Help building a thematic character - an einhander swordsman

[justiceforall]

Hi playground,

A fellow player of mine is trying to build a "swordsman" character, a lightly armoured fighter with a good dex who uses a (ideally) longsword one-handed, with nothing in the other hand. He has no apparent interest in being any sort of spellcaster. And we can't use ToB/Incarnum/etc wherever new mechanics are required (maneuvers/melds/etc), or ideally setting-specific splats (just to keep the book delving to a reasonable level).

The upside is it doesn't have to be highly optimised - our group is more about getting the theme as close as you can whilst retaining whatever optimisation you can. In this case - it has to be enough for him to have fun whilst being as good with his sword as he can.

You can find my character for the game here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344081-Sun-School

As you can see from my character, the optimisation level of the game isn't huge. The only changes since that thread is we are 2nd level, and I've swapped my dex and my con stats (so basically irrelevant). We are the only two PCs in the game.

Based off his description of his ideal character, it seems like Daring Warrior (the feat) might actually be a good fit. He's willing to use an Elven Thinblade instead of a longsword, although I don't think he's willing to go to a rapier. The only other thing I can find that really fits the one-handed theme is the Einhander feat once he gets to 6th. Whilst it doesn't seem super powerful, he could progress down the weapon supremacy kind of feat-chain and certainly keep true to his theme, whilst having reasonably good skills thanks to lots of Swashbuckler levels.

The other possible path I've identified that he seemed reasonably interested in was going into the Shadowblade prestige class. It would still carry the thematic requirements in the first paragraph though, that part seems largely non-negotiable. His interest in the Shadowblade class is that the power comes from his character, and is not imbued in the weapon in any way. Eg: he could pick up any sword and still wreck face (which immediately ruled out Kensai/etc classes).

Any comments on the two ideas? Any cool things that could be added? I'm hoping to give him a short guide to the two schemes, with a bunch of options then let him sort it out. Is there some way to use a longsword one-handed that is in any way better than a weapon finesse style?

[HammeredWharf]

Daring Warrior is a bad feat. Grace and the Dodge bonus are both really minor class features that won't make your Fighter noticeably better. I'd go with Daring Outlaw, instead. It has better synergy with the Einhander feat, too. Could he pick Improved Unarmed Strike and punch/kick things as his off-hand attack? That way, he'd still be able to deal considerable Sneak Attack damage.

[justiceforall]

Daring Warrior is a bad feat. Grace and the Dodge bonus are both really minor class features that won't make your Fighter noticeably better. I'd go with Daring Outlaw, instead. It has better synergy with the Einhander feat, too.

Already suggested and he's not interested.

[Feint's End]

Are you deadset on not using ToB or PoW? Because those 2 both have great classes which work just fine with one handing a weapon and don't require any real optimisation to get going from level 1 till 20.

Alternatively you could do a psychic warrior who uses a lot of self buffing and damage increasing buffs. With offensive precognition you start off with +2 damage.

I have thought about this kind of character myself but there is no way i cam up with to do it without initiators, magic or psionic.

[justiceforall]

Are you deadset on not using ToB or PoW?

At the moment yes. We'll probably try out ToB next run.


Because those 2 both have great classes which work just fine with one handing a weapon and don't require any real optimisation to get going from level 1 till 20.

With two characters we probably don't need to optimise at all. I'm more here for angles, not power I guess?

[Feint's End]

With two characters we probably don't need to optimise at all. I'm more here for angles, not power I guess?

So why not just take a fighter and slap on a long sword then? Because if you don't need any optimisation then this is as good as everything else.

It seems you need a functional character though and it just doesn't get any easier to make one than by using ToB. Even if you find another way to make an effective character it will take a significant higher amount of optimisation and probably some cheese too.

In short if you are not looking for high op then ToB is even better because it has a much higher floor.
It needs much more work to make other martial classes work and Einhander without a thing in the second hand is about as weak as martial styles go so the amount of opt. needed to make it work is considerably higher.

[justiceforall]

It seems you need a functional character though and it just doesn't get any easier to make one than by using ToB.

Would anyone else, who is not completely ignoring the restriction, like to comment? You'll have to forgive my frustration. ToB gets mentioned over and over every time I put up a thread that clearly states I can't use it.


So why not just take a fighter and slap on a long sword then? Because if you don't need any optimisation then this is as good as everything else.

Because a fighter might not be the most fun option? Sorry but I'm seriously having trouble interpreting this sentence as anything other than a troll attempt?

[HammeredWharf]

Already suggested and he's not interested.

...why? It's pretty much the same thing as Daring Warrior, except with two feats, actual damage and a whole lot of skill points more. If he wants to be a Fighter, he could just go Fighter 20, but a D&D Fighter is very far from the typical adventurer concept he seems to have in mind.

The thing is, the support for this kind of thing is abysmal in Core. There's Duelist, but it's worse than a straight Fighter. ToB makes the concept viable for things other than getting killed by ECL-4 enemies, but without it you're just fighter, except worse.

[Feint's End]

Would anyone else, who is not completely ignoring the restriction, like to comment? You'll have to forgive my frustration. ToB gets mentioned over and over every time I put up a thread that clearly states I can't use it.

As far as I see from the previous posts you just said you don't want to use it and I just wanted to let you know that it is probably the easiest way to do what you asked for. Yes even with learning a new system.


Because a fighter might not be the most fun option? Sorry but I'm seriously having trouble interpreting this sentence as anything other than a troll attempt?

Listen I'm sorry if it came off a little bit strong but you have to admit that your last post was quite controversial. You said you don't want/need to optimise at all but at the same time you don't want (or can't) use the only book making it effective and fun without much optimization.

I also said it probably isn't impossible to make a halfway decent character (especially if low op and the dm supports the concept) using other material but it will take significantly more work.

Also you haven't answered the question if your friend would be fine using something like a gish.
Magi from pathfinder for example are specifically made to fight with a weapon in one hand and have the other one free and they work really good.

[HammeredWharf]

Also you haven't answered the question if your friend would be fine using something like a gish.
Magi from pathfinder for example are specifically made to fight with a weapon in one hand and have the other one free and they work really good.

Come to think of it, Duskblade would work fine with pretty much any weapon.

[Vedhin]

Unforunately, there's not much to help. the Player's Handbook II has the Einhander feat, which sadly isn't very good. How about Snatch Weapon from Song and Silence? If he's willing to go bard, Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn is good.

And that's about it that I can think of. :smallfrown:

[Feint's End]

Come to think of it, Duskblade would work fine with pretty much any weapon.

Agreed ... Duskblade woul work fine too. I suggested Magus just because it's somewhat smoother and actually support fighting with one weapon (or rather doesn't support other styles). But Duskblade would work fine too.


Vedhin also had a good suggestion. Bard woul indeed work too simply because you get flat boni to hit and damage no matter of the weapon. And if you use Snowflake Wardance you could even be Cha SAD (pretty much). Maybe go DFI build for some really good damage.


Other classes which could work:
-Pathfinder Paladin, Samurai and Cavlier. They all have some nice flat boni to damage and depending on the feats you choose they could be at least decent using a one handed weapon.
-Use the free hand fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/free-hand-fighter) archetype and maybe homebrew some feats to make it more viable. Could be decent in damagedealing.
-Also just found another archetype which would fit rather nicely enter the swordlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/aldori-swordlord-brevoy) ... you can even decide if you want to use dex for attack or str and it looks almost like a longsword. You could even ask your dm for using the feat from PoW that allows you to add your dex to damage with finesseable weapons (was it Deadly Strikes?)

How close are you to your dm? Would he be willing to help you make this work? Because homebrewing or roling some feats into one is a good start as would be allowing gestal between something like Pathfinder Fighter (free hand fighter) // Rogue

[WeaselGuy]

Champion of Corellon Larethian, from Races of the Wild isn't too bad, in my opinion... Allows you to apply Dex to Damage, requires proficiency in courtblade or thinblade, or focus in longsword. Also takes some other feats to pull off, some of them not too great, and a BAB of +7, so there is that... Most popular built using a few levels of paladin, a few of fighter, and a few of swashbuckler, I've built is as Pal2/Ftr2/Swa3/CoCL8/x5.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One option could be going AoO focused ala Jack B. Quick. Pick up Karmic Strike, Elusive Target and Robilar's gambit (only at higher level though) and go to town, they attack you? AoO to the face, they hit you? Another attack of opportunity to the face. You move out of their space provoking AoO and they miss it? You trip them and then stab them in the ground (Thanks to improved trip), it takes a lot of feats, but hey you are a fighter.

Another option I'm really fond of would be getting an Elven Thinblade and dipping a level of Exotic weapon master to get Uncanny Blow stunt, it allows you to treat an exotic one-handed weapon (your thinblade) as a two handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack, which means that you can keep one hand free and still deal a decent amount of damage.

[ArendK]

One option could be going AoO focused ala Jack B. Quick. Pick up Karmic Strike, Elusive Target and Robilar's gambit (only at higher level though) and go to town, they attack you? AoO to the face, they hit you? Another attack of opportunity to the face. You move out of their space provoking AoO and they miss it? You trip them and then stab them in the ground (Thanks to improved trip), it takes a lot of feats, but hey you are a fighter.

Another option I'm really fond of would be getting an Elven Thinblade and dipping a level of Exotic weapon master to get Uncanny Blow stunt, it allows you to treat an exotic one-handed weapon (your thinblade) as a two handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack, which means that you can keep one hand free and still deal a decent amount of damage.

Notice that once the ToB suggestions were out of the way, actual answers and approaches to the scenario at hand emerged?
Not a bad set of suggestions either, just different approaches.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't understand what you mean. None of my suggestions use ToB or any subsytem, they are all normal feats and all of them (save for Robilar's gambit) are from really early in 3.5 lifespan.

[dascarletm]

I don't understand what you mean. None of my suggestions use ToB or any subsytem, they are all normal feats and all of them (save for Robilar's gambit) are from really early in 3.5 lifespan.

I think you were used as a showcase to his point

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh... that makes sense :smallredface:

I actually now want to build that character... sounds fun except for the lack of skills >_<

[WeaselGuy]

Oh... that makes sense :smallredface:

I actually now want to build that character... sounds fun except for the lack of skills >_<

See? This is my problem! I come up with random ideas to help people out, and then can't wait for my character in my campaign to die just so I can try them out!

[dascarletm]

See? This is my problem! I come up with random ideas to help people out, and then can't wait for my character in my campaign to die just so I can try them out!

I've got a reputation in my group as a guy who can't pick an character to stick with.

One campaign I had a new character almost every other session :smallredface:

Of course I will never hear the end of it. :smallyuk:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I know how you both feel, at times I have to clear my Myth-weaver sheets because it gets too crowded with unused character.

[WeaselGuy]

I've got a reputation in my group as a guy who can't pick an character to stick with.

One campaign I had a new character almost every other session :smallredface:

Of course I will never hear the end of it. :smallyuk:

I have twice now (once in my last campaign, and once in this campaign) had a character leave so I could play a different one.
The first was a Warlock/something, that left because I wanted to play that champion of corellon build up there. I RPed it out, cause my wife didn't like her favored soul and wanted to play a pixie scout instead, so, us being half-drow, we had her get abducted in the night by drow, and me follow her to attempt a rescue. (Plot spoiler, those 2 characters make a reappearance in my buddie's campaign as big baddies when we rotate back to him as dm).
On this current campaign, after performing substandard, my nightcrawler-esque character decided to say "Screw you guys, I'm going home" and bailed. He accomplished his character hook of being with the group by killing a slavemaster, and didn't feel it was worth it to stick around and continue stabbing at oozes. This was so I could bring in a (slightly) more effective rogue/beguiler build, that is much more fun to play.

My DM has told me that if I want to bring in a new character, my current one better be dead first.

[Eldest]

Notice that once the ToB suggestions were out of the way, actual answers and approaches to the scenario at hand emerged?
Not a bad set of suggestions either, just different approaches.

*waves hands* You didn't see anything...

OT: Would a hexblade debuffing build be of interest?

[Dusk Eclipse]

And yet you continue the quarrel, for what it is worth he doesn't seem to have trouble with ToB itself, but with the people that despite the OP, insist on suggesting ToB. I know it is a wonderful book and I make use of it extensively, but sometimes it isn't the right answer.

Personally I think it is rather rude to continue pushing people to use ToB when they have already explained why the can't/won't use ToB.

[Eldest]

And yet you continue the quarrel, for what it is worth he doesn't seem to have trouble with ToB itself, but with the people that despite the OP, insist on suggesting ToB. I know it is a wonderful book and I make use of it extensively, but sometimes it isn't the right answer.

Personally I think it is rather rude to continue pushing people to use ToB when they have already explained why the can't/won't use ToB.

Good point, I'm grouchy. Editing it.

[The Grue]

I've noticed this is a frequent trend on these forums.

"Hey guys, is there a way I can do X without using Y?" being immediately followed by "You should use Y , it's the best way to do X."

I wonder why that is.

[Averis Vol]

How about just straight swashbuckler with the companion guard style (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Companion_Guard_Style) feat. That way you could get the light armored swordsman feel, and still have decent (for low op atleast) damage output, as well as a moderate list of skills.

[justiceforall]

Listen I'm sorry if it came off a little bit strong but you have to admit that your last post was quite controversial. You said you don't want/need to optimise at all but at the same time you don't want (or can't) use the only book making it effective and fun without much optimization.

Controversial seems a bit far. Perhaps my choice of phrase was loose. I'm trying to find as many fun options for the other player since he basically never book delves, within the restrictions of what we've got to work with. Fun does not have to mean optimised, especially not in this group which still has a lot of hangups from the past where playing for power = being a munchkin scumbag.

I wouldn't be surprised if Fighter was some of his levels, but it doesn't seem to fit the overall picture (hence me looking at Daring Warrior).


Another option I'm really fond of would be getting an Elven Thinblade and dipping a level of Exotic weapon master to get Uncanny Blow stunt, it allows you to treat an exotic one-handed weapon (your thinblade) as a two handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack, which means that you can keep one hand free and still deal a decent amount of damage.

I was reading this in the off-hand thread yesterday. Is this RAW? It certainly makes Exotic Weapon Master MUCH better.


"Hey guys, is there a way I can do X without using Y?" being immediately followed by "You should use Y , it's the best way to do X."

I get it in virtually every thread I put up (because almost all my threads have a restriction on rules).

[Feint's End]

I've noticed this is a frequent trend on these forums.

"Hey guys, is there a way I can do X without using Y?" being immediately followed by "You should use Y , it's the best way to do X."

I wonder why that is.

Actually we usually ask why Y is not an option and if there is a certain reason op doesn't want to use it if it fits the character he (or she) has in mind. Sometimes people just have some misunderstandings concerning certain areas and can actually be helped this way.

[The Grue]

Actually we usually ask why Y is not an option and if there is a certain reason op doesn't want to use it if it fits the character he (or she) has in mind. Sometimes people just have some misunderstandings concerning certain areas and can actually be helped this way.

In other words, to make sure the poster is playing D&D the correct way?

[torrasque666]

I'm beginning to wonder if we have any Acid or Fire laying around...

[chickenkiller]

Because a fighter might not be the most fun option? Sorry but I'm seriously having trouble interpreting this sentence as anything other than a troll attempt?

this here is my pet peev dont be so quick to trash the fighter...... with quick draw, some gadgets from complete scoundrel and some interestingly enchanted throwing options (lets use this free off hand) a fighter could have an almost batman feel to it with tons of options.

[ben-zayb]

Since Op isn't an issue, I'll offer another skillmonkeyish suggestion:

Nonspellcasting variant RangerX/Scout3(or4) with Spring Attack line and Swift hunter.

it's definitely light armored, it's mobile, it gives damage and AC boosts, and it can do other fun skill related stuff. I'm not sure if there are any 3rd party Ranger Variant that gives different weapon style for einhander, but it's not that bad even if there isn't.

[justiceforall]

this here is my pet peev dont be so quick to trash the fighter...... with quick draw, some gadgets from complete scoundrel and some interestingly enchanted throwing options (lets use this free off hand) a fighter could have an almost batman feel to it with tons of options.

I wasn't trashing the fighter - you've taken my quote out of context. I believe that fighter will almost certainly be involved in some way in the build, but it *probably* doesn't give him enough skill points to do the other agile-ish stuff he wants to do.


Since Op isn't an issue, I'll offer another skillmonkeyish suggestion:

Nonspellcasting variant RangerX/Scout3(or4) with Spring Attack line and Swift hunter.

So to explore this option further - lets assume he needs to (at this stage) spend feats on:

1st Weapon Finesse (high dex, low strength)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Thinblade

3rd Dodge

6th Swift Hunter

9th Einhander

If he jams Scout 4 in there somewhere he gets a bonus he can use for Mobility? He also ends up with Rapid Shot or TWF which he can use as he sees fit (his character does own a bow, he just only seems to use it to provoke people into getting into melee with him).

[chickenkiller]

I wasn't trashing the fighter - you've taken my quote out of context. I believe that fighter will almost certainly be involved in some way in the build, but it *probably* doesn't give him enough skill points to do the other agile-ish stuff he wants to do.

my apologies......have you thought about allowing the varient rogue from unearthed arcana that gets fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack.

[justiceforall]

Not yet - is that feat rogue significantly better than a few levels of Swashbuckler though?

Swash gets BAB, int to damage, and more HP vs
Feat-rogue more skills, evasion, trapfinding (GM said trapfinding is useless in this campaign), and one additional feat?

[Vedhin]

Not yet - is that feat rogue significantly better than a few levels of Swashbuckler though?

Swash gets BAB, int to damage, and more HP vs
Feat-rogue more skills, evasion, trapfinding (GM said trapfinding is useless in this campaign), and one additional feat?

Try seeing if the DM will allow Feat Rogue to work with Daring Outlaw. That might be a good way to work it.

[chickenkiller]

full fighter bonus feats not just one so every 2 lvls.why not multi swashbuckler feat rogue, the biggest reason i could see not to is if your very attached to getting 20/15/10/5 bab.

edit also your forgetting one of the money skills from the rogue list umd

[Seerow]

Last time I was looking into doing this without homebrew, I wound up eventually giving up and going Two Weapon Fighting instead simply because anything that works with einhander works better with you using your second hand on something, anything.

What I was aiming for at the time though was a fighting defensively build, using a broadblade shortsword and whatever I could find to boost combat expertise. At level 6 I got it up to being able to take a -2 penalty for combat expertise to gain +2(base)+1(bb shortsword)+1(trait)+2 einhander+2(bracers of blocking) = +8. That goes up to +9 if your DM ignores the unnecessary errata to the shortsword. With another feat that can be shared with all adjacent allies. Another feat lets you gain a bonus 1d6 damage while doing this, which is pretty decent when you're using it constantly.

I feel like Fighting Defensively/Combat Expertise really hit to the core of the feel of the Einhander style, so taking full advantage of that is a plus IMO.


Also if you go fighter primary, remember that Thug exists to give more skills (since you're likely going dex primary anyway, losing heavy armor won't hurt much), and Zhentarim gives Bluff as a class skill for a few levels (which will help you max out Bluff for the free feint from Einhander), and is generally pretty awesome (giving you an alternate method to be useful besides damage). Also if your DM is nice and willing to let you mix fighter variants with other ACFs and newer feats, Exoticist (from Dragon Magazine) gets free Exotic Weapon proficiencies and Tumble as a class skill (as well as some alternate feat options which, while fairly weak, probably fit the flavor you're looking for).

The earlier mentioned Exotic Weapon Master to get full power attack damage on an exotic one-handed weapon is a good call as well, as it lets you manage to maintain decent damage despite literally tying one hand behind your back.

Also, as long as you are going Dex primary, even if you don't want to use ToB in general, seriously look into Shadow Hand/Assassin's Stance. I'm not going to say go Swordsage/Warblade, but dipping 3 feats into it can net you a 1/combat trick, +2d6 sneak attack, and dexterity to damage. Your other real option is starting out with 3 levels of Swashbuckler and splitting Dex and Int (which may be something you want to consider anyway).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Controversial seems a bit far. Perhaps my choice of phrase was loose. I'm trying to find as many fun options for the other player since he basically never book delves, within the restrictions of what we've got to work with. Fun does not have to mean optimised, especially not in this group which still has a lot of hangups from the past where playing for power = being a munchkin scumbag.

I wouldn't be surprised if Fighter was some of his levels, but it doesn't seem to fit the overall picture (hence me looking at Daring Warrior).



I was reading this in the off-hand thread yesterday. Is this RAW? It certainly makes Exotic Weapon Master MUCH better.


Here is the full text of the Uncanny Blow stunt

Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus ×2 instead of his Strength bonus ×1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as twohanded for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls.

Emphasis mine; If you notice the ability to treat the weapon as a two hander for Power attack is separated by a period, furthermore if you needed to wield the weapon in two hands for that to activate, then it would be a redundant ability since you can already two hand a one-handed weapon by default.

[Mandark]

Swashbuckler gets you weapon finesse for free. Race Elf and Improved Weapon Familiarity will let you use the thinblade at first level. The thinblade counts as a rapier and a longsword. The light blade is a rapier/dagger. And Elf and Improved Weapon Familiarity also lets you use a courthouse, a finesse-able forwarders, for the Times that you just need to hit with a d10 18-20 x2