Shield fix

[jedipotter]

I've been gaming D&D for a long time. And it was always Shield gives you plus one to armor class. Shields have always been worthless. The plus one did not do much, even at low level. A goblin with a shield died just as fast as the goblin with a two handed weapon or two weapons. So why bother with a shield?

A shield should do much more. Even an untrained fool can block attacks with a shield. And a trained warrior should be able to do more then that.


So what if the plus was made to be +4? Too much? Too little? Unbalanced?

[Slipperychicken]

I think it's a problem with the way D&D handles armor in general. It doesn't mitigate damage (like it does IRL), but decreases the chance to be hit. To illustrate my point: When struck with an ordinary wooden club, a character decked out head to toe in +5 Riverine Mechanus Plate and a +5 Riverine Tower Shield takes the same damage as if he was stark naked.


Additionally, even the bonuses provided by the system don't scale. For a quick fix within the existing system, perhaps shields would let you add your BAB (or the bonus one would have recieved under the Class Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant) in addition to the normal bonus. Alternatively, they might provide cover/concealment in addition to their normal benefit.

[Chronos]

First of all, a large shield now provides +2, not +1. Second, at low levels, yes, that small bonus to AC really is meaningful. The goblin with the shield dies 5% or 10% slower than the one without, on average.

[Aegis013]

With the shield on its own, if it provided +4 shield AC, which then applied to touch AC, and was usable to give yourself partial cover during combat, it would be a more interesting option.

But realistically, the best way to not die in 3.5 is to kill your enemy first, optimally before they can hurt you. A shield does not help with this in the same way that doing an increased amount of damage does.

I personally think that +4 AC from even a small shield is too little past very early levels. Unless more support can be added to make it a better offensive option, it's likely going to continue being an undesirable option in the eyes of the playground. Especially when we start talking about using it against monsters, and thus magic and supernatural abilities.

[Darkweave31]

I think it's a problem with the way D&D handles armor in general. It doesn't mitigate damage (like it does IRL), but decreases the chance to be hit. To illustrate my point: When struck with an ordinary wooden club, a character decked out head to toe in +5 Riverine Mechanus Plate and a +5 Riverine Tower Shield takes the same damage as if he was stark naked.


Additionally, even the bonuses provided by the system don't scale. For a quick fix within the existing system, perhaps shields would let you add your BAB (or the bonus one would have recieved under the Class Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant) in addition to the normal bonus. Alternatively, they might provide cover/concealment in addition to their normal benefit.

I like the idea of the scaling shield bonus as you get more skilled. At low levels where the extra AC is appreciated it still remains about the same, where the epic warrior can rely on his shield to ward off even the greatest foes. I also think shields should help ward off spells and other magical effects. How iconic is the knight shielding his allies from the fiery breath of a dragon?

As for the reducing damage part I'm a big fan of the damage conversion variant in unearthed arcana. Basically takes an amount of damage equal to your armor bonus and turns it into nonlethal damage. I also have it act as damage reduction for normal nonlethal damage (try punching a fully armored knight with your bare hands).

[Grod_The_Giant]

How 'bout if shields granted a miss chance? Say, 5+BAB%, -5% for a buckler and +10% for a tower shield. (If you want rounder numbers, you could do +5% every time your BAB would grant you a new iterative attack). Let the shield bonus apply to touch AC as well as normal, and you've got a solid defensive choice.

[Phelix-Mu]

Miss chance and bonus to Reflex saves would be swell, and be a nice reason for the Fighter and other mundanes to consider shields. I'd have the bonuses scale up with enhancement bonus and with the wielder's level.

Also, I'd be really tempted to integrate shields into a counterattack mechanic.

[Darkweave31]

Miss chance and bonus to Reflex saves would be swell, and be a nice reason for the Fighter and other mundanes to consider shields. I'd have the bonuses scale up with enhancement bonus and with the wielder's level.

Also, I'd be really tempted not to integrate shields into a counterattack mechanic.

Something along the lines of robilar's gambit, only unique to sword and board perhaps? Daze with a shield bash instead of an AoO maybe... Basically allows a shield user to break an attacker's momentum, even mid full attack.

Also definitely something to protect adjacent allies.

[Augmental]

First of all, a large shield now provides +2, not +1. Second, at low levels, yes, that small bonus to AC really is meaningful. The goblin with the shield dies 5% or 10% slower than the one without, on average.

Which is probably worth about a fifth of a round.

[malonkey1]

If I were you, I would do some or all of the following to help make Armor and Shields make more sense:


Use the Armor as DR Variant Rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm)
Use the Class Defense Bonus Rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm)
Use the Armor Damage Conversion Rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm)
Add Strength to Shield AC bonuses (Stronger shield arm = better blocking power), possibly allow Weapon Finesse to apply Dex to Bucklers/Light shields
Apply Shield AC to touch AC
Create a line of Sword-and-Board feats in the line of TWF (only not terrible)

[TuggyNE]

Not sure why this isn't in Homebrew Design, but whatever.

Anyway, +3 more AC might be interesting, but part of the problem there is the wide range of possible ACs, and the number of attacks that can bypass AC entirely, so at low levels it might be rather too good, and at high levels still too little.

Seerow's masterwork fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?202722-D-amp-D3-5-Weapons-Upgrades-and-More) helps this by expanding the range of useful expenditures, and there's at least one other potential shield fix floating around (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?305685-Defenses-Overhaul-%28PEACH-WIP%29).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, I'd be really tempted to integrate shields into a counterattack mechanic.
Based on "real" styles, I'd think that'd fit best with two-weapon fighting.

[Phelix-Mu]

If I were you, I would do some or all of the following to help make Armor and Shields make more sense:


Use the Armor as DR Variant Rule
Use the Class Defense Bonus Rule
Use the Armor Damage Conversion Rule


I like all of that. Can I get a source on these three. I believe I know about two of them, but, just to make sure, and for others that may not know where to look.

[malonkey1]

I like all of that. Can I get a source on these three. I believe I know about two of them, but, just to make sure, and for others that may not know where to look.

SRD links edited into the post.

[Phelix-Mu]

Domo harigato, malonkey1-san.:smallsmile:

[Captnq]

Because a shield is far more useful as a weapon or defensive magic then as armor class.

Augment crystals, ASAs, or make it a master work weapon, and if you layer on the right enchantments, your shield can do 6d6 damage and take free attacks. Like many things in 3.5, a given set of rules may be useful, but rarely as the writers intended.

[Twilightwyrm]

While this is by no means a proper fix, considering how often a shield is used for parrying, and given TWF already has a similar advantage, I would say at the very least someone using a shield while using combat expertise should gain double (or triple if you wanted to let AC be a bit more meaningful) the AC bonus from the feat. This would at lest give the semblance of making Combat Expertise, and indeed shield fighting, a reasonable combat option, and further would not unduly increase the AC of monsters (which already have natural armor as a huge advantage). This would also represent the generally significant advantage shields have provided in warfare over two handed weapons.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Keep in mind any buff you give to shields will apply to the wizard sporting a mithral buckler or light shield (with 0% spell failure and 0 check penalty) on his arm, too.

Just a word of warning...

Taking into account the monks have horrible AC already and are the only class hard-coded to not be able to use any shield, at all, full stop. If you're buffing shields, you should also buff monk. Monk needs help already anyway, of course.

[137beth]

Partially inspired by top-down Zelda-style videogames, I wouldn't mind seeing a sort of projectile/ray reflection mechanic. Being able to reflect Enervations and other spells back at the caster would be a nice perk for shields. The tricky part would be handling area effects...maybe tower shields would allow blocking area spells for allies as well? It's also not particularly realistic, but it could work as an (Ex) class feature for some martial classes (fighters in particular). That would also eliminate StreamoftheSky's concern of buffing shield-wielding wizards.

[Darkweave31]

Keep in mind any buff you give to shields will apply to the wizard sporting a mithral buckler or light shield (with 0% spell failure and 0 check penalty) on his arm, too.

Just a word of warning...

Taking into account the monks have horrible AC already and are the only class hard-coded to not be able to use any shield, at all, full stop. If you're buffing shields, you should also buff monk. Monk needs help already anyway, of course.

Kind of why I like the idea of tying bonuses to base attack bonus. The buffs could also only apply to those proficient in the shield, which means the average wizard would only get the normal benefit...

As for monks is there ever any occasion not to buff them?

[toapat]

As for monks is there ever any occasion not to buff them?

Sure, Whenever paladins get a Bonus Serenity feat at level 3.

[LibraryOgre]

Keep in mind any buff you give to shields will apply to the wizard sporting a mithral buckler or light shield (with 0% spell failure and 0 check penalty) on his arm, too.


Tie it to proficiency in the shield. Boom. Just a touch more expensive for wizards to cheese it.

A few I like (some already mentioned):

Treat shields as cover against ranged attacks... this means they're effective to your touch AC.
Give sword-and-board a favorable benefit with Expertise like 2handed has with Power Attack.
Shields let you add Strength or BAB to AC... brilliant (though adding BAB to AC would make Expertise pointless).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One of the biggest advantages a shield user had was the advantage it possessed against ranged combatants. Arrows, javelins... heck, the Roman Pilum was designed to try and counter that by being so dang heavy that it would drag the guy's shield by the sheer weight of twenty or so of the things stuck into it.

So, how about a feat chain that does a deflect missiles that starts based on the Deflect Arrows feat, without the lousy prerequisite?

Deflect Projectiles
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency, BAB 1+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You must be actively wielding a shield to benefit from this feat. You are not considered to be wielding a shield with the Dancing property. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

Uncanny Deflection
Prerequisite: Deflect Projectiles
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You no longer need to be aware of the attack when using Deflect Projectiles feat.

Active Deflection
Prerequisite: Deflect Projectiles, BAB 3+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You may use Deflect Projectiles a number of times equal to 1+ (1/3 your BAB, round down).

Superior Deflection
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectiles, BAB 6+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You must be actively wielding a shield to benefit from this feat. You are not considered to be wielding a shield with the Dancing property. You may now deflect large projectiles such as boulders hurled by giants or siege weapons. If your shield is enchanted, you may also attempt to deflect a Ranged Touch Attack spell, although it will require a Reflex save 10+(Spell Level).

Turtle Deflection
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectile, Superior Deflection, BAB 9+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You must be actively wielding a shield to benefit from this feat. You are not considered to be wielding a shield with the Dancing property. Your shield gives you an untyped bonus to Reflex save on any Cone, Line, or Sphere area effect whose point of center is not in your square equal to its shield bonus plus any enhancement bonus. Furthermore, when you fight on the defensive, you take no damage or effect if your Reflex save is successful.

Unlimited Deflection
Prerequisite: Deflect Projectiles, Active Deflection, BAB 12+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

There is no limit to the number of projectiles you can deflect with the feat Deflect Projectiles or any feats that use it as a prerequisite, assuming you are capable of deflecting them.

Reflect Projectile
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectiles, Superior Deflection, BAB 12+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

If you successfully deflect a ranged touch attack spell or other projectile which is not destroyed upon being consumed, you may choose to try to reflect the attack back to the wielder as a free action. Make an attack roll at your highest BAB iterative with a -5 penalty. If the attack was a ranged touch attack, then this attack is also considered to be a ranged touch attack.

Bastion of Deflection
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectiles, Superior Deflection, Turtle Deflection, BAB 12+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

If you successfully use Superior Deflection to make a reflex save against an area effect and take no damage from that effect, then you may shield allies from the area effect as well. Any allies that can draw a line from them to the point of origin through you are unaffected by the area effect.

[Incanur]

Second, at low levels, yes, that small bonus to AC really is meaningful. The goblin with the shield dies 5% or 10% slower than the one without, on average.

15% with an extreme shield and 20% with a tower shield. Extreme shield proficiency gained via fighter can be worthwhile.

As far as fixes go, I like the idea of shields protecting against dragon's breath and the like. This makes sense, constitutes a fantasy trope, and even has some historical support (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/articles/medieval_world/know_your_weapons_mamluk_training_manual/).

[malonkey1]

One of the biggest advantages a shield user had was the advantage it possessed against ranged combatants. Arrows, javelins... heck, the Roman Pilum was designed to try and counter that by being so dang heavy that it would drag the guy's shield by the sheer weight of twenty or so of the things stuck into it.

So, how about a feat chain that does a deflect missiles that starts based on the Deflect Arrows feat, without the lousy prerequisite?

Deflect Projectiles
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency, BAB 1+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You must be actively wielding a shield to benefit from this feat. You are not considered to be wielding a shield with the Dancing property. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

Uncanny Deflection
Prerequisite: Deflect Projectiles
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You no longer need to be aware of the attack when using Deflect Projectiles feat.

Active Deflection
Prerequisite: Deflect Projectiles, BAB 3+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You may use Deflect Projectiles a number of times equal to 1+ (1/3 your BAB, round down).

Superior Deflection
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectiles, BAB 6+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You must be actively wielding a shield to benefit from this feat. You are not considered to be wielding a shield with the Dancing property. You may now deflect large projectiles such as boulders hurled by giants or siege weapons. If your shield is enchanted, you may also attempt to deflect a Ranged Touch Attack spell, although it will require a Reflex save 10+(Spell Level).

Turtle Deflection
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectile, Superior Deflection, BAB 9+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You must be actively wielding a shield to benefit from this feat. You are not considered to be wielding a shield with the Dancing property. Your shield gives you an untyped bonus to Reflex save on any Cone, Line, or Sphere area effect whose point of center is not in your square equal to its shield bonus plus any enhancement bonus. Furthermore, when you fight on the defensive, you take no damage or effect if your Reflex save is successful.

Unlimited Deflection
Prerequisite: Deflect Projectiles, Active Deflection, BAB 12+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

There is no limit to the number of projectiles you can deflect with the feat Deflect Projectiles or any feats that use it as a prerequisite, assuming you are capable of deflecting them.

Reflect Projectile
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectiles, Superior Deflection, BAB 12+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

If you successfully deflect a ranged touch attack spell or other projectile which is not destroyed upon being consumed, you may choose to try to reflect the attack back to the wielder as a free action. Make an attack roll at your highest BAB iterative with a -5 penalty. If the attack was a ranged touch attack, then this attack is also considered to be a ranged touch attack.

Bastion of Deflection
Prerequisites: Deflect Projectiles, Superior Deflection, Turtle Deflection, BAB 12+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

If you successfully use Superior Deflection to make a reflex save against an area effect and take no damage from that effect, then you may shield allies from the area effect as well. Any allies that can draw a line from them to the point of origin through you are unaffected by the area effect.

I like these. I'm gonna bookmark this post.

[John Longarrow]

I've been gaming D&D for a long time. And it was always Shield gives you plus one to armor class. Shields have always been worthless. The plus one did not do much, even at low level. A goblin with a shield died just as fast as the goblin with a two handed weapon or two weapons. So why bother with a shield?

A shield should do much more. Even an untrained fool can block attacks with a shield. And a trained warrior should be able to do more then that.


So what if the plus was made to be +4? Too much? Too little? Unbalanced?

So I've been using tower shields wrong all along? I thought they were +4 already!

Sorry, couldn't help it.

There are several feats out there that up your AC when using shields, help out your neighbors, and increase your AC even more when next to someone using a shield.
I think you can get upto +10 to AC (including touch) with fighter feats when you use a shield next to someone else using a shield.

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually had a 2e->3e custom, Large race that had a racial weapon that was essentially a freaking huge, 50lbs shield that they'd strap to their huge arm and proceed to beat people down with it. Picture a boiler plate strapped to the arm of a slightly smaller version of the Hulk. Always loved the image of someone charging around with their own spiked, mobile barrier.

Sadly, the rules in 3e never really seemed to support it like I would have liked. Might take another crack at a conversion with some of the ideas here, though.

[Curmudgeon]

One house rule I use specially for non-casters is to improve shield bonuses:

buckler: +2
light shield: +3
heavy shield +4
tower shield: +5

ASF is 5% times the shield bonus, except for 50% ASF for tower shields (as in the regular rules). Of course, to keep this change from mostly being a boost to spellcasters, the Animated shield property then changes from +2 cost to +4 cost. :smallsmile:

[Darkweave31]

There are several feats out there that up your AC when using shields, help out your neighbors, and increase your AC even more when next to someone using a shield.
I think you can get upto +10 to AC (including touch) with fighter feats when you use a shield next to someone else using a shield.

+10 to touch AC is worth about 100,000 gp (item +5 insight and item of +5 deflection) and frankly, not that impressive at higher levels. At best it scales with a wizard's BAB, which I suppose helps, but I guess depends on the feat investment.

What are these feats? Perhaps they will be a good springboard for a fix.

[John Longarrow]

Darkweave31
AFK, but there's one that grants you shield to touch, Sheild Optimization, Shield Wall, and a couple others.

I worked it out once for a Towers Shield. Toss in the Shield Block maneuver (Shield AC+4 to someone else against one attack) and it worked really good for a bodyguard build.

[Pathagaron]

Deflect Projectiles
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency, BAB 1+
This is a Fighter Bonus Feat

You must be actively wielding a shield to benefit from this feat. You are not considered to be wielding a shield with the Dancing property. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

These feats seem like a great starting point, but I just have a couple of problems and questions:

I would make this require a successful reflex save like a monk's deflect arrows. The problem is that this + the other feats you listed makes you actually immune to ranged attacks rather than just highly resistant.

A good DC for the reflex save might be something like 10 + half BAB + DEX + enhancement modifier. You would then get a bonus on your reflex save equal to your shield bonus. This would make it more challenging to block the arrows of a skilled archer, but would make deflecting a wizard's rays fairly easy.

I'd also like to see the list a bit more consolidated. As it stands, you pretty much have to be a fighter to get the top level feats. And even then so many of your feats a tied into this chain, you can't really do much else.
Maybe Unlimited Deflection could be rolled into Active Deflection? Bastion into Turtle? Reflect into Superior?

I think you might also want a range limit on Reflect Projectile: maybe close or one range increment. And what do you mean by, "which is not destroyed upon being consumed?" I'm assuming you mean like acid flasks, but this could refer to magic arrows which are also destroyed when fired.

[lunar2]

from an old set of fighter bonus feat fixes i made:

Shield Focus (General, Fighter)
Choose one type of shield, such as a light shield. You are better at blocking attacks with the selected shield.
Prerequisites: Fighter 2, proficiency with selected shield
Benefit: The shield bonus you gain from wielding the shield increases by 1 at fighter level 2, 2 at fighter level 6, and 3 at fighter level 10. In addition, you maintain your shield bonus to AC even when you bash with your shield.
Special: you can select this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a different type of shield that you are proficient with. A fighter can select this feat as one of her bonus feats.

Shield Specialization (General, Fighter)
Choose one type of shield, such as light shield, that you have Shield focus for.
Prerequisites: fighter 4, Shield Focus with selected shield.
Benefit:You gain resistance 1 to acid, cold, electricity, fire force, and sonic damage. At fighter level 12, this resistance improves to 2, and at level 16, it improves to 3. This resistance stacks with resistance granted by the shield, or with permanent resistance, such as that granted by levels in the favored soul class, or racial resistance to certain energy types, but not with resistance granted by other items, or from temporary effects such as spells.
Special: you can select this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a different type of shield that you have Shield Focus for. A fighter can select this feat as one of her bonus feats.


Improved Blocking (General, Fighter)
Choose one type of shield, such as light shield, that you have Shield Focus for. You are able to use your shield to deflect attacks, rather than simply block them.
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Shield focus with selected shield.
Benefit: you can apply ¼ of your shield bonus from the selected shield (round down, minimum 1) as a cover bonus to touch AC and reflex saves. At level 18, the cover bonus increases to ½. You do not gain this benefit if you are flat-footed.
Special: you can select this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a different type of shield that you have shield focus for. A fighter can select this feat as one of her bonus feats.

Shield Supremacy (General, Fighter)
Choose one type of shield, such as light shield, that you have Shield Focus, Shield Specialization, and Improved Blocking for. You are unsurpassed in your skill with the selected shield.
Prerequisites: Fighter 14, Shield Focus, Shield Specialization, and Improved Blocking with selected shield.
Benefit: You gain +2 AC, +2 energy resistance, and you increase the cover bonus that improved blocking grants by ¼ your shield bonus (round down, minimum 1). At level twenty, these benefits are doubled.
Special: you can select this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a different type of shield that you have Shield focus, Shield Specialization, and Improved Blocking for. A fighter can select this feat as one of her bonus feats.

with this, even an ordinary buckler provides +8 to AC, touch AC, and reflex saves, and resistance to all energy types, including force, of 7 (which stacks with racial or permanent item based or class feature resistances). going to the other extreme, with a +5 tower shield, you get +16 to AC, touch AC, and reflex saves. you can actually pump your AC up enough that monsters have trouble hitting you (and the wizard has to burn a true strike every single time they want to touch you).

[Andion Isurand]

What if the Shield Specialization feat doubled the base AC bonus you gained from using a shield, but only while you retained your Dex bonus to AC?

[lunar2]

What if the Shield Specialization feat doubled the base AC bonus you gained from using a shield, but only while you retained your Dex bonus to AC?

was that directed at me? if so, it's because this feat line was part of a set with weapon focus line and armor focus line. they all followed the same formula. focus gives a base benefit (to-hit for weapon, AC for armor, and AC for shield). specialization gives a different but related bonus (damage for weapon, max dex and ACP for armor, energy resistance for shield), improved x increased yet another aspect of the category (critical threat for weapon, DR and lighter category for armor, touch AC and reflex saves for shields), and supremacy further improved all 3 existing feats.