Here's to you, Rich.

[Captain Morgan]

I just wanted to take a moment to say I really appreciate Rich's work on this comic, and I especially appreciate that he seems to have grown as a writer and as a person over the years. OotS didn't start off that strong, in my opinion. But man, it has just gotten better and better. The last book REALLY knocked it out of the park. I think it's really cool to see the Giant's characters grow alongside his talent. On top of that, the Giant has expressed some genuine regret for jokes he made early on that were offensive (particularly sexist) and has displayed that his awareness of these issues has since expanded.

I just think it's a really cool journey to see. The most recent book was so enjoyable that I actually started playing D&D because of it, which was an excellent decision.

On a somewhat related not, if you were going to try and get someone hooked on the story, where would you tell them to start reading?

[Mrc.]

Hear, hear! Firstly, awesome name! Secondly I completely agree regarding the comic. This recent arc is perhaps my favourite thus far. Rich has created characters, killed off old ones, had the best call back ever and consistently improved the quality of both the writing and the artwork. At no point have I felt 'this is just a comic strip' like I did when I first read some of these waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when. Even the occasional joke (suspension of disbelief anyone?) didn't change this.

Regarding your question, I would perhaps recommend the prequel books if you have them. Start of Darkness is one of my favourite books ever. Not just comic strip, not just fantasy genre, ever. It takes pride of place on my bookshelf next to James Clavell, to give context. Origins isn't quite as good, but it has more than a few amusing gags, and all in all it covers the run up to the first strip nicely. Ideally whoever you are introducing would want to read the strip itself anyway, but if you really want, skipping ahead to the start of NCftPB can help to mitigate the pacing issues I had with DCF.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Totally agreed with the sentiment expressed here. The last arc was excellent, and quite possible my favorite book out of all of them.

With regards to which book to start with, I really don't think starting with #1 is that bad. Sure, it didn't have plot or character focus that the comic would start to get around #50, but it's still pretty good. I wouldn't start with SoD because I feel like it becomes far more relevant when you see what it is connected too, rather than just by itself (which is still pretty excellent).

[Keltest]

Totally agreed with the sentiment expressed here. The last arc was excellent, and quite possible my favorite book out of all of them.

Honestly, I think it went on a bit long. We could have cut out the entire battle on the airship, and the plot wouldn't have suffered at all. We already knew Tarquin was stubborn beyond all reason.

[Captain Morgan]

Honestly, I think it went on a bit long. We could have cut out the entire battle on the airship, and the plot wouldn't have suffered at all. We already knew Tarquin was stubborn beyond all reason.

But then we wouldn't have gotten the caster fight! I dunno, while it was a long story (The Giant is prone to being more verbose than absolutely necessary) there were just many good moments. There are things that could have been shaved, but I think the battle on the airship is a poor example.


With regards to which book to start with, I really don't think starting with #1 is that bad. Sure, it didn't have plot or character focus that the comic would start to get around #50, but it's still pretty good. I wouldn't start with SoD because I feel like it becomes far more relevant when you see what it is connected too, rather than just by itself (which is still pretty excellent).

See, I don't think "not THAT bad" is enough to make someone read 900 comics pages... If I really want to get someone hooked, I would probably try and start them with one of the more "Oh ****" moments and go from there. Those moments for me don't really start rolling in until the assault on Azure City, for me. The problem is that the comic does so much call back it definitely helps to read it from the beginning...

[Keltest]

But then we wouldn't have gotten the caster fight! I dunno, while it was a long story (The Giant is prone to being more verbose than absolutely necessary) there were just many good moments. There are things that could have been shaved, but I think the battle on the airship is a poor example.

I don't think the comic has any particularly good examples when taken by themselves. The airship fight was exciting, but as part of the whole it just drew out the fight with Tarquin a lot longer than it should have been. Now, that may have been what Rich was going for, showing how Tarquin has no idea what he personally is doing to the story, in which case, I really have no idea how I should feel about that. But if it wasn't, then it was just delaying the end. Try watching the LOTR extended editions in one day, and think of that feeling you get right after the ring is destroyed. That's the feeling I was getting.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Honestly, I think it went on a bit long. We could have cut out the entire battle on the airship, and the plot wouldn't have suffered at all. We already knew Tarquin was stubborn beyond all reason.
Eh, I didn't really mind it, and I feel like it flows fairly well enough (unlike RotK :smallbiggrin:).

See, I don't think "not THAT bad" is enough to make someone read 900 comics pages... If I really want to get someone hooked, I would probably try and start them with one of the more "Oh ****" moments and go from there. Those moments for me don't really start rolling in until the assault on Azure City, for me. The problem is that the comic does so much call back it definitely helps to read it from the beginning...

It's not really all that much. Also, I became perfectly hooked by starting with #1, and I imagine many others did too.

[Kilo24]

Honestly, I think it went on a bit long. We could have cut out the entire battle on the airship, and the plot wouldn't have suffered at all. We already knew Tarquin was stubborn beyond all reason.

Mmm... I'm not sure on that. There are several things that happened as a result of that which may still be important events in the future.

-Tarquin is now very alone in the middle of a desert. I doubt that we'll get 40 strips of him trying to escape the desert or anything, but it does provide a good reason why he doesn't just grab a flying carpet or pteranadon and chase after Julio's ship.

-It pushed Elan to the point of letting his father fall from the ship, evidencing his change as a character.

-It gave Laurin a bit more characterization. We wouldn't have known about her distaste of elves nor would she have been established as having any more motivation than from her relationship and favor with Tarquin. She was shown to be hotheaded and persistent in a way that previously she hadn't been.

I don't really know if any of these are going to be particularly important in the future, but I do expect that the Giant has a good reason for keeping the sequence in even if it's not one of those. It may take hindsight for it to be apparent. Based on the quality of his writing, I'm quite willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

And the battle was a total of three strips. Even if you're right, it wouldn't have been a significant gain to advancing the plot to cut them (especially since they are quite good for other reasons as well).

[Cizak]

-Tarquin is now very alone in the middle of a desert. I doubt that we'll get 40 strips of him trying to escape the desert or anything, but it does provide a good reason why he doesn't just grab a flying carpet or pteranadon and chase after Julio's ship.

Laurin teleported him back to Bleedingham. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)

[BobTheDog]

-Tarquin is now very alone in the middle of a desert.

No, he's not (panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)).

[Avaris]

Regarding how to get someone hooked, I'd wonder about somewhere in Don't Split the Party or War and XPs. Either hand them the book, or point them to a specific arc. Get them to read that for a bit, then go back to the start and the prequels once they like the story.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And the battle was a total of three strips. Even if you're right, it wouldn't have been a significant gain to advancing the plot to cut them (especially since they are quite good for other reasons as well).
Yeah, taking away the battle on the Mechane doesn't really take away a whole lot. Even if you were to take away some of the strips before that, you're still not really removing much.

[kivzirrum]

The most recent arc is definitely my favorite (surpassing War and XPs). I love that the story can get more serious and the stakes can get higher without the comic losing its comedy and sense of adventure. I mean, practically every strip still ends with a punchline of some sort, without undercutting the power of the drama. That takes some skillful writing.

Starting with the very first strip was a fine way for me to get into the comic, same with my friends. I think it's only looking back on those early strips that they seem as rough as they are. Not knowing how the comic would develop, the silly gags about D&D and the characters' humorous personalities and conflict was plenty for me to get interested.

[eras10]

I too thought the last arc was really excellent storytelling.

[Raphite1]

Try watching the LOTR extended editions in one day, and think of that feeling you get right after the ring is destroyed. That's the feeling I was getting.

????

The part where we're drifting through the bittersweet aftermath of the endurance, courage, and sacrifice of the heros? Understanding what all has been lost, and what all has been gained, and how it related to their characters? The payoff after the entire adventure?

Dang, I cherish that part of the films, and it has be crying like a baby every time.

The final part of the last story arc was Tarquin getting laid bare, letting us see what he is beneath all the scheming and charisma, and how fragile and hollow his desires for the world really are. Without the last rumble on the airship, the narrative would have left him as a brutal but affable presence whose worldview was never truly refuted as an option for pragmatic heros. The option for that narrative would have marred the story of the Order even after a possible victory over Xykon and the snarl.

[Mrc.]

My thoughts on the LOTR extended editions thing was "I really, really need the toilet right now." Being the lazy sod I am, I found myself in an unfortunate and dire situation: the remote for the DVD player was in the OTHER DIRECTION to the door leading to the toilet! This predicament befell me at roughly the point where the Army of the Dead join the battle at Pelenor, and instantly I was left with three options. Firstly, just hold on with all my might in the vain hope that the remainder of the film is significantly shorter than I remember. Secondly, hope that all my previous experimentation regarding the TV remote having no effect whatsoever on the DVD player was wrong and try to pause it that way. Or thirdly, miss some of the film as I relieve myself in the bathroom.

In a time like this, true heroes are born. Boys become men and men become much more. Sadly though, my epic quest was one for those made of sterner stuff, and as Mount Doom came into sight I was deeply regretting both the many soft drinks I had consumed that day and my decision to go with the first option outlined above. At this point in time, Frodo didn't matter. Neither did Sam, Aragorn, Gandalf or indeed any of the remaining members of the Fellowship. Had Frodo decided that the Ring would be fine if he left it somewhere near the volcano in the hopes that someone would come along and clear his mess up I wouldn't have minded. I was paying so little attention to the film right now I half expected Gandalf to pull out a swag helmet and start screwing with Hugh Jackman.

A little voice at the back of my mind briefly raised the Scouring of the Shire, but was quickly silenced. It wouldn't do to contemplate defeat. Around about this time, a casual glance around the room highlighted the DVD remote hiding underneath the coffee table in an attempt to gloat. Even if I were to reach for it, the strain on my already pained bladder might have been too much and I couldn't risk this. My plan of action once again confirmed, I hunkered down and tried to wait out the storm. It's interesting how the little tidbits of knowledge you have about a subject reveal themselves at the most peculiar of times. Like the fact that the final scene of the boat setting sail was the very first one they filmed. Fortunately for me, it really was the last scene and as soon as the credits started I threw myself forward with a velocity that I'm pretty sure broke the sound barrier.

I shan't go into the details of what occurred in the toilet that day, for I'm sure we all know what a man urinating looks like. The only discrepancy between that and this event can be summed up in the word: Niagra. Gingerly returning to the living room I glared at the discarded drinks bottles that lay surrounding the chair where I had been sat. Somehow it made me feel a little better. Reaching down to secure the DVD remote I was able to skip the credits and return to the menu, feeling slightly disappointed with my performance during that film. I was sure that had this been the cinema, I would undoubtedly have arisen from my seat and relieved myself like a man. But like the coward I am, I stuck with it and ruined the last part of the film. The worst part was, that disk had only been in for about forty minutes!

I decided not to marathon anything after that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think the point where I start getting annoyed with RotK is after the Ring is destroyed, and then the ending really seems to drag on. They skipped the Scouring too, which makes me even more mad! :smallfurious:

Wow, we've gone off-topic.

[Keltest]

I think the point where I start getting annoyed with RotK is after the Ring is destroyed, and then the ending really seems to drag on. They skipped the Scouring too, which makes me even more mad! :smallfurious:

Wow, we've gone off-topic.

realistically, even as an extended edition bonus, do you think most people would want to watch the Scouring at that point? It wraps up loose ends in the books, but in the movie its just another hour that people try hard not to go to the bathroom.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

realistically, even as an extended edition bonus, do you think most people would want to watch the Scouring at that point? It wraps up loose ends in the books, but in the movie its just another hour that people try hard not to go to the bathroom.

Well, it was more in response to Raphite's post. I guess my point was that the Scouring is actually an important part to the book, and reflects the things he mentioned better (and I enjoyed it as an ending). If they had it as an Extended Edition bonus (and I had the EE) I would watch it. Then again, I tend to resent most changes to the book, so you should take my opinions with a pound of salt. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Well, it was more in response to Raphite's post. I guess my point was that the Scouring is actually an important part to the book, and reflects the things he mentioned better (and I enjoyed it as an ending). If they had it as an Extended Edition bonus (and I had the EE) I would watch it. Then again, I tend to resent most changes to the book, so you should take my opinions with a pound of salt. :smalltongue:

If you watch one of the 3 movies a day, I could probably stand it. If its part of our yearly all-in-one-day marathon, I think I might have broken something. It was cut for the same reason as Tom Bombadil was; It added little to the story at that point (especially for a film) and would add a lot of length to an already incredibly long film.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If you watch one of the 3 movies a day, I could probably stand it. If its part of our yearly all-in-one-day marathon, I think I might have broken something. It was cut for the same reason as Tom Bombadil was; It added little to the story at that point (especially for a film) and would add a lot of length to an already incredibly long film.

I don't marathon them, precisely for that reason. I think that Bombadil was less important to the story than the Scouring, but the point about length still stands, so whatever.

[Rodin]

I found the Scouring to be quite important, actually. It's all about showing how the hobbits have changed, along with you can't go home again and how things change. It's a pretty powerful part of the original novel.

I understand why the Scouring was cut from the main movie, but the fact that it wasn't put into the EE was pretty grating. Add into that the massive amount of padding towards the end of the movie and you wind up with a movie that could have been a good 10-15 minutes shorter, with an extended edition scene adding 20-30 minutes for the Scouring.

[Keltest]

I found the Scouring to be quite important, actually. It's all about showing how the hobbits have changed, along with you can't go home again and how things change. It's a pretty powerful part of the original novel.

I understand why the Scouring was cut from the main movie, but the fact that it wasn't put into the EE was pretty grating. Add into that the massive amount of padding towards the end of the movie and you wind up with a movie that could have been a good 10-15 minutes shorter, with an extended edition scene adding 20-30 minutes for the Scouring.

An extra 30 minutes, with or without the extra padding cut out, would still be hard to sit through. Especially because it would otherwise come out of nowhere. In the Books, it was hinted at as early as Lothlorien, where its almost explicitly spelled out that bad stuff was/could be going on in the Shire. In the movies we see... fire and running hobbits for a second, where its basically portrayed as what happens if Sauron wins. In the books, we also see hints that Saruman has dealings with the Shire that nobody knew about, whereas in the movie he just has some pipeweed on hand.

yes, it could have been integrated, but if it was it would have to have been right from the start, and not as part of the EE, otherwise it wouldn't fit in with the rest of the movie.

[gerryq]

On a somewhat related not, if you were going to try and get someone hooked on the story, where would you tell them to start reading?

Seems like the start would be best. After a small number of joke strips (which also serve to introduce the main characters), the plot gets moving and the Linear Guild are soon introduced. I don't see any strong reason to start in medias res.

[gerryq]

Honestly, I think it went on a bit long. We could have cut out the entire battle on the airship, and the plot wouldn't have suffered at all. We already knew Tarquin was stubborn beyond all reason.

There are different ways to write a book; some are pared down to the essentials, some are generously filled with detail. Rich seems to lean toward the latter type.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Seems like the start would be best. After a small number of joke strips (which also serve to introduce the main characters), the plot gets moving and the Linear Guild are soon introduced. I don't see any strong reason to start in medias res.

Also, if you buy DCF, there are some good bonus strips that serve to introduce the characters better.