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ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 12:28 PM
So I'm playing a monk, and what I hear on these boards is that they are supposed to be mage killers, but in fact a flying invisible wizard will confound them. I've solved the invisible part with saving up for a robe of eyes. At first I was thinking of getting wings of flying to solve the other part, but inspired by the monk fast movement thread, I think getting air walk would be even better, because then the monk could use his/her fast movement ability (though some would argue this is possible with the wings of flying too).

Before I head off to the custom magic item creation charts, does anybody know of any item in any supplement that grants air walk?

elliott20
2007-02-13, 12:34 PM
why, a pair of vintage Michael Jordans of course!

But seriously, I think there is a cape of flying in the DMG that does what you need.

DaMullet
2007-02-13, 12:37 PM
You could always hire someone to make some shoes or something. Air Jordans, obviously.

Edit- Gah, Ninja-jordan'd.

Telonius
2007-02-13, 12:40 PM
A Cape of Flying would take up the slot he needs for a Robe of Eyes. I'd suggest Winged Boots or a Carpet of Flying. Winged Boots are slightly nicer, since they let you travel faster and have better maneuverability (though they don't last as long).

Jimp
2007-02-13, 12:42 PM
There are rules in the DMG about crafting your own wonderous magical items. Follow them and just apply the spell Air Walk to some boots. It's cost will change depending on wether it's constantly in effect, power word activated or charge based.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 12:44 PM
I'm curious where you heard that monks are mage-killers?

As far as the Air Walk, I don't know of any pre-existing item that does it. Cloak of the Bat gives flying as the spell, while the Wings of Flying give you an actual fly speed, which is different. As far as I know if you have a fly speed, the monk's bonus movement applies to it? That might be wrong, though.

Edit: also, you can wear a robe (for instance one of Eyes) and a cloak or cape at the same time. It's different item slots.

illithid13
2007-02-13, 12:47 PM
shoot, just use a rod of negation on the flying bugger... Problem solved. Especially effective after jumping really high after him getting him up quite high... then the falling damage will take care of him. Just get an item that gives trueseeing if they are using invisibility.

Telonius
2007-02-13, 12:50 PM
I'm curious where you heard that monks are mage-killers?

As far as the Air Walk, I don't know of any pre-existing item that does it. Cloak of the Bat gives flying as the spell, while the Wings of Flying give you an actual fly speed, which is different. As far as I know if you have a fly speed, the monk's bonus movement applies to it? That might be wrong, though.

Edit: also, you can wear a robe (for instance one of Eyes) and a cloak or cape at the same time. It's different item slots.

Huh, you're right, I never noticed that. My DM will be hurling curses in your direction shortly. :smallbiggrin:

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 01:56 PM
I'm aware of the rules in the DMG for crafting items; but my DM may give me a hard time about that whereas an official item will be automatic. Okay, so nobody knows of one, no problemo.

Interesting that the wings of flying give you a fly speed, meaning I can combine my fast movement with them. Great! New question: how hard would it be for a foe to sunder my wings of flying? That's why I was thinking boots over wings.

PS: Thanks for the rod of negation tip too!
PPS: I think I'll want an item that gives true seeing 1/day in addition to the robe of eyes. The robe is always active and gives other benefits and is just terrific for my character. But since it doesn't handle illusions, true seeing is still needed.

Edit: Here's the SRD for wings of flying:


Wings of Flying

A pair of these wings might appear to be nothing more than a plain cloak of old, black cloth, or they could be as elegant as a long cape of blue feathers. When the wearer speaks the command word, the cloak turns into a pair of bat or bird wings that empower her to fly with a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability).
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftWondrousItem), fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm); Price 54,000 gp;Weight 2 lb.


So I'm thinking you can definitely add your monk fast movement. But I'd hate to spend 54K and have it sundered.

Telonius
2007-02-13, 02:11 PM
If you're fighting a wizard, I don't think you'll have to worry about him sundering anything. He wouldn't want to risk the Attack of Opportunity chance. (And I have yet to see a wizard take Power Attack and Improved Sunder, ever.)

An object's AC is 10 + the object's size modifier + the Dex of the person carrying it. The object's hit points depend on the material it's made of. I looked around in the SRD a bit to figure out exactly what the stats on boots would be, but couldn't find anything.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 02:20 PM
Regarding the sundering: first he has to hit it. In melee. And beat it's AC, which is 10+your dex mod (and I'd argue also your Wis mod, as a monk). And then deal enough damage to it. Plus he provokes an attack of opportunity.

There's also some room for debate as to whether you can even try to sunder the thing when it's in its activated form. I mean, it turns into wings. Is it still an item?

Edit: simuuued!

Darrin
2007-02-13, 02:23 PM
Before I head off to the custom magic item creation charts, does anybody know of any item in any supplement that grants air walk?

I think there's a stance in Tome of Battle that grants air walk, but I don't recall... probably needs a high initiator level, otherwise you could grab it with Martial Study/Martial Stance.

There might be a PrC or two that grants it as an ability... I want to say Windwalker gets it at some point, but that's 3.0 FR-specific.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 02:32 PM
There's also some room for debate as to whether you can even try to sunder the thing when it's in its activated form. I mean, it turns into wings. Is it still an item?


That's a very good point. For some reason I was thinking that it would still be treated as a cloak, but you're right, they're wings. So I guess that means damaging the wings just comes off my monk's normal hit points.

Okay, now I'll have to compare 54K to whatever my Michael Jordan boots come out to :-)

Olethros
2007-02-13, 02:47 PM
I am no where near my books, but I thought that sunder could specifically not be used on amour. I would argue that a cloak, particularly one being used, could not be sundered under that distinction.

Of greater worry would be somebody using a disarm attempt, as it specifically gives an example of disarming non-weapons. And even in active wing form the cloak has a clasp I believe. Coarse now I want to disarm some bodies flying cloak and see them plummet, along with the DM's hopes and dreams.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-13, 02:52 PM
I think there's a stance in Tome of Battle that grants air walk, but I don't recall... probably needs a high initiator level, otherwise you could grab it with Martial Study/Martial Stance.

It's an 8th level Shadow Hand stance called Balance on the Air. So, yeah. Eigth level. You'll need to either be a full-classed Swordsage or an epic Monk to get that.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 03:10 PM
I am no where near my books, but I thought that sunder could specifically not be used on amour. I would argue that a cloak, particularly one being used, could not be sundered under that distinction.

Of greater worry would be somebody using a disarm attempt, as it specifically gives an example of disarming non-weapons. And even in active wing form the cloak has a clasp I believe. Coarse now I want to disarm some bodies flying cloak and see them plummet, along with the DM's hopes and dreams.

That's ... that's just dreadful!

There's also of course an imagery problem with wings of flying. If I'm wearing a robe of eyes over the cloak, how exactly do the wings sprout out? If I'm wearing the cloak over the robe, would the eyes work?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-13, 03:21 PM
That's ... that's just dreadful!

There's also of course an imagery problem with wings of flying. If I'm wearing a robe of eyes over the cloak, how exactly do the wings sprout out? If I'm wearing the cloak over the robe, would the eyes work?

Thank god for Slow Fall, eh?

barawn
2007-02-13, 03:28 PM
(And I have yet to see a wizard take Power Attack and Improved Sunder, ever.)

That so sounds like a challenge.

ZekeArgo
2007-02-13, 03:34 PM
That's ... that's just dreadful!

There's also of course an imagery problem with wings of flying. If I'm wearing a robe of eyes over the cloak, how exactly do the wings sprout out? If I'm wearing the cloak over the robe, would the eyes work?

A wizard would Quicken Dispel magic the cloak, then shatter while on their Flying 280' Movement Speed Phantom Steed. Or just... yknow, Resilient Sphere, or Enervate or Dominate Monster ya.

Just an fyi

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-13, 03:40 PM
Yeah, I'm still wondering about the whole monks=magekillers thing. I get the impression the wizard will still own up, even if you're flying.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 03:48 PM
A wizard would Quicken Dispel magic the cloak, then shatter while on their Flying 280' Movement Speed Phantom Steed. Or just... yknow, Resilient Sphere, or Enervate or Dominate Monster ya.

Just an fyi

Well a monk's gotta try?

I'm not sure if you can shatter a magic item just because you did dispel magic on it. That's a new one to me.

The wizard might be on a 280' movement speed mount, but except for an outdoor encounter, chambers don't get that big. If we fight in a chamber, with my monk's movement rate she'll reach the wiz.

resilient sphere - isn't there a save to be captured? monk saves rocks

enervate - no wizard is hitting my touch ac and getting through my spell resistance. (Well no wizard the DM is running)

dominate monster - again, my will saves and spell resistance

Monks are effective at fighting wizards because of:
high saves (esp vs enchantment)
spell resistance
high touch ac
improved evasion
dimension door (& later etherealness)
adamantine dr for getting through stoneskin
fast movement and tumble to reach them

The three major weaknesses are:
seeing the wizard
reaching them when they aren't on the ground
moving through solid fog/evard's tentacles/etc.

I am attempting to solve these weaknesses through magic items.

barawn
2007-02-13, 04:37 PM
I'm not sure if you can shatter a magic item just because you did dispel magic on it. That's a new one to me.

You were probably being facetious, but: Dispel Magic suppresses a magic item's abilities for 1d4 rounds. Keep a ring of once per day Feather Fall handy, and it's no big deal.

Dispelling the Wings of Flying is only a 45% success rate, too (DC 21, max of +10 on a Dispel Magic check), so it's really not a big deal.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 04:46 PM
You were probably being facetious, but: Dispel Magic suppresses a magic item's abilities for 1d4 rounds. Keep a ring of once per day Feather Fall handy, and it's no big deal.

Dispelling the Wings of Flying is only a 45% success rate, too (DC 21, max of +10 on a Dispel Magic check), so it's really not a big deal.

I wasn't being facetious; I'd honestly never heard that technique before.

At any rate, my monk currently wears a ring of counterspells and always has dispel magic in it. That should work if the dispel is directed at one of her items I would think.

ZekeArgo
2007-02-13, 05:02 PM
Well a monk's gotta try?

I'm not sure if you can shatter a magic item just because you did dispel magic on it. That's a new one to me.

The wizard might be on a 280' movement speed mount, but except for an outdoor encounter, chambers don't get that big. If we fight in a chamber, with my monk's movement rate she'll reach the wiz.

resilient sphere - isn't there a save to be captured? monk saves rocks

enervate - no wizard is hitting my touch ac and getting through my spell resistance. (Well no wizard the DM is running)

dominate monster - again, my will saves and spell resistance

Monks are effective at fighting wizards because of:
high saves (esp vs enchantment)
spell resistance
high touch ac
improved evasion
dimension door (& later etherealness)
adamantine dr for getting through stoneskin
fast movement and tumble to reach them

The three major weaknesses are:
seeing the wizard
reaching them when they aren't on the ground
moving through solid fog/evard's tentacles/etc.

I am attempting to solve these weaknesses through magic items.

Eh, you cant try, but if you have access to these high-end magics and the wizard isn't owning you then your DM is pulling punches. Nevermind that SR is meaningless (lets assume 15th level, so you've got what? SR 25? A single casting of Assay Spell Resistance means he doesn't have to make a check). That out of the way, welcome to being Mazed.

SR is pretty worthless, and if up against something with decent saves a wizard will just use spells that don't require them.

Edit: Oh, and barring even that, even if you do get within melee range of said wizard what are you going to do? Grapple him? Freedom of Movement says no to that as well.

barawn
2007-02-13, 05:03 PM
At any rate, my monk currently wears a ring of counterspells and always has dispel magic in it. That should work if the dispel is directed at one of her items I would think.

By RAW, I'm not sure it would, but if I were the DM, I'd be like "well, that's a freaking stupid typo in the rules". Rod of Absorption specifically says "targets you or your gear" - Ring of Counterspells does not.

A once-per-day command word Feather Fall is just 360 gp or so. I'd call it a "Ring of Flight Insurance."

barawn
2007-02-13, 05:08 PM
That out of the way, welcome to being Mazed.

How is that a win? It's not like it does any damage, or does ... well, really anything other than pause the combat for an average of ... probably about 8-10 rounds.

barawn
2007-02-13, 05:31 PM
I wasn't being facetious; I'd honestly never heard that technique before.

Bit of a brain freeze, actually - he meant Dispel Magic followed by Shatter. It really depends on whether or not a DM allows the Ring to counterspell targetted spells at your items.

Depending on how cheesy the DM is going to be, get Magic Aura cast on the Ring and any other magic item you have so the wizard won't know what to target. Then the Dispel Magic, plus Greater Dispel Magic, and probably Shatter in the ring would protect you, um, for a bit, at least.

ZekeArgo
2007-02-13, 07:33 PM
How is that a win? It's not like it does any damage, or does ... well, really anything other than pause the combat for an average of ... probably about 8-10 rounds.

Your kidding right? 8 to 10 rounds of prep time before the monk shows up in the same spot? Can you say solid fog/incindery cloud/forcecage/all other persistent AoE spells?

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 07:40 PM
Eh, you cant try, but if you have access to these high-end magics and the wizard isn't owning you then your DM is pulling punches. Nevermind that SR is meaningless (lets assume 15th level, so you've got what? SR 25? A single casting of Assay Spell Resistance means he doesn't have to make a check). That out of the way, welcome to being Mazed.

SR is pretty worthless, and if up against something with decent saves a wizard will just use spells that don't require them.

Edit: Oh, and barring even that, even if you do get within melee range of said wizard what are you going to do? Grapple him? Freedom of Movement says no to that as well.

Wow, you sound so defeated. It doesn't sound like you are having any fun playing D&D.

Look guys, my DM is not playing the Batman wizard to show us how much we suck. He is running published modules and playing the wizards in them. These guys don't have assay spell resistance, don't fly around on 280 foot per round movement horses, and have crappy fortitude saves. Besides, freedom of movement is NOT a wizard spell. Sure anybody could have a ring of it, but that would be awesome because then it's mine afterwards. But the point is he's not going out of his way to be abusive.

Let me give you an illustration of how a recent combat went. This was last level for me, so my SR was 24. The "evil" party was attempting to assassinate a political figure, and my monk was left behind for back-up. The rest of the party called me in, and I raced over.

Round 1: I immediately found an Evard's Black Tentacles in the way. I poured a salve of slipperiness over myself and entered the tentacle field. That round the invisible wizard up on the flying carpet took notice of me and cast power word stun. The DM rolled and it didn't penetrate my SR.

Round 2 : I used escape artist (with the salve's +20) to escape from the tentacle and I moved up next to the bad-party's barbarian to give our ranger a flank. The evil cleric meanwhile put up a blade barrier to cut down the political figure, which also cut me off from him. The wizard threw down a cloudkill on everybody. My monk was immune because she's unaffected by poison. The evil barbarian took the party ranger down really low.

Round 3: I flurried and took down the barbarian (stunning him initially). In response, the wizard cone of colded me [edit: actually the cone of cold caught the whole party] and the cleric flame striked [edit: again hitting everybody]. The cone of cold got through my SR but my improved evasion got me through it unscathed. Likewise for the flame strike (can't remember whether it was SR or improved evasion that protected me). The ranger went down. Between those two damaging spells + the blade barrier, the rest of my party was seriously hurting and the political figure was dead. On the badguys side, the barbarian was down, the thief was caught in the flame strike and failed his save, and no one had yet spotted the wizard or harmed the cleric.

Round 4: The party paladin threw some dust out and we discovered the presence of the invisible wizard on the flying carpet. The party cleric took down the enemy thief, before himself succumbing to the constitution drain of the cloudkill. My monk walked right through the blade barrier and my SR protected me. I went right up to the cleric and tripped him, though with the follow-up attack the stun was not successful. The wizard put a solid fog on everybody. The cleric responded with a harm spell from the ground and managed to hit my touch ac and get through my SR. I saved for half, but ... ouch!

Round 5: The wizard on the carpet got away and I mauled the cleric. Fight over. (I was planning on dimension dooring onto the carpet next to the wizard before he flew off.)

As you can see, all of my monk abilities were on display in this fight and I felt like an effective character. I also didn't feel like the DM was pulling punches. A ring of freedom of movement, wings of flying, and a robe of eyes would have helped tremendously though.

ZekeArgo
2007-02-13, 08:03 PM
Well I have to admit, other than the use of Flamestrike/Cone of Cold that was a well played combat. Easily could have gone either way though, since its only around a 50% chance your SR would work, and a shame you weren't able to protect your mark (Perhaps have a rope trick ready next time?).

Anyway, I just realized: if you've got someone capable of creating it, or a bunch of extra cash (and access to the BoED) then a Ring of Solar Wings might be your best bet.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-13, 08:23 PM
Well I have to admit, other than the use of Flamestrike/Cone of Cold that was a well played combat. Easily could have gone either way though, since its only around a 50% chance your SR would work, and a shame you weren't able to protect your mark (Perhaps have a rope trick ready next time?).

Anyway, I just realized: if you've got someone capable of creating it, or a bunch of extra cash (and access to the BoED) then a Ring of Solar Wings might be your best bet.

The cone of cold I feel was a good choice, since with his allied barbarian down, the wizard hit the entire party and did a ton of damage to the other three members, taking out the ranger. The flame strike didn't work out as well obviously since the enemy thief blew his save, but it did bring our cleric down enough that the cloudkill took him down too moments later. I know there's a lot of negativity on this forum about area of effect damage spells, but they have their place.

Yeah, had the power word stun worked on my monk, we'd have probably all died, so it definitely could have gone either way. As it was, 2 of us went down, and my monk and the paladin were halved, plus the paladin had constitution drain.

I'll check out this mysterious ring of solar wings next time I have access to the Book of Exalted Deeds. Thanks for the tip!

barawn
2007-02-13, 11:27 PM
Your kidding right? 8 to 10 rounds of prep time before the monk shows up in the same spot? Can you say solid fog/incindery cloud/forcecage/all other persistent AoE spells?

... None of which would really affect a high-level monk, who would just Abundant Step away from the AoE, unless I'm missing something.

Or be really clever, know about Maze's time limit and wait, and when the time runs out, go Empty Body right before it runs out, and Abundant Step away immediately.

Nice combat, by the way.

Quietus
2007-02-14, 05:21 AM
Aye, definately a nice combat - some nice, lucky rolls there, good job. And even of the Monk AS'ed away from the AoE, that would be a LOT of unfortunateness before he did. Oh wait, right, that whole immune to poison/superevasive/can't touch this ness of monks.

I've always pictured Monks as being excellent at caster-killing, arcane casters in particular. And this is certainly one situation where that was proven. Remember, not EVERYONE has access to every splatbook; Assay Spell Resistance is really just a cheesespell.

barawn
2007-02-14, 10:47 AM
Assay Spell Resistance is really just a cheesespell.

Agreed. At the very least, Assay Spell Resistance should be a targeted spell. I don't really understand why you shouldn't have to beat the opponent's SR with ASR in order for it to work. Then the spell would make sense, both thematically and game-mechanically.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-14, 07:45 PM
The other monk thread got closed down because of a silly sidetrack about what's cheesy and what's not, but I just wanted to say that many times I've seen people toss off on this forum, "Oh yeah, just dimensional anchor him. Just Otiluke's irresistible dance him. Just ray of enfeeblement him". You get the point. Well, monks have the best touch armor class in the game (except for clever shield ward fighters), so those methods of slowing down a monk are hardly a given. When my monk is aware of ranged touch attackers, like the time we fought a beholder, I make sure to use combat expertise to the max AND attack defensively. Sure I'm taking a -9 to my to hit, but with my flurry I'll still get a hit or two in, but my touch armor class goes into the 30s. I remember once when the DM only hit my armor class exactly even when he true striked.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-27, 09:36 PM
I just wanted to resurrect this thread for one second to tell people that in the new Magic Item Compendium, there is at last an item called Cloudwalker anklets that allows continuous air walk. There's also a phoenix cloak which is similar but grants perfect flying at the same price.

brian c
2007-03-27, 09:43 PM
You were probably being facetious, but: Dispel Magic suppresses a magic item's abilities for 1d4 rounds. Keep a ring of once per day Feather Fall handy, and it's no big deal.

Dispelling the Wings of Flying is only a 45% success rate, too (DC 21, max of +10 on a Dispel Magic check), so it's really not a big deal.

You don't need feather fall; as Fax said earlier, the monk's Slow Fall ability takes care of this.

TheThan
2007-03-27, 09:47 PM
*Sigh*
Wing tips of flying.


air jordans give a +10 to jump checks.

brian c
2007-03-27, 09:47 PM
Eh, you cant try, but if you have access to these high-end magics and the wizard isn't owning you then your DM is pulling punches. Nevermind that SR is meaningless (lets assume 15th level, so you've got what? SR 25? A single casting of Assay Spell Resistance means he doesn't have to make a check). That out of the way, welcome to being Mazed.

SR is pretty worthless, and if up against something with decent saves a wizard will just use spells that don't require them.

Edit: Oh, and barring even that, even if you do get within melee range of said wizard what are you going to do? Grapple him? Freedom of Movement says no to that as well.

Punch him in the face? Last time I checked there isn't a spell that keeps you from doing that, right? 20th level wizard only has 20d4 hp (average 50) and a 20th level monk does 2d10+str unarmed damage, average 11+str per hit. As a side note, Freedome of Movement seems overpowered for 4th level.

Aquillion
2007-03-27, 09:56 PM
Part of the problem with the whole 'monks as magekillers' thing, though, is that while monks do have good saves and a few other things to protect them a bit, they don't actually have much to do to a mage that other classes can't do better, and no reliable way of overcoming a mage's special defenses (which is what any real magekiller needs). Like you noted, you already needed flying and detect invisiblity just to have a chance against a mage... And Abundant Step is once-per-day, period. You really don't want to rely on it.

Really, if any non-PRC (and non-full-caster) class is a magekiller, it'd be Psychic Warriors. They can warp around more than once a day, Freedom of Movement themselves, make themselves totally immune to mind-affecting spells, detect invisible things, block energy and burst damage, even ward against Dispel Magic... they can't fly (not and fight effectively, anyway), but it's a lot more than a monk has.

But in any case, before you make yourself into a mage-killer, make sure you're going to be encountering lots of traditional humanoid mages. One big problem with your plan is that a big chunk of the casters a party meets later on are, you know, things like dragons and so forth (or mages shapechanged into dragons, even.) Having a big plan to get up next to them and start grappling / punching really isn't going to be nearly so impressive there.

Rakeesh
2007-03-27, 11:41 PM
Personally, I have to agree that Freedom of Movement is very overpowered. As written, it could be cast on a L1 Wizard who would then succeed in a grapple check against anyone, from a fly to a L20 Monk Giant.

At the very least, there should be a check involved against the person casting the spell, and the person making the grapple. Seriously, someone whose physical body is stuffed to the brim with special extraordinary supernatural tricks can be stopped by any old Druid/Rgr/Cleric/Paladin's Freedom of Movement? Bogus.

I'm afraid that if I ran a game, a wizard or a sorcerer (or anyone else) might be in for a nasty surprise if they tried it, particularly against someone who can deal magical damage with an unarmed attack.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-28, 08:35 AM
Just to mention another blast from the distant past, how about this one:

"Casting Water Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) on yourself and pouring water in your boots lets you fly."

Tack122
2007-03-28, 10:32 AM
Just to mention another blast from the distant past, how about this one:

"Casting Water Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) on yourself and pouring water in your boots lets you fly."

Yeah but if your feet got underwater (which would happen pouring water in your boots) then you would be rocketed up at 60ft/round until your feet are no longer underwater...

Human Rocket though... hmm...

Aquillion
2007-03-28, 10:48 AM
Well... if people are determined to make monks into magekillers (which, as I noted above, isn't necessarily what they're good at, nor really a desirable or commonly-called-for primary role), why not give them, as a class feature, some sort of 'super-grapple' that reduces Freedom of Action's effects to a mere bonus? This would serve two purposes: First, it would be an indirect nerf to FoA, and second, it would give them some unique advantage to grappling against casters, which they don't really have at the moment.

I'd be careful, though, about altering FoA itself. Remember, although it's powerful, most of the spells and abilities it's meant to negate are extremely powerful, too... reduce FoA too much, and you're just making Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Hold Person et all even more powerful and reliable.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-28, 11:03 AM
Oh wait, right, that whole immune to poison/superevasive/can't touch this ness of monks.

ZOMG MCHAMMER WAS A MONK/BARD. My world is shattered.

ZekeArgo
2007-03-28, 11:10 AM
Punch him in the face? Last time I checked there isn't a spell that keeps you from doing that, right? 20th level wizard only has 20d4 hp (average 50) and a 20th level monk does 2d10+str unarmed damage, average 11+str per hit. As a side note, Freedome of Movement seems overpowered for 4th level.

As for the face-punching. Good luck getting past the 240' Speed Flying Mount, Contigent Spells and Immediate Action spells (Celerity anyone?).

And if you think a wizard only has 20d4 HP at 20th level, your crazy, because a simple +6 Con item will increase his HP by 120 points, nevermind just being able to cast bears endurance if he doesn't want to waste a slot. Nevermind his own natural CON score, which any intelligent wizard will put at a decent level.

As for FoM being overpowered, quite definatly, but even if it was bumped up a few levels it would *still* be a prerequisite spell (or ring enchant) that would just have a slightly higher cost.

marjan
2007-03-28, 11:21 AM
a simple +6 Con item will increase his HP by 120 points.

That is +60 HP (+3 CON modifier). But still it is enough, since I haven't yet seen monk doing 110 dmg in surprise round.

Rakeesh
2007-03-28, 11:22 AM
I'd be careful, though, about altering FoA itself. Remember, although it's powerful, most of the spells and abilities it's meant to negate are extremely powerful, too... reduce FoA too much, and you're just making Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Hold Person et all even more powerful and reliable.

Not necessarily...I mean, other spells in the game have to deal with resistances, saving throws, and skill checks, right? Why not FoA? As it is, a 7th level druid can become totally immune to anyone's grapple. Every other spell that confers a benefit or harm to other creatures at that level must make either a spell resistance or a saving throw...why does FoA get a pass on that?

marjan
2007-03-28, 11:36 AM
Every other spell that confers a benefit or harm to other creatures at that level must make either a spell resistance or a saving throw...why does FoA get a pass on that?

Because that would make sense as much as allowing attacker SR against Stoneskin or Enlarge Person.

Edit: BTW it does offer SR to the creature you cast it on.

Rakeesh
2007-03-28, 11:38 AM
Not really. Stoneskin confers exactly one benefit: damage reduction. FoA confers a whole slew of them.

marjan
2007-03-28, 11:46 AM
Not really. Stoneskin confers exactly one benefit: damage reduction. FoA confers a whole slew of them.

Number of benefits doesn't have to do anything with the nature of the spell or the target.

Allowing SR to work against FoM would hurt casters almost as much as reducing Fighter's HD yo d4.

Rakeesh
2007-03-28, 11:56 AM
I know FoA offers SR to the creature it's cast on...but not to the creature that must actually oppose the spell, y'know?

Number of benefits certainly does have something to do with the nature of the spell in terms of deciding whether or not it's overpowered, and your example of Stoneskin wasn't really very valid.

Reducing a Fighter's hitpoints by over half hardly seems as mild a thing as letting the person having to cope with overcoming an FoA a chance at doing so without Dispel Magic. That's not really a very sensible argument either...

And besides, just how much trouble are Wizards and Sorcerers and Druids having with Monks and Fighters, exactly, that they need this (thirtieth) layer of overpowered protection?

marjan
2007-03-28, 12:10 PM
First of of all when comparing it to Stoneskin I wasn't discusing the strength of FoM, I was discusing nature of the spell and trying to say that it doesn't make sense nerfing it that way (which BTW isn't nerfing at all). Upping the spell level is much more reasonable solution. The druid isn't unstopable at lvl 7. He can cast two lvl 4 spells per day at lvl 7 and they last 140 mins which is far from all day long.

Second comparing it to reducing Firhter's HD was meant to show that it would hurt melee types more than casters. That spell is one of the rare things that keep your party fighter from being swallowed by the dragon (the other on is that dragons avoid doing this).

Rakeesh
2007-03-28, 12:23 PM
*puzzled* I was never trying to say a Druid or other L7 caster was unstoppable...I was just pointing out that, as written, the spell is unstoppable when it comes to grappling.

Someone gets FoM put on them by anyone, they cannot be grappled. Period. Without any chance to thwart the effect, any character, monster, or enemy cannot use what is for some of them an important part of their repetoire.

I also think it's a bit silly to suggest that this spell, specifically designed to thwart (among other things) grapplers, would help melee types more than casters. Melee types are already much more likely than a caster to have physical methods of dealing with a grapple...

But if you successfully grapple a caster, you're looking at no feats for Improved Unarmed, Improved grapple, a low strength modifier, a low grapple check, a low BaB, and serious hampering of spellcasting abilities without resorting to metamagic feats.

Clearly, in terms of grappling, FoM drastically favors casters over melee specialists, because casters gain more from the spell.

marjan
2007-03-28, 12:28 PM
I also think it's a bit silly to suggest that this spell, specifically designed to thwart (among other things) grapplers, would help melee types more than casters.

Does the Dire Bear ring a bell? Try geting out of his grapple with physical methods.

Edit: If dieing is one of physical methods then you don't need FoM.

Rakeesh
2007-03-28, 12:41 PM
Well, obviously you shouldn't be able to. However, a L7 Druid/Cleric/Ranger/etc spell shouldn't be able to totally stop , say, a L20 Dire Bear or something from grappling you.

marjan
2007-03-28, 12:46 PM
Well, obviously you shouldn't be able to. However, a L7 Druid/Cleric/Ranger/etc spell shouldn't be able to totally stop , say, a L20 Dire Bear or something from grappling you.

And why not? Dire Bear is dangerous opponent even without grappling. And to prevent him grappling you you must expend your resources, so it's not "no caster can ever be grappled".

Rakeesh
2007-03-28, 01:00 PM
I didn't say "no caster can ever be grappled". Please don't put words into my mouth, marjan.

My only point is this: Freedom of Movement should invite some sort of means for the person attempting to grapple the buffed character to have a prayer of success in it. Just like most other spells do. Comparing it to Stoneskin doesn't bear out, because Stoneskin has precisely one benefit, whereas Freedom of Movement provides quite a few.

It does not make sense in terms of the system for a L7 character to be able to cast, without any loss other than one spell slot for the day, a spell which can stop anyone from grappling with the buffed character. If the God of Grappling manifested in the area and attempted to grappled the buffed party, he'd fail. That's because the spell offers zero chance, other than magically canceling the spell itself, to overcome its effects.

Broke-tastic.

marjan
2007-03-28, 01:07 PM
As well as it would be the case of god of death trying to kill someone with Death Ward, as well...
And that is not "just" spell slot that is one spell slot that could be used for some other things like Recitation, Greater Magic Weapon, Cure Critical Wounds and so on, as well as one standard action.

Edit: If the god doesn't have means to bypass 4th lvl spell he really doesn't deserve to be a god.

brian c
2007-03-28, 01:19 PM
This is getting pretty far off-topic, but I think it would be reasonable to just make FoM give a +10 or even +20 bonus to grapple checks. That way you have a much better chance of getting out, but it's not an end-all beat-all grappling killer. I think the problem with FoM is that it protects you from magical (Hold Person) and mundane (grappling) means. How does it really work then? If it just kept you from being targeted by Hold Person, Slow, etc, then it shouldn't work as well against grappling.

@ ZekeArgo: In pretty much every thread, it gets brought up that wizards are the most fantastic things ever and you can't beat them because they have prepared spells and super magical items and whatever. I think it's pretty well accepted that Celerity is at least somewhat broken, and no one every seems to remember that you're dazed afterwards. If you have a 240' flying mount then whoop-de-do, you can fly as far away from me as you want but if you can't hurt me then it does you no good and you'll probably just end up using all your spells.

About the hp: like Marjan said, a +6 item is only +3 modifier (and with that, a 240' speed flying mount, and im sure you want some sort of rod too, pretty pricy stuff) so thats +60 hp at 20th level. Besides that though, can a 20th level monk do 110 damage in one round? If you look at my post in this forum (titled level 20 monk) I have a monk build with +30/+30/+30/+25/+20 attacks at 2d10+7 damage per, that's an average of 18 damage each, if I have Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical protection then I ge to ignore your magical AC bonuses, or at least enough that I should hit you 4-5 times, that's around 80 damage on average. That at least puts you into the massive damage threshold of >50, so you need to make a fort save. The damage could be a lot more than 80 depending on on how the rolls go and if there are any criticals (though I acknowledge the mage could also have more hp from good dice rolls. Maximum damage for this monk w/out criticals is 135.

marjan
2007-03-28, 01:31 PM
@brian c: The only way you can hit the caster is not to be next to him at the begining of the round otherwise he will just take 5' step and DD away or if you have reach he will use Swift Ethearelness. So try to do that dmg in one hit. And even if you get all of your attacks and hit for 80 dmg you will not force him to make fortitude save since you must do 50+ dmg in one hit. As for HP, that was wizard with 10 con and item that gives you +6 con (i.e. crapy wizard). More likely the wizard will have 12-14 con if not more so still you won't kill hin in one round.

Edit: Though I agree that some of these spells have downsides. Unfortunatly most of them can be negated through other spells. Celerity isn't good if you use it to cast Fireball (unless you are sure that Fireball will kill all your enemies). It's brokeness comes to play when you use it to cast Time Stop.
And problem with Phantom Steed is that you can cast spells while he moves that 240'.

Annarrkkii
2007-03-28, 01:59 PM
And I have yet to see a wizard take Power Attack and Improved Sunder, ever.Are you kidding me? You've never seen a Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword channeling Shatters and sundering at the same time? Talk about item loss... BUT I agree. The wizard being discussed here does not seem to be a fighterish build.

AND as per the SRD's Magic Item Gold Piece Values sections:

Boots of Airwalking

These highly stylish white crocodile skin boots feature white tassels, spurs, and gorgeous wedge heels. The wearer can act as if under the influence of the airwalk spell whenever he utters the command word, "groove on!", and looks exceedingly stylish.

Moderate Transmutation; CL 7th. 50,400 gp

If they are instead set to be a continuous item, meaning that no command word is necessary and they are just always on, the price bumps up to 56,000 gp.

Alternatively, you could go the other way and limit them to 3 uses per day, dropping the price to the awesomely affordable 30,240 gp. If you REALLY wanted to shave the price sticker down, you could cut it all the way down to only 1/day, which drops the price to 10,080 gp. On the downside, the spell, when activated on an item of less than continuous, lasts a mere 1 hour and 10 minutes. 700 rounds, to be precise. You could bump up the caster level, but the price would rise quickly that way, and its wisest to be happy with 3.5 hours of airwalking per day, at less than 10,000 gp per use. These use the minimum caster level possibile.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-03-28, 02:31 PM
Just to mention another blast from the distant past, how about this one:

"Casting Water Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) on yourself and pouring water in your boots lets you fly."

:smalleek: Is that a legal use of Water Walk? If so, my cleric will be the only flying character in the party once he gets the next level. But it might take some doing to convince my DM to let me use it, unless it's been okayed by customer service or something...

ZekeArgo
2007-03-28, 02:58 PM
This is getting pretty far off-topic, but I think it would be reasonable to just make FoM give a +10 or even +20 bonus to grapple checks. That way you have a much better chance of getting out, but it's not an end-all beat-all grappling killer. I think the problem with FoM is that it protects you from magical (Hold Person) and mundane (grappling) means. How does it really work then? If it just kept you from being targeted by Hold Person, Slow, etc, then it shouldn't work as well against grappling.

@ ZekeArgo: In pretty much every thread, it gets brought up that wizards are the most fantastic things ever and you can't beat them because they have prepared spells and super magical items and whatever. I think it's pretty well accepted that Celerity is at least somewhat broken, and no one every seems to remember that you're dazed afterwards. If you have a 240' flying mount then whoop-de-do, you can fly as far away from me as you want but if you can't hurt me then it does you no good and you'll probably just end up using all your spells.

About the hp: like Marjan said, a +6 item is only +3 modifier (and with that, a 240' speed flying mount, and im sure you want some sort of rod too, pretty pricy stuff) so thats +60 hp at 20th level. Besides that though, can a 20th level monk do 110 damage in one round? If you look at my post in this forum (titled level 20 monk) I have a monk build with +30/+30/+30/+25/+20 attacks at 2d10+7 damage per, that's an average of 18 damage each, if I have Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical protection then I ge to ignore your magical AC bonuses, or at least enough that I should hit you 4-5 times, that's around 80 damage on average. That at least puts you into the massive damage threshold of >50, so you need to make a fort save. The damage could be a lot more than 80 depending on on how the rolls go and if there are any criticals (though I acknowledge the mage could also have more hp from good dice rolls. Maximum damage for this monk w/out criticals is 135.

This has already been stated by Marjan, in order to do all of that you need to be within reach of the caster (which, since your utilizing the monks unarmed damage, is 5', since you don't have access to spells). You come within range and a few things could happen. You somehow manage to get through the wizards previous divinations (say he was lazy for one day) and come within 30' of him or so, even within 5' as further aid to your cause. You even manage to gain initiative on him and smack him once.

This triggers his Crafted Contingent Spell: Dimension Door X Range up into the air. The rest of your full attack at that point is completely negated, and the wizard has all the time in the world to time stop, forcecage, disintigrate the ground around you, cloudkill, solid fog, or whatever else he has prepared as his normal day-to-day spells.

Are you a bad enough dude to drop a wizard in one hit? (and thats just counting a Wizard 20 and not, say, a Wizard/Master Specialist/Divine Oracle/Archmage or some such, which isn't even a "broken" combo)

Edit: Oh and as stated before, the "Fast Flying Mount" is called the 3rd Level Spell Phantom Steed, and otherwise at 20th level a character can be expected to have 760000 GP worth of equipment. So in addition to the "rod of some kind" ie a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken, there is still a whole lot of cash left over to buy inherent-stat boosting tomes and anything else you may need.

brian c
2007-03-28, 04:50 PM
This triggers his Crafted Contingent Spell: Dimension Door X Range up into the air. The rest of your full attack at that point is completely negated, and the wizard has all the time in the world to time stop, forcecage, disintigrate the ground around you, cloudkill, solid fog, or whatever else he has prepared as his normal day-to-day spells.

Cloud Kill is poison, doesn't affect me. Feel free to disintegrate the ground around me, I have slow fall (any distance) so it's not like it's going to hurt me or anything. Solid Fog is only a 20-ft radius, so it takes me 4 rounds to get out of it. If you're more than 5ft away, you can't see me well enough to target me with a spell (I'm sure there are ways around that, but you'd have to prepare for it). In a one-on-one fight, how would you beat me? I'm not asking how would you annoy me (Solid Fog, Fly, Forcecage), I'm asking you how would you kill or disable me?


Edit: Craft Contingent Spell is questionable also; I know DMs who flat-out ban it. Just saying.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-03-28, 05:06 PM
Actually, some friends and I debated the Water Walk spell, and decided it would only work as a one-way levitation spell, with no control other than to turn it off. Useful in rare situations when a fly spell is unavailable, such as rapidly reaching the top of a tall tower from the outside, but not usually able to cause one to "fly".

And then I realized the combo that was possible with it. A 0-level cleric spell is "Create Water," with a range of close. It says you can't create the water inside a creature, but it doesn't say you can't create it inside their possessions. With an enemy who was wearing tightly laced boots, all it would take is a Create Water in the boots (with the excess dumped on the ground, or on their head if you're especially mean), followed by tapping them with "Water Walk." At level 5 (when this first normally becomes possible), that amounts to 50 minutes of being flung upward. At 60' per round, that comes out to 30,000 ft. And then the spell ends (you could choose to end it before that if you wanted, if 10,000 happened to be enough). Then the inevitable splat.

The two weaknesses with this are both with the Water Walk spell. The target gets a will save; and it is a touch attack, meaning the targets that it can best be used against, you'd generally like to stay away from. There's a metamagic feat that allows touch attacks at range, but it's not terribly useful unless combined with divine metamagic (else you'd be using a 5th level spell).

So, thoughts on this?

The White Knight
2007-03-28, 05:44 PM
In a one-on-one fight, how would you beat me?

For the answer to this question and more, stay tuned for the Monk vs. Wizard installment of the Battle of the Core Classes! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36559)

It IS a lower level encounter, however.

EDIT: I'm so tempted to bring Newton in on the waterwalk rocketboots scenario, but I'm no murderer.

Aquillion
2007-03-28, 06:32 PM
I'm not asking how would you annoy me (Solid Fog, Fly, Forcecage), I'm asking you how would you kill or disable me?We'll assume the wizard starts on their fast flying mount, because a high level wizard has no reason not to be. So. Acid Fog, forcecage. When you Abundant Step out, they do it again. Replace Acid Fog as necessary or add other spells that can hit through a forcecage until you are dead.

Or they could forget about forcecage and all that and just throw disintegrates at you until one hits, since you have no way of fighting back--even if you get items to fly with, there aren't any magic items available to you that will let you keep up with a high-level Phantom Steed. Heck, they could Magic Missile you to death (shrugging and casting more when your SR stops some). If they're in a bad mood or you try something clever with your stuff, they can Disjunction you, too--your Will save is nice, but chances are one or two of your items will fail. Hope it wasn't the one you're using to fly, or if it was, that there's a wall in reach. They could target that object with dispel magic and greater dispel magic if they figure out what it is, too. They could use True Strike (or Moment of Prescience, even, though that's sorta a waste) and hit you with whatever touch spell you were counting on using your touch AC against. Or they just Shapechange into something big and nasty and, you know, kill you the old fashioned way. And if they ever decide that you have even the slightest chance of winning--one teleport and they're completely and totally out of your reach.

Having decent saves and SR helps buy you a few rounds, but it doesn't do anything when a bit of wizard-cleverness means your offensive capabilities are roughly equal to those of a turnip.

Now, PvP isn't a good way to judge classes (by that metric, a 'true' healing class--and not the super-clerics we have now--would be useless). The way it's supposed to work is that full casters provide essential support to other party members. Putting aside horribly broken Cleric or Druid builds that let them fight better than fighters, the balance actually isn't as bad as the above makes it sound. But expecting to be able to deal with a high-level wizard using just a pure fighting-type is silly. It's actually somewhat insulting to your mages, really. Casters are all about having a wide variety of strange effects and situations--having a spell for every situation, and, as the saying goes, basically being batman--is what your caster is for.

The correct answer to all of the strategies I outlined above, incidentally, is "my wizard handles it." Your wizard disintegrates the forcecage, or dispels the whatever, or (more likely) does something to the enemy wizard to keep them from casting in the first place... heck, your bard throws a Silence over them and your wizard backs it up with a Solid Fog, then you wade in and beat them up.

The primary role of a full BAB class is almost always doing damage. That's what you're for--don't waste time trying to think of all the fancy ways your items and (extremely limited) special abilities and protections will let you negate a wizard, because they won't. That's what wizards are for; having your monk challenge a wizard to a game of clever tricks is like challenging a cleric to a healing contest or the bard to a singing contest or the druid to a game-breaking contest. If any full BAB class could cope with a wizard's bag of tricks on their own then nobody would ever play a wizard.

When you have a lump of monster waiting around to be damaged, you call a fighter. When you have someone needing healing you call a (traditional, non-broken) cleric. When you need sneakiness, you call a rogue... and when you have something strange, something really weird that the other classes can't handle (say, a cage made out of force, or mist that dissolves your skin, or a maniac on an invisible flying horse), you call for your wizard. You know why monks aren't the anti-wizard class? It's because we already have an anti-wizard class. They're called "wizards."