Summoning: Clerics vs Druids

[Kaeso]

Generally, druids are considered to be the kings of summoning. They're considered to be at least on par with wizards in this regard, if not better. The saying "bear riding a bear while summoning bears" has pretty much become a meme on this forum. Even the Summoner's handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11186) gives cleric a lower rating than either the Druid or Wizard. However, isn't the druid severely underappreciated in terms of summoning ability?

First of all, it seems that the druids ability to summon spontaneously gives him the edge in the field of summoning. However, clerics can also learn to summon spontaneously quite easily. If I'm not mistaken, there are multiple ways to give clerics spontaneous domains, and clerics have the summoning domain.

Furthermore, the fact that Clerics use Summon Monster rather than Summon Nature's Ally gives them acces to a lot of goodies that Druids miss out on. The most obvious being the Malconvoker class. It not only gives you practically free extend spell from level one, but also buffs up your (evil) summons by quite a lot.

Finally, the Cleric gets multiple alternatives to summon monster, while ther Druid gets as good as none to summon nature's ally. Think of raise undead, planar ally and turn/rebuke undead (which can be expanded to include elementals with certain domains). They even get access to a handy elemental summoning reserve feat.

So, with all these nifty goodies, why are clerics so underestimated in the field of summoning compared to druids?

[eggynack]

The issue here is that you're running the wrong comparison. If you're considering a cleric as your summoner of choice, then the alternative isn't the druid. What you really should be asking is how clerics compare to wizards, because they run the same summoning spells, similar varieties of minionmancy, and similar optimization tactics. And the wizard does it better. Wizards get planar binding instead of planar ally, rapid summoning instead of your odd spontaneous summoning plan (it's not a very good one, as it necessitates taking what is essentially a blank domain, and it doesn't even get all SM's), and general wizard awesomeness as opposed to marginally lesser cleric awesomeness.

As for why druids are often considered great summoners, the reason you're finding fault in druid tactics is because you're comparing apples and oranges. Summon nature's ally is all about massive beat sticks, and having access to them on a constant basis. Simultaneously, druids get access to some pretty cool tricks that can't be accessed, or can't be accessed very well, by the other two classes, like the ring of the beast, greenbound/rashemi elemental summoning, oreads at SNA VI, and general shifter goodness. It's a lot of stuff. Wizards don't make worse summoners than druids do, but neither do they make better summoners. What they do make is different summoners, pushed more towards utility SLA's than massive fists of doom. Clerics just get left behind in the wake of this mighty battle, having the same different rather than better or worse relationship with druids, and having a crappy relationship with wizards.

[geekintheground]

what eggynack said, adding: its also easier (i think) for druids to buff their summons and not get yelled at for not buffing the party since some of the druids best buffs are animal only (or personal).

[Chronos]

Druid pros:
* Can summon spontaneously for free, without needing to spend any build resources on it.
* Almost all summons are neutral, and so available to casters of any alignment.
* Get better beatsticks, or get the same ones earlier (for instance, SNA gets elementals at 2, while SM gets them at 3).
* Has access to some tricks for buffing summons that other classes don't.

Cleric pros:
* Has access to more creatures with useful SLAs.
* Almost all summons have an Int of 3 or higher and know a language, so you can direct them more easily.
* Also have calling spells.

Wizards are mostly like clerics, except that on the upside, they can summon off-alignment occasionally as long as they don't do it too much, and on the downside, the class is a much worse chassis (poor Fort save, low HP, no armor) if you're going to be casting the same spells as clerics anyways.

[Rebel7284]

Druids can use Summon Nature's Ally I at first level to cast a 5th level spell. ;)

[Darrin]

Clerics have access to the SNA combat forms via conjure ice beast. The healbots have the treehuggers beat when it comes to the planar ally spells, as this unlocks a lot of SLA abuse or "infinite wishes" combos. Druids don't really have access to these kinds of shenanigans until they get shapechange at ECL 17.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd say that either a wizard or a cleric focused on summoning should go into Malconvoker. The cleric, though, should do a one-level dip into the UA variant Conjurer wizard for Rapid S, Augmented S, and Spontaneous S.

Then you've got [Cleric 5][Conjurer 1][Malconvoker 9][whatever adds to the awesome 5].

The wizard gets there one level faster because they don't have to dip; the cleric gets 5 levels of [good Fort save, D8 HD, and 3/4 BAB]. And then your Malconvoker levels are progressing cleric, not wizard, which is widely regarded as not-as-good a spell list. Because you're progressing cleric, though, you'll get planar ally (from cleric) AND planar binding (from Malconvoker), which means you can summon almost anything you need.

[Augment Tab]

I'd say that either a wizard or a cleric focused on summoning should go into Malconvoker. The cleric, though, should do a one-level dip into the UA variant Conjurer wizard for Rapid S, Augmented S, and Spontaneous S.

Then you've got [Cleric 5][Conjurer 1][Malconvoker 9][whatever adds to the awesome 5].

The wizard gets there one level faster because they don't have to dip; the cleric gets 5 levels of [good Fort save, D8 HD, and 3/4 BAB]. And then your Malconvoker levels are progressing cleric, not wizard, which is widely regarded as not-as-good a spell list. Because you're progressing cleric, though, you'll get planar ally (from cleric) AND planar binding (from Malconvoker), which means you can summon almost anything you need.

If you're not interested in doing any planar binding nonsense, the last four or so levels of Malconvoker can be safely skipped, giving you nine levels to play with rather than five. Paragnostic Apostle gives your summoned creatures fast healing by level four, I think, and Sacred Exorcist gives you a bunch of bonuses to checks and saves against evil outsiders that can help you convince your bad guy buddies to play nice - with you, that is. It's also really easy to qualify for. Thaumaturgist isn't too bad, either, but I personally wouldn't bother.

Ruathar is good, too, as a 3-level full casting class. Can help fill out the last few levels if you have no earthly idea of what to finish with. Its actual abilities aren't fantastic, but are flavorful enough if you're elf-friendly.

[Chronos]

What's the point of fast healing on a summon, though? It's nice on the fighter who's going to be around for the next battle, and the one after that, and so on, but on a summon that's only going to last long enough for one fight anyway, the amount healed will probably be negligible.

[Shining Wrath]

What's the point of fast healing on a summon, though? It's nice on the fighter who's going to be around for the next battle, and the one after that, and so on, but on a summon that's only going to last long enough for one fight anyway, the amount healed will probably be negligible.

What are you fighting? If you want something to hold off the Tarrasque while the wizard gets the Wish ready and the uber-charger maneuvers into charge position, the ability to keep on fighting after taking Ginormous Damage might be useful.

[Ansem]

Archivist/Malconvoker, 'nuff said.

[ryu]

What are you fighting? If you want something to hold off the Tarrasque while the wizard gets the Wish ready and the uber-charger maneuvers into charge position, the ability to keep on fighting after taking Ginormous Damage might be useful.

The kind of tables that allow actual uber-chargers have long since assumed that anything successfully hit is dead. This is why healing is such a poor option. Assuming the enemy hits light enough to not one-shot most of the party is a luxury at that level of OP.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What are you fighting? If you want something to hold off the Tarrasque while the wizard gets the Wish ready and the uber-charger maneuvers into charge position, the ability to keep on fighting after taking Ginormous Damage might be useful.
Fast healing is going to be pretty useless for that, though. A handful of points a round is, like, half an attack, even at low levels.

[eggynack]

Yeah, that fast healing probably isn't going to help much. You're really talking about a few points of healing at best, and even if your monster friend doesn't instantly die, the points aren't going to make much difference. However, I don't think fast healing is necessarily worthless in all cases. Greenbound summoning, for example, provides fast healing that I think actually proves useful. It's not a lot of healing, but it comes paired up with a lot of other abilities that increase longevity, like DR, cold and electricity resistance, massively increased AC, and somewhat increased HP.

You can also pair that up with something like a ring of mighty summons, for obvious reasons, ashbound, to make that longevity matter, and/or augment summoning. Fast healing is a somewhat problematic ability on a one combat monster, as it's a defense that requires the creature to have enough other defenses to live long enough that it matters, but I think the greenbound summons can manage it. It also helps that greenbound summons are naturally inclined towards grappling, which is an attrition style of warfare that fast healing suits quite well.

[Pluto!]

Cleric summoners are awesome. They make me want to use DMM for actually reasonable things like Rapid spell, and they make boring numerical party buffs very effective.

The biggest reason I don't think they're the best summoners is the alignment restriction on their spellcasting. Versatility is a big part of summons' power, and compromising that versatility just hurts.

[eggynack]

The biggest reason I don't think they're the best summoners is the alignment restriction on their spellcasting. Versatility is a big part of summons' power, and compromising that versatility just hurts.
Well, you can always just run a cleric that's neutral on the good/evil axis, which is a good idea for other reasons as well. You do technically lose some summoning versatility by picking one side as a druid as well, though a lot less. I mean, evil loses unicorns, and those are great, but evil was pretty weak to start with. Good loses less, but noble salamanders and fetid fungus are pretty nifty.

[Necroticplague]

A bonus in the druid's favor is that their are quite a few feats that improve their summoning. Greenbound, ashbound,rashami elemental.