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Grytorm
2014-05-13, 02:21 PM
I recently have had my head worried at by Dwarves. I had a bunch of cool ideas one after another related to them. It started with a core idea of a patron deity for them and then just looking for bits going away from that core idea leading to enough ideas for dwarven politics to have campaigns about them beyond the stereotype while still keeping the stereotype. The idea I had was the Dwarves being human slave miners transformed into what they become with multiple ideas springing of of that.

Have you ever had an idea for a classic D&D race that explains why they are the stereotype? I think that the core idea can be very useful for defining and expanding a race beyond a simple idea. How would you explore Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, Halflings and Goblins in one world with many aspects to them?

Slipperychicken
2014-05-13, 02:58 PM
Maybe dwarves need lots of alcohol to deal with some chemical in the cave fungus which they eat?

Grey Watcher
2014-05-13, 03:21 PM
A while back, I attempted to draw up a homebrew setting. I basically wrote into the history that, centuries prior, there had been an actual, functioning Empire run by Orcs. A few insane Emperors and succession crises, and the whole thing collapses, but not before one of those Emperors sends a sizeable chunk of the army into the northern wastes to go fight dragons. When they lose the support from the south, but can't go back because humans, elves, and the like took over quickly. So, the soldiers learn to live in their current environment and become what most D&D players expect Orcs to be: brutal warriors who survive their harsh environment by raiding and violence.

Altair_the_Vexed
2014-05-13, 04:04 PM
My take on the bragging, acquisitive stereotype for dwarves is that those are the males, and they're looking for ways to be impressive enough to court a female. Female dwarves are rare in my setting, so only the most impressive dwarfmen are in with a chance of getting married.

So when a dwarf shows you his best axe and tells you all about his wealth and great lineage - he's actually flirting.

Airk
2014-05-13, 04:11 PM
I really liked the Burning Wheel takes on the three non-human fantasy races they did.

Dwarves were defined by Greed; It's a fundamental part of their character, and their culture has evolved to combat it by rigorous use of Oaths.
Elves are defined by Grief; It just HAPPENS as a result of watching everything get old and die around you (BW Elves are basically Tolkien Elves. They live forever unless killed). They struggle against this through the use of Song.
Orcs are...well, orcs are filled with with Hatred. They don't really manage this, particularly. :P

Yora
2014-05-13, 04:14 PM
In my Sword & Sorcery setting, lizardfolk are the most numerous race, with one of their cultures being the most advanced. They were originally enslaved by naga to be workers and footsoldiers, but when the naga got weaker, their shamans created a church of the Sun, which started a rebellion. There are now the former slaves on the mainland, who took over the whole agriculture and weapon industry, the free tribes that live mostly on the islands as "classic" lizardfolk (but with a much richer and colorful culture), and those who are still slaves to the remaining naga cities.

TeChameleon
2014-05-13, 08:29 PM
Well, in one setting that I wrote, the things that look suspiciously like elves, right down to a fondness for building everything out of 'trees and glitter', to borrow a dwarven phrase... are actually the descendants of Awakened parasitic plants that gained sentience accidentally when they grew on (and fed off) powerfully magical dryad trees. Fast forward a few millennia, and you've got what, at first glance, looks like a rather unpleasant variant of a typical wood-elven magical empire, with them tending the trees, murdering intruders who are 'not of the woods', and living long, apparently nature-contemplating lives. Then you tilt your head a little, the view falls into place, and they're acting just like an invasive species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species). It's actually a bit scary how much some variants of wood elves in fiction act like that >.>

Dwarves in that setting, on the other hand, are still short, heavily built, heavily bearded, and heavily armoured subterranean-dwellers who look rather similar, appear to all be male, have a passionate love for mining and a passionate hatred for goblins. Pretty much typical, until you hit the point where they're actually golems animated by individual members of an energy-being groupmind, the beards are heat sinks, mining is to find materials for replacement parts and new bodies, and the hatred for goblins stems from the fact that the best minerals to grow fresh dwarf-minds in contain nutrients vital for the lithovoric goblins.

The Oni
2014-05-14, 06:20 AM
In my setting, the elves aren't especially vain or arrogant - anymore, because all the Elves that are still elves got run out of their homes when the rest of them transformed into Hulder, and now they're social outcasts at best, potential monsters at worst. Hulder are basically elves with their racial arrogance, charisma, and in-tune-ness with nature turned up to eleven, and they figure they're basically the pinnacle of humanoid evolution. It is then their gods-given responsibility to dominate all lesser races, since anything else would be evolutionarily irresponsible.

There are two kinds of dwarves; one that live in skycities and are very even-tempered, diplomatic, artsy, with the head for gold and city planning. The other lives underground and is more hardy, stalwart, religious, and the type to show you their best axe the first chance they get and/or drink you under the table.

Orcs are implied to be an offshoot of humanity, and basically their massive mental penalties and strength bonus is more of a cultural than a racial thing; anyone who couldn't survive in a brutal, cutthroat environment full of toxins and cannibals was weeded out pretty quick. They're pretty much all marauding *******s, except for the ones who follow an alien god who sympathizes with their twisted appearance and wants to redeem and uplift them.

Halflings are another (very ancient) offshoot of humanity who never left the tall grasses and hillside dwellings full of giant-ass predators, so their small size was a survival tactic and they never got especially large. Eventually they learned to tame the beasts for their own purposes.

Gnomes don't exist by default in my setting; this is specifically because, being half-fey, most of them find the planet (which is actually a living nature hivemind demigoddess) to be very strange, and just being there gives them a sense of horrible vertigo and nausea. There are a handful of powerful gnome adventurers (who can make the necessary Fort saves and not feel horribly ill) but they're always mistaken for high-tier outsiders or funny-looking halflings, and no one knows much about their culture.

Jay R
2014-05-14, 12:22 PM
In my current game, the players were told from the start that there are no dwarves or elves.

The truth is that they know nothing about them.

The elves, when they show up, will be the elves for Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies.

Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvelous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
Nobody said elves were nice.
Elves are bad.

The dwarves are all enslaved by the giants in the north. One aspect I've added to dwarves in my world is that they will work if there is work in front of them. A dwarf at a forge cannot stop himself from creating.

That's why they make such good slaves.

Finally, I've re-written goblins. My goblins are still somewhat bestial and instinctual. They will fight well when there is a strong leader, but will always flee if the leader is killed. Also, goblin wolf-riders hunt like a wolf-pack, cutting a single victim out of the crowd and running away with it, rather than facing the group head-on. That's because the leader is the alpha wolf, not the goblin on his back.

lunar2
2014-05-14, 10:09 PM
in the setting I'm working on, there are 6 humanoid races, broke up into 4 species.

originally, there were big humans and little humans. little humans evolved in dense forests with lots of low hanging branches, so getting tall was never a good idea. big humans evolved on the plains, where height meant a better vantage point for spotting prey and competition, so they got tall.

when little humans branched out, they split into 3 cultures, that each went on their own path of divergent evolution.

group 1 (dwarves) moved to the mountains, and learned to mine from the dragons, using their small size and opposable thumbs to gather and craft resources for themselves and the dragons, in exchange for protection. they eventually got a bit taller, and a lot bulkier, developing a musculature that allows them to clear dirt quickly (0 ft. burrow speed, can burrow 5 ft. as a full round action, with another full round action to stabilize the tunnel) and work tirelessly (double effect of craft and profession checks from not needing breaks). they can work all day (+2 con), but their huge build makes them musclebound (-2 dex). they move slowly (20 ft.), but can carry heavy loads without penalty. also, +2 to all craft and profession checks.

group 2 (goblins) moved to the arctic, where they were enslaved by the winter wolves. they trained regular wolves to serve their cold-hearted brethren, and survived by being likable. in the end, they developed considerable skill in training and riding animals (+4 handle animal, +4 ride), and developed an extraordinary likability (empathy (ex): as wild empathy, but works on all creatures with an intelligence score, and is based on HD, not class level. 5 ranks in diplomacy gives +2 synergy bonus to empathy, and level 5 goblins get +2 synergy bonus to diplomacy). they maintain the quickness (+2 dex) and the frailty (-2 str) of their small size. move speed 20 ft.

group 3 (quicklings) developed a love of sports and athleticism, especially feats of speed. they are extremely fast for their size (40 ft. move speed), are naturally coordinated in their movements (+2 balance, climb, jump, swim, and tumble), and can strike preternaturally fast (flurry: whenever you make an attack, you can spend an immediate action to take a -2 penalty to that attack, and gain an extra attack at the same bonus). they are agile, but their focus on explosive feats leave their endurance lacking (+2 dex, -2 con).

little humans have evolved their separate ways so long ago that they can no longer interbreed.

the big humans remained one race until a little over 5,600 years ago, when about 10,000 of them suddenly vanished, kidnapped by the greater fey for experiments into the nature of draconic magic (spontaneous arcane casting).

this set off a war between two empires, the Janel and the Devora, that would last for centuries. these two empires both hired the fey to mutate their citizens to better fight, greatly extending their capabilities and their lifespan, but at the cost of their humanity. after about 600 years, they had reached a point where their destructive capacity threatened the planet itself, so they moved to the other two planets of the system, Musiley and Shade, where over time they evolved into the modern angels and devils. every 500 years, when the planets align and it is safe to cross the void, they send troops to Thera (the main planet of the setting) and continue to fight each other, devastating the people of Thera in the process, effectively hitting the reset button on society.

a thousand years after they disappeared, the descendants of the kidnapped humans were released, but had been bred into 2 new races as a result of the (failed) experiment.

the elves showed no draconic traits, and had no draconic DNA, but could, to a man, learn to use draconic magic with greater power than any other humanoid race (+1 caster level on caster checks), and shared a version of the dragon's greed, but for knowledge (+2 to all knowledges, knowledge always a class skill, and always considered trained). they had also inherited a long lifespan (average 200 years, the only race with a nonhuman lifespan) and great intellect, but their reliance on magic caused their muscles to degrade (+2 int, -2 str).

the orcs inherited a significant amount of draconic DNA, blessing them with enhanced muscles (+4 str) and senses (+2 spot, listen, and survival. scent and low light vision). however, they have absolutely no talent for magic (no orc can take levels in classes that grant casting), and they have reverted to a more primitive nature (-2 int, -2 cha).

the remaining humans are, of course, humans as in the PHB.

the 3 big human races are able to interbreed, but rarely do. orcs find mates as much through scent as through sight. humans and elves just don't smell right. elves are attracted to knowledge and magic, which neither humans nor orcs can match them in. and humans find both the frail, gaunt elves, and the brutish, muscular orcs to be ugly.

any hybrid that is born gets the full racial traits of both parent races (orc/elf hybrids can use magic, unlike orcs, although they aren't particularly good at it, since they have a cha penalty), as well as a single LA.

then there are the more recent appearances, such as the giants and giant kin, which are also bred by the fey from human stock. i still need to brew them, since i don't plan on using the MM giant varieties, preferring to have a singular race of "giant" with troll, ettin, and athach offshoots. don't think I'll use ogres, though.

and of course, kobolds, lizardfolk, gnomes, and other humanoid races just don't exist.

GungHo
2014-05-15, 08:29 AM
imc, gnomes are defined by their plastic genes. That is, the specific subrace of gnome they grow up as depends primarily on their environment.

I was actually hoping you were going to say they were made of plastic.

Slipperychicken
2014-05-15, 09:25 AM
I was actually hoping you were going to say they were made of plastic.

Most of the gnomes I've encountered seem to be made of ceramics.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-05-15, 09:51 AM
I really liked the Burning Wheel takes on the three non-human fantasy races they did.

Dwarves were defined by Greed; It's a fundamental part of their character, and their culture has evolved to combat it by rigorous use of Oaths.
Elves are defined by Grief; It just HAPPENS as a result of watching everything get old and die around you (BW Elves are basically Tolkien Elves. They live forever unless killed). They struggle against this through the use of Song.
Orcs are...well, orcs are filled with with Hatred. They don't really manage this, particularly. :P
What I like about the Burning Wheel take is that it still allows for massive amounts of cultural and individual variation amongst the members of a stock. I think that's missing from a lot of treatments of demihumans. Because, really, there is no such thing as a monoculture.

(Okay, sure, you could have a monoculture as a unique sort of thing, but it starts to get silly if every demihuman gets the Planet of Hats treatment. Not only are all dwarves, elves, etc. different from one another, but they'll group up into different communities. Think of how many ethnicities and cultures humans have. Why should demihumans be much different?)

Fouredged Sword
2014-05-15, 10:32 AM
I, at one point, built a whole setting based very loosely on the judeo-christian mythology. One of the main points of it was to explain WHY all the fantasy races acted the way they did.

Interesting things about the setting. Souls gave a creature free will. Without a soul, a creature couldn't gain exp, change itself in any fundamental manner, and are slaves to their nature. Humans are the only race that ALL have souls. Orcs and Goblins where created by the dark forces, and elves and dwarves where created by the light forces. Only 20-30% of them have souls at the point the story started, and that left a TON of RHD humanoid monsters running around. The goblin tribe you fight for raiding a village is likely just following the commands left over from the last great war.

Elves where truly immortal (non died of old age yet, the world was only 500 years old). Every elf knows how to wield a bow because that is the reason they where created. They only have freedom because the humans forced the accord of powers, granting souls to all non-humans in the middlelands (the land the war actually happened in). They still struggle with their built in animosity to orcs and goblins, and the fact that they are born to fight them.

Dwarves of the setting are my favorites though. I found a great way to mix the stotic warrior with the wild party image dwarves have. I made them all psionic. They are not considered full adults until they can manifest Sustenance each day. A dwarven stronghold literally needs no food or water except to raise children. For a dwarf there are two kinds of food. There is food for children, filling bland things that can be grown on the underside of mountains, and food for adults, food eaten purely for the joy of eating. Dwarves consider eating an activity that only happens at celebrations, so when they mix with humans two things happen. A, they tend to think of all other races as children. They have to eat, so they don't think of them as adults. Even if they mentally know better, it shades their thoughts. B, they tend to treat every meal they are invited to like a party, drinking to excess, eating until you are stuffed, and living like there is no tomorrow. That is what you DO at a dwarven meal.

Jay R
2014-05-15, 11:06 AM
Because, really, there is no such thing as a monoculture.

While that's true, there are such things as stereotypes, and they have some degree of truth in them. For instance, most Texans don't fit the stereotype, but when I'm among non-Texans, I feel some degree of responsibility to uphold the legend.

Also, a different culture is not a mono-culture, but the areas in which it is most different from mine tend to look similar from my point of view. I know all New Yorkers aren't the same, but there is still a general idea of "New Yorker" that in a general way, has some real meaning. The difference between the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn may have real meaning to people from that area, but I don't know what it is.

The result is that while no culture is monolithic, there appears to be a general feel to a culture, which is over-emphasized by most people from outside.

Consider the following:
Egypt.
Russia.
the Balkans.
India.
the Australian outback.
Ireland.
Sweden.
Polynesia.
Guatemala.
Japan.
New Orleans.
Athens.
Jerusalem.
Rio.
the Riviera.
Turkey.
Paris.
Budapest.
Venice.
Singapore.

None of them are monolithic cultures, but all of them have a general feel to outsiders - which gets stronger the less you know about them. This feel is the basic idea humans have of elves, dwarves, etc. Just remember that besides having a general overall culture, there will be lots of versions of it, and lots of exceptions.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-05-15, 11:53 AM
Consider the following:
Egypt.
Russia.
the Balkans.
India.
the Australian outback.
Ireland.
Sweden.
Polynesia.
Guatemala.
Japan.
New Orleans.
Athens.
Jerusalem.
Rio.
the Riviera.
Turkey.
Paris.
Budapest.
Venice.
Singapore.

None of them are monolithic cultures, but all of them have a general feel to outsiders - which gets stronger the less you know about them. This feel is the basic idea humans have of elves, dwarves, etc. Just remember that besides having a general overall culture, there will be lots of versions of it, and lots of exceptions.
Right, but my point is...demihumans frequently seem to have a single "culture" which spans their entire stock.

If it were the same for humans, we'd have, for instance, a "Turkey" culture for humans. For everyone on the planet. Or maybe we'd have a Europe culture, an America culture, an Africa culture, and an Asia culture. Even that would be four different cultures to encompass humanity, which is more than demihumans generally get. (I think that elves are generally the only exception: high elves, wood elves, sun and moon elves, dark elves, probably a few other varieties I haven't thought of yet. :smallbiggrin: But kobolds, dwarves, halflings...aren't they all usually from the same culture in most settings?)

And I get the viewpoint that "to the humans, all dwarves seem the same" or whatnot, but that doesn't make as much sense in games where it's equal-opportunity for playing any stock of character. It doesn't make much sense to have a human-centric view of demihuman culture, when the game isn't premised as a human-centric game.

Jay R
2014-05-15, 10:26 PM
Right, but my point is...demihumans frequently seem to have a single "culture" which spans their entire stock.

I can't imagine how any player character would know that. You only deal with the ones on the same continent, and usually only the ones in a single area.


If it were the same for humans, we'd have, for instance, a "Turkey" culture for humans. For everyone on the planet.

If you only people humans from Turkey, that would be your experience


And I get the viewpoint that "to the humans, all dwarves seem the same" or whatnot, but that doesn't make as much sense in games where it's equal-opportunity for playing any stock of character.

Than invent a dwarven PC from a tribe of dwarves that have no mines, or an elf from the Sahara. You're in charge of what your PC is like. I recently ran a pair of dwarves who were wanderers. They were Felix and Doli, and had left their homeland after their five brothers were slain. (You needed to think in two different languages to recognize those names as Happy and Grumpy.)

In the game I played most recently, the elves and dwarves were dispersed due to some previous war, and don't necessarily know what they are. My character was picked on as a "pointy-ear" as he was growing up in the orphanage, and didn't learn what an elf was, or that he was one, until 6th level.

The elves and dwarves in the game I'm currently running are very different from normal elves and dwarves, and the PCs will only meet elves from a single specific culture, and will only meet dwarves who have been enslaved for the last few generations.

The game does not require all cultures to be the same; people just do it - or don't.


It doesn't make much sense to have a human-centric view of demihuman culture, when the game isn't premised as a human-centric game.

Yeah, but every player is a human-centric player.

Besides, many D&D games have a single, monolithic human culture, too.