E6 Marshal: Making it a Tier 3 class

[Tvtyrant]

So I am trying to update the Marshal concept to a tier 3 character (high floor, moderate ceiling goal.)

I'm thinking about leaving its skills and proficiencies where they are and keeping the minor auras. Then porting in the Dragon Shaman's auras as a second set (Marshal can have two active at a time, one from each list) and then Divine Bard spell list and casting.

Basically we get a middle of the road fighter type with beneficial auras and some good but not terrific casting.

Edit: This is E6 only, so they would get 1 3rd level spell by level 6.

[Seerow]

One quick fix for Marshall I saw that I liked was switching around the bonuses for Major and Minor auras. So major auras get based off cha modifier (and thus can be rather potent), while the minor auras provide a flat predetermined bonus to minor things. Personally for an E6 specific variant I'd accelerate the progression some, giving a +3 by level 6, and give a capstone feat that allows either a second major aura to be projected (for a more flexible/powerful option), or allows you to pick one specific major aura and have it always project it in addition to your other auras (for a power boost that doesn't have the same level of flexibility).

Personally I'm not a fan of tossing divine bard casting on the Marshal. It just doesn't fit the kit (I would however consider giving the Paladin spells per day like the Divine Bard, if you're looking at Paladins as well). If the Auras alone aren't enough, then I'd play up skills and combat capabilities some more. Some options I have offhand include:

-6+int modifier skills per level
-All knowledge and social skills as class skills
-Maneuver progression, possibly delayed, drawing from Iron Heart and White Raven
-Some reflavored version of Turning combined with some reflavored Divine Feats. Knowledge Devotion, Law Devotion, Protection Devotion, and probably lots of others I'm forgetting all fit perfectly mechanically with the Marshall's shtick, but are currently locked exclusively to divine casters.
-Access to some bonus feats he can share with allies for limited periods of time

[Dienekes]

You see, the weird thing to me is. There already is a middle of the road fighter type tier 3 class with Bard casting. It's called the Bard. It seems odd to just make another one.

But whatever, this is about your creation, not my prejudices. I think Bard spell list alone would probably make a class tier 3, assuming it has supporting splats. My only real qualm is, it doesn't seem to actually be a fighter. E6 Marshal gives it, essentially, Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (woo...), and Grant Move Action 1/day. The auras are nice, but a bit boring. Essentially, once this guy gets done casting it's spells it doesn't seem capable of doing much. It just stands around getting others benefits. There's no real benefit for it to go into combat, with average bab and d8 hit points and no abilities to mitigate that (like Sneak Attack) it really just gets in the way.

So, sure it'll be a tier 3, but it seems like it'll be a boring one, and everything it can do, a Bard can do better.

[ddude987]

I like the idea of adding bard spells and dragon shaman aura. Its a simple fix that gets the job done. Potential problems I see with the dragon shaman auras is that it feels like it has a lot of overlap with some minor auras. Marshal can already bump initiative and various skill checks. This might make diplomacy abuse a concern, just something to watch out for.

As to other options, maybe they don't need spellcasting. Adding tome, focusing on maybe white raven, would increase versatility. Full BaB would also improve them a lot if it is e6 as they get an iterative.

[Tvtyrant]

I see your point on the Bard already being in this role, but without tremendous optimizing and splat support it is not very good. The Bard has a low floor and a high ceiling, and my players are not great at optimizing. Making a Marshal-Bard grants them better HP, armor and proficiencies along with an easier subsystem.

I don't really see the issue with the Bardic casting myself; due to its design the Bard has an extremely low floor but a high ceiling, so my particular players fall apart when using it. Giving it an easier subsystem and more HP/armor is trying to pull up its ease of use for them. Also bards involve a lot of Dio references and genre shattering character concepts (Warforged "heavy metal bards..."

The Marshal being a buffer as much as a fighter type, it might be best to make it more like a Swordsage with its Initiator abilities, and drawing primarily from White Raven. That would be pretty cool actually.

I would be happy to make it an Initiator (worst subsystem name ever) but I feel like it would be hard to make it feel that differentiated from a Crusader, and it loses a lot of the SAD effect that auras + casting has.

Giving him the equivalent of the divine feats is an interesting idea, I need to look into that.

Edit: For better phrasing.