Tips on making a necro type cleric after party death today.

[shadowseve]

Soooo the Cleric in our party got her ass handed to her and died during a boss fight today against a pretty vicious evil druid (damn fleshraker and venomfire)

I knew I shouldn't have let her borrow eggynack's druid handbook that he gave me O.o)

Most of the party went down and my giant croc and bear finally finished him off. Croc had a nice dinner before vanishing :smallbiggrin:. Was a fun fight. However; the cleric has always loved my summons and now is interested in summoning something a little more darker. She's wanting to play a Lawful Neutral cleric that rebukes undead instead of turning them. I don't know how that's going to go since my druid is NG and HATES undead worth a passion but it'll make for interesting rp I'm sure...

We have the book of Libris Mortis so I figured that will be a great help in making this character. I told her about these forums, but she's a bit shy and doesn't want to sound dumb. So I'm standing in her place.

Our dm is a first time dm and is not comfortable with allowing multi-classing just yet, though she is doing a great job so far. So it's strait 20 for us all.

Any rate I read a little bit from clericgir's threads and I'm wanting some similar help in taking a cleric down the somewhat dark side of being a necro cleric.

I'm wondering if cloistered cleric would also be a good route and taking the deathbound domain to give her more undead. She's wanting a scythe as a weapon; cliche I know but that's what she wants.

I'm not sure what other domains would be good: War, Time, Spell? I think she's also wanting some DMM cheese as well so I showed her the links in regards to the top ten persited spells and persistable spells per level. We do pathfinder progression but everything else is 3.5. (seems a lot of people here do that too O.o) All books are on the table. She'll def be taking at least one of the corpse crafting feats. So any help would be welcomed.

Any advice would be welcome.

[JeminiZero]

This bit from the previous thread seems appropriate:


Clerics *can* get a minion on par with the Druid animal companion, but that usually involves Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm), and access to the right corpses (usually a Dragon with 4x your CL). Unfortunately, animating undead is usually considered evil. Check with your DM whether whether he is fine with this. If allowed, don't forget to use Desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) for extra HP.

Alternatively, if you want to match its raw strength, you need to DMM Persist Consumptive Field (Spell Compendium) which gives +2 bonus Strength with NO CAP for each creature the field kills. Buy some eternal wands of summon monster I, and start each day with a fresh massacre. Unfortunately, this spell is also evil.

If you happen to be using Rebuke Undead (instead of turn undead), you can also use it to gain permanent control of undead whose total HD does not exceed your level (and seperate from your animate dead pool). This might not seem like much, but it can be used to seize control of undead that create obedient spawn. Such as Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) or Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm). These spawn would then under your indirect command, and unlike animate dead, there is no limit to how many spawn can be controlled, so you could amass an army. But again, this tends to be evil. (You might be beginning to see a pattern here).
Aside from that:


I'm wondering if cloistered cleric would also be a good route and taking the deathbound domain to give her more undead.
Assuming its the same Deathbound I'm looking at (3x CL instead of 2x per casting) there doesn't seem to be much point, since you can use Desecrate instead (becomes 4x CL per casting), which pretty much brings you to maximum cap you can control.


She's wanting a scythe as a weapon; cliche I know but that's what she wants.
Although Cliche, do let her know it is not optimal, since she has to burn a precious feat on weapon proficiency.

So a couple of questions:
1) Does the DM allow nightstick stacking?
2) What level is she starting at (and does she get WBL)?
3) Is she fixed on a race?

[shadowseve]

This bit from the previous thread seems appropriate:


Aside from that:


Assuming its the same Deathbound I'm looking at (3x CL instead of 2x per casting) there doesn't seem to be much point, since you can use Desecrate instead (becomes 4x CL per casting), which pretty much brings you to maximum cap you can control.


Although Cliche, do let her know it is not optimal, since she has to burn a precious feat on weapon proficiency.

So a couple of questions:
1) Does the DM allow nightstick stacking?
2) What level is she starting at (and does she get WBL)?
3) Is she fixed on a race?


she'll allow nightstick stacking but they're supposedly very rare. I'm trying to convince her to do what clericgirl's dm does and that's two nightsticks that renew each day. House rule I know but sounds like a good compromise. constant use without abuse.

We are lv 7.
what is WBL?

she is thinking human.

The reason I brought up the deathbound domain was due to this post

"Most people don’t even know that the Deatbound domain was seriously changed in the errata, so it up to tell your DM about the change or not. That being said, some people are confused as to how the domain works with Desecrate, as the errata on the Deathbound domain power lets you create up to three times your caster level in undead per casting(instead of your double your caster level), and Desecrate allows you to create up to twice your usual limit of 2 HD per caster level of undead(instead of your caster level). You are thinking “How you they stack, if ever?” The answer is that we go to the rules in animate dead itself. When you cast the spell, you specifically control every creature you animate with that casting – losing only creatures from previous castings. This means that you actually can use you whole 6HD per caster level of animated dead – even though your control limit is only 4HD per caster level. This is pretty neat, as it allows a basic Necromancer to create undead armies in one go that are larger than what he can make in multiple steps. You can also make individual undead that are so large that to have a second undead servitor you’d need a Rod of Undead Mastery*. "

in this thread

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1049211

I think she's trying to sweet talk the dm to give her the feat for the scythe for free. I'm not sure she'll go for it though.

I don't know if she wants to completely min max more so than a damn good LN cleric with a theme.

The Dm's ruling is that necromancers aren't inherently evil so animate undead isn't evil. Though my druid and her will probably butt heads a lot.

[shadowseve]

No other thoughts?

[Feint's End]

No other thoughts?

The ruling about the death bound domain seems rather ambiguous and I personally wouldn't let it fly because it kicks consistency in the *** but if the dm allows it I guess it's fine?

Giving scythe for free wouldn't be a big deal really. It's mostly fluff anyways since the cleric is focused on minionmancy and support and only secondary melee. Really just let her have the scythe.

The thing about nightsticks seems like a good idea. I'd definitely ask your dm about that ruling. Maybe make it that ruling and make them very hard to find so that she'll have one at level 3, an additional one at level 10 ... and so forth. Seems like a more natural progression of power instead of gaining 2 right away and then basically not changing with levels (aside from the spells you persist of course).

Human is definitely a good idea though I personally never play them. Since she is a cleric there are tons of races which work fine. T1 doesn't really need the most powerful race as long as you don't take one that has a wis penalty. If she likes another race fluffwise I'd say she should just take it.

When you say dmm persist do you mean the regular self buffing combatmachine or a buffmachine? She'll need the persistfeats but aside from that it's pretty open. If she wants to go the combat route she'll have to get power attack otherwise corpsecrafter sounds like a good idea.

[shadowseve]

I'm wondering what other domain besides the death domain though if the dm lets it fly. SHe wants to be able to melee as well as go in with her minions so she'll prob take a few corpse crafter and power attack as well as dmm some buffs like divine power righteous might consumption field etc...

[Feint's End]

I'm wondering what other domain besides the death domain though if the dm lets it fly. SHe wants to be able to melee as well as go in with her minions so she'll prob take a few corpse crafter and power attack as well as dmm some buffs like divine power righteous might consumption field etc...

Well the usual ones are undeath and planning.
Persist is very flexible so she can change the spells on a day by day basis to suit her needs.

Btw cloistered cleric might still be a viable option for the additional skill points. Melee is a bit harder for the first few levels but the additional options and skillpoints easily make up for it.

[OldTrees1]

I'm wondering if cloistered cleric would also be a good route and taking the deathbound domain to give her more undead. She's wanting a scythe as a weapon; cliche I know but that's what she wants.


Deathbound domain barely gives you any more undead. What you want is the one control pool Clerics don't naturally get. You want the Command Undead Spell via the Necromancer[ECS] domain. Later with a simple Lesser Chain Spell Metamagic Rod [14000gp MIC] you will have on the order of Caster level ^ 2 basic undead with no HD cap.

Assuming you only want to spend less than or equal to 1/4th your WBL on any one item. You would have the Rod at 11th level.
At 7th level (without the rod) you would have Caster level(8) * 1(1 2nd level domain slot) = 8 basic undead of max HD (caster level * 2 = 16)
At 11th level (with rod) you would have Caster level(12) * Caster level+1(13) * 1(1 2nd level domain slot) = 156 basic undead of max HD (20HD or 24HD if dragon undead)

[shadowseve]

Deathbound domain barely gives you any more undead. What you want is the one control pool Clerics don't naturally get. You want the Command Undead Spell via the Necromancer[ECS] domain. Later with a simple Lesser Chain Spell Metamagic Rod [14000gp MIC] you will have on the order of Caster level ^ 2 basic undead with no HD cap.

Assuming you only want to spend less than or equal to 1/4th your WBL on any one item. You would have the Rod at 11th level.
At 7th level (without the rod) you would have Caster level(8) * 1(1 2nd level domain slot) = 8 basic undead of max HD (caster level * 2 = 16)
At 11th level (with rod) you would have Caster level(12) * Caster level+1(13) * 1(1 2nd level domain slot) = 156 basic undead of max HD (20HD or 24HD if dragon undead)

command undead only allows you to command for a certain amount of days though.

As far as race I think she's wanting to actually be some kind of undead. Like a semi incorporeal creature or something.

interesting about the math though. It's early and I'm not quite sure I follow you. I just got off of work and my brain is mush

[OldTrees1]

command undead only allows you to command for a certain amount of days though.

interesting about the math though. It's early and I'm not quite sure I follow you. I just got off of work and my brain is mush
1/day you can cast Command Undead that will last for [Caster Level] days. (repeat as necessary)
After [Caster Level] days you have acquired your [Caster Level] undead servants.
Chain Spell increases the number of undead affected by each casting to [Caster Level +1].
After [Caster Level] days you have acquired your [Caster Level] * [Caster Level + 1] undead servants.

[WeaselGuy]

Weapon of the Deity
(Spell Compendium, p. 237)

Transmutation
Level:Blackguard 3, Cleric 3, Paladin 3, Mysticism 4,
Components: V, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object, harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)



Wielding the weapon your deity favors, you call upon that divine force to imbue it with power.

You must be holding your deity's favored weapon to cast this spell. You can use the weapon as if you had proficiency with it even if you normally do not. The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls and an additional special ability (see the list below). A double weapon gains this enhancement bonus and special ability for only one of its two ends, as chosen by you.

When you reach caster level 9th, the enhancement bonus of the weapon increases to +2. At 12th level, the bonus rises to +3, at 15th level it is +4, and at 18th level it becomes +5.

The list below includes deities from the core pantheon as well as other deities described in D&D supplements, along with the five alignment components. If a cleric worshiping a different deity casts this spell, the DM should assign an appropriate weapon special ability of the same power level as those given here.

DEITIES
Bahamut: +1 frost heavy pick
Boccob: +1 spell storing quarterstaff
Corellon Larethian: +1 keen longsword
Ehlonna: +1 frost longsword
Erythnul: +1 mighty cleaving morningstar
Fharlanghn: +1 defending quarterstaff
Garl Glittergold: +1 throwing battleaxe
Gruumsh: +1 returning shortspear
Heironeous: +1 shock longsword
Hextor: +1 mighty cleaving heavy flail
Kord: +1 mighty cleaving greatsword
Kurtulmak: +1 shock shortspear
Lolth: +1 keen whip
Moradin: +1 throwing warhammer
Nerull: +1 keen scythe
Obad-Hai: +1 defending quarterstaff
Olidammara: +1 keen rapier
Pelor: +1 flaming heavy mace
St. Cuthbert: +1 mighty cleaving heavy mace
Vecna: +1 frost dagger
Wee Jas: dagger of venom
Tiamat: +1 flaming heavy pick
Yondalla: +1 defending short sword

ALIGNMENTS
Good: +1 frost warhammer
Evil: +1 mighty cleaving light flail
Neutral: +1 defending heavy mace
Law: +1 flaming longsword
Chaos: +1 shock battleaxe


Bolded for emphasis...

[Agamemmnoth]

Deathbound domain barely gives you any more undead. What you want is the one control pool Clerics don't naturally get. You want the Command Undead Spell via the Necromancer[ECS] domain. Later with a simple Lesser Chain Spell Metamagic Rod [14000gp MIC] you will have on the order of Caster level ^ 2 basic undead with no HD cap.

Assuming you only want to spend less than or equal to 1/4th your WBL on any one item. You would have the Rod at 11th level.
At 7th level (without the rod) you would have Caster level(8) * 1(1 2nd level domain slot) = 8 basic undead of max HD (caster level * 2 = 16)
At 11th level (with rod) you would have Caster level(12) * Caster level+1(13) * 1(1 2nd level domain slot) = 156 basic undead of max HD (20HD or 24HD if dragon undead)

so what you're saying is command > animate dead. Then why bother with cleric, desecrate, and the corpse crafting feats if you can get more undead via command undead and a few metarods?

[OldTrees1]

so what you're saying is command > animate dead. Then why bother with cleric, desecrate, and the corpse crafting feats if you can get more undead via command undead and a few metarods?
Yes, Command Undead (spell) >> Animate Dead (Spell).
Personally that is why I go Dread Necromancer since they can cast it more times per day (which means they can move from quadratic range into cubic range*). However I do not know if there was something else about cleric that the OP liked.


*Seriously: 420 is nothing to scoff at, but I prefer 8820.

[shadowseve]

Yes, Command Undead (spell) >> Animate Dead (Spell).
Personally that is why I go Dread Necromancer since they can cast it more times per day (which means they can move from quadratic range into cubic range*). However I do not know if there was something else about cleric that the OP liked.


*Seriously: 420 is nothing to scoff at, but I prefer 8820.


Yeah I've read that dread necromancer is the definitive on the undead army. Though she's wanting cleric for DMM cheese, and divine spells. She wants a few really strong undead at her side with all the other fluff a cleric gets. That and she doesn't really want to be "evil" per say. The group has a NG druid a CG crusader and and Dread Necro prob wouldn't fit in. LOL

Edit:
Now if this was an evil campaign I would give a dread necro a go. Looks like a fun solid tier 3 class to kick ass with.

[Agamemmnoth]

now would the mother cyst and necrotic line be worth taking? Looks like there area few decent spells but would it be worth the feat?

[shadowseve]

does command undead interfere with the amount that she can control through animate dead? As far as rebuking goes she can always rebuke a Wight or Shade and gain all their spawns as unlimited undead as well. So if she takes the death bound domain, it's been cleared that using the errated deathbound domain and desecrate gives the 6hd/level I quoted above, and necromancer domain I think she'd be set as long as command plus the rod doesn't interfere with animate or rebuke as far as total hd undead she can command. I think that would be a vicious combo. The dm is granting the marial proficient with the scythe based on fluff. It's not over powered and it's more of a character concept. Add in some dmm persisted spells, 2 corpse crafting feats, power attack, and maybe one extra turn undead and craft contingent spell is a great place to start.

edit
she's going Human/Necropolitan. She's still debating cloistered cleric for the bonus spells and knowledge domain. She could persist lesser infernal transformation but she doesn't know if she would like having a beard as a female O.o. Not exactly sexy.

[OldTrees1]

does command undead interfere with the amount that she can control through animate dead? As far as rebuking goes she can always rebuke a Wight or Shade and gain all their spawns as unlimited undead as well. So if she takes the death bound domain, it's been cleared that using the errated deathbound domain and desecrate gives the 6hd/level I quoted above, and necromancer domain I think she'd be set as long as command plus the rod doesn't interfere with animate or rebuke as far as total hd undead she can command. I think that would be a vicious combo.

Command Undead(Turn Undead), Command Undead(Spell) and Animate Dead(Spell) are all separate control pools. No interference occurs. Although you can create basic undead with Animate Dead(Spell) and shift them to Command Undead(Spell).

[shadowseve]

Command Undead(Turn Undead), Command Undead(Spell) and Animate Dead(Spell) are all separate control pools. No interference occurs. Although you can create basic undead with Animate Dead(Spell) and shift them to Command Undead(Spell).

why would you convert them to command undead if there already under her control? for instance she could easily have two fire giants plus one more 12hd undead animated if there within a desecrated zone with an alter. she could the use her one command undead that wouldn't be affected by desecration for a crap ton more basic undead plus what ever she rebuked.

Edit:
though the command undead is nice sense it offers no save throw to unintelligent undead. I do agree that it offer a nice filler for the cleric.

[OldTrees1]

why would you convert them to command undead if there already under her control? for instance she could easily have two fire giants plus one more 12hd undead animated if there within a desecrated zone with an alter. she could the use her one command undead that wouldn't be affected by desecration for a crap ton more basic undead plus what ever she rebuked.

Edit:
though the command undead is nice sense it offers no save throw to unintelligent undead. I do agree that it offer a nice filler for the cleric.

Let's say you slaughtered a clan of fire giants. Every 2 days you animate 2 Fire Giant Skeletons. Then over the next two days you can Command Undead(Spell) on each of them. The next time you animate 2 Fire Giant Skeletons you will exceed you Animate Dead HD limit. When this happens you oldest Animated Undead leave your Animate Dead pool(until you get back under your HD limit). However they are still under your control via the Command Undead spell.

So you Animate Dead as you gain access to corpses and then you shift any expected overflow into the larger Command Undead(Spell) pool before you overflow the Animate Dead pool.

Edit: No Save. Such sweet words. :evilface

[shadowseve]

Let's say you slaughtered a clan of fire giants. Every 2 days you animate 2 Fire Giant Skeletons. Then over the next two days you can Command Undead(Spell) on each of them. The next time you animate 2 Fire Giant Skeletons you will exceed you Animate Dead HD limit. When this happens you oldest Animated Undead leave your Animate Dead pool. However they are still under your control via the Command Undead spell.

So you Animate Dead as you gain access to corpses and then you shift any expected overflow into the larger Command Undead(Spell) pool before you overflow the Animate Dead pool.

Edit: No Save. Such sweet words. :evilface

I like the way you think. Lol. I think this will be the perfect combination. So the still get the benefit of desecration plus now she's abusing animate and command plus my rod to have a **** ton of undead, not to mention all that's she's rebuked and their spawns. Not bad at all man. That helps a lot so her domains are settled. Now to get the two meta rods I need. the one you mentioned and the meta rod of extend so she can persist spells for 48 hours. I foresee a very powerful character. Easily able to keep up with my druid if not supersede her.

thanks for the help :-)