", because there isn't any such thing.

[Divayth Fyr]

Yes it does. It says that you become a lich. If something says that you become a bear, you look up the stats for a bear. If something says that you become a lich, then you look up the stats for a lich. The stats for a lich are a template, and so "become a lich" means you apply the lich template.
It says you become an undead and gain the traits of one (even sending you to the MM on undead, not on liches) - why would it mention it if it was granting the lich template, which has that among its other perks?

Compare this with the Walker in the Waste or the Dragon Disciple - both mention the templates, unlike the DN.


It can't be referring to "a thing which is called a lich but isn't the same as the template", because there isn't any such thing.
What is the name for a human (or elf or whatever) caster with the undead type?

[Psyren]

Again, if that's not referring to the lich template, what is it referring to? It can't be referring to "a thing which is called a lich but isn't the same as the template", because there isn't any such thing.

This. There is only one entry for "lich" and it's the one in the Monster Manual.

[Chronos]

Quoth karpik777:

What is the name for a human (or elf or whatever) caster with the undead type?
Xykon.

Or maybe Richard, or Koschei if you're going all traditional about it.

[Deophaun]

Again, if that's not referring to the lich template, what is it referring to? It can't be referring to "a thing which is called a lich but isn't the same as the template", because there isn't any such thing.
Unfortunately, 3.5 isn't written that way. Look at the Dread Witch's fearful empowerment ability. It talks about creatures that are "targeted" by summon monster. Summon monster doesn't have a Target line, yet we know from context that it's not using "target" as a rules term, but rather as defined in the English language. Invisible spell mentions a fireball's effect, even though fireball doesn't have an Effect. It's the same thing here. The rules talk about the DN becoming a lich, but context is saying that it's not the lich in the MM, but rather lich as used in plain English.

[Alex12]

Yes it does. It says that you become a lich. If something says that you become a bear, you look up the stats for a bear. If something says that you become a lich, then you look up the stats for a lich. The stats for a lich are a template, and so "become a lich" means you apply the lich template.

Again, if that's not referring to the lich template, what is it referring to? It can't be referring to "a thing which is called a lich but isn't the same as the template", because there isn't any such thing.
I have to agree with you. The DN "undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich." "A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery." Since liches are the only things in the game that have phylacteries, it seems pretty obvious.
Besides, it's not like DN is the best-edited class in the game (how long does the fear aura effect last again? And what spell level is Death Ward? Exactly.)

What is the name for a human (or elf or whatever) caster with the undead type?
Necropolitan.

[RedMage125]

Yes it does. It says that you become a lich. If something says that you become a bear, you look up the stats for a bear. If something says that you become a lich, then you look up the stats for a lich. The stats for a lich are a template, and so "become a lich" means you apply the lich template.

Again, if that's not referring to the lich template, what is it referring to? It can't be referring to "a thing which is called a lich but isn't the same as the template", because there isn't any such thing.

As has been said, as far as ACTUAL RULES TEXT, the book does NOT point you towards the Monster Manual entry of the lich template, but rather, only the undead traits in the Glossary, which are the only mechanical traits you acquire.

This. There is only one entry for "lich" and it's the one in the Monster Manual.
And it's on a separate page from what the DN's text directs you to.


I have to agree with you. The DN "undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich." "A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery." Since liches are the only things in the game that have phylacteries, it seems pretty obvious.
Besides, it's not like DN is the best-edited class in the game (how long does the fear aura effect last again? And what spell level is Death Ward? Exactly.)

Necropolitan.

Actually, if you look at my earlier, longer post, I pointed out that a phylactery isn't actually a feature of being a lich. The soul-storing, body-recreating effects of a phylactery are properties of phylacteries, not abilities of liches. You will note that nowhere in the sample lich's stat block, nor in the lich template stat block is "phylactery" mentioned. not in Special Qualities, nowhere. The phylactery gets it own separate mention later in that entry. A level 20 DN is an undead spellcaster, like a lich. She has DR/magic and bludgeoning, like a lich (but not nearly as much); she has a fear aura, like a lich; and she has a phylactery, like a lich. But a level 20 DN does not have immunity to cold, electricity and polymorph like a lich; she does not have a paralyzing touch like a lich; she does not have turn resistance like a lich. A level 20 DN does NOT take on the lich template. DN has a class ability that is called "Lich Transformation", which makes her undead and gives her a phylactery.

[Glodart]

So, I think I am the first one who brought up the template and the LA, so allow me to clean things up.
First of all, like someone said earlier, if it says you become a bear, you get the abilities of a bear. I noticed that this forum, among others, particularly bashes on the inability of WotC to say their correct intent. However, I see people here taking their words to the letter without using common sense or logic. If it says you become a lich, you become a lich.
It is exactly the same thing as this: "The rules don't say what happens when I die, so they don't say I can't walk and act normally"
It says you die, you're dead
It says you become a lich, you acquire lichdom

[Amphetryon]

So, I think I am the first one who brought up the template and the LA, so allow me to clean things up.
First of all, like someone said earlier, if it says you become a bear, you get the abilities of a bear. I noticed that this forum, among others, particularly bashes on the inability of WotC to say their correct intent. However, I see people here taking their words to the letter without using common sense or logic. If it says you become a lich, you become a lich.
It is exactly the same thing as this: "The rules don't say what happens when I die, so they don't say I can't walk and act normally"
It says you die, you're dead
It says you become a lich, you acquire lichdom

Sadly, this doesn't actually clarify the template issue for the DN (or the Dragon Disciple, come to that).

[RedMage125]

So, I think I am the first one who brought up the template and the LA, so allow me to clean things up.
First of all, like someone said earlier, if it says you become a bear, you get the abilities of a bear. I noticed that this forum, among others, particularly bashes on the inability of WotC to say their correct intent. However, I see people here taking their words to the letter without using common sense or logic. If it says you become a lich, you become a lich.
It is exactly the same thing as this: "The rules don't say what happens when I die, so they don't say I can't walk and act normally"
It says you die, you're dead
It says you become a lich, you acquire lichdom

Except that the Bear Warrior is much more detailed in how the transformation works. It explicitly works like polymorph (except: x, y, and z). It also explicitly details which qualities of the bear the BW gains, such as natural armor, natural attacks, special abilities like improved grab, size, and so on.

DN's full text says you become undead and gain the properties of an undead creature, listed on page 317 of the MM. You also gain a phylactery. Note that the body-recreating ability of a phylactery is a property of the phylactery, not a property of the lich. After all, if you destroy a lich's phylactery, he remains a lich. Phylactery is not noted in the lich stat table anywhere, nor is it even mentioned in the template description. The text for DN does NOT say "you acquire the lich template, found on page 167 of the MM". The reader is, in fact, directed to a separate page in the same book. Directing a player to page 317 would be redundant if the lich template was acquired, because the lich template says "type: change to undead", which would therefore reference page 317 and the undead entry therin by proxy. At no point are you directed to page 167 of the monster manual.

No, a level 20 DN is an undead spellcaster with a phylactery.