Optimizing excercise: Let's optimize a Dragon

[ArqArturo]

Reading this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347609-What-makes-Dragons-so-scary) (Props to Komatik and many of the people participating in it :smallbiggrin:), I realized -again- dragons have the potential to be the most terrifying of enemies, yet they usually fall short of being a flying bag of XP and treasure for most encounters.

So, let's do an exercise to make a dragon really scary. I can't really say that this is a Iron chef sort of challenge, because it really isn't.

The rules are simple: Your dragon will be facing a party of adventurers consisting of:

1.- Wizard (Gray Elf Generalist)
2.- Druid (halfling, supermount, sort of tank-ish)
3.- Cleric (Human vanilla CoDzilla melee beast)
4.- Bard (Human general buffer and comic relief)
5.- Duskblade gish (Illumian, Aesh + Krau sigils)

And no, I'm not DMing this IRL, it's for the sake of the excercise :smallamused:.

The party is level 12, but you can adjust a couple of levels more in the dragon just because it's a dragon, they don't play nice.

The dragon's lair is heavily forested (thus the druid feels comfortable in tracking down the dragon) and there are three major locations which you can choose two (a decoy and a real lair):

Hollowed out mountaintop
Caves going down the mountain
Underwater lair in a lake, right beside the mountain

In my case, I'll be picking a vanilla adult Green Dragon, sans some of the feats. His stats are as follows:

Str 27
Dex 10
Con 21
Int 16
Wis 17
Cha 16

Feats: Power Attack, Blind Fight, Mother Cyst (for cyst spells), Leadership, Flyby Attack, Hover, Adroit Flyby attack.

Spells:

lvl 0: Detect magic, Prestidigitation, Message, Arcane Mark, Silent Portal, Read Magic
lvl 1: Necrotic Awareness, Shield, Spirit Worm
lvl 2: Necrotic Scrying, Bear's Endurance

This dragon is a little paranoid, hence it has been toying with some necromantic spells in order to watch over its surroundings. It has kept a Hobgoblin warren nearby, and its follower (a hobgoblin beguiler with the Mother Cyst feat) keeps him informed of possible threats, the rest are hobgoblins with Scout/Rogue levels. It also keeps a group of trolls nearby to keep the area well-guarded (charmed at first, but then made strong allies once the dragon offered them tasty adventurers to eat, plus a village, now turned into an abandoned town).

The lair is the underwater cave, and the bait is the mountaintop, which is made with rocky traps meant to trap adventurers, and have the trolls eat them. The hobs only move when they are close to the lake, and have the area trapped. The dragon is aware of such traps and knows where they are.

[Ansem]

Abyssal Drake is 10HD+5LA, buyoff for 10HD+6 class levels (or as DM, 10HD+10 Class levels)
Nice things can be done here.

[Vaz]

Very Old Loredrake Steel Dragon, advanced +2 HD, takes Epic Spellcasting at that level, CR14 with Point buy.

Stats - who cares? It's got epic spellcasting with 3 Epic Spells a day.

[Incanur]

If the party's into scry-and-die tactics, make sure all lairs are lined with lead.

The steel dragon probably constitutes the greatest threat because of its low CR and high spellcasting ability.

[ArqArturo]

Yup, just noticed the Steel Dragon, and all I have to say is daaaamn.

[Incanur]

The CR was either a misprint or sheer stupidity. Either way, it's a mistake.

[ArqArturo]

I'm guessing there's an errata for it? Either way, I'm definitely getting this dragon as... Something. An NPC, an antagonist (Steel Dragon assassin, maybe? The concept, not the PrC), maybe an ally.

Either way, I will probably create a CR 12-14 Steel Dragon something for the lair.

[One Step Two]

I like the idea of this thread, so I am going to optimize a CR 13, Young Adult Red Dragon.

The stats as they are coming out of the box are pretty neat, and you can get away with a lot as is.

Feats:
Improved Initiative, Flyby Attack, Hover, Snatch, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Ardoit Flyby Attack.

Skills:
Max Ranks in Spot and Listen and UMD, Cross Class Ranks in Tumble to as high as you can go, and at least 5 ranks in Balance. Also, as many ranks in Spellcraft that can be afforded, even if cross class.

Spells Known:
1st: Alarm, Hoard Gullet, Wall of Smoke, Shock and Awe, Nerveskitter
2nd: Scintilating Scales, Incendiary Slime.

Things to remember: Silly amounts of treasure includes scrolls and potions. Having up things like Permanent Arcane Sight is good, and scrolls of Mirror Image or Blur to augment it's fearsome defensive strengths. Don't forget to include Rings of Cold resistance, which are a matter of course really, or to be especially nasty, use high level scrolls of Energy Immunity (Cold).

Incendiary slime is a favorite spell of mine, and should be for most Red dragons. If they dont have 5 ranks in balance, opponents are Flat-footed, and ripe to be struck by shock and awe if you get the drop on them, and increasing the damage of your fire breath by 4d6, though they would usually be prepared for that, but super handy all the same. Wall of Smoke is used to grant concealment from enemies, and force fort saves, not always going to work, but an awesome spell to cover an escape.

Red Dragons like their shinies, and don't like to burn adventurers right away, feats like Snatch, Flyby attack, and Adroit Flyby attack are to enable that. Using the aforementioned Arcane sight to try and determine who might be lit up with freedom of movement helps a ton in this regards. Fly over enemies, bite and snatch, fly up, and drop. Rinse and repeat for stubborn examples. For melee enemies, improved disarm is your friend. This can be used as part of your flyby attack, But you can just make a disarm check; with 30+ strength, and 3 size categories on your foes, their weapons are now your weapon. With an Active Hoard Gullet spell, you can use a move action to swallow it, and save it for later examination, since you made the attack with an empty claw. :smallbiggrin:

Spellcasters and their sneaky sneaky Shivering Touch spells can be dangerous, no doubt, but you're a dragon, you're pretty rich. Aforementioned scroll of energy immunity cold is nice, or the fact you can pay someone to Craft a contingent spell into your hide for such occasions are something you can do to cover your scales. It may deprive you of some shinies, but being dead means you cannot enjoy said shinies.

Enjoy!

[Twilightwyrm]

I was thinking over the "Shivering Touch" problem after reading the thread you link to and it occurred to me: why don't more dragons bind Nebarius? While he has long been used to offset the Con damage for Hellfire Warlocks, it occurs to me that for a dragon binding him, Shivering Touch goes from potentially lethal weakness to just an inconvenience. Since an ability score cannot be reduced into negatives, it doesn't matter how much Dex damage the offending spell-caster deals; as soon as its turn rolls around, the dragon recovers 1 point of Dex, and is moving again (and probably very annoyed). The binding DC is only 15, so while he Dragon will only (in this case) have a +4, it is very doable, and failure only means that the dragon must put up with butting in with its superior knowledge when a topic is being discussed (which, being a dragon, it is liable to do anyways). And all this costs is a feat, or a single level of Binder (but since most dragons players will be fighting may lack class levels, a feat will do). Even if it is not the perfect defense (and it isn't), I would imagine it will help, as a back-up plan if your frost immunity/scintillating scales is dispelled.

[Coidzor]

I'm guessing there's an errata for it? Either way, I'm definitely getting this dragon as... Something. An NPC, an antagonist (Steel Dragon assassin, maybe? The concept, not the PrC), maybe an ally.

Either way, I will probably create a CR 12-14 Steel Dragon something for the lair.

Are you looking at this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a)or the most recent version that's in one of the books for Forgotten Realms, Dragons of Faerun, IIRC. & then there's the Dragon 339 version, too. Whee, three versions!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Steel Dragon was going to be my go-to choice, but that's a bit unfair, and they're often good aligned or at least nonevil. Plus they're not the best choice to demonstrate how powerful dragons in general can be, since they have an unfair advantage in spellcasting.

I'll go with an Adult Shadow Dragon Mindbender 1 (CR 14). Having any class levels gives him the elite array for free, which is 25 pointbuy, I've given him five 12's and one 13, and a +1 for his 20th HD at his first class level. All true dragons get the default class skills plus three more specific to their color/type, but the Draconomicon has none listed for a Shadow Dragon, so Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently should be fitting. Since he has a class level, I'll give him a few signature items which count toward part of his horde, instead of a full set of gear for an NPC of his ECL.

Stat Block:
Dakastian: Male adult shadow dragon mindbender 1; CR 14;
Large dragon; HD 19d12+1d10+80, hp 214; Init +1; Spd 80 ft., fly
150 ft. (average); AC 31, touch 9, flat-footed 30; Base Atk +19;
Grp +29; Atk +24 melee (2d6+6, bite); Full Atk +24 melee (2d6+6,
bite), +22 melee (1d8+3, 2 claws), +22 melee (1d6+3, 2 wings),
+22 melee (1d8+9, tail slap); Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with
bite); SA breath weapon, spells, spell-like abilities; SQ blindsense
60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., immunity to energy drain, magic sleep
effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance 22, shadow
blend, DR 5/magic, telepathy 100 ft.; AL CE; SV Fort +17, Ref +12,
Will +19; Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 22.

Skills and Feats: Bluff +29, Concentration +27, Diplomacy +31,
Hide +19, Intimidate +31, Jump +26, Knowledge (arcana) +29,
Listen +28, Move Silently +23, Search +28, Sense Motive +29,
Spellcraft +31, Spot +28; Flaw: Vunlerable; Improved Flight, Fell
Drain Spell, Practical Metamagic: Fell Drain Spell, Multiattack,
Practiced Spellcaster, Invisible Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Mindsight.

Breath Weapon (Su): 40-ft. cone, 3 negative levels, Reflex DC 24
half. The saving throw to remove a negative level is also DC 24.

Spell-like abilities (Sp): 3/day mirror image; 2/day dimension door;
caster level 10th.

Frightful presence (Ex): 180 ft., DC 26.

Spells: As 6th-level sorcerer, caster level 10th, 6/8/7/4 per day.
Sorcerer Spells Known (7/4/2/1; save DC 16 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, create water, detect magic, ghost sound,
prestidigitation, sonic snap, stick; 1st—alarm, charm person,
power word: pain, wall of smoke; 2nd—arcane turmoil, ray of
stupidity; 3rd—deeper darkness.

Signature items: circlet of rapid casting, two lesser metamagic rods
of extend spell, Scroll of Resist Energy (caster level 7th).

Lair:
Each day he casts two Lesser Rod of Extended Invisible Deeper Darkness spells on small stones, and uses Stick to secure them to a surface to ensure his entire lair is completely covered in the effect. He always has forty such effects active at any given time, three he carries on his person, one adorning each wing and one worn around his neck, the other thirty-seven are spread throughout his lair. Invisible Deeper Darkness does not shed the normal shadowy illumination, it merely cancels natural light and magical light of a lower spell level. Creatures who cannot see the invisible spells can use darkvision in the area normally, but creatures who can see invisibility will be affected by the magical darkness normally.

Each deeper darkness effect cancels out one Daylight effect one-for-one and vise versa, so it takes at least as many overlapping Daylight effects as the number of Deeper Darkness effects present to allow natural light to prevail, and one more to actually affect an area with a Daylight spell. There will always be four or five Deeper Darkness effects present where he is, possibly two overlapping plus the three he carries with him. Thus he will always have total concealment due to his shadow blend ability. Note that any light outside the effect of one of these spells can still be seen by a creature within the spell's effect, the light just won't shine into the effect. He keeps many fires burning throughout his lair to easily detect whether his darkness effects are canceled, and to make the area hot and smoky.

Each day he casts Lesser Rod of Extended Alarm at the entrance to his lair, every fifth day he casts it twice due to its 20-hour duration. It's the version that silently alerts him to the presence of any creatures. He always casts his daily spells before resting to recover them, so he always has all of his spell slots available for most of the day when intruders would be expected. The tunnel leading into his lair has several pit traps, so intruders must proceed carefully and slowly. Near the ceiling of each chamber there are quite a few nets full of bales of dry grass and rocks the size of a man's head, each hanging over one of the fires he keeps burning. He typically releases these to create noise to mask the verbal components of his spells, which always results in an audible crackling of fire that cannot be seen due to the darkness effects.

The lair itself consists of three chambers, the first is quite deep, the entrance tunnel comes to a sheer cliff and the first chamber is 50 ft. below. On the opposite wall 150 ft. away, 100 ft. off the floor is the entrance to the second chamber, the floor of which is 50 ft. below the entrance. The third chamber is only accessible through a hole in the ceiling of the second chamber, 150 ft. off the floor. It's in this third chamber that he keeps his hoard and rests, and it has a wall that's thin enough that he can use Dimension Door to exit or enter the lair when necessary. There's a large black canvas spread across the floor, a sail taken from a pirate ship he plundered, which his hoard rests atop of. If he's facing defeat he'll Dimension Door to this chamber, grab the canvas and all his treasure in it, and Dimension Door outside the lair and simply fly away. He can use Dimension Door from the top of the first chamber or from within the second chamber to reach the third chamber.

Tactics:
Upon detecting intruders, he'll make his way to the first chamber, the pit traps should give him plenty of time. He'll position himself above the entrance, and use Mindsight and Darkvision to observe intruders. Note that his Shadow Blend ability makes it so nobody will ever have line of sight to him, so it's impossible to detect him using any type of vision. He casts Invisible Wall of Smoke filling the end of the entrance tunnel where it comes into the first chamber as they're making their way there, as soon as they're within range of his Mindsight. He'll use Telepathy to communicate with a weak-minded intruder, posing as a ghost of a child pleading for help and for them to hurry in. He'll tell the party about wicked pyromancer cultist ghosts that ambush from the walls, and the demons of fire and darkness wielding swords of black flames. His bluff check should be more than sufficient to distract the party and get them to spend spells to protect themselves from fire, and he makes sure to take note of how many intruders there are, who is casting what, and whose minds he cannot see due to immunity to mind-affecting abilities.

As though he's a frightened child, he exclaims to their minds that "Oh no, they're here!" as he drops a net of stones and hay into a fire and casts Lesser Rod of Extended Fell Drain Power Word: Pain on two known spellcasters (or anyone with a spell component pouch or divine focus) using the Circlet of Rapid Casting for one of those. He always speaks verbal components of spells in Ignan and into the largest part of the chamber so it echoes throughout, using bluff to throw his voice opposed by their listen checks, and the crashing of the rocks and the crackling of the fires flaring higher should impose a circumstance penalty to their checks. Chances are they'll believe it's some kind of black fire magic and the players should become panicked when they realize they're taking a negative level every round. That was the surprise round. He'll always use Invisible Spell with any spell that could have a visual effect.

1st round: Breath weapon on the whole party, which blows smoke across them if they're still in or near the entrance tunnel (describe the effect as smoke, the shadows won't be detectable within the darkness effect), Circlet of Rapid Casting Arcane Turmoil on anyone who was protected from the negative levels, or Extended Fell Drain Power Word: Pain on an obvious spellcaster, or Ray of Stupidity on anything with low (animal) intelligence or plan to hit a very dumb character twice with it, reposition.
2nd round: Drop another net of rocks and hay into a fire, two more spells: Extended Fell Drain Power Word: Pain and/or Arcane Turmoil and/or Ray of Stupidity, using the last charge of the Circlet of Rapid Casting.
3rd+ round: Put an Extended Power Word: Pain on every party member that can be affected by both mind-affecting abilities and negative levels. Arcane Turmoil anyone who protects themselves from negative levels. Use his breath attack to hit as many opponents at once as possible every time it's available. Try to position himself to be within 5 ft. of an injured/weakened opponent that separates himself from the rest of the party, then on the following round move adjacent and full attack. Fell Drain Sonic Snap is an automatic negative level from a 1st level spell slot.

If he's not sufficiently defeating them, if he's taking damage, or if he gets debuffed or if they're able to detect him, retreat to the ceiling and hide out of sight, then move into the second chamber. Continue casting spells, put another Invisible Wall of Smoke blocking their way when they realize what direction he went, and be ready to use his breath attack on as many as possible when they come through. If low on spells he should full attack as often as possible, preferring to target spellcasters or anyone who can hit him consistently. Remember that attacks against him have a 50% miss chance for total concealment when Shadow Blend is active.

If at any time he believes he cannot defeat the intruders, he should go hide and then Dimension Door to the third chamber, grab his tarp full of treasure, and Dimension Door outside the lair and fly away.

[jguy]

I have a custom built CR 15 Ancient White Dragon that was able to TPK a group of 4 level 11 optimized characters by himself. I feel like he would be up to the task for 5 CR 12. Will need to find his stats. FYI it was pathfinder based.

[WinWin]

The Flying, Acidic-Mucus-Strafing Crocodile.

Very Old Black Dragon, CR18 (Could drop an age category or 2, but I want 4th level spells slots for metabreath spells). 29hd

Abilities: Unchanged. Maxxed rank Stealth and Perception skills (Hide, Listen, etc).

Feats: Darkstalker, Entangling Exhalation, Clinging Breath, Lingering Breath, Flyby Attack, Flyby Breath, Strafing Breath, Tempest Breath, Improved Speed, Snatch.

Spells: Includes- Expeditious Retreat (1), Blinding Breath (3), Dispelling Breath (4), Stunning Breath (4).

Lair: Submerged/Aquatic. In a marsh, at the bottom of a muddy, debris and treasure filled sinkhole. Deep Water with limited visibility.

Tactics. Darkstalker in order to hide all the time, even when sleeping. Darkstalker should allow for flying stealth when combined with Tempest breath, allowing for strafing breath to provide a large field of concealment to isolate foes, or provide an opportunity for escape.

Prefers underwater or amphibious ambush. Dragon hunters can easily prepare Water Breathing and Freedom of Movement. Dispelling breath combined with metabreath feats ensures multiple opportunities to dispel these buffs and others. Take advantage of natural swim speed and blindsight. Snatch and grapple opponents isolated by Tempest Breath's push or knockdown, then drag them underwater to deal with them individually. Only enage multiple opponents when breath weapon is 'charged', otherwise flee and utilise Darkstalker to hide.

Escape, if possible, from persistant or prepared opponents. It will take a dedicated diving expedition in order to recover all your treasure from the bottom of the marsh. Plenty of time to attempt another ambush if the dragon hunters attempt to slowly revover your hoard. Otherwise, play it smart and find another remote lair. With any luck, you'll find a younger (and weaker) dragon that has carved out a nice territory for you.

[Angelalex242]

First thing to know about dragons:

For the love of Tiamat, your dragon's claws should never, ever touch the ground when facing the party. Not for any reason. No, not even that really good one you just thought of. If your dragon's claws touch the ground, you shall be beaten with the +5 greatclub cluebringer so far into subdual damage you shall not wake up till next week. Default tactic is fly in circles and breath weapon adventurers to death.

If your dragon does not have dispel magic (and greater dispel magic) to knock flying adventurers out of the sky, you shall again be beaten with Cluebringer.

Go from there.

[ArqArturo]

First thing to know about dragons:

For the love of Tiamat, your dragon's claws should never, ever touch the ground when facing the party. Not for any reason. No, not even that really good one you just thought of. If your dragon's claws touch the ground, you shall be beaten with the +5 greatclub cluebringer so far into subdual damage you shall not wake up till next week. Default tactic is fly in circles and breath weapon adventurers to death.

If your dragon does not have dispel magic (and greater dispel magic) to knock flying adventurers out of the sky, you shall again be beaten with Cluebringer.

Go from there.

Those words should be written in stone with the bones of slain CoDzillas. In my past PF game, the barbarian/alchemist character wrecked everything in its path... Until he met a flying blue dragon that could destroy potions. All of a sudden, no potions, no mutagen, and all dragon... Until he managed to put him on the ground. Then the party attacked like a bunch of angry Dire Weasels.

[me_maikey]

Very Old Loredrake Steel Dragon, advanced +2 HD, takes Epic Spellcasting at that level, CR14 with Point buy.

Stats - who cares? It's got epic spellcasting with 3 Epic Spells a day.

Epic skills work with ranks, not skill total. Does he have 30 ranks o_O?

[Dr. Cliché]

First thing to know about dragons:

For the love of Tiamat, your dragon's claws should never, ever touch the ground when facing the party. Not for any reason. No, not even that really good one you just thought of. If your dragon's claws touch the ground, you shall be beaten with the +5 greatclub cluebringer so far into subdual damage you shall not wake up till next week. Default tactic is fly in circles and breath weapon adventurers to death.

If your dragon does not have dispel magic (and greater dispel magic) to knock flying adventurers out of the sky, you shall again be beaten with Cluebringer.

Go from there.

:smallbiggrin:


Steel Dragon was going to be my go-to choice, but that's a bit unfair, and they're often good aligned or at least nonevil. Plus they're not the best choice to demonstrate how powerful dragons in general can be, since they have an unfair advantage in spellcasting.

I'll go with an Adult Shadow Dragon Mindbender 1 (CR 14). Having any class levels gives him the elite array for free, which is 25 pointbuy, I've given him five 12's and one 13, and a +1 for his 20th HD at his first class level. All true dragons get the default class skills plus three more specific to their color/type, but the Draconomicon has none listed for a Shadow Dragon, so Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently should be fitting. Since he has a class level, I'll give him a few signature items which count toward part of his horde, instead of a full set of gear for an NPC of his ECL.

Stat Block:
Dakastian: Male adult shadow dragon mindbender 1; CR 14;
Large dragon; HD 19d12+1d10+80, hp 214; Init +1; Spd 80 ft., fly
150 ft. (average); AC 31, touch 9, flat-footed 30; Base Atk +19;
Grp +29; Atk +24 melee (2d6+6, bite); Full Atk +24 melee (2d6+6,
bite), +22 melee (1d8+3, 2 claws), +22 melee (1d6+3, 2 wings),
+22 melee (1d8+9, tail slap); Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with
bite); SA breath weapon, spells, spell-like abilities; SQ blindsense
60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., immunity to energy drain, magic sleep
effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance 22, shadow
blend, DR 5/magic, telepathy 100 ft.; AL CE; SV Fort +17, Ref +12,
Will +19; Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 22.

Skills and Feats: Bluff +29, Concentration +27, Diplomacy +31,
Hide +19, Intimidate +31, Jump +26, Knowledge (arcana) +29,
Listen +28, Move Silently +23, Search +28, Sense Motive +29,
Spellcraft +31, Spot +28; Flaw: Vunlerable; Improved Flight, Fell
Drain Spell, Practical Metamagic: Fell Drain Spell, Multiattack,
Practiced Spellcaster, Invisible Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Mindsight.

Breath Weapon (Su): 40-ft. cone, 3 negative levels, Reflex DC 24
half. The saving throw to remove a negative level is also DC 24.

Spell-like abilities (Sp): 3/day mirror image; 2/day dimension door;
caster level 10th.

Frightful presence (Ex): 180 ft., DC 26.

Spells: As 6th-level sorcerer, caster level 10th, 6/8/7/4 per day.
Sorcerer Spells Known (7/4/2/1; save DC 16 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, create water, detect magic, ghost sound,
prestidigitation, sonic snap, stick; 1st—alarm, charm person,
power word: pain, wall of smoke; 2nd—arcane turmoil, ray of
stupidity; 3rd—deeper darkness.

Signature items: circlet of rapid casting, two lesser metamagic rods
of extend spell, Scroll of Resist Energy (caster level 7th).

Lair:
Each day he casts two Lesser Rod of Extended Invisible Deeper Darkness spells on small stones, and uses Stick to secure them to a surface to ensure his entire lair is completely covered in the effect. He always has forty such effects active at any given time, three he carries on his person, one adorning each wing and one worn around his neck, the other thirty-seven are spread throughout his lair. Invisible Deeper Darkness does not shed the normal shadowy illumination, it merely cancels natural light and magical light of a lower spell level. Creatures who cannot see the invisible spells can use darkvision in the area normally, but creatures who can see invisibility will be affected by the magical darkness normally.

Each deeper darkness effect cancels out one Daylight effect one-for-one and vise versa, so it takes at least as many overlapping Daylight effects as the number of Deeper Darkness effects present to allow natural light to prevail, and one more to actually affect an area with a Daylight spell. There will always be four or five Deeper Darkness effects present where he is, possibly two overlapping plus the three he carries with him. Thus he will always have total concealment due to his shadow blend ability. Note that any light outside the effect of one of these spells can still be seen by a creature within the spell's effect, the light just won't shine into the effect. He keeps many fires burning throughout his lair to easily detect whether his darkness effects are canceled, and to make the area hot and smoky.

Each day he casts Lesser Rod of Extended Alarm at the entrance to his lair, every fifth day he casts it twice due to its 20-hour duration. It's the version that silently alerts him to the presence of any creatures. He always casts his daily spells before resting to recover them, so he always has all of his spell slots available for most of the day when intruders would be expected. The tunnel leading into his lair has several pit traps, so intruders must proceed carefully and slowly. Near the ceiling of each chamber there are quite a few nets full of bales of dry grass and rocks the size of a man's head, each hanging over one of the fires he keeps burning. He typically releases these to create noise to mask the verbal components of his spells, which always results in an audible crackling of fire that cannot be seen due to the darkness effects.

The lair itself consists of three chambers, the first is quite deep, the entrance tunnel comes to a sheer cliff and the first chamber is 50 ft. below. On the opposite wall 150 ft. away, 100 ft. off the floor is the entrance to the second chamber, the floor of which is 50 ft. below the entrance. The third chamber is only accessible through a hole in the ceiling of the second chamber, 150 ft. off the floor. It's in this third chamber that he keeps his hoard and rests, and it has a wall that's thin enough that he can use Dimension Door to exit or enter the lair when necessary. There's a large black canvas spread across the floor, a sail taken from a pirate ship he plundered, which his hoard rests atop of. If he's facing defeat he'll Dimension Door to this chamber, grab the canvas and all his treasure in it, and Dimension Door outside the lair and simply fly away. He can use Dimension Door from the top of the first chamber or from within the second chamber to reach the third chamber.

Tactics:
Upon detecting intruders, he'll make his way to the first chamber, the pit traps should give him plenty of time. He'll position himself above the entrance, and use Mindsight and Darkvision to observe intruders. Note that his Shadow Blend ability makes it so nobody will ever have line of sight to him, so it's impossible to detect him using any type of vision. He casts Invisible Wall of Smoke filling the end of the entrance tunnel where it comes into the first chamber as they're making their way there, as soon as they're within range of his Mindsight. He'll use Telepathy to communicate with a weak-minded intruder, posing as a ghost of a child pleading for help and for them to hurry in. He'll tell the party about wicked pyromancer cultist ghosts that ambush from the walls, and the demons of fire and darkness wielding swords of black flames. His bluff check should be more than sufficient to distract the party and get them to spend spells to protect themselves from fire, and he makes sure to take note of how many intruders there are, who is casting what, and whose minds he cannot see due to immunity to mind-affecting abilities.

As though he's a frightened child, he exclaims to their minds that "Oh no, they're here!" as he drops a net of stones and hay into a fire and casts Lesser Rod of Extended Fell Drain Power Word: Pain on two known spellcasters (or anyone with a spell component pouch or divine focus) using the Circlet of Rapid Casting for one of those. He always speaks verbal components of spells in Ignan and into the largest part of the chamber so it echoes throughout, using bluff to throw his voice opposed by their listen checks, and the crashing of the rocks and the crackling of the fires flaring higher should impose a circumstance penalty to their checks. Chances are they'll believe it's some kind of black fire magic and the players should become panicked when they realize they're taking a negative level every round. That was the surprise round. He'll always use Invisible Spell with any spell that could have a visual effect.

1st round: Breath weapon on the whole party, which blows smoke across them if they're still in or near the entrance tunnel (describe the effect as smoke, the shadows won't be detectable within the darkness effect), Circlet of Rapid Casting Arcane Turmoil on anyone who was protected from the negative levels, or Extended Fell Drain Power Word: Pain on an obvious spellcaster, or Ray of Stupidity on anything with low (animal) intelligence or plan to hit a very dumb character twice with it, reposition.
2nd round: Drop another net of rocks and hay into a fire, two more spells: Extended Fell Drain Power Word: Pain and/or Arcane Turmoil and/or Ray of Stupidity, using the last charge of the Circlet of Rapid Casting.
3rd+ round: Put an Extended Power Word: Pain on every party member that can be affected by both mind-affecting abilities and negative levels. Arcane Turmoil anyone who protects themselves from negative levels. Use his breath attack to hit as many opponents at once as possible every time it's available. Try to position himself to be within 5 ft. of an injured/weakened opponent that separates himself from the rest of the party, then on the following round move adjacent and full attack. Fell Drain Sonic Snap is an automatic negative level from a 1st level spell slot.

If he's not sufficiently defeating them, if he's taking damage, or if he gets debuffed or if they're able to detect him, retreat to the ceiling and hide out of sight, then move into the second chamber. Continue casting spells, put another Invisible Wall of Smoke blocking their way when they realize what direction he went, and be ready to use his breath attack on as many as possible when they come through. If low on spells he should full attack as often as possible, preferring to target spellcasters or anyone who can hit him consistently. Remember that attacks against him have a 50% miss chance for total concealment when Shadow Blend is active.

If at any time he believes he cannot defeat the intruders, he should go hide and then Dimension Door to the third chamber, grab his tarp full of treasure, and Dimension Door outside the lair and fly away.

Can I steal this...?

[Vaz]

Epic skills work with ranks, not skill total. Does he have 30 ranks o_O?

He has the required caster Level as a dragon of that age with Loredrake providing the required +2 to cast 9ths. Epic Spellcasting requires an empty feat slot, next one is 30HD. Ranks at 30HD is 33. So yep.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've got a Black Dragon that I can post a little later. I've also got a nice shadow Dragon build, but it's similar enough to BF's to not bother posting.

[KorbeltheReader]

First thing to know about dragons:

For the love of Tiamat, your dragon's claws should never, ever touch the ground when facing the party. Not for any reason. No, not even that really good one you just thought of. If your dragon's claws touch the ground, you shall be beaten with the +5 greatclub cluebringer so far into subdual damage you shall not wake up till next week. Default tactic is fly in circles and breath weapon adventurers to death.

If your dragon does not have dispel magic (and greater dispel magic) to knock flying adventurers out of the sky, you shall again be beaten with Cluebringer.

Go from there.

Abso-friggin'-lutely. This is a major hobbyhorse of mine when it comes to dragons. People always "ooh" and "ah" at a dragon's damage dice, and I respond with: "a dragon that full attacks on the ground is a dragon that has already lost."

[SinsI]

White Dragonspawn Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold counts as a true dragon, right?
Basic level 14 sorcerer, +1 sorcerer level from the draconic rite of passage, as well as +2 sorcerer level from loredrake, +1 sorcerer level from White Dragonspawn.

He is a sorcerer that gets 9th level spells, so the party is doomed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

White Dragonspawn Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold counts as a true dragon, right?
Basic level 14 sorcerer, +1 sorcerer level from the draconic rite of passage, as well as +2 sorcerer level from loredrake, +1 sorcerer level from White Dragonspawn.

He is a sorcerer that gets 9th level spells, so the party is doomed.

Too bad it's impossible to put a Dragonspawn template on a Dragonwrought Kobold, since it cannot be applied to creatures of the dragon type and it's an acquired template so it has to be taken after your 1st character level. Dragonwrought can only be taken at 1st level, not even retrained to your 1st level feat because your character must be 1st level when taking it. Dragonwrought specifies that such kobolds are recognizable by the eggs they hatch from, so they have the dragon creature type before they even have any other game stats whatsoever. You cannot combine a Dragonspawn template with a Dragonwrought Kobold, ever.

[Vaz]

Abso-friggin'-lutely. This is a major hobbyhorse of mine when it comes to dragons. People always "ooh" and "ah" at a dragon's damage dice, and I respond with: "a dragon that full attacks on the ground is a dragon that has already lost."

True.

Full attacking, you can't really deal all that much damage compared to Baleful Transposition (carry a load of your chosen peons with Giantbane feat). These can be as powerful or as weak as you need them to be. Baleful Transposition them onto your body - they don't have the Giantbane feat, so have no ability to stay on. If you're a DM, just say unless he can make a climb check, with a "catching yourself while falling", modifier on I'd say a rough surface such as natural rock (the other options aren't as hard, and DC70 for a smooth surface is... impossible without optimizing that no character is ever going to attempt).

Or, try Quicken Baleful Transposition + Antimagic Ray. Teleport opponent up into your waiting arms. Let go. Splat. At 13th level, some characters would struggle to get enough HP to survive it - 20d6 falling damage is average 70 damage, maxing at 120. A 14 Consitution Wizard would barely survive average damage, while a BSF would be stripped to around 1/3rd.

Also, as said, White Dragonspawn doesn't work -

Dragonwrought - "You were born a dragonwrought kobold,"

Dragonspawn - "created by a hideous method that transforms humanoids into draconianlike creatures by fusing the mind and soul of the victim with the shard of a draconians..."

A Dragonwrought Kobold can NEVER be a Humanoid without Polymorph Shenanigans, which without a time duration given in the rules is quite hard to justify short of "DM says so".

[ArqArturo]

True.

Full attacking, you can't really deal all that much damage compared to Baleful Transposition (carry a load of your chosen peons with Giantbane feat). These can be as powerful or as weak as you need them to be. Baleful Transposition them onto your body - they don't have the Giantbane feat, so have no ability to stay on. If you're a DM, just say unless he can make a climb check, with a "catching yourself while falling", modifier on I'd say a rough surface such as natural rock (the other options aren't as hard, and DC70 for a smooth surface is... impossible without optimizing that no character is ever going to attempt).

They should be UMD-skilled minions with wands of Magic Missile and Cure Light Wounds, just so they have a double purpose.

[Rakaydos]

Something for the lower level partys...

Wyrmling Red Dragon with 2 levels of Swordsage, Flyby attack, Beast Strikes, and Snap Kick, with 1 other feat

On a flyby attack with out-of-book stats, he swings twice for 2d6+3, before flying away behind cover.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I guess I'll drag out this post I made in 2008 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?86672-Running-a-high-level-Dragon-encounter-3-5&p=4645537&viewfull=1#post4645537), since it's relevant to this discussion, as well as this more recent post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322346-Volcanic-mountain-cavern-style-dungeon-as-red-dragon-lair&p=16692454&viewfull=1#post16692454). Dragons aren't just personally dangerous, they've had centuries to adjust their lair to be just the way they want it to give them the greatest combat advantage when fighting on their own turf.

[WhamBamSam]

Something for the lower level partys...

Wyrmling Red Dragon with 2 levels of Swordsage, Flyby attack, Beast Strikes, and Snap Kick, with 1 other feat

On a flyby attack with out-of-book stats, he swings twice for 2d6+3, before flying away behind cover.Very Young Mercury Wyrmling Swordsage 2 has the same IL with 3 less CR. Its stats aren't as high, but it flies a lot faster with perfect maneuverability.

Though really, if you want to wreak a party with a dragon with maneuvers, you find a way to get Tornado Throw. If UMDing a pair of Setting Sun Sandals for IL (not maneuver prereqs) works, then a Very Old Mercury Dragon with Improved Flight, Improved Speed, Martial Study (Counter Charge), Martial Study (Baffling Defense), Martial Stance (Step of the Wind), Martial Study (Comet Throw), Martial Stance (Shifting Defense) can Tornado Throw with a 270ft perfect fly speed. If you make it a Wyrm of War, you can also fit things like Flyby Attack and Improved Trip.

I'm also fond of Setting Sun counters as a way of laughing off flying uberchargers or attempts to target touch AC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How about templates! I'll start with Multiheaded from Savage Species.

Five-headed Lernaean Young Adult Black Dragon, CR 13

Stat block:
Manianimos: Male five-headed lernaean young adult black
dragon; CR 13; Large dragon (water); HD 24d12+168, hp 324,
head hp 65; Init +4; Spd 60 ft., fly 150 ft. (average), swim 60
ft.; AC 28, touch 9, flat-footed 28; Base Atk +24; Grp +32;
Atk +27 melee (2d6+4, 5 bites); Full Atk +27/+22/+17/+12/+7
melee (2d6+4, 5 bites), +25 melee (1d8+2, 2 claws), +25
melee (1d6+2, 2 wings), +25 melee (1d8+6, tail slap);
Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite); SA breath weapon,
darkness, frightful presence, spells; SQ blindsense 60 ft.,
damage reduction 5/magic, darkvision 120 ft., immunity to
acid, magic sleep effects, and paralysis, low-light vision,
spell resistance 24, water breathing, fast healing 3, lernaean;
AL CE; SV Fort +21, Ref +14, Will +15; Str 19, Dex 10, Con 25,
Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12.

Skills and Feats: Bluff +9, Climb +20, Concentration +21,
Diplomacy +10, Hide +8, Intimidate +19, Listen +33, Move
Silently +20, Search +25, Spellcraft +5, Spot +33, Swim +28;
Recover Breath, Multiattack, Improved Flight, Rapidstrike: Bites,
Improved Rapidstrike: Bites, Awaken Spell Resistance, Improved
Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Practiced Spellcaster, Dire Charge*,
Fast Healing*.
*Epic feats.

Breath Weapon (Su): 80-ft. line, 10d4 acid per head,
Reflex DC 29 half. The time between breaths is 1d4-1 rounds.

Darkness (Sp): 3/day—as darkness, but 50-ft. radius. Caster
level 5th.

Frightful Presence (Ex): 150-ft. radius, HD 23 or fewer, Will DC
23 negates.

Spells: As 1st-level sorcerer, caster level 5th.
Sorcerer Spells Known (5/4; save DC 11 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, detect magic, electric jolt, prestidigitation;
1st—chill touch, mage armor.

Lernaean: Lernaean creatures have bodies that are immune
to attack (but see below). The only way to slay a Lernaean
creature is to sever all its heads. To sever a head, an opponent
must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon.
(The player should declare where the attack is aimed before
making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an
attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder
feat. An opponent can strike at the creature's heads from any
position in which he could strike at the creature's body, because
the creature's heads writhe and whip about in combat. An
opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a head when
the creature bites at him. Each of its heads has hit points equal
to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original
number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal
to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the
neck shut to prevent further blood loss. The creature can no
longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties.

Each time a head is severed, two new heads spring from the stump
in 1d4 rounds. It can never have more than twice its original number
of heads at any one time, and any extra heads it gains beyond its
original number wither and die within a day. To prevent a severed
head from growing back into two heads, at least 5 points of fire
damage must be dealt to the stump (AC 19) before the new heads
appear. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage
to the stump in the same blow in which a head is severed. Fire
damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps. The creature
does not die from losing its heads until all its heads have been cut
off and the stumps seared by fire.

Spells such as disintegrate, finger of death, and slay living can kill
a Lernaean creature if they succeed. If the spell deals damage on
a successful save, that damage is directed against one of the
creature’s heads.

Lair:
His underwater lair is in the middle of a swamp, its flooded entrances concealed by murky pools indistinguishable from any of the other murky pools nearby. He has dug out quite a number of pits in the swamp around each entrance to his lair, which have subsequently flooded with murky water, so anyone seeking to enter his lair will be forced to explore a dozen or more decoys and anyone who stumbles upon an entrance to his lair won't think it any different from any of the other pits nearby.

The two underwater tunnels that lead into his lair are each guarded by one of his six-headed hydra concubines (he only likes the ones with six heads for some reason). Each of them has the feats Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch, and they're fond of hiding in an alcove in the murky water until intruders swim past, then they take a six-bite AoO against each of multiple foes and a six-bite attack in the surprise round, grabbing as many as possible. Once an opponent is grabbed any attacks made with that head are against the opponent it's holding.

Both entrance tunnels go down about 100 ft. from the surface, then horizontally about another 100 ft., then up about 60 ft. into the main chamber which is beneath a hollow hill. The main chamber of his lair is quite large and only flooded to a depth of eight feet, making it impossible for a medium or smaller intruder to walk normally. He'll typically be crawling on the ceiling of his lair, ready to breathe acid down whichever entrance tunnel they emerge from while they're all lined up, then swoop down in a diving charge at the first opponent he sees.

Tactics:
He uses a surprise round to immediately attacks any unexpected intruders that made it past a hydra concubine, taking advantage of the long, narrow entrance tunnels to breathe acid on all of them at once. He follows that up with a dive attack (updated) (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1), which counts as a charge as long as he moves at least 30 ft. and descends at least 10 ft. but he can only make claw and bite attacks (piercing weapons). His Dire Charge feat allows him to full attack with this, making all of his bite and claw attacks, all of which deal double damage. He tries to use his body to block opponents in the entrance tunnel so only a few of them can strike at him at once, confident that they won't be able to sear any severed heads when underwater. He'll use his breath attack as often as possible, but otherwise he'll full attack every round and even pursue the intruders if they try to flee.

If he thinks they may be able to defeat him (if they successfully sever and sear even a single head), he'll fly to the ceiling at the center of the room and destroy a support, then quickly make his way to the opposite tunnel to make his escape while the roof comes down and buries his hoard under tons of rocks and mud. He'll return later to retrieve his wealth after his Fast Healing has fixed the stump and his head has regrown, carefully scouting first to be sure the pesky adventurers have moved on.

[SinsI]

Too bad it's impossible to put a Dragonspawn template on a Dragonwrought Kobold, since it cannot be applied to creatures of the dragon type and it's an acquired template so it has to be taken after your 1st character level.You cannot combine a Dragonspawn template with a Dragonwrought Kobold, ever.

What's the problem? At 16th sorcerer level he gets 8th level spells, and Polymorh Any Object is an absolute no-brainer for any sorcerer.

[ArqArturo]

I'm also thinking (as a last-ditch effort) that if the dragon were to somehow die (???), a Contingency Summon Monster (a bunch of rust monsters) would appear in the alcoves of the dragon's treasure hoard.

I know that's too evil, but let's face it, if an evil dragon can't have his or her treasure, no one else should.

[Rakaydos]

Very Young Mercury Wyrmling Swordsage 2 has the same IL with 3 less CR. Its stats aren't as high, but it flies a lot faster with perfect maneuverability.

Though really, if you want to wreak a party with a dragon with maneuvers, you find a way to get Tornado Throw. If UMDing a pair of Setting Sun Sandals for IL (not maneuver prereqs) works, then a Very Old Mercury Dragon with Improved Flight, Improved Speed, Martial Study (Counter Charge), Martial Study (Baffling Defense), Martial Stance (Step of the Wind), Martial Study (Comet Throw), Martial Stance (Shifting Defense) can Tornado Throw with a 270ft perfect fly speed. If you make it a Wyrm of War, you can also fit things like Flyby Attack and Improved Trip.

I'm also fond of Setting Sun counters as a way of laughing off flying uberchargers or attempts to target touch AC.

Yea, I enjoy setting sun and diamond mind on dragons too. But then, I didnt specify what the maneuvers the red would have, only that he's get USS proficencies and AC bonus, with a few feats that work very well with him.

[Silva Stormrage]

I'm also thinking (as a last-ditch effort) that if the dragon were to somehow die (???), a Contingency Summon Monster (a bunch of rust monsters) would appear in the alcoves of the dragon's treasure hoard.

I know that's too evil, but let's face it, if an evil dragon can't have his or her treasure, no one else should.

I think if the party could kill the dragon they can handle some rust monsters. Also wouldn't that contingency be better used to resurrect the dragon? Or teleport his corpse away THEN resurrect him?

[Vaz]

It's not for the purposes of beating the party, but to destroy the treasure. Sure, you've killed a dragon, but you have nothing to show for it.

[ArqArturo]

It's not for the purposes of beating the party, but to destroy the treasure. Sure, you've killed a dragon, but you have nothing to show for it.

You could also set a message triggered by any humanoid that approaches that rubs them on it.

Of course, that could translate to the players throwing dice at you.

[Rakaydos]

You could also set a message triggered by any humanoid that approaches that rubs them on it.

Of course, that could translate to the players throwing dice at you.

Now im wondering if you could print exploding runes on every coin, and usethem as an arena hazard

[ArqArturo]

Now im wondering if you could print exploding runes on every coin, and usethem as an arena hazard

As a player and as a DM, that can only spell disaster, as a crafty party could grab those coins as proximity mines.

[Vaz]

Just have them go through an area dispel "wash" at a Caster Level purposefully designed to fail. Said explosion triggers. Or perhaps have them trigger whenever they are taken out of the area of a particular immoveable magic item - such as by being put in a Bag of Holding and capable of destroying whatever's in there.

[Hecuba]

A couple questions: is my dragon using standard racial stats, or rolling/generating as a PC?
Does it have standard ecl 12 Wbl, or triple standard treasure for a CR 12 encounter?


First thing to know about dragons:

For the love of Tiamat, your dragon's claws should never, ever touch the ground when facing the party. Not for any reason. No, not even that really good one you just thought of. If your dragon's claws touch the ground, you shall be beaten with the +5 greatclub cluebringer so far into subdual damage you shall not wake up till next week. Default tactic is fly in circles and breath weapon adventurers to death.

If your dragon does not have dispel magic (and greater dispel magic) to knock flying adventurers out of the sky, you shall again be beaten with Cluebringer.

Go from there.

Don't be silly: if your dragon has a burrow speed then of course you shoulsd touch the ground- since you should be inside the ground. The party has far more limited options for attacking while you are in the ground than while you are flying over it.