1 level of barbarian - can I make rage useful?

[WarKitty]

Yes, I'm looking to sooner or later pick up the coveted pounce. Rage, however, is entirely useless on the bard-based gish that I'm playing. I'm a dex based build with not terribly great constitution, and I really do need to retain my spellcasting abilities in combat. Is there anything I can swap out rage for that would be more useful on my character?

[John Longarrow]

As a thought on rage, I've had a character that used Rage only as a "Get out of jail" card. He'd Rage when he was hurt bad enough that he had to RUN AWAY, normally also grabbing another character that had been dropped in the process. If you view it as a quick buff that gives HP and helps you move faster (increased carrying capacity) it actually work very well, especially on non-STR and lower CON based builds.

I viewed it as "Oh CRAP, RUN!!!" rather that "HULK SMASH" for my character. Would this fit with your character?

As to trading out rage, I'm at work so I don't have access to my books and my home connection is out right now.

[WarKitty]

As a thought on rage, I've had a character that used Rage only as a "Get out of jail" card. He'd Rage when he was hurt bad enough that he had to RUN AWAY, normally also grabbing another character that had been dropped in the process. If you view it as a quick buff that gives HP and helps you move faster (increased carrying capacity) it actually work very well, especially on non-STR and lower CON based builds.

I viewed it as "Oh CRAP, RUN!!!" rather that "HULK SMASH" for my character. Would this fit with your character?

As to trading out rage, I'm at work so I don't have access to my books and my home connection is out right now.

I feel like on a bard I have better "run away" options than that. Ghost sound + bluff has been a well-used one, for example.

[ShurikVch]

Crafty Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian) ACF

[John Longarrow]

WarKitty,
but bluff + Ghost sound does not give you that Rincewind feel as you tear out in blatant terror!
Yes, Rincewind may be a wizard but he's definitely got RAGE as a class feature.

Of course if your bard always plays it cool when things go south I can see Rage not being appropriate. So are you looking at taking a dip in Barbarian or have you done so already? And besides rage what are you looking to get from the class?

[WarKitty]

WarKitty,
but bluff + Ghost sound does not give you that Rincewind feel as you tear out in blatant terror!
Yes, Rincewind may be a wizard but he's definitely got RAGE as a class feature.

Of course if your bard always plays it cool when things go south I can see Rage not being appropriate. So are you looking at taking a dip in Barbarian or have you done so already? And besides rage what are you looking to get from the class?

I'm pretty much entirely looking to pick up pounce from the spirit lion totem ACF. I have all the weapon and armor proficiencies already from a fighter dip. The extra HP might not be too bad but it's really just that I want pounce.

[HammeredWharf]

You could also be a Druidic Avenger and take the Snow Tiger Berserker feat from unapproachable East. I have no idea how useful it would be, but hey, options.

[John Longarrow]

IIRC, you can grab Pounce as a maneuver if you dip Warblade.
Same HP, no fast move, but maneuvers....

[Nerd-o-rama]

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm) might be a good bet for you as it basically gets you some bonus damage, AC, and flurry. It actually synergizes really well with a Pounce charge since the AC bonus from WF negates the penalty from charging and the attack bonus from charging negates the attack penalty for making the extra attack (which you get to make because you have Pounce), so basically the net effect is just more damage at no cost (except for being fatigued in a couple rounds).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Pouncing Charge is a 5th level maneuver, you'd need at least 16 non-initiator levels to pick it up with a level 1 dip.

Depending on how permissive your DM is taking Righteous Wraith might allow you to keep spellcasting, but it is an [Exalted] feat which may or may not fit your character.

[WarKitty]

Pouncing Charge is a 5th level maneuver, you'd need at least 16 non-initiator levels to pick it up with a level 1 dip.

Depending on how permissive your DM is taking Righteous Wraith might allow you to keep spellcasting, but it is an [Exalted] feat which may or may not fit your character.

It would fit well enough but I'm reluctant to give up feats on the build I have. I've got a dex-based twf crit build, feats are not easy to come by (actually I've been thinking I might have to give up the crit part).

[Kaeso]

Pouncing Charge is a 5th level maneuver, you'd need at least 16 non-initiator levels to pick it up with a level 1 dip.

Depending on how permissive your DM is taking Righteous Wraith might allow you to keep spellcasting, but it is an [Exalted] feat which may or may not fit your character.

Sudden leap is a 1st level maneuver. It may not be "pounce" but it moves you quite a bit forward (depending on your jump ranks) without expending a move action, allowing you to full attack. It's de facto pounce.

[John Longarrow]

WarKitty,
Care to share your build so far?

[WarKitty]

Sudden leap is a 1st level maneuver. It may not be "pounce" but it moves you quite a bit forward (depending on your jump ranks) without expending a move action, allowing you to full attack. It's de facto pounce.

Interesting. Might be an interesting blend with bard.


WarKitty,
Care to share your build so far?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=840950

Edit: The more I look at it the more a quick dip in swordsage looks like it might not be bad. Shadow blade feat, sudden leap, and there's a couple of things in there that look decent for a dex melee without screwing up my bardic abilities. Would need to switch out weapons and give up on my crit build, but that's doable.

[John Longarrow]

Unfortunately our server here at work blocks myth-weavers... :furious:

[WarKitty]

Unfortunately our server here at work blocks myth-weavers... :furious:

Well here's the relevant bits:

Silverbrow Human, Savage bard 2/hit-and-run fighter 1

Str:8
Dex: 16
Con: 11
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Feats: DFI, TWF, Battle Caster, Weapon Finesse

[Kaeso]

Interesting. Might be an interesting blend with bard.



http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=840950

Edit: The more I look at it the more a quick dip in swordsage looks like it might not be bad. Shadow blade feat, sudden leap, and there's a couple of things in there that look decent for a dex melee without screwing up my bardic abilities. Would need to switch out weapons and give up on my crit build, but that's doable.

Give up on your crit build? Isn't dual wielding kukri's + blood in the water stance a staple of crit builds? It rewards you for every consecutive crit you get.

[WarKitty]

Give up on your crit build? Isn't dual wielding kukri's + blood in the water stance a staple of crit builds? It rewards you for every consecutive crit you get.

I'll probably get better use out of shadow blade though, which doesn't work with kukris. And a few free feats for things like lingering song and other bardic boosters would be nice. I'm not just a melee character - I'm a primary healer and a caster.

[John Longarrow]

WarKitty,
Will you be the primary healer at mid levels to? As is it looks like your trying to fulfill front line fighter, party buffer, and party healer all at once.

Depending on what you need to be able to do around lvl 7-9 will flavor what advice I can give.

[WarKitty]

WarKitty,
Will you be the primary healer at mid levels to? As is it looks like your trying to fulfill front line fighter, party buffer, and party healer all at once.

Depending on what you need to be able to do around lvl 7-9 will flavor what advice I can give.

My roles are, in order: Party buffer/caster, miscellaneous skill-monkey, party healer, front-line fighter. Keep in mind we're low on front-line characters, so while I don't need to do a huge amount of damage, I do need to be at the front of the party. But I'm sort of the character who isn't super-great at any one thing but useful no matter what you want to do. We technically have a healer but she tends to not show reliably. Still, I figure on UMD'ing my way through most healing rather than doing it myself.

[Kaeso]

My roles are, in order: Party buffer/caster, miscellaneous skill-monkey, party healer, front-line fighter. Keep in mind we're low on front-line characters, so while I don't need to do a huge amount of damage, I do need to be at the front of the party. But I'm sort of the character who isn't super-great at any one thing but useful no matter what you want to do. We technically have a healer but she tends to not show reliably. Still, I figure on UMD'ing my way through most healing rather than doing it myself.

For that, a one level dip sounds safe enough. Perhaps it might be smart to delay that dip a few levels. As you probably know, for the sake of dips every two non-initiator levels count as one initiator level. A higher level dip means you can access higher level stances and manouvers. If you're just in it for sudden leap and a few extra goodies, a first level dip might be viable as well.

That should set you straight in terms of front line capabilities. Buffing, casting and moderate healing is something a bard can do well straight out of the box. As for skill monkeying, have you considered the bardic knack + jack of all trades combo? It pretty much gives you a +[half your bard level] bonus on all skills you don't have ranks in. So when something obscure like use rope or decipher script is needed, your character will at least sort of know what he or she is doing.

[WarKitty]

For that, a one level dip sounds safe enough. Perhaps it might be smart to delay that dip a few levels. As you probably know, for the sake of dips every two non-initiator levels count as one initiator level. A higher level dip means you can access higher level stances and manouvers. If you're just in it for sudden leap and a few extra goodies, a first level dip might be viable as well.

That should set you straight in terms of front line capabilities. Buffing, casting and moderate healing is something a bard can do well straight out of the box. As for skill monkeying, have you considered the bardic knack + jack of all trades combo? It pretty much gives you a +[your level] bonus on all skills you don't have ranks in. So when something obscure like use rope or decipher script is needed, your character will at least sort of know what he or she is doing.

Eh, we have a DM that actually seriously enforces knowledge checks and no metagaming. Pretty sure I've saved us some serious hurt a few times by rolling knowledge (what am I looking at), and coming up with things like "that's a gelatinous cube, shoot it and stay out of the way." Or "the symbol this guy has is associated with the cult of the dragon below, which has dealings with demons." And it just saves us a lot of OOC time by not having to figure out what knowledge I need this time.

[13ones]

If you're allowed to splice thing in from other materials/publishers/games, then let me introduce you to something from Pathfinder. The Urban Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/urban-barbarian)

Now it's an okay Alternate to basic Barbarians but the thing you're looking for is this. "Controlled Rage"

Controlled Rage:

When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage.

You can actually cast spell while in a rage. Let that sink in for a second. You can CAST while raging. I played with a fellow this year who took 1/Urban Barbarian and 19/Scarred Witch Doctor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/scarred-witch-doctor-witch-orc) which is a Con based , full arcane debuffing class. When raging he had the most health in the game and was still able to be a full caster.

If your GM allows this, this is your best bet for pounce that will still function with a Bard.

[Seerow]

Dex based melee build looking for a way to make Rage useful and not one person suggests the Ferocity Variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)?

Doesn't solve the "No casting while raging" issue, but it does make the rage significantly more useful to you in situations where you are willing to give up the casting.

[Darrin]

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm) might be a good bet for you as it basically gets you some bonus damage, AC, and flurry.

Seconding Whirling Frenzy. Ferocity from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) would also be pretty nifty on a Dex-focused build.

[John Longarrow]

At level 6 I'd suggest dipping sword sage for Shadow Hand (when you get a feat anyway) plus your initiator level will be 3 so you can grab 2nd level maneuvers.

Until then, rage to offset your lower strength can be useful, though it sounds like you are much more interested in keeping up with using skills.
Dipping to get Sudden Leap may be what you need. Otherwise you can still go Barbarian and skip raging unless you really really need the strength boost.

Since I don't have my books here and most of the good sites are blocked I can't come up with a good ACF to trade off rage.

Isn't there a Ranger variant that gets pounce though?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sadly no, one thing that some of my DM's have allowed in the past is chaining ACF, allowing a Wilshape ranger to trade their Fast Movement (which specifically mentions "As Barbarian) for Spirit Lion Totem.

[darkbuu_1]

There's also Horse Lord which offers Battle Ecstasy in place of Rage, from Dragon magazine 338. It's another +4 Dexterity, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, but it also gives +1 DR and you can still use any skills or feats, most checks will be at -2. Other than that and some horse related skill it's the same as Barbarian.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes, I'm looking to sooner or later pick up the coveted pounce. Rage, however, is entirely useless on the bard-based gish that I'm playing. I'm a dex based build with not terribly great constitution, and I really do need to retain my spellcasting abilities in combat. Is there anything I can swap out rage for that would be more useful on my character?

As a Bard, the character will only ever get 3 attacks, and even then they're going to lag behind the Full BAB classes by 2 levels (6th vs 8th for that second attack) and 4 levels (11th vs 15th for that third attack). Pounce is just less useful for an average BAB class, it's just not worth ditching a level of Bard purely for the sake of pounce.

If this is your 4th level (Silverbrow Human, Savage bard 2/hit-and-run fighter 1) then pounce is at best getting you an extra attack which has a negative strength mod associated with it. (yay? Side question: Since off-hand attacks add 1/2 str mod, does that mean the offhand attack actually does MORE damage for someone with a negative modifier?...Dysfunction?)

Conversely, picking up that 3rd level of bard will net you an extra point of BAB (equal to the Barbarian level), +1 reflex (savage swaps reflex and fort), the ability to inspire your teammates (i.e. auto-assist), and the ability to cast 1st level spells. Also, more skill points.

Considering the primary change between regular Bard and the Savage Bard variant is the different spells, it would be good to actually start getting access to those spells.

[WarKitty]

As a Bard, the character will only ever get 3 attacks, and even then they're going to lag behind the Full BAB classes by 2 levels (6th vs 8th for that second attack) and 4 levels (11th vs 15th for that third attack). Pounce is just less useful for an average BAB class, it's just not worth ditching a level of Bard purely for the sake of pounce.

If this is your 4th level (Silverbrow Human, Savage bard 2/hit-and-run fighter 1) then pounce is at best getting you an extra attack which has a negative strength mod associated with it. (yay? Side question: Since off-hand attacks add 1/2 str mod, does that mean the offhand attack actually does MORE damage for someone with a negative modifier?...Dysfunction?)

Conversely, picking up that 3rd level of bard will net you an extra point of BAB (equal to the Barbarian level), +1 reflex (savage swaps reflex and fort), the ability to inspire your teammates (i.e. auto-assist), and the ability to cast 1st level spells. Also, more skill points.

Considering the primary change between regular Bard and the Savage Bard variant is the different spells, it would be good to actually start getting access to those spells.

Level 3 doesn't exactly give me access to any new spells - and a bunch of spells I wasn't using either way wasn't the reason for the change between regular bard and savage bard. I'm working on a way to not take that strength penalty. I would like to be hitting for more than an average of 1.75 damage a turn, since we haven't really needed my spells yet and level 1 still doesn't have many game-changers.

[John Longarrow]

Swapping the pair of Kukri's for short swords will up your damage a bit. This also opens you up for Sword Sage and Shadow Hand at 6th.

Mechanically, I can't think of a good way to get rid of the strength hit outside a good reincarnate spell.