Need help killing Tiamat

[Quietus]

Okay, so my PC buddies and I got ourselves into a bit of a jam... one that we can't exactly get ourselves out of. We agreed to do a job for Tiamat, and reneged. The party currently looks like this :

Level 20-something druid, animal companion MIA. Currently in control of an enormous robot with Magic Missile-like fists.
Level 22 Halfling Half-fiend Rogue, with unique homebrewed everything; Mordenkainen's Disjunction at will, Forcecage 1/day, and an aura that, when active acts as a Rusting Grasp spell on everything within 20 feet.
Dwarf Paladin - apparently lucky as hell, I don't know exactly what's up with him. No idea on his level.
Planetar Cleric - Extremely good melee combatant, bad luck with vorpal things though.

And my character, Keldarin, a True Necromancer currently casting as a level 20 cleric/level 20 wizard. Specialized to Necromancy, disallowed schools : Abjuration and Enchantment, Domains : Death, Magic. Has the ability to turn himself into a Lich for 8 minutes a day.

Here's the situation; I'm expecting to be travelling for another four days doing interplanar travel in search of some other PC's to help us fight. I might have two more days to prepare. In those two days, I'm going to be enlisting the aid of the half-fiend halfling to capture a divine rank 0 superelf to be ritually sacrificed to my Goddess, Wee Jas... a bit of brownnosing before I use a Miracle to beg her to shut off Tiamat's divine power. I don't know if this will work; If it doesn't, I don't see any way for us to win.

Assuming we can get Tiamat's divine power shut off, we MIGHT have a tiny bit of a chance. I'll be in Lich form, and have awesome fort saves, so I won't have to worry about SoS, or SoD spells so much - Disintegrate, maybe. Other spells will be a minor issue. I essentially expect my character to run support; Prepare a lot of non-damaging spells and use everything at my advantage to stop Tiamat from bending us over. However, I created this character at this high level, I've not had time to adjust and get used to the power of a high-level wizard/cleric, and learn all the tricks of the trade.

Can anyone suggest ideas for what kinds of spells/combinations I can use? I'll have everything maximized thanks to an Incense of Meditation (as will the planetar cleric), if that makes a difference, and my only metamagic feat is Quicken Spell. I don't think books are limited; However, if you suggest a nonstandard spell, I'll need you to say which book it's from, just in case. In terms of Tiamat's power level, I expect... well, I don't expect what's in the Deities and Demigods book. It's more likely that we'll be facing something that's a combination of every chromatic Great Wyrm put together. Assuming we can get her Divine Rank removed temporarily, that is.

[Bears With Lasers]

Divine SLAs are your biggest worries. Find out what hers are. Find out how you can avoid them pwning you.

Disjunction at will is pretty much made of win. "Bam! Your spells are gone."

Here's a useful trick: Greater Dispel Magic + Chain Spell (or Rod of Chain Spell--buy, beg, or borrow one). Target all her items, if she has them. Suppress their magic (1d4 rounds). Then follow up with a chained Shatter. This will knock out out all of her magic stuff. With that and with no spells, killing her should be a matter of whatever way is easiest; with dragons, that's normally Dexterity damage or penalties. Check Ray of Clumsiness from the Spell Compendium, followed up by a Ray of Exhaustion or two, to bring her dex below 0. Alternatively, use Shivering Touch from Frostburn.

If you're worried about SR, Assay Spell Resistance from the Spell Compendium should help.


Edit: dirty trick for anyone with Shapechange: turn into a Choker for two standard actions a round (i.e. two spells), or into a Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio, I think?) for two full-round actions a round. Combine this with some way of getting out of danger easily (such as the Xorn Movement spell from the SPell Compendium, letting you move through the ground) to stay in the earth, then on your turn, pop out, cast, and pop back in to where you can't really be touched (no line of sight/effect).

[NEO|Phyte]

I hear that teleporting a Holy sword into her heart does wonders...

[Quietus]

I'm liking a lot of those ideas, Bears - only problem will be with which spells are Arcane, and which are Divine. I suppose I should attempt to get hold of a copy of the Spell Compendium; I take it Chain Spell is in there?

Also, I've always assumed that Ray of Enfeeblement DOES stack with itself; Does Ray of Clumsiness do the same? Also, what exactly does Assay Spell Resistance do?

[Bears With Lasers]

All the spells I mentioned were arcane.

Chain Spell is a feat from the Complete Arcane.
You can illegally pirate the Spell Compendium off of the internet; Ray of Clumsiness and Assay Resistance are in there (among other goodies).

Ray of Enfeeblement does NOT stack with itself. It's a penalty coming from the same source. Those don't stack. Only the biggest of the RoE penalties applies. Ray of Clumsiness works the same way.

Assay Spell Resistance is a 4th-level arcane Divination. Swift-action casting time, rounds/level duration, gives +10 to checks to penetrate a single creature's Spell Resistance.

[Quietus]

Swift... oohhhh... Is it personal range?

And I'm liking that Choker setup. Defiantely, DEFINATELY liking that. I'm assuming that Ray of Clumsiness is the same, 1d6+1 dex damage? I suppose that what I should be doing (after magical items are dealt with; The halfling's first action is going to be Disjunctioning her and all of her items) is throwing up an Assay Spell Resistance, drop a Lower Spell Resistance (from the Draconomicon; -20 to her fort save against that one spell, if she fails her save, her SR drops by 15) on her, then start firing off some Energy Drains, if she's susceptible to them. As a result of my levels and such, I have +29 (+39, with Assay Spell Resistance) to breaking through her SR. If we can remove her Death Ward and her Divine Ranks, she SHOULD, by all rights, be susceptible to level drain. And with all of my Energy Drains maximized... Heh, heh. Assuming she's at 60 SR (Doesn't seem unreasonable, considering we're level 20), then my LSR brings her to 45, and my normal Edrains have +36 to break through. I should be able to drop her level (saves, attack rolls, skill checks, all the good stuff) by eight per turn. Though now I'm wondering if Edrain stacks with itself.

Even if it doesn't... Edrain + Enervation + Energy Ebb (from the Libris Mortis) = 12 negative levels, +1 per round. That's... quite helpful.

If I throw a Bestow Curse on her first, between that and Ray of Clumsiness, I can drop her dex by 11. That's... a start. Any other dex-reducing stuff you can think of? I'm expecting her to have at least 30...

[Bears With Lasers]

I'm not sure that she ought to have 30 dex--Great Wyrms generally have, oh, nine. If she does, Dex isn't a weak point anymore.

Ray of Clumsiness is just like Ray of Enfeeblement. It's a penalty, *not* damage, and it's 1d6+(1/2 caster levels, max 5).

If she has 30 dex, your best bet is to get Death Ward down with disjunction and pelt her with negative levels until she has enough saving throw penalties for you to get an Imprisonment or Implosion or something past her saves.


Actually, that's not true, your best bet is Shivering Touch. Lesser Rod of Maximize Spell will make it do 18 dex damage; just two of those and that 30 dex goes down. You just need to get past the Spell Resistance.

[MeklorIlavator]

Doesn't shivering touch not allow spell restistance? And wouldn't an extended shivering touch be better?

[Quietus]

The only problem with... ohhhh...

... I need to get hold of the Spell Compendium, if that's where Shivering Touch is. Quicken teleport on her back, as a choker, two touch attacks as standard... haha. Just gotta cast'em on the defensive. Assume she doesn't have a "screw you" ability for that, which she might.

By the way, maximize spell isn't needed. I have Incense of Meditation; I'll be using that before we fight Tiamat. All of my spells will be prepared maximized, with no change to their spell level or casting time.

[SpiderBrigade]

Pretty sure Shivering Touch does allow SR, or I'd have suggested it over in the "Can any Spell harm it?" thread...

[J-man]

Looking at the book with big T in it... you have no change. Looking at what your DM has given to you already, go for it, you will be ok.

edit: she's immune o ability damage/drain and negative energy btw

[Quietus]

I'm aware, J-man. What's in the Deities and Demigods book is moot, for one - I don't think the DM has that, and he wouldn't send something nearly that weak at us, and call it a God. I mean, we ARE newly Epic. We should be able to handle things of Divine Rank 10, shouldn't we?

The ability damage/dragin, negative energy, etc, is a result of her Divine Ranks. If I can brownnose Wee Jas enough beforehand, we may get her Divine Ranks turned off for a short time - which would allow us to do that kind of damage.

[Bears With Lasers]

The only problem with... ohhhh...

... I need to get hold of the Spell Compendium, if that's where Shivering Touch is. Quicken teleport on her back, as a choker, two touch attacks as standard... haha. Just gotta cast'em on the defensive. Assume she doesn't have a "screw you" ability for that, which she might.

By the way, maximize spell isn't needed. I have Incense of Meditation; I'll be using that before we fight Tiamat. All of my spells will be prepared maximized, with no change to their spell level or casting time.

Shivering Touch is in Frostburn. Level 3 Sor/Wiz, Touch range, no save, SR yes, 3d6 dex damage. Doesn't affect [Cold] subtype creatures.

As a god, she's likely immune to ability damage, but you said you'll be fighting a different version of her than what's in the book, so it could work.

[Nerd-o-rama]

1. Research an Epic Spell of Kill Tiamat, requiring a ninjillion first-level casters to bring the DC down to zero. Get Epic Leadership. Bam.

2. Someone already did the "teleport a sword into her heart" joke, or I'd suggest it.

[Thomas]

2. Someone already did the "teleport a sword into her heart" joke, or I'd suggest it.

Oh man, that was a legendary thread.

D&D forum memes. Love 'em.

[Bears With Lasers]

I must be missing a reference.

[Woot Spitum]

Question from the crowd: Even if you remove Tiamat's divine ranks, isn't it only possible to kill her avatar (especially if she still has worshippers)? Which means all you'll accomplish is temporary removal from the prime material plane of a deity's body. And REALLY piss off a goddess. Not the goddess of mustard and limericks. The goddess of EVIL DRAGONS.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I must be missing a reference.
I'd link the thread, but I believe it disappeared into the mists of time long ago...

[Renegade Paladin]

She's Tiamat. She's a god. You're as good as dead.

[Rigeld2]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24549&highlight=sword+teleport+heart

Its not gone.

[Quietus]

I'm aware, Renegade, that she's a god and by all rights, we're idiots for trying this. Hence the hopeful removal of her divine ranks.

To make things more fun, we aren't fighting her on the Prime Material... WE'RE going to HER, on the first layer of Hell. I think. Or we might just sit on the Prime Material and wait for her to come to us. I'm not 100% sure.

Nerd-O-Rama; None of us are capable of casting epic spells. I don't think the Druid picked up Epic Spellcasting, and while my character (through various special abilities) casts as a 20th level cleric/wizard, he doesn't actually have above 20th level. He's basically Gestalt, to make up for the brokenness of other chars (like the L22 rogue with +80 hide/move silently and Mordenkainen's Disjunction at will).

The spell resistance thing isn't so bad; Between my Lower Spell Resistance spell and this Assay Spell Resistance, I should be able to break it. However, I believe Tiamat will have the [cold] subtype, so Shivering Touch won't help. Nuts.

[Jimp]

Alternatively, use Shivering Touch from Frostburn.

Also known as THE anti-dragon spell. It's anti- a lot of other things too.

[themightybiggun]

This is simple, you don't need to beat her, just scare her enough to leave you alone.

Get her here on the Prime Material

get a Gimongous lance blessed by all the forces of good,

ride a silver dragon straight into her,

Plunge the lance into her and either threaten her into getting off your plane, or finish her off...

oh wait...

no, you're screwed.

[Nahal]

Wouldn't Bahamut be at least intrigued at the thought of bringing Tiamat down? He micht be willing to sever her powers... of course if Tiamat is then killed and Bahamut discovered to be involved you risk the war to end all wars between chromatic and metallic dragonkind, and their offspring, and their minions... wow that could get bloody.

[The_Snark]

Just thought I'd point out that there's a reasonable chance your DM will give Tiamat the cold subtype, what with the white dragon head. That would mean Shivering Touch doesn't work.

I would have reccommended Banishing her, but... you're on her home plane. Just remember, though, if a total party kill threatens, you can always Banish yourself, and maybe another party member with you.

Aside from that... Gate is a nice spell. See if your DM will let you Gate in paragon pseudonatural balors.

Condemnation and Subvert Planar Essence are spells that will reduce outsider spell resistance. Although they allow saving throws, I think. From Complete Divine and/or PHBII, I believe.

Trying to take out Tiamat is tough.

Oh; there's a Piercing Cold metamagic feat in Frostburn, which allows spells with the cold descriptor to bypass resistance and deals half damage to creatures with immunity. Might be able to get that to work with Shivering Touch, if you talk to the DM. And fortunately for you, they come in metamagic rod form.

[Nerd-o-rama]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24549&highlight=sword+teleport+heart

Its not gone.
Thanks. Apparently, my search-fu is weak. I bow to your expertise as I simultaneously double over in nostalgic laughter.

Man, I'd forgotten I'd even posted in there. Which I probably shouldn't have in the first place, as the argument was long done.

[oriong]

I don't think the chained dispel + chained shatter is a good idea. Any magic items she has will likely be high enough that the dispel magic will likely fail, and putting a second level spell up against a god's will save isn't a safe bet. But I don't think it'll matter, gods have notoriously few magical items.

Shivering touch will work (assuming you can peirce the SR 42, not a good bet) but it won't be an instakill for her, way to many abilities that don't actually require her to move. If she still has her Divine Immunities then she will be immune to it altogether.

A lot depends on what 'shutting off her divine power' means. If it's just removal of stuff like salient divine abilities then you're pretty screwed, but if it effectively takes away all her divine ranks she's actually not all that tough, but then it becomes a problme of figuring out what abilities she does and doesn't have.

[PinkysBrain]

If Wee Jas does anything of that magnitude for you she might as well go and kill Tiamat herself, I don't see that happening unless you bribe your DM out of game. You could ask her to block Tiamat's ability to remote sense you perhaps.

Your only option is to kill her in a surprise round, after that you are toast.

[Quietus]

The thought of bringing Bahamut into things has come up; Someone suggested it as a possibility. We might have one of his avatars with us, but not Bahamut himself. I'm not counting on that, though, because I'm part of Team Evil, and that's Team Good's issue.

As for destroying her magic items... it's tempting to do so, it really is. However, there's also the fact that destroying her magic items means lessening out loot; And MY end of the benefit from this kill comes directly from the loot, one of the evil guys has already come up with a plan to steal all of the divine essence for himself. Not having divine rank, my character apparently isn't allowed to know anything about divine power. Lame.

I'm not willing to spend what little time I have researching a spell that probably won't work against her, so Shivering Touch is out. With a White head, Tiamat's GOING to have the Cold subtype, so Shivering Touch isn't an option - and I don't have the money for a metamagic rod.

[oriong]

Actually Tiamat (going by the Dieties and Demigods stats) doesn't have any sort of subtype, but keep in mind that she's not like your standard dragon with only natural armor: she's got a +10 Divine and a +9 deflection to AC, so getting that touch attack in isn't going to be as easy as it is for a dragon (again, also dealing with divine immunities and SR 42)

[AtomicKitKat]

Last I checked, Tiamat essentially has immunity to every energy type a Chromatic Dragon has.(Red=Fire, Black=Acid, Green=Poison, Blue=Electric, White=Cold). No Dragon has a Dex below 10. They're not master thieves, but they're not any more impeded by their bulk than your average human. Just by virtue of being a deity(nothing to do with Salient Divine Abilities), she has immunity to Poison(redundant), Fire(redundant), practically anything a Necromancer would specialise in(energy/level/ability damage/drain), and a few others. No god would willingly engage too heavily in the destruction of another god, lest the attempt fails and the tactic is turned back on them. At best Wee Jas would be able to stop remote sensing, maybe Contingent Resurrect you(is she higher ranked than Tiamat? Otherwise that Super Godly Smite SDA=Please roll up new characters).

[The_Snark]

As he's pointed out though, his DM will be using his own stats, meaning that you can't count on Tiamat's stats in Deities and Demigods, or even on the general conventions for gods in the book. It is a pretty fair bet, though, that Tiamat will be immune to pretty much every energy but sonic, have large amounts of spell resistance, and likely immunity to most types of instant death spells, because that's a little anticlimactic.

And if the DM judges that Wee Jas wants to indulge the miracle, Wee Jas might be able to prevent divine rank from coming into this; she's higher rank than Tiamat, and has magic as part of her portfolio. Remember, she has the life of a very, very powerful follower at stake here.

[Quietus]

Indeed, a VERY important follower. Wee Jas is well aware that if Keldarin survives this, he's got a list of things to do - first is turn himself into a full lich (he's kind of in between right now, can turn himself into a lich for 8 minutes a day, special ability he picked up), then either find a place where he can safely start up a public temple to Wee Jas, or he's going to go to a Radioactive Desert (long story involving a Tome of Death that became a 200 foot skeleton that exploded), fix the desert, and claim that entire area in the name of Wee Jas. His entire long term goal is to directly increase Wee Jas's power by spreading her influence and making it a much more common thing to worship her openly.

I only hope that if I DO die, Wee Jas takes my soul from Tiamat, since Wee Jas is a higher divine rank. I'd rather not be a dragon-goddess's toy for the rest of existence.


Oh, and it was just brought to my attention in another thread - Undead could, potentially, be able to use Corrupt spells freely, because the ability damage/drain cost associated with them, doesn't affect undead. So if you have ideas involving them, let me know - I can prepare them as a Cleric spell no problem.

[oriong]

I think the problem is that without any sort of stats to go on (not even knowing if tiamat will have access to basic divine abilities or not) there's not really much advice we can give. The basic stuff just boils down to the following:

Assume she can make any saving throw you can throw at her.
Assume she has a ton of hit points, and can inflict a ton as well.
Assume that anything that would take her out in one hit she has immunity to.
Assume she has extremely high, unbeatable or nearly so, SR.

[Quietus]

.... I figured as much. However, I just found something neat in the Book of Vile Darkness; Unliving Weapon. My necromancer knows Plague of Undead.

Step one : Visit largest nearby graveyard. Cast Plague of Undead until I have my full compliment of skeletons (I think that's 4HD/level, and I cast PoU at caster level... 24. So 96 skeletons).

Spend my time travelling making as MANY scrolls of "Unliving Weapon" as I can.

The day before I go to fight Tiamat, use every spell slot I've got on casting Unliving Weapon on every skeleton I can. 3rd level spell - I can prepare close to 40 of them for a single day. I could prep enough skeletons to make a bomb. Even if I can only pack 50 skeletons, at 10d6 untyped damage each, no save.... that's 500d6 damage.

Suggestions?

[The_Snark]

Not bad, but I'd keep some of the other spell slots you have. Buffing party members and using spells that don't allow saves (Ray of Enfeeblement) is a good option too. Waves of Exhaustion, Ray of Clumsiness (the Dex equivalent of Enfeeblement), that sort of thing. Just found Ray of Dizzinesss, too, in the Spell Compendium; third-level ray, hits the target with a Slow effect, no save. Very nice because it forces her onto the ground and prevents her from attacking with all five heads.

And make sure your party is out of the blast radius on those skeletons.

[Thomas]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24549&highlight=sword+teleport+heart

Its not gone.

Oh you sweet, wonderful person.

I am in tears.

[oriong]

How would the skeletons get to her? If you're going to visit her you probably are going to be expected and it seems like the standard response to a hoard of skeletons is a breath weapon blast or two. How many could survive to get close to her?

[Quietus]

Snark - I'd only have to prepare those the day BEFORE. The day of the fight, my only requirement would be figuring out the delivery system.

I'll definately have to take a look at some of those rays... you know, just in case.

Oh, and it's worth noting that even when I spend all my spell slots the day before preparing Unliving Weapon, I still have all of my spell slots as a 20th level wizard. I'm not exactly useless... I'm just not super-uber any more.

That's what I need to figure out, Oriong.

[oriong]

Hmmmm....well here's a thought.

A skeleton probably weighs something along the lines of 20% the normal human's mass. If you're dealing with a human of 150 pounds that's only 30 right there.

A bag of holding can hold up to 1,500 lbs and 250 cubic feet. That's enough mass to contain 500 human skeletons, but it may be short on the volume. If you want to make sure make them halfling or gnome skeletons.

A bag of holding turned inside out spills out all of it's contents immediately. Fill the bag with your skeleton-bombs, get to tiamat, unload. The skeletons will flood the immediate area. The problem then is setting off the bomb and getting out of the way.

[The_Snark]

Invisibility Sphere would work, or try for surprise. Surprise is a good idea anyway, of course.

I suppose you could use Telekinesis to hurl the skeletons at her. Actually, that sounds like a good delivery mechanism anyway; just choose light skeletons, like kobolds, and don't give them any armor or weapons.

[Quietus]

I was thinking about that. If I use the Shapechange->Choker idea, then I have two standard actions each turn. I'll have Fly from my Halfling Half-Fiend buddy. I can build these bombs, then go Quicken Teleport over Tiamat->Dump Bag (as a move), let skeletons drop 20 feet (hover 20 feet above myself), then as a standard action drop ... well, it doesn't matter. All the skeletons will be adjacent to one another. I set one off, they all go off. Blow a fireball... sure, the fireball wont' affect Tiamat. The 960d6 damage, however, will.


Odd question - animals frequently have a fractional hit die, correct? Could I get, say, rats? Each one is a Tiny animal, 1/4 HD - they weigh less, take up less space, and I get four times as many.

If that could work... anyone wanna take bets on how much damage I roll when I hit Tiamat with 3840d6 damage?


::Edit:: just did some number crunching. Using Mice as rats (smaller rats, so I imagine they'll have the same stats for D&D), and using the stats from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat), I'd go by 1 lb each, and if each is 6 inches by six inches, I can fit eight into each cubic foot. That means I can fit the max of 1,500 rat skeletons into a type four bag of holding. Dropping that, would result in 15,000d6 damage. Without epic spells, at level 20.

Anyone think Tiamat could survive that?

[ClericofPhwarrr]

If that could work... anyone wanna take bets on how much damage I roll when I hit Tiamat with 3840d6 damage?

Somewhere in the mid-low 13000s is most likely.


::Edit:: just did some number crunching. Using Mice as rats (smaller rats, so I imagine they'll have the same stats for D&D), and using the stats from here, I'd go by 1 lb each, and if each is 6 inches by six inches, I can fit eight into each cubic foot. That means I can fit the max of 1,500 rat skeletons into a type four bag of holding. Dropping that, would result in 15,000d6 damage. Without epic spells, at level 20.


And that's usually 52000+ damage.


I'd have a quickened mass teleport or similar spell to get the heck out of there immediately after dropping the bomb. The blast radius for that kind of explosion... yikes. Also, some way of ensuring that Tiamat doesn't also teleport away would be helpful.

[Thomas]

I'd say 13400, with very, very little variation. (I could calculate how little, but I can't be bothered to brush up on probability right now...)

[Quietus]

Blast radius is 10 feet. However, if I use the rat skeletons, each skeleton is no more than a half foot tall. Once they start to roll off of Tiamat's back, I light'em up. Even if she doesn't get hit with the full force of the blast, I suspect 15k+ damage is going to be enough to force a nasty Massive Damage save.

[oriong]

Does unliving Weapon allow SR? That may be a deal breaker there, but so long as you can boost your effective caster level high enough that you can get through on a roll of 20 then you're probably set, even 1/20th of that damage should be significant.

[Quietus]

It does, but you dont' cast it on Tiamat. I can easily overcome the will saves (you know, of the skeletons that won't resist it) and spell resistance (they have none). You cast the spell on the skeleton, and the skeleton explodes in a blast of destructive force when it dies. I'm not targetting Tiamat at all, so spell resistance, spell immunity, all that happy stuff - NONE of it matters. It's just a blast of destructive power in her area.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Firstly, Chronotyryns get 2 full-round actions per round, and have some neat abilities on top of that. Unless you don't have the FF, use those instead of Chokers.
Secondly, cheese is good, right now. Polymorph Any Object and Gate, specifically.
Polymorph some pebbles into Greater Stone Golems, some assorted other substances into Other Substance Golems, or an Awakened animal into the Tarrasque.
Other option: Gate in a Titan. Use the Titan to Gate in another Titan. Repeat.

EDIT: All the Polymorph Any Object uses described above should have Permanent duration.

[Quietus]

*Finally busts out his FF, jaw drops*

... I have a new love, and it's called the Chronotryryn.

Masters of time... awesome physical scores... sonic damage... spell .. HOLY CRAP! TELEPORT WITHOUT ERROR AT WILL???

... Why didn't I look at these earlier? Shapechange gives me access to their spell-like abilities, correct? What about their spells? And automatically gaining 10 ranks in ever knowledge skill???

Yeah... Definately gonna turn me into one of these.I could certainly use the resistances, and the hit points from the increased con (doubling my hit points? Yes please!)

Best part? Fluff says they're believed to be native to Acheron, which is Wee Jas's home plane. Being a cleric of Wee Jas, that only gives me bonus coolness points.

Haha... I'll have to talk to my DM about this. I'd certainly love to have the additional fly speed, as well.

Thanks!

[Bears With Lasers]

Shapechange "only" gives Supernatural abilities, not Spell-Like. But really, that should be PLENTY.

[Quietus]

Ahhh.. so I get everything except the spells and spell likes eh? Feh, entirely not worth it, then... [/sarcasm]. Heh.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Chronotryryn: Reason #4238 that Polymorph-style spells are broken, especially Shapechange. Although in this case I'm tempted to blame the importation of 3.0 material rather than Polymorph/Shapechange itself.

[Bears With Lasers]

Other Messed-Up Shapechange forms: the Zodar, for an XP-free Wish once/year. Theoretically, you can just keep changing into different Zodars and get more free Wishes.

If you have a familiar, share Shapechange wish them. That's an extra Wish per Zodar. Also, you can turn into a Choker and turn your familiar into, say, a Solar; you cast two spells a round, and the Solar-familiar picks up up and moves you. Combine with the Xorn Movement spell, shared with your familiar, and it can move you in and out of the ground.

[lordmarcoos]

Hmmmm....well here's a thought.

A skeleton probably weighs something along the lines of 20% the normal human's mass. If you're dealing with a human of 150 pounds that's only 30 right there.

You know, if you can get the skeles down to 10 pounds, you could sign them and cast explosive runes on them as well, just saying...

[Bears With Lasers]

Ahhh, yes, the Exploding Runes bomb.

1) Make some (CL 20) Exploding Runes. And by "some" I mean "about a freaking bajillion", on pieces of paper.
2) Somehow deliver them to a point near Tiamat. Make sure your friends are out of blast range.
3) Use a (CL 5) scroll of Dispel Magic to try and dispel them all with an area dispel. Fail.
4) They all explode, doing six freaking bajillion d6es of untyped damage.
5) Tiamat probably dies (unless she has Delay Death or something up; use Disjunction before/after to make sure).
6) ???
7) Profit.

[PinkysBrain]

You are in luck, Tiamat knows neither Foresight nor contingency ... so as long as your DM doesn't allow crafted contingent spells from CA you can get a surprise round on her.

[oriong]

Firstly, Chronotyryns get 2 full-round actions per round, and have some neat abilities on top of that. Unless you don't have the FF, use those instead of Chokers.
Secondly, cheese is good, right now. Polymorph Any Object and Gate, specifically.
Polymorph some pebbles into Greater Stone Golems, some assorted other substances into Other Substance Golems, or an Awakened animal into the Tarrasque.
Other option: Gate in a Titan. Use the Titan to Gate in another Titan. Repeat.

EDIT: All the Polymorph Any Object uses described above should have Permanent duration.

None of those polymorphs will work. You can't use polymorph to make constructs, and certainly not greater stone golems. You also can't use polymorph to change anything into the tarrasque.

[okpokalypse]

It does, but you dont' cast it on Tiamat. I can easily overcome the will saves (you know, of the skeletons that won't resist it) and spell resistance (they have none). You cast the spell on the skeleton, and the skeleton explodes in a blast of destructive force when it dies. I'm not targetting Tiamat at all, so spell resistance, spell immunity, all that happy stuff - NONE of it matters. It's just a blast of destructive power in her area.

1. The SR is to resist the Damage as well. The Will save I'll give you on affecting the undead, but the SR affects all aspects of the spell.

2. It's a 3rd Level Spell. She's Immune to all spells 5th level and lower (Unique Salient Divine Ability). You'd better Meta-Magic it to 6th Level or Higher if you want it to stand a chance to affect her.

3. Better Option - Melf's Unicorn Arrow (Maximized, Empowered, Twinned, Quickened, etc..) - whatever you can do to beef it up (It's a L3 Spell from PHB-II) would be great - just get it over 5th Level. It's untyped Damage, No Save, No SR. Maximized & Empowered it does 120 Damage. Twinned 240. Twice in a Round w/ Quicken, 480. If you Greater Celerity, you can do it twice more for 960 Damage. It's Ranged Touch, and her Touch AC is a 21 (Per Deity's & DemiGods) - which is quite easy to hit for an Epic PC. Your Range on it should also be 300'+, so you can likely get in two rounds of blasting before she closes on you.

The one drawback is her 10 mile blindsight. Getting the drop on her is nigh impossible.

[Quietus]

First, I'm not an Epic PC, so Twinned spells aren't available to me... and unfortunately, as was mentioned before, the stats given in Deities and Demigods are worthless. This fight is the end of the campaign... all of our characters are retiring after this, if they survive.

Okpocalypse; I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious, where does it say that she would get SR vs the blast? I would think that the skeletons are the recipients of the spell, but I can imagine that there's justification somewhere for her getting her SR. Is there somewhere that's written, that would back that up?

... And maybe I'll just have to write some exploding runes, just for kicks. Confetti skelebombs!

[okpokalypse]

First, I'm not an Epic PC, so Twinned spells aren't available to me... and unfortunately, as was mentioned before, the stats given in Deities and Demigods are worthless. This fight is the end of the campaign... all of our characters are retiring after this, if they survive.

Twin Spell isn't Epic. Just another Meta-Magic feat. Chances are, as a Necro, you probably wouldn't have it.


Okpocalypse; I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious, where does it say that she would get SR vs the blast? I would think that the skeletons are the recipients of the spell, but I can imagine that there's justification somewhere for her getting her SR. Is there somewhere that's written, that would back that up?

... And maybe I'll just have to write some exploding runes, just for kicks. Confetti skelebombs!

I'll try to keep this brief. Here's why I believe the SR is applied multiple times...

It's both a Targetted Effect and Area Effect spell. The Initial part, the Targetted Effect upon the Undead, allows a Will Save and SR to resist, which I don't think anyone would argue. The Area Effect part however should allow a save for the following reasons:

1. The Spell has a Duration. It's not Instantaneous. As the Spell needs to be in effect for the Detonation to occur, it's a spell trigger to complete the spell's effect.

2. Per the Area Spells section in the DMG (subsection of Spell Resistance):

"Spell Resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell's area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself."

Now I understand that the debate exists in saying, "Is the damage magical? Or is just the detonation magical and the damage a side effect?"

In that case, if that were true, I'd think Explosive Runes would also have no SR - cause it's essenatially the same thing. But it does allow for SR. You cast it on something, and it blows up when triggered - but those affected by it's completion get to check their SR to resist the spell's effects.

[Quietus]

That's a good point. It's a hard call to make... and I'm clearly biased. I could probably harass Tiamat a bit beforehand without too much trouble; Lower Spell Resistance, as I cast it, would be very likely to work on her, and Assay Spell Resistance will certainly be in my repertoire. That effectively gives me +25 to my bonus to break her SR. Since this is a Necromancy spell, my Necrotic Power ability applies, bringing me up to caster level 24, with a +2 bonus from my Robes of the Archmagi - so in effect, I'm adding +51 to my caster level check versus Tiamat's spell resistance. With any luck, that'll have a chance of affecting her.

Either way, I'll have to look into this further... and let my DM make his call on it if I can't find something that makes it 100% solid one direction or another. Thanks for pointing that out, even if I don't much like it. =P

[okpokalypse]

That's a good point. It's a hard call to make... and I'm clearly biased. I could probably harass Tiamat a bit beforehand without too much trouble; Lower Spell Resistance, as I cast it, would be very likely to work on her, and Assay Spell Resistance will certainly be in my repertoire. That effectively gives me +25 to my bonus to break her SR. Since this is a Necromancy spell, my Necrotic Power ability applies, bringing me up to caster level 24, with a +2 bonus from my Robes of the Archmagi - so in effect, I'm adding +51 to my caster level check versus Tiamat's spell resistance. With any luck, that'll have a chance of affecting her.

Either way, I'll have to look into this further... and let my DM make his call on it if I can't find something that makes it 100% solid one direction or another. Thanks for pointing that out, even if I don't much like it. =P

No problem...

One thing though. I don't know about your DM, but any DMs I've dealt with that went towards the Epic-range where we're out in the outer planes harassing Avatars and Lesser Deities always kind of required the same approach.

Blunt Force that bypasses SR/DR & Dimensional Anchor.

The reason that was the case is that things out there tend to be too damn powerful, and their survivability is immense. Plus, DMs look at these things and completely meta-game against you because, well, they're Gods! :smallbiggrin:

If you want to throw a wrench in his plans, conscript 10 L12 Wizards (Conjurers) with Melf's Unicorn Arrow, Arcane Thesis, Maximize Spell and Empower Spell. Yeah, it'd be EXPENSIVE - but it'd work. Their L6 Spell would be enough to get past Tiamat's Spell Invulnerability, they'd each be 4-arrow spells doing 4d8+32 (Max & Empower) = 96 Damage. So 10 of em, assuming they land their ranged touch, do 960 Damage.

That spell is brutal because it's No Save, No SR.

Then, after they do your dirty work, Detonate your undead around em :).

Muhahahaha

[Quietus]

Haha... wow. No save, no SR? That's pretty brutal... it's kinda scary to imagine that ten level 12 wizards could pull that off. Hell, at that rate, I'm going to have to specifically look at that spell myself; If nothing else I can prepare it Quickened a few times for a few extra shots at the big T. I do get two swift actions a round as a Chronotryryn, and all my spells are automatically maximized. THat's 128 straight unresistable damage each turn, and I add +20 to my touch attacks. That's pretty awesome.

[oriong]

Keep in mind that Maximize Spell and Empower spell do not increase effective spell level. The spell is still treated as 3rd level for purposes of saves and defenses and so on. You need Heighten Spell, that's the only one that will do it. Which unfortunately means you can't maximize and empower it, so it won't work so well.

[Quietus]

ALL my spells will be automatically maximized thanks to my Incense of Meditation, so that's not an issue. Unfortunately, the only metamagic feat I have is Quicken.

I'm hoping and praying that at the very least, even if we can't get her divine rank stripped, we get her divine abilities stripped. Doing that would allow me to hit her with spells of those low levels... after we remove the Globe of Invulnerability I fully expect her to put up.

[Bears With Lasers]

Disjunction automatically removes spells--your tiefling's job will basically be spamming it and not dying.

Oh, yeah--not dying should be a big priority. Stay as far away form her as you can, use magic to make as many party members as possible immune to as many things as you can (Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Spell Immunity for specific pesky spells--if she casts Unholy Word or something, you're no-save dead unless you're immune).

[Quietus]

We're all going to be working on a lot of things... we're all walking in there with a PILE of protections on us from my character Keldarin. Protection from Spells, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance (though I doubt it'll be all that effective), all that happy stuff. I'll need to decide which spells to grant us Immunity to though.

[Kesnit]

We're all going to be working on a lot of things... we're all walking in there with a PILE of protections on us from my character Keldarin. Protection from Spells, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance (though I doubt it'll be all that effective), all that happy stuff. I'll need to decide which spells to grant us Immunity to though.

Don't forget Energy Immunity. She does have dragon heads and each breathe different stuff.

[Quietus]

I'm fully aware. I know poison and elemental energy won't work on her, that's why I'm not worried about preparing Delayed Blast Fireball.

[the_tick_rules]

i'm someonehas mentioned energy resistance for tiamats breathe weapons already. there's a 9th level wizard spell in exalted deeds that blinds all evil outsiders with no saving roll or SR. If they stack (and by my reading they do) a starmantle robe (an item or can be summoned as a spell in BOE), retributive amulet plus a ring of blinking forms a powerful defense. anything to up your reflex save would be good. greater spell immunity to classic spells would be good.

but all things considered i think a retreat or avoiding conflict would be better. if tiamats divine power is shut off you may be able to fight her kinda effectively, to a draw perhaps, but i can't see a defeat. but i don't know if another deity could even do that at all. otherwise forget it, tiamat as a level 10 god would be way beyond you. maybe you could get an orb of annihilation or maybe even summon some creature, give it 2 bags of holding, teleport it near tiamat and tell it to stuff one inside the other. oh and tiamat has a great wyrm of every evil color around her all the time. you'll have to seperate her from those or you got no chance.

[The_Snark]

Hmmm, that last plan just reminded me of a good way to defeat her, but any plan that hinges upon the acquisition of a Sphere of Annihilation probably isn't a good one.

Wait... you've got Wish, right?

Kidding. Wishing for artifacts is not likely to go over all that well with the DM.

If you need plain damaging spells, Orb of Force and Orb of Sound allow no SR and deal force and sound damage, respectively. Might want to have a few prepared as backup, in case other strategies don't work.

[Quietus]

I have several Wishes and Miracles at my disposal; Since this is the final fight these characters will be involved in, I'm willing to blow as much experience as it takes.

As for backing off.... we COULD. But we're committed to it now. We've gathered up a number of allies, which should help offset the evil dragons we expect Tiamat to bring. If she has a pile of dragons with her, one of my first actions (after the miracle to shut off her power and the shapechange to gain an extra action from my new shape) will be to quicken teleport into the middle of them, blow a Wail of the Banshee (SOME of them will fail...), then standard teleport out. If they're closely enough packed for Wail to work effectively, that is.

[Dragonmuncher]

Graft on a Head of Vecna, and summon in a few gazebos. Done deal.

[Ninja Chocobo]

None of those polymorphs will work. You can't use polymorph to make constructs, and certainly not greater stone golems. You also can't use polymorph to change anything into the tarrasque.
I don't see why not, the spell description specifically mentions the possibility of turning a pebble into a human, so why not a construct? In fact, it never says in either spell (both Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object, which are two different spells) that you can't use it on constructs.
By the way, I'm reading from the SRD. Maybe it's been errata'd without the SRD changing.

[oriong]

Because Polymorph any Object works as polymorph (except as noted), and polymorph does not allow you to change anything into a construct, undead or elemental unless they are already of that type. And an object is not a construct.

What's more, Polymorph cannot grant the form of a creature with more than 15 HD (the greater stone golem and the tarrasque both qualify).

Now, interestingly enough although Polymorph Any Object does distinctly imply that an object can be transformed into a creature this is not technically possible by RAW since the spell only allows the subject to assume the form of a creature whose HD are equal to the caster's or the subject's, whichever is lower. Objects have no HD at all.

A fair interpretation would assume objects use the caster's level instead of their own non-existant HD.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Bah, you're right. I hate it when other people win.
Well, if you can't use constructs or the Tarrasque, then maybe you can use this. (http://www.jonnydigital.com/talensforge/creatures/holy-grail-rabbit.php)
Then you, make it bigger, or something.

[Were-Sandwich]

DISCLAIMER: Not my trick, nicked it off someone else and use it at every opportunity

What you need, is some plane with no air. I think there's one. If not, genesis one. You said yourself you don't expect to continue after this fight, so it doesn't matter about the XP cost. On this airless plane, construct a glass cylinder, 'bout 3ft high and 2ft wide, then use some gravity altering magic like Reverse Gravity, or some of those spells over on Sean K Reynolds site, to make it so that gravity in the tube goes from one end to the other, no matter which way you turn it. This is to ensure the device doesn't go off to early.

Next, permanency a telepotation circle so that stuff falling "down" the tube is teleported back to the "top", creating an infinite falling loop. As it speeds up, it will pass Terminal Velocity, because of the lackof air (I think, don't quote me on this), building up to almost light speed. There are several applications for this:

Wait until its Schwartzeiled (sp?) Radius exceeds it size, creating a blackhole centered on the Device.

Wait until it reaches light speed, the lob it through a planar portal to right outside Tiamats house. The glass will smash, causing atmosphere to flood in, causing unimaginably large amounts of air friction and deceleration in the coin, causing an explosion so big it should reduce most the layer to superheated plasma.

I prefer the first one, for style, but the second is more reliadble. If you want, you could give the device to a flying construct with a plane-shift device of some sort, and create a cruise-missile. Nuclear-like.

[Arbitrarity]

*catgirls die*

And there is no terminal velocity in vacuum, it varies depending on gravity and atmosphere.

Schwartzchild?

[Were-Sandwich]

Might be. The one where it collapses in on itself if it gets too big. If you can somehow keep the air out of a line about 1ft wide for a microsecond (possibly through some wierd telportation effect), you could shoot the coin at people, as it travels along the vacuum you've created, then hits air at the other end, going kaboom.

[Quietus]

Somehow, I don't think my DM would appreciate me bringing real-world style physics into this... even if I had the time to research Genesis, and wait for it to get large enough (after all, we've only got another 6 days before the world goes to hell - it'll take me nine weeks to research Gensis, and another 3 days for Genesis to get large enough to house this object).

Neat idea, though.

Polymorphing small objects into much larger objects isn't a bad idea... I'm sure Keldarin can come up with a few coppers to sprinkle over her and enlarge, if he doesn't feel like getting rocks. If my confetti skelebombs don't work, or don't work well enough to kill her, we'll see how the polymorphing coins works, I suppose.

[Tor the Fallen]

Any update on how things are progressing/progressed?

[Were-Sandwich]

I've had an idea for the copper peice bomb: Control lightning, r whatever its called.

Think about it. When lightning strikes it temporarily creates a small cylinder of vacuum around its path.This is what cause tuinder (the air rushes back to fill the gap, causing a big bang). Now, if we can time the release of the copper peice with the lightning strike, we could send the peice down the vacuum, using it to deliver the payload to the deired area. Obviously, a much lower falling speed than the Plasma Bomb version would be required, but you could level cities this way.

[Tor the Fallen]

Any update on how things are progressing/progressed?