Seeking opinions on the Magister and Hedge witch classes

[Kol Korran]

Hi there! One of my players seeks to change his character, and seeks ot make a hybrid of two caster builds (Heading into mystic theurge). He suggested two classes from a 4rd party which I do not know- The Magister (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/magister) and the Hedge witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/hedge-witch).

I am new to PF (though have some experience with D&D). While I've read their description, nothing beats actual game play, or the thoughts of better experts in gaming balance and mechanics than me. What are your opinions of the two classes? Of multiclassing them and then into Mystic theurge (M4/ HW3, then into theurge)? Any insights? Warnings? Suggestions and such?

If that matter the others in the party are a two hands weapons ranger (Massive damage dealer), Evoker wizard, Buff and defense oriented cleric, and a ninja. The character will join at 5th level.

Thanks,
Kol. :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

The magister strikes me as overpowered, because it can use all arcane spell lists (or all divine, if you prefer) on the same character. Frankly, there's a good reason why certain Bard or Witch spells aren't on the wizard's list. Furthermore, given that an arcane magister can already cast divine spells (at one level higher, and vice versa) I'm not seeing much of a point in multiclassing to a divine class.

That said, X4/Y3/Mystic Theurge is going to end up much weaker than either X or Y would have been on its own. So I don't think he'll be upstaging the evoker or the cleric any time soon.

[Kol Korran]

Thanks Kurald. I'm a bit worried that he'll feel TOO weak. He'll be 1.5-2 levels behind on spell casting. I explained this to the player, but he still wishes to pursue it... Oh well.

Thanks again for your analasys.

[avr]

If the player wants to use SLA early entry tricks he might get a bunch more spells at the cost of being only half a spell level behind in their best class, one spell level behind in the other. Magister 1/HW 2/MT 2 or Magister 2/HW 1/MT 2. The Magister class looks good enough that such a character might be overpowered.

[ngilop]

Since a magister can literally get every cleric/ wizard spell i am completely not understanding why your player wants to multiclass let alone theurge

since the maister is literally mystic theurge on steroids, to toss in an additonal spell list class and PrC on top would be

in my opinion would be above and beyond

not to mention the fact that the rest of yoru party will now be BMX bandit to his Angel SUmmoner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)

the magister is really too powerful as written. it should have been regelated to 6th max for spell levels.

to put it the magister is a class that take 1 'full caster' as their primary and then can select other spells as 1 level higher to cast

you pick cleric glitterdust is a 3rd level spell for you and such like that

NOW to add icing on the cake you cna pick up another classes main feature

wanna have a magus arcane pool and do all those cool magus tricks. this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ2HcRl4wSk)

oh and if that is not enough then you can just go and get some sweet mystic talents

I have experinc with this class and my groups are nul-optimizers (the wizard fireballs untill it stick0 the cleric casts a couple long terms buffs then just heals the fights face tanks and the gogue psneds a couple rounds getting into position to sneak attack. and the magister was just too much

its very similar to the advanced playtest class paize dod and what people say about that is exatly how the magister rolls

The hedge witch though is decent i like it its spell list is well balanced, if over focused on utility, and the class abiities are thematically appropiate and cool
(seer being my fave :) )

id recommend disallowing the mgaister as is *unless you truncate the spell access to 6th levle spells max)

is just basically 'i have that spell, chekc please' but only buffed up and on speed.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I'd stay away from most 3rd party classes, with those written by Dreamscarred Press being an exception. Usually they wind up being fairly unbalanced. In the case of casters, we really don't need even more powerful classes added into the mix.

I would suggest using the ruling that having an SLA counts as being able to cast a spell of that level, in order to allow early entry into Mystic Theurge. You can enter the PRC as early as level 4 with an Aasimar character. Add in traits and feats that let you regain your lost Caster Levels, and even though your top level of spells will be a bit low. You'll wind up with a powerful spell caster with minimal other features.

Alternatively, I really like the Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle Archetype. Full Divine spell casting and you get to cherry pick some Wizard spells to add to your list of spells known.

[Kol Korran]

Hmmmm... my gut feeling is that the Magister is a bit exagerrated. The Player however brings up the following points:
- The Magister needs two casting stats (Wis for spells known, and Cha for DC)
- Being a sponteneous caster he stil lwon't know that many spells, so access to many spell list just lets him tweak spell selection, not actually know more spells.

His main reason for trying for mystic theurge is simply to have more spells known, and thus increase his repertoire.

Your thoughts?

[Zanos]

Magister is definitely weaker than wizard, just by virtue of having a limited number of spells known. Depending on his spell selection he might overshadow other party members especially if they're are dedicated casters of varying types, but I can't imagine it will actually be any better than a good wizard. In some cases it might even be worse than a Sorcerer, since Sorcerers have gotten a lot of love in pathfinder in the form of favored class bonuses and class features.

At first glance it may seem better than a mystic theruge, but you have to remember that Wizards have (effectively) unlimited spells known and clerics automatically know all the spells on their lists. Magister doesn't seem all that overpowered to me. At least, compared to other spellcasting classes.