Dealing with high Will saves as an Illusionist

[Heliomance]

I'm currently playing a Killer Gnome build. We're level 10, I'm a Gnome Focused Illusionist 5 (with RSLs)/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 3. I've banned Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy. I've pumped my spell DCs as hard as I can - I've got DC 19 on my first level Illusion spells. Unfortunately, it's looking like it's going to be an Aberration heavy campaign, and they have irritatingly good Will saves. Our last two fights were against a Truly Horrid Umber Hulk and a Mind Flayer, and they made every single save I threw at them.

How can I stay relevant against high Will opponents? I have a couple of spells that target Fort, but not my best ones, and Aberrations have good Fort as well I think. I have no spells targeting Ref at all.

I took Spellgifted, so I have +1 CL for Illusion and -1CL for all the other schools. I have -2 CL for Transmutation, because of Gnome Illusionist. I deliberately wanted to build a character that uses Illusion to the near-exclusion of all else. High Will saves are a problem, though. Thoughts?

[Ansem]

Spell focus line + Shadow Adept to boost DC's a ****load.

[John Longarrow]

Use Illusions they don't interact with until its too late.

The illusion of a wall with your party behind it can be a great way to surprise anyone.
Illusion of a solid floor over a pit is nasty.
Illusion of 4 adventurers preparing for battle in a spot that gives you an advantage is good.
Illusion of a door on a blank wall can throw off enemies also.

The trick is to use illusions as battle field control rather than as damage dealer. If you can get the enemy to react to an illusion without interacting with it, WIN.

The bad part is when you need illusions to interact with monsters. That's much harder.

NOTE: The Illusion of a gold dragon coming through a portal should get EVERYONE'S attention, even if its just a round or two. This can be used to get away or maneuver to attack.

[Gildedragon]

Boost the pseudoreality % past 100
Making the save becomes a problem not the solution -evil cackle-
Ask your DM about willingly lowering pseudoreality afterwards

[Hiro Quester]

Mindfog can be a very useful (enchantment) spell here. If you can pump up the DC on that spell, then all who fail the will save for that spell are -10 on all further will saves (and WIS checks) the next 2d6 rounds after they emerge from the fog (which lasts up to 30 minutes).

Alternatively, make friends with a bard (or take a level, but the prereqs for the feat are high). The bard feat Doomspeak is almost absurdly useful in such situations. In the right hands, it has a high DC (10 + character level + CHA modifier), and makes the target -10 on all saves, skill checks, attacks and damage rolls for one round.

In combination, these would make your illusions practically unstoppable, for one crucial target, at least).

[Rebel7284]

Spell Enchancer [SpC] may help a little bit.

There is also using no-save spells. Can you tell us what feats you have so far?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Should have gone Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage with Chains of Disbelief and Shadow Shaper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants), since Master Specialist gives you +2 DC to every illusion that allows a will save to disbelieve.

Should have kept Conjuration and banned Enchantment. Keeping Enchantment just means you have even more spells that creatures with high Will saves will resist.

You need the Enhanced Shadow Reality feat from Dragon 325, which makes your shadow illusions 20% more real for creatures that make the save to disbelieve them.

You should have Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, and be using Heightened Silent Image for all of your shadow illusions. That means Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Silent Image (or just Ability Focus: Shadow Illusion) will add +2 DC to every one of those.

Shadow Weave Magic in PGtF, and a dip into Shadow Adept in that same book, would be beneficial to your illusions but it does have a few drawbacks for certain schools.

At your current level with all of the above except the Shadow Weave stuff, your shadow illusions will look as follows:

1st level spell slot: 2nd level illusion, emulates a 1st level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +1 caster level, DC 18+Int, 40% real on a save.
2nd level spell slot: 3rd level illusion, emulates a 2nd level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +2 caster level, DC 19+Int, 50% real on a save.
3rd level spell slot: 4th level illusion, emulates a 3rd level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +3 caster level, DC 20+Int, 60% real on a save.
4th level spell slot: 5th level illusion, emulates a 4th level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +4 caster level, DC 21+Int, 70% real on a save.
5th level spell slot: 6th level illusion, emulates a 5th level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +5 caster level, DC 22+Int, 80% real on a save.

At level 12, those % real numbers all go up by +20% due to Shadowcraft Mage 5. Your shadow illusions cast from 6th level spell slots will be 110% real if they make a save!
Be sure to get some sandals made from stone slabs so you'll always be standing on stone and always be able to benefit from Earth Spell.

[Gildedragon]

Shape sand is probably the coolest thing you can line your shoes with.

[Heliomance]

Should have gone Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage with Chains of Disbelief and Shadow Shaper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants), since Master Specialist gives you +2 DC to every illusion that allows a will save to disbelieve.

Should have kept Conjuration and banned Enchantment. Keeping Enchantment just means you have even more spells that creatures with high Will saves will resist.

You need the Enhanced Shadow Reality feat from Dragon 325, which makes your shadow illusions 20% more real for creatures that make the save to disbelieve them.

You should have Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, and be using Heightened Silent Image for all of your shadow illusions. That means Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Silent Image (or just Ability Focus: Shadow Illusion) will add +2 DC to every one of those.

Shadow Weave Magic in PGtF, and a dip into Shadow Adept in that same book, would be beneficial to your illusions but it does have a few drawbacks for certain schools.

At your current level with all of the above except the Shadow Weave stuff, your shadow illusions will look as follows:

1st level spell slot: 2nd level illusion, emulates a 1st level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +1 caster level, DC 18+Int, 40% real on a save.
2nd level spell slot: 3rd level illusion, emulates a 2nd level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +2 caster level, DC 19+Int, 50% real on a save.
3rd level spell slot: 4th level illusion, emulates a 3rd level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +3 caster level, DC 20+Int, 60% real on a save.
4th level spell slot: 5th level illusion, emulates a 4th level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +4 caster level, DC 21+Int, 70% real on a save.
5th level spell slot: 6th level illusion, emulates a 5th level evocation or conjuration (creation or summoning) spell at +5 caster level, DC 22+Int, 80% real on a save.

At level 12, those % real numbers all go up by +20% due to Shadowcraft Mage 5. Your shadow illusions cast from 6th level spell slots will be 110% real if they make a save!
Be sure to get some sandals made from stone slabs so you'll always be standing on stone and always be able to benefit from Earth Spell.

I have Chains of Disbelief, why would I want Shadow Shaper? It doesn't give anything useful until level 10, and that requires 10 levels of Wizard. It's also incompatible with the Gnome Illusionist sub levels as they both replace the level 5 feat.

My feats are Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Heighten Spell and Earth Sense. I'm getting Earth Spell at level 12. I'm not entirely sure how many feats you're expecting me to have, but it seems to be more than I actually do. I was planning on finishing Shadowcraft Mage then going back to Shadowcrafter for plenty of quasireality. I may pick up Ability Focus at level 15.

[Gildedragon]

Isn't School Mastery (alt feature from dragon mag) better than Chains of Disbelief if you're going for high PseudoReality?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have Chains of Disbelief, why would I want Shadow Shaper? It doesn't give anything useful until level 10, and that requires 10 levels of Wizard. It's also incompatible with the Gnome Illusionist sub levels as they both replace the level 5 feat.

My feats are Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Heighten Spell and Earth Sense. I'm getting Earth Spell at level 12. I'm not entirely sure how many feats you're expecting me to have, but it seems to be more than I actually do. I was planning on finishing Shadowcraft Mage then going back to Shadowcrafter for plenty of quasireality. I may pick up Ability Focus at level 15.

Two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) will give you two extra feats. They're fairly standard in a feat-hungry build such as this one.

You shouldn't even have five levels of Wizard, you should have gone Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage. In that case Shadow Shaper trades Scribe Scroll to gain Hide as a class skill, which you need ranks in for Shadowcraft Mage. Even with Shadow Shaper, the Gnome Illusionist 5 sub level would replace what you otherwise would have gained at Wizard 5 for Extended Illusions, as that's what substitution levels do, they replace an entire class level. It doesn't matter if Wizard 5 gives you a bonus feat or the Shadow Shaper ability, whatever would have appeared at that level is replaced by what appears at the Gnome Illusionist 5 sub level. Substitution levels don't say you need to have been gaining the default class feature in the first place to trade it for that substitution level, it specifies that the substitution level replaces the standard class features so someone doesn't try to keep both.



Isn't School Mastery (alt feature from dragon mag) better than Chains of Disbelief if you're going for high PseudoReality?

It took a bit of searching, but School Mastery is in Dragon 357 p89, it replaces your familiar and for an illusionist it makes all of your Illusion (Shadow) spells 10% more real for creatures that make the save to disbelieve. Definitely an ideal choice for this type of character.

[Heliomance]

Two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) will give you two extra feats. They're fairly standard in a feat-hungry build such as this one.
That requires flaws to be allowed by the DM. This is not the case, and should not be simply assumed for practical optimisation.


You shouldn't even have five levels of Wizard, you should have gone Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage. In that case Shadow Shaper trades Scribe Scroll to gain Hide as a class skill, which you need ranks in for Shadowcraft Mage. Even with Shadow Shaper, the Gnome Illusionist 5 sub level would replace what you otherwise would have gained at Wizard 5 for Extended Illusions, as that's what substitution levels do, they replace an entire class level. It doesn't matter if Wizard 5 gives you a bonus feat or the Shadow Shaper ability, whatever would have appeared at that level is replaced by what appears at the Gnome Illusionist 5 sub level. Substitution levels don't say you need to have been gaining the default class feature in the first place to trade it for that substitution level, it specifies that the substitution level replaces the standard class features so someone doesn't try to keep both.




It took a bit of searching, but School Mastery is in Dragon 357 p89, it replaces your familiar and for an illusionist it makes all of your Illusion (Shadow) spells 10% more real for creatures that make the save to disbelieve. Definitely an ideal choice for this type of character.

Chains of Disbelief replaces your familiar, you can't replace it twice. And I did consider Master Specialist, but decided that Shadowcrafter was more useful, with its 20% quasireality and other goodies. I didn't know of the existence of Enchanced Shadow Reality, but I don't think my DM is inclined to allow Dragon Magazine anyway.

As for replacing Scribe Scroll, it's an incredibly useful feat and I would always think very, very hard before trading it away. It raises your versatility so much.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Chains of Disbelief replaces your familiar, you can't replace it twice. And I did consider Master Specialist, but decided that Shadowcrafter was more useful, with its 20% quasireality and other goodies. I didn't know of the existence of Enchanced Shadow Reality, but I don't think my DM is inclined to allow Dragon Magazine anyway.

I meant School Mastery would be better to have instead of Chains of Disbelief, after having looked at it.

Shadowcrafter 2 only gives you +10% when mimicking Conjuration (Creation and Summoning) spells, you won't get +10% to your Evocations until you're level 13, and the +20% won't come until level 16 and 17. Master Specialist gives you +2 to all the the DCs, including the saves vs the spells you're copying with those shadow illusions, such as a Fort save for a Shadow Illusion Stinking Cloud. You can still get eight levels of Shadowcrafter by 20th level with Master Specialist.

[Pilo]

You may use spells without save like Legion of Sentinel (Lvl3, PHB2), which can combo with Slapping Hand (Lvl2, Arcane compendium) or Bigby's Slapping Hand(Lvl2, Miniatures handbook, Complete Mage) but you can not cast it.

[Heliomance]

On reflection, you're right about Master Specialist. Unfortunately, it's a bit late now. And it doesn't seem worth sinking 4 levels into it at this point, especially as I already have Greater Spell Focus.

[Dunditschia]

Spell focus line + Shadow Adept to boost DC's a ****load.

How does Shadow Adept boost DC's?
The free shadow feats are nice, but I don't see much else of use in the class to help with abbarations.