Looking for a Species w/ Strength and Intelligence

[Bugworlds]

I'm building an arcane melee character who will be needing intelligence and strength, no LA. I've been imagining them as some sort of Elf although I can't find what I'm looking for. Hopefully +2 on each, although a +3 or +4 on intelligence and no negative to strength wouldn't be bad. I've taken a look through a couple pages and will keep researching, but if someone has some suggestions I'd love to hear :)

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1078216
http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/9678117696/every-playable-race-in-3-5-d-d-without-a-level

Edit: Medium size would be preferred as well.

[TiaC]

According to the Master +0 LA Race List (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281), none exists.

[Gildedragon]

If you don't mind possibly v. stupid shennanigans

Incarnate-Construct Primordial-Half Ogre (or minotaur) Deep Wild Warforged-Scout
for:

+2 int and +2 str in the stats you're asking

and LA +0, and Medium Sized

other stats:

Con +2
Wis -2

Not much else is got. +2 cha can be got by dumping wis another two with the spark template. must be added before the incarnate construct one
if you accept Large then you can get
+4 int and +6 str with the same mix, except with standard Warforged

[Warlocknthewind]

Sharakim are from Races of Destinty, and do NOT deserve their LA. Talk so your DM about hand waving the poor civilized Orc's LA, and you have the perfect set up.

[TiaC]

If you don't mind possibly v. stupid shennanigans

Incarnate-Construct Primordial-Half Ogre (or minotaur) Deep Wild Warforged-Scout
for:

+2 int and +2 str in the stats you're asking

and LA +0, and Medium Sized

other stats:

Con +2
Wis -2

Not much else is got. +2 cha can be got by dumping wis another two with the spark template. must be added before the incarnate construct one
if you accept Large then you can get
+4 int and +6 str with the same mix, except with standard Warforged

You are applying inherited templates after acquired ones here.

[AnonymousPepper]

I can give you the next best thing. Aleithian Dwarves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a), a psionic race from 3.0, have +2INT +2CON -4CHA plus some good psi-likes that translate perfectly well to 3.5, and it's LA0.

While it may not be +STR, +CON is still just about as good in a brawler, and you still get your +INT, for a penalty to a dump stat.

They are light sensitive, but that can be dealt with with a pair of 10gp sundark goggles.

[RegalKain]

So... I guess it might be a bit cheesy, but here is something that may work for you.

Start as a Krynn Minotaur (Dragonlance Campaign Setting Pg. 42) Stat mods- +4 Str -2 Dex -2 Int -2 Charisma, Inherit Proto-Creature (Bestiary of Krynn Revised, Pg.80-81) Stat mods- +4 Str +2 Con -2 Int -4 Cha. Apply the acquired Dustform creature template (Sandstorm Pg 161-162) Stat mods- +4Str -2Dex Con - Int -, Apply the Incarnate Construct template (Savage Species Pg 120-121) Stat mods- Any ability score lower then 3, is increased to 3, non abilities such as Con and Int are rolled 4d6 drop the lowest. What does this leave you with?

Your stats will be modified as such- +12 Str -4 Dex -6 Cha the Con and Int modifiers don't matter, because you lose them in Dustform, and re-roll them in Incarnate, so you assume flat 10s across the board, your stats will be as this.
Str= 10+12=22
Dex= 10-4=6
Con= - (Roll 4d6 drop the lowest) (Before Dustform you have a +2 Modifier)
Int= - (Roll 4d6 drop the lowest) (Before Dustform you have a -4 modifier)
Wis= 10
Cha= 10-6=4

Dustform to Incarnate causes you to lose all Special Attacks and Special Qualities of your other races/templates, the only thing you retain is Feats and Skill bonuses and some Natural Armor. Which are as follows.

Krynn Minotaur- NA 2 +2 Intimidate, Swim and Use Rope, Languages Common, Kothian.

Proto-Creature- NA 3

Dustform Creature- +8 Hide checks made in a sandy or dusty environment.

Incarnate Construct- Only allows you to keep 3 NA because you're a Medium creature, your land speed is 30 feet (Medium) You lose all Special Attacks, and Special Qualities (This is good as Proto Creature has some nasty side effects in it's Spec Qs) etc, it doesn't affect feats you already have, or skills you already have though.

There you're a Level 1 with no LA. Your Str is through the roof, and you get to re-roll your INT and CON despite the negatives, you also get a touch of NA to go with it all, if you are doing point-buy and want to be really cheesy, set your int to a 7 (With the -4 you're now at a 3 Int) set your Con to 3 (With modifier you're at a 5) once you go Dustform/Incarnate you lose them both anyway and have to re-roll, so you can squeeze out more points to pump Cha or Dex which will both suffer quite a bit doing this. Then you just pray you roll well. :)

Edit: Did a few point-buy stat blocks to give you an idea of what you can manage. With a 25 Point buy-

Str= 18+12 (30)
Dex= 14-4 (10)
Con= 3+2 (5) DFC= - Incarnate Construct= 4d6DL
Int= 7-4 (3) DFC= - Incarnate Construct= 4d6DL
Wis= 11
Cha= 14-6 (8)

With a 32 Point buy-

Str= 18+12 (30)
Dex= 14-4 (10)
Con= 3+2 (5) DFC= - Incarnate Construct= 4d6DL
Int= 7-4 (3) DFC= - Incarnate Construct= 4d6DL
Wis= 14
Cha= 16-6 (10)

[TiaC]

There you're a Level 1 with no LA. Your Str is through the roof, and you get to re-roll your INT and CON despite the negatives, you also get a touch of NA to go with it all, if you are doing point-buy and want to be really cheesy, set your int to a 7 (With the -4 you're now at a 3 Int) set your Con to 3 (With modifier you're at a 5) once you go Dustform/Incarnate you lose them both anyway and have to re-roll, so you can squeeze out more points to pump Cha or Dex which will both suffer quite a bit doing this. Then you just pray you roll well. :)
Get the Incarnate Construct Maximized and you have base 18 in both.

[RegalKain]

Get the Incarnate Construct Maximized and you have base 18 in both.


Hmmm, I'm not very good with Metamagic tricks, I don't know if it'd work like that, since the spell Incarnate Construct has no variable in and of itself being cast, it is the post-process of the spell that causes a re-roll, that's a very good question though, does Maximize give you auto 18s? If so that's insane! :)

[Curmudgeon]

Get the Incarnate Construct Maximized and you have base 18 in both.
Incarnate Construct merely applies the Incarnate Construct template; the spell has no variable, numeric effects. Applying the template (the consequence of the spell) involves rolling, but not the spell itself.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized.

[Vaz]

You cannot maximise it. It's not Awaken, where the roll is explicitly part of the spell, the roll is part of the template which is granted by the spell.

If you're going to that trouble to get your stats with +Int and Str, just say that it's a around a 1/218 chance of getting 18 in the stat, so you've got +436 strength with it as well.

The Maximise trick refers to Awaken, RegalKain, which grants you the ability to roll the maximum possible dice result. A similar trick works for Reincarnate, which allows you to keep your mental scores, but choose a form with high mentals, and then pay for a maximise Reincarnate, and choose a relevant form. This can chain as well.

Venerable Grey Elf, 23 Intelligence, 3 Strength. Tops himself, gets Reincarnated as a young adult anything, maximise it, and you can choose what you want to be reincarnated as. Either, rinse and repeat until you get your arbitrary high mental scores, OR, just select the form of a Gnoll. It loses 1HD, so instead of being a 2HD+1LA creature, it becomes 1HD+1LA creature. Buy off the LA, and you're golden.

[RegalKain]

Incarnate Construct merely applies the Incarnate Construct template; the spell has no variable, numeric effects. Applying the template (the consequence of the spell) involves rolling, but not the spell itself.

I figured that was the case. Ahhh well.


You cannot maximise it. It's not Awaken, where the roll is explicitly part of the spell, the roll is part of the template which is granted by the spell.

If you're going to that trouble to get your stats with +Int and Str, just say that it's a around a 1/218 chance of getting 18 in the stat, so you've got +436 strength with it as well.

The Maximise trick refers to Awaken, RegalKain, which grants you the ability to roll the maximum possible dice result. A similar trick works for Reincarnate, which allows you to keep your mental scores, but choose a form with high mentals, and then pay for a maximise Reincarnate, and choose a relevant form. This can chain as well.

Venerable Grey Elf, 23 Intelligence, 3 Strength. Tops himself, gets Reincarnated as a young adult anything, maximise it, and you can choose what you want to be reincarnated as. Either, rinse and repeat until you get your arbitrary high mental scores, OR, just select the form of a Gnoll. It loses 1HD, so instead of being a 2HD+1LA creature, it becomes 1HD+1LA creature. Buy off the LA, and you're golden.

That is an interesting bit of cheese and optimization to know about! I wouldn't use it in a real-game, but it's certaintly interesting for Theory Crafting, much like silly template stacking.

[Khedrac]

Consider also Illumian. Although they are +0 to both, iirc there's a pair of symbols which will allow you to use your strength modifier as your casting stat at which point you only need Int at 1st level and for spell level cap. This would enable you to accept a much lower int when starting thus negating the need for high bonuses.

[Kudaku]

"Smart bruiser" has very few race options. Which is odd when you consider how many +dex/+cha or +dex/+int races there are.

[Gildedragon]

You are applying inherited templates after acquired ones here.

Nope. They go from right to left: first warforged, then deep and wild, then half x, then primordial, then incarnate construct at the very end.
That is why I say one gains nothing much else from it; because IC removes most other things

[Bugworlds]

If you don't mind possibly v. stupid shennanigans

Incarnate-Construct Primordial-Half Ogre (or minotaur) Deep Wild Warforged-Scout
for:

+2 int and +2 str in the stats you're asking

and LA +0, and Medium Sized

other stats:

Con +2
Wis -2

Not much else is got. +2 cha can be got by dumping wis another two with the spark template. must be added before the incarnate construct one
if you accept Large then you can get
+4 int and +6 str with the same mix, except with standard Warforged

Shenanigans can be fun >=] I'm short on time (as I tend to be when I check my posts...) But I must say I'm impressed with this. At a glance it's my favorite option.


Sharakim are from Races of Destinty, and do NOT deserve their LA. Talk so your DM about hand waving the poor civilized Orc's LA, and you have the perfect set up.

When looking through orcs I was disappointed to notice stupid was a species feature as far as inherited ability bonuses went. A race of destiny would fit my build well.


I can give you the next best thing. Aleithian Dwarves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a), a psionic race from 3.0, have +2INT +2CON -4CHA plus some good psi-likes that translate perfectly well to 3.5, and it's LA0.

While it may not be +STR, +CON is still just about as good in a brawler, and you still get your +INT, for a penalty to a dump stat.

They are light sensitive, but that can be dealt with with a pair of 10gp sundark goggles.

I'm keeping away from psions and psionic features because if I have the option there I'll want to find room for optimizing, and I'm squeezed dry enough already :p but I'll certainly look into this and if it's super apealing maybe my DM will let me sell off the psionics for +1 str. An individual from a psionic race who lacked the psionic abilities but wanted to keep up would certainly try to keep buff; right?


So... I guess it might be a bit cheesy, but here is something that may work for you.

Start as a Krynn Minotaur (Dragonlance Campaign Setting Pg. 42) Stat mods- +4 Str -2 Dex -2 Int -2 Charisma, Inherit Proto-Creature (Bestiary of Krynn Revised, Pg.80-81) Stat mods- +4 Str +2 Con -2 Int -4 Cha. Apply the acquired Dustform creature template (Sandstorm Pg 161-162) Stat mods- +4Str -2Dex Con - Int -, Apply the Incarnate Construct template (Savage Species Pg 120-121) Stat mods- Any ability score lower then 3, is increased to 3, non abilities such as Con and Int are rolled 4d6 drop the lowest. What does this leave you with?

...

Dustform to Incarnate causes you to lose all Special Attacks and Special Qualities of your other races/templates, the only thing you retain is Feats and Skill bonuses and some Natu

There you're a Level 1 with no LA. Your Str is through the roof, and you get to re-roll your INT and CON despite the negatives, you also get a touch of NA to go with it all, if you are doing point-buy and want to be really cheesy, set your int to a 7 (With the -4 you're now at a 3 Int) set your Con to 3 (With modifier you're at a 5) once you go Dustform/Incarnate you lose them both anyway and have to re-roll, so you can squeeze out more points to pump Cha or Dex which will both suffer quite a bit doing this. Then you just pray you roll well. :)

...

O__o awesome. A bit too cheesy for my liking but then again I'm optimizing a bit more than I tend to. I will certainly look up all of this because if I don't use some of this information now I know I will use it some other time. Incarnate constructs sound to be right in my preferences, but a simpler use of them such as the first suggestion I quoted fits my fancy better.

But seriously, this is awesome.

[TiaC]

You could play an Old Shalarin Dragonborn for +3 Str, +1 Dex, +1 Con, +1 Int, +1 Wis, +1 Cha. You would only have a limited fly speed and a swim speed though.


Nope. They go from right to left: first warforged, then deep and wild, then half x, then primordial, then incarnate construct at the very end.
That is why I say one gains nothing much else from it; because IC removes most other things

I'm rather curious as to how you are applying half x to a construct?

[Gildedragon]

I'm rather curious as to how you are applying half x to a construct?

By pouring bits of ogre/minotaur into the creation forge?
But yeah I just noticed it dun work, not allows for constructs
so MK2 is here

Special ingredient: Drowsludge

Incarnate Lolth-Touched Deep Warforged
+2 int +4 str +8 con -2 wis -2 cha