3.5 Warblade build and suggestions

[kaine22]

Hello all, long time lurker first time posting.

I'm currently in a 3.5 edition game playing a level 3 human warblade starting from level 1. I've read many threads on the subject and just wanted to get everyone's opinion on my planned build. I'll post my current setup and how I plan to continue. Feel free to suggest changes.

Level 3 Human Warblade using Guisarme and spiked gauntlet

Stats:
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10

Lvl 1: (Two flaws taken)
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Lvl 3:
Knockdown


Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Steel Wind
Moment of Perfect Mind
Leading the Attack
Emerald Razor

Current Stance: Punishing Stance

My plan now is to take a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian at 4th then take the rest of my levels in Warblade.

6th: Shock Trooper/Combat Reflexes (Bonus)
9th: Leap Attack
10th: Endurance (Bonus)
12th: Rolibar's Gambit
14th: Iron Heart (Bonus)
15th: Stormguard Warrior
18th: Defensive Sweep/Improved Initiative (Bonus)

5th: Sapphire Nightmare Blade ==> Mountain Hammer
6th: White Raven Tactics
7th: Steel Wind ==> Iron Heart Surge
8th: Ruby Nightmare Blade
9th: Leading the Attack ==> Wall of Blades
10th: Iron Heart Focus
12th: Greater Insightful Strike
14th: Finishing Move
16th: Adamantine Hurricane
17th: Ruby Nightmare Blade ==> Diamond Nightmare Blade
18th: Time Stands Still
19th: Finishing Move ==> Strike of Perfect Clarity
20th: Mountain Tombstone Strike

5th: Tactics of the Wolf
11th: Dancing Blade Form
17th: Stance of Alacrity or Supreme Blade Parry

Generally I'm just maxing out the following skills
Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Local), and Tumble

The other members of my party consist of:
Social Changling Rogue/Beguiler eventual gish
Dwarf Cleric that wants to specialize in summoning
Halfling Warlock
Changling druid (new player)
Elf druid (not new but inexperienced player)

Sorry for the long post but warblades do have a lot to cover. I do believe I have the maneuver and stance prereqs down but let me know if I don't.

[Shining Wrath]

I like your build.

I'm not sure the barbarian dip is worth it - delays Initiator Level, and your Wolf Pack Tactics bonus is equal to half of that. Plus there's the Pouncing Charge maneuver from Tiger Claw, although you'd have to rework your build a lot to qualify. I know everyone always wants every melee fighter to take Spirit Lion, which is part of why I don't want to see you take it, because I'm ornery that way :smallsmile:

EDIT: you are doing a battle field control / tripping build, but with a summoning cleric (BTW, malconvoker with a one-level dip in Conjurer variant from UA = WIN), the need for that may drop. If the cleric has minions, and the druid has minions, the enemy is going to find their freedom of movement pretty well constrained before you trip anything. Maybe go with a spiked chain disarming build?

[Klarth]

If you're dipping Barbarian, go Wolf totem Barbarian 2. This gets you Imp Trip without needing combat expertise, and when you take Warblade 4, you will have an IL of 5, allowing you to take a level 3 stance with your second stance.

[John Longarrow]

If you are up for it, you may want a one level dip into DragonSlayer at 6th. Check Draconomicon. Big reason is it makes you immune to fear.

[Adverb]

I wouldn't take Emerald Razor or Finishing Move. The former can be gotten with a magic item, the latter is bonus damage exactly when you don't need it. I'm a pretty big fan of Swooping Dragon Strike, unless you think you can't hack the Jump check.

[kaine22]

Thanks for the replies.

@Shining Wrath: Thanks! A total rework into the Tiger Claw Discipline would take a lot to do to be able to get the Pouncing Charge maneuver, I like the maneuver it's just I don't think Tiger Claw fits with what I'm building too well. The tripping portion of my build is because all the summoners aren't very experienced players so they may or may not be good at it, I'll have to see as the game progresses.

@Klarth: That wouldn't be a bad idea but we've already played a few games and I've had improved trip since 1st level.

@John Longarrow: Are there any other ways to get fear immunity without another level dip? Just asking because I'd lose out on a maneuver known and I rather like Mountain Tombstone Strike.

@Adverb: Do you have any suggestions for a replacement for Emerald Razor? I'm not adverse to switching it out at a later point if there is something in Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, or White Raven that would be a better replacement. Same with Finishing Move, which I am replacing anyways with Strike of Perfect Clarity. Again, switching to a Tiger Claw focus doesn't seem to fit as well with my build.

[Adverb]

@Adverb: Do you have any suggestions for a replacement for Emerald Razor? I'm not adverse to switching it out at a later point if there is something in Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, or White Raven that would be a better replacement. Same with Finishing Move, which I am replacing anyways with Strike of Perfect Clarity. Again, switching to a Tiger Claw focus doesn't seem to fit as well with my build.

I'd take Wall of Blades over Emerald Razor any day. In your current plan, that opens up a level 4 maneuver, which has good options. White Raven Strike is no-save, and both of the Iron Heart options are sweet.

As to what to do with your spare L7 maneuver... well, you've already taken a level in Barbarian. Somewhere prior to CL14, take a single level of Swordsage. Take:
Mind over Body
Wolf Fang Strike
Sudden Leap
[any TC maneuver, you will never ready it ever]
Bonecrusher
[any SD maneuver, you will never ready it ever]
...and any stance of your choice.

Then, at Wrb 12/13 (CL14/15 for you) you have the prereqs necessary to swap Mountain Hammer for its Ancient cousin, AND take Swooping Dragon Strike. Also, you can keep Mind over Body readied in a Swordsage slot forever, which is a nice side bennie.

One option is to take Hunter's Sense instead of the last TC maneuver, which opens you up to take something Swordsage-unique like Shadow Jaunt (which is probably trumped by magic items you can afford then) or Counter Charge (which can save your life). Or take the SwSa level at CL9, take one less TC maneuver, and take Pouncing Charge on top of everything else. Also, for 15k you can later buy a Crown of White Ravens style item to put a L4-L6 maneuver into one of your Swordsage slots, though I'm not sure any options are worth it.

If you don't do that (because you find it cheesy to qualify for prereqs that way, or because you want to go dipless for Wrb 20), then, uh... well, Avalanche of Blades and Stormguard Warrior go really well together? Manticore Parry is an excellent candidate if you end up fighting a lot of armed opponents, but it's useless against claws and spells and is less useful when you're in Robilar mode. Rapid Counter if you want to go whole-hog on being an AoO machine.

[John Longarrow]

@John Longarrow: Are there any other ways to get fear immunity without another level dip? Just asking because I'd lose out on a maneuver known and I rather like Mountain Tombstone Strike.

There are, but I can't remember one that also gives you full BAB/good HPs that isn't overly expensive at lower levels. I've found it about the best way to get immune to fear before 10th that doesn't hurt most builds.

You'll still get your maneuver, its just pushed back a level.

[Feint's End]

If you're dipping Barbarian, go Wolf totem Barbarian 2. This gets you Imp Trip without needing combat expertise, and when you take Warblade 4, you will have an IL of 5, allowing you to take a level 3 stance with your second stance.

Why not take it a step further? If you are starting third level you'll have some room to play around with.
Start with 2 levels of Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian and go straight warblade afterwards. It is much smarter to go out of initiator classes for two levels anyways.

Your feats then should probably look like this:
Lvl 1:
Combat Expertise
Extra Rage
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Lvl 2:
Improved Trip (Bonus)
Lvl 3:
Knockdown


You'll have slower progression for one level compared to your other build but some nice synergys and you'll get much more out of Barbarian than just with a 1 level dip. 3 times per day rage which lets you attack one extra time? Yes please! And after rage you ask? IHS to remove fatigue and you are good to go.


edit: you could also start of with warblade and take two levels of barbarian afterwards but it doesn't really matter. Since you start at level three the smaller changes are pretty meaningless and it all comes down to backstory and which skilllist you prefer then. I'd say the barbarian first makes probably more sense -> wild but talented warrior turned swordsmaster.

[Darrin]

There are, but I can't remember one that also gives you full BAB/good HPs that isn't overly expensive at lower levels.

There's a regional feat in PGtF called Fearless that gives immunity to fear. 1st level only, have to be from a particular region.

There's another way to get immunity to fear with just a feat, but you need Knowledge: the Planes 8. Planar Touchstone feat linked to the Catalogues of Enlightenment to pick up the Dream domain power. This may be difficult to do on a Warblade unless you spend another feat to pick up Knowledge: the Planes as a class skill.

[John Longarrow]

Why not take it a step further? If you are starting third level you'll have some room to play around with.
Start with 2 levels of Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian and go straight warblade afterwards. It is much smarter to go out of initiator classes for two levels anyways.

Your feats then should probably look like this:
Lvl 1:
Combat Expertise
Extra Rage
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Lvl 2:
Improved Trip (Bonus)
Lvl 3:
Knockdown


You'll have slower progression for one level compared to your other build but some nice synergys and you'll get much more out of Barbarian than just with a 1 level dip. 3 times per day rage which lets you attack one extra time? Yes please! And after rage you ask? IHS to remove fatigue and you are good to go.


edit: you could also start of with warblade and take two levels of barbarian afterwards but it doesn't really matter. Since you start at level three the smaller changes are pretty meaningless and it all comes down to backstory and which skilllist you prefer then. I'd say the barbarian first makes probably more sense -> wild but talented warrior turned swordsmaster.

Feint's End,
His charater is already a lvl 3 warblade. He's looking for future progress.
One level barbarian and one level dragonslayer in the future though....

[Feint's End]

Feint's End,
His charater is already a lvl 3 warblade. He's looking for future progress.
One level barbarian and one level dragonslayer in the future though....

My bad. Should have read more carefully.

[kaine22]

I can see taking Wall of Blades earlier, I am getting hit quite often as it is, I'll see if I can talk my DM into letting me swap them out now since I haven't really had a chance to use Emerald Razor yet. That will let me take White Raven Strike as a L4 which should make the rogue happy.

I do find the swordsage dip kind of cheesy, however I do like your suggestion to take Avalanche of Blades, I never even thought of working that with Stormguard Warrior.


I'll look into the dragonslayer class, I'm not sure how crafty the DM will be with using fear effects but if it starts coming up often I will definitely consider taking it.


It's a too late for me to take a regional feat and we are also playing an Eberron campaign so the DM probably wouldn't allow it anyways.

As for feats, how does my setup look? The DM kind of house-ruled Knockdown that have to beat the AC by 5 on a hit AND do at least 10 points of damage for it to take effect however he did say I get all the benefits of Improved Trip with it which I think is a pretty fair trade.

Anyways thanks for all the advice and I look forward to anymore.

[Sith_Happens]

My plan now is to take a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian at 4th then take the rest of my levels in Warblade.

Any time you take a non-martial adept level you'll want to take a second one later, due to the way initiator level works. Since you're already building for lockdown I strongly recommend it be Crusader so you can get Thicket of Blades (though make sure to ask your DM about the "starts play with a 1st level stance" clause, if s/he rules it applies to multiclassing then you'll need to take Martial Stance).


17th: Stance of Alacrity or Supreme Blade Parry

If you even notice having DR 5 at high level then your DM is wearing about ten layers of kid gloves. An extra immediate action per turn, on the other hand? Pure gold.

Everything else looks great.