RedMage125
2014-05-14, 02:43 PM
So...a lot of people on the boards here suggest that a DN should acquire the necropolitan template if possible, making them undead. And it's a good idea. But, they also say that such a DN would "need" to get a true resurrection by level 20, because otherwise, they wouldn't get the "lich transformation", because the lich template can only be applied to living things.
I say shenanigans, because the lvl 20 DN capstone ability DOES NOT GRANT THE LICH TEMPLATE FROM THE MONSTER MANUAL.
This is my post copied from another thread, and I came to this realization when I was looking stuff up to reply to that. In it, they were discussing whether or not a DN20 also had to take the LA from the lich template. So, for clarity purposes, the quote from the other thread starts and ends with a bunch of asteriks.
**********************
For everyone's consideration, here's a few points to consider, going by the qualities of the lich template:
The lich template has a fear aura, so does DN.
The lich has a paralyzing touch, DN does not.
The lich has DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, DN has DR 8/bludgeoning and magic.
Lich gets +2 to INT, WIS, and CHA, DN does not.
Lich has a +5 Natural Armor bonus, DN has +0
Lich has +4 Turn Resistance, DN has +0
Lich has immunity to Cold, Electricity, and Polymorph, DN is not.
Now, on top of all of that, I want to point out a little detail in the HoH quote others have been posting. It says that the DN "gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual)". Note something. They reference page 317, and NOT page 165, which is the MM entry for lich.
I think at this point that we should all be able to agree that, according to Rules as Written, a DN does not gain the lich template.
Now, we can argue from here to Baator about Rules as Intended, because we've all got different ideas about that. But I do believe, personally, that RAI was that DN's do NOT gain the lich template on page 165 of the Monster Manual. Why? Well, BECAUSE of what has been pointed out about the dragon disciple (as another transformative template class), which explicitly grants the remaining stat boosts that had not already been handed out by the PrC. Although a lvl 10 Dragon Disciple has more than paid off a +3 LA with 10 levels of a crappy class. DN does NOT gradually grant lich-like powers, except for fear aura, and some DR, about half of what the template grants. Even at the capstone, DN refers us to the Monster Manual, and NOT the lich entry (which includes all the undead info on page 317 in it), but only to page 317. Why direct us to the book that has the lich template in it, and not direct us to the template if that was the intent?
If a DM is going to grant the template, a few things are worth looking at, namely, does the LA kick in? Well, at level 20, a +2 boost to some stats that a DN likely doesn't use, and one he does is a drop in the bucket. Any lvl 20 DN should have a CHA of 30 or higher or be shot in the face with a hammer. An additional +2 is a small advantage. +5 Natural Armor for free is nice, and would be worth a significant LA at low levels, but maybe not at 20. Turn resistance is something that every undead PC is going to want, and +4 means that a level 20 cleric (assuming regular not-anti-undead-focused build) must roll pretty high on the initial turn check to even have a chance, and that a level 19 or lower cleric CANNOT turn you. Paralyzing touch may not seem like much, given the DN's existing Charnel/Scabrous/Enervating Touch abilities, but it's at-will, and the duration of paralysis is PERMANENT, the save DC is CHA-based. That means that a 20 DN lich, even if he runs out of spells, has an at-will option to try and paralyze ANYTHING, with a save DC over 30 (10 base, plus 10 for half-HD, plus minimum 10 for CHA mod). And then there's flat-out immunity to Cold, Electricity, and Polymorph. As a DM myself, I would rule that at level 20, those things are not worth the full +4 LA, but they're enough to warrant SOME kind of LA, maybe +2.
Of note here is that the lich's phylactery and the way it works is NOT a feature of the lich template. Nothing in the lich stat bock or template stat block entry even mentions "phylactery", not even under Special Qualities. The ability to return to life with a phylactery is a feature of the phylactery, not a feature of the lich template, so a lvl 20 DN (who specifically acquires a phylactery JUST LIKE A LICH), gets all the benefits of it, without needing the lich template.
This means that all the people who suggest making your DN a necropolitan are right, that's a good idea, and gives the DN undeath earlier than lvl 20. But most of them assume that when you hit 20, you'll need an ally to kill you, and cast true resurrection, because the lich template must be added to a living creature. This is flawed logic, because if the DN is not granting the lich template from the MM page 165, then the DN need not go through the whole true resurrection process. The capstone ability of DN becomes gaining the phylactery and all of its benefits.
*********************
So, what it boils down to is that Necropolitan is a GREAT idea for a DN. And no need to have it all undone once reaching level 20. Because at level 20, you'd basically just be getting necropolitan again, plus a phylactery. And nothing in the DN entry says that you must be alive to make your phylactery. So go on, be free. Grab necropolitan early in your DN career, and at level 20, get a phylactery and hide it well.
I say shenanigans, because the lvl 20 DN capstone ability DOES NOT GRANT THE LICH TEMPLATE FROM THE MONSTER MANUAL.
This is my post copied from another thread, and I came to this realization when I was looking stuff up to reply to that. In it, they were discussing whether or not a DN20 also had to take the LA from the lich template. So, for clarity purposes, the quote from the other thread starts and ends with a bunch of asteriks.
**********************
For everyone's consideration, here's a few points to consider, going by the qualities of the lich template:
The lich template has a fear aura, so does DN.
The lich has a paralyzing touch, DN does not.
The lich has DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, DN has DR 8/bludgeoning and magic.
Lich gets +2 to INT, WIS, and CHA, DN does not.
Lich has a +5 Natural Armor bonus, DN has +0
Lich has +4 Turn Resistance, DN has +0
Lich has immunity to Cold, Electricity, and Polymorph, DN is not.
Now, on top of all of that, I want to point out a little detail in the HoH quote others have been posting. It says that the DN "gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual)". Note something. They reference page 317, and NOT page 165, which is the MM entry for lich.
I think at this point that we should all be able to agree that, according to Rules as Written, a DN does not gain the lich template.
Now, we can argue from here to Baator about Rules as Intended, because we've all got different ideas about that. But I do believe, personally, that RAI was that DN's do NOT gain the lich template on page 165 of the Monster Manual. Why? Well, BECAUSE of what has been pointed out about the dragon disciple (as another transformative template class), which explicitly grants the remaining stat boosts that had not already been handed out by the PrC. Although a lvl 10 Dragon Disciple has more than paid off a +3 LA with 10 levels of a crappy class. DN does NOT gradually grant lich-like powers, except for fear aura, and some DR, about half of what the template grants. Even at the capstone, DN refers us to the Monster Manual, and NOT the lich entry (which includes all the undead info on page 317 in it), but only to page 317. Why direct us to the book that has the lich template in it, and not direct us to the template if that was the intent?
If a DM is going to grant the template, a few things are worth looking at, namely, does the LA kick in? Well, at level 20, a +2 boost to some stats that a DN likely doesn't use, and one he does is a drop in the bucket. Any lvl 20 DN should have a CHA of 30 or higher or be shot in the face with a hammer. An additional +2 is a small advantage. +5 Natural Armor for free is nice, and would be worth a significant LA at low levels, but maybe not at 20. Turn resistance is something that every undead PC is going to want, and +4 means that a level 20 cleric (assuming regular not-anti-undead-focused build) must roll pretty high on the initial turn check to even have a chance, and that a level 19 or lower cleric CANNOT turn you. Paralyzing touch may not seem like much, given the DN's existing Charnel/Scabrous/Enervating Touch abilities, but it's at-will, and the duration of paralysis is PERMANENT, the save DC is CHA-based. That means that a 20 DN lich, even if he runs out of spells, has an at-will option to try and paralyze ANYTHING, with a save DC over 30 (10 base, plus 10 for half-HD, plus minimum 10 for CHA mod). And then there's flat-out immunity to Cold, Electricity, and Polymorph. As a DM myself, I would rule that at level 20, those things are not worth the full +4 LA, but they're enough to warrant SOME kind of LA, maybe +2.
Of note here is that the lich's phylactery and the way it works is NOT a feature of the lich template. Nothing in the lich stat bock or template stat block entry even mentions "phylactery", not even under Special Qualities. The ability to return to life with a phylactery is a feature of the phylactery, not a feature of the lich template, so a lvl 20 DN (who specifically acquires a phylactery JUST LIKE A LICH), gets all the benefits of it, without needing the lich template.
This means that all the people who suggest making your DN a necropolitan are right, that's a good idea, and gives the DN undeath earlier than lvl 20. But most of them assume that when you hit 20, you'll need an ally to kill you, and cast true resurrection, because the lich template must be added to a living creature. This is flawed logic, because if the DN is not granting the lich template from the MM page 165, then the DN need not go through the whole true resurrection process. The capstone ability of DN becomes gaining the phylactery and all of its benefits.
*********************
So, what it boils down to is that Necropolitan is a GREAT idea for a DN. And no need to have it all undone once reaching level 20. Because at level 20, you'd basically just be getting necropolitan again, plus a phylactery. And nothing in the DN entry says that you must be alive to make your phylactery. So go on, be free. Grab necropolitan early in your DN career, and at level 20, get a phylactery and hide it well.